Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

I'm just picturing the amount of high fives and fists pumps after that shoot, while everyone chants USA......USA......USA!

So long as it helps to sell tickets for the game, who cares.

The game is being played in the BBVA Compass stafium in Texas which has a capacity of 22000. Should sell out with ease.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So long as it helps to sell tickets for the game, who cares.

Yeah thats the main thing.

I really hope that the USA field their best players such as Clever, Scott LaValla, Ngywnya, Wyles and Manoa to make a game out of it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So long as it helps to sell tickets for the game, who cares.

Provided the fans know they're being asked to attend a rugby game! If they think it's an invitation to next year's Texas St. Patrick's Day, they might turn up on the wrong day.

Actually, I'm assuming that you're playing the US as Ireland is one of the few countries that most Americans will actually have heard of. Usually because they claim that they're from there because they have a green jumper and once ate a potato.

Is anyone going over? Would be phenomenal craic and, dare I suggest it, a series of open goals with charmed American ladies.

George Carlin wrote:Actually, I'm assuming that you're playing the US as Ireland is one of the few countries that most Americans will actually have heard of. Usually because they claim that they're from there because they have a green jumper and once ate a potato.

Is anyone going over? Would be phenomenal craic and, dare I suggest it, a series of open goals with charmed American ladies.

1 plane ticket to Texas please!

series of open goals with charmed American ladies

Is that some sort of gynacalogical complaint?

I'll be stateside for the summer but its gonna be one hell of a trek from california to Texas so doubt ill get to he match. Plus it's gonna be a bitch watching the lions

Don't call your lady friend a bitch, especially if she's prepared to sit down with you and watch the Lions.

will fitzgerald be back do people know???

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:will fitzgerald be back do people know???

Cruciate knee injury. Not expected back until next season.

I think the players that NEED to start on this tour are: The Munster props, O'Donnell at 7, Henderson in the second row (he is going to end up here in the future, and next season he may not start at 6 for Ulster as originally believed) and Madigan at 10. At 12 I would like to see Luke Marshall start, I still think he deserves to keep the shirt despite many seemingly writing him off already with the emergence of Olding (strange how things can change in a few months).

I would also like to see Zebo back at 15, with Trimble and Gilroy on the wings. Has Henshaw done enough to get the 15 shirt for Ireland on this tour?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think the players that NEED to start on this tour are: The Munster props, O'Donnell at 7, Henderson in the second row (he is going to end up here in the future, and next season he may not start at 6 for Ulster as originally believed) and Madigan at 10. At 12 I would like to see Luke Marshall start, I still think he deserves to keep the shirt despite many seemingly writing him off already with the emergence of Olding (strange how things can change in a few months).

I would also like to see Zebo back at 15, with Trimble and Gilroy on the wings. Has Henshaw done enough to get the 15 shirt for Ireland on this tour?

Marshall is not going.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22432029

Probably the smartest option, I thought it was in 2 consecutive games he was concussed though, and not 3? I was talking to his dad and he said that 3 bad concussions in a season and that could end your entire career. Scary stuff.

I thought he was concussed against France, Italy and Saracens (with some time off between the 6Ns and the HEC)

Yes. He's only played two games since getting concussed against France (Italy and Saracens) and he came off concussed in both so plenty of time off needed.

I think Kilcoyne, Hagan, Henderson (at lock but 6 wouldn't be the end of the world), TOD at 7, Marmion and Madigan are the guys who need the gametime with Ireland most.

Would have loved to have seen Marshall in this, really sucks for him. Would have liked to have seen McSharry too but he is out as well. And Fitz. Rats.

Olding is the better prospect at 12 of the two Ulster lads. Marshalls misfortune is his opportunity.

Notch wrote:Olding is the better prospect at 12 of the two Ulster lads. Marshalls misfortune is his opportunity.

I would consider Marshall a better player than Olding I must say. Some have mentioned him possibly moving to 13 do you think that is a possibility??

I would probably rather Marshall move to 13 than Olding but its close.

Marshall started off well but now shares an affliction which ruins 12s, which is a love of contact. He runs too much himself and is becoming predictable. Hopefully he grows out of it- it would be shame to see a real talent become a crash ball centre. Obviously any 12 needs to do it sometimes but Marshalls first instinct is to take contact now.

Olding uses his footwork, guile and offloading ability to keep the ball alive and off the ground. He seems to possess a natural instinct for this as opposed to Marshall. A natural inclination to find space over contact using footwork and pace.

Olding has more pace and less bulk, but Marshall less of a rugby brain. So there's an argument for both of them to move out to 13. Right now they are both best at 12 and I very much favour Olding over Marshall. I would personally think Olding, as he matures, is more likely to move inside to become a 10 in the mould of Ian Madigan rather than a 13. But right now, we need to replace Paddy Wallace as first choice and Olding is much more that type of player than Marshall.

I think I've seen enough in recent weeks to be hoping that Jackson and Olding is a partnership that becomes very well established for Ulster and possibly Ireland.

Notch wrote:Olding is the better prospect at 12 of the two Ulster lads. Marshalls misfortune is his opportunity.

I completely disagree with this. You seem to have a rather short memory Notch. Not that long ago people were saying the same sort of things about Luke that they are now saying about Stuart. From the very first moment he stepped onto the scene as well.

I think they are both great prospects, and they both are stronger than each other in certain areas of the game. However, the sheer bulk and strength that Luke offered our backline was essential, and it made a telling difference during the 6 nations. Stuart will never be able to offer that kind of option at 12, as he is a rather small player (though punches well above his weight). I would say what Luke needs is better consistency, but in terms of sheer talent, he is up there with the best in Ireland. They are both very skilful young players, and we are very lucky to have them both for the future.

Yeah I was saying them. I'm a massive fan of both players and have been talking about Marshall since he broke through.

It just so happens that Olding is a more intelligent rugby player who is better at finding space than Luke Marshall. Marshall started off well but has started to favour the crash ball too much. If he can get his hands free and we get people running off him, all well and good.

A lot of people seem to think that to praise one player is to denigrate another. I find it very ironic that I could be accused of underrating Luke Marshall- I've been talking about him as a future Ireland 12 since he was 18!

Notch wrote:I would probably rather Marshall move to 13 than Olding but its close.

Marshall started off well but now shares an affliction which ruins 12s, which is a love of contact. He runs too much himself and is becoming predictable. Hopefully he grows out of it- it would be shame to see a real talent become a crash ball centre. Obviously any 12 needs to do it sometimes but Marshalls first instinct is to take contact now.

Olding uses his footwork, guile and offloading ability to keep the ball alive and off the ground. He seems to possess a natural instinct for this as opposed to Marshall. A natural inclination to find space over contact using footwork and pace.

Olding has more pace and less bulk, but Marshall less of a rugby brain. So there's an argument for both of them to move out to 13. Right now they are both best at 12 and I very much favour Olding over Marshall. I would personally think Olding, as he matures, is more likely to move inside to become a 10 in the mould of Ian Madigan rather than a 13. But right now, we need to replace Paddy Wallace as first choice and Olding is much more that type of player than Marshall.

I think I've seen enough in recent weeks to be hoping that Jackson and Olding is a partnership that becomes very well established for Ulster and possibly Ireland.

I remember the exact same things being said about Marshall during his emergence in the Ulster squad. Like you said Marshall can run the mistake of being predictable but we know what a skilful player he is and I reckon we will see a whole lot more of that side of his play in the future.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:I would probably rather Marshall move to 13 than Olding but its close.

Marshall started off well but now shares an affliction which ruins 12s, which is a love of contact. He runs too much himself and is becoming predictable. Hopefully he grows out of it- it would be shame to see a real talent become a crash ball centre. Obviously any 12 needs to do it sometimes but Marshalls first instinct is to take contact now.

Olding uses his footwork, guile and offloading ability to keep the ball alive and off the ground. He seems to possess a natural instinct for this as opposed to Marshall. A natural inclination to find space over contact using footwork and pace.

Olding has more pace and less bulk, but Marshall less of a rugby brain. So there's an argument for both of them to move out to 13. Right now they are both best at 12 and I very much favour Olding over Marshall. I would personally think Olding, as he matures, is more likely to move inside to become a 10 in the mould of Ian Madigan rather than a 13. But right now, we need to replace Paddy Wallace as first choice and Olding is much more that type of player than Marshall.

I think I've seen enough in recent weeks to be hoping that Jackson and Olding is a partnership that becomes very well established for Ulster and possibly Ireland.

I remember the exact same things being said about Marshall during his emergence in the Ulster squad. Like you said Marshall can run the mistake of being predictable but we know what a skilful player he is and I reckon we will see a whole lot more of that side of his play in the future.

Yup, and he's moved away from that and its to his and our detriment. I remember when D'Arcy got injured before the Scotland game, there was talk of an opening at 12 and Luke Marshall had his worst Ulster game- because that night he ran everything. He took everything on himself in his overeagerness to impress and he made mistakes and ignored overlaps. He'll be fine. He just needs more experience to learn to balance out his game. He's in good company not being in our first XV right now when you consider Gilroy and Henderson are probably not quite yet either.

Whats so impressive about Olding is you so rarely see him make a poor decision at 12, but I guess he has so many playmakers around him it takes off the pressure. Still, he's an amazing talent.

The reason I rate Olding higher is the head game. Just option taking and decision making. Thats it.

Notch wrote:Yeah I was saying them. I'm a massive fan of both players and have been talking about Marshall since he broke through.

It just so happens that Olding is a more intelligent rugby player who is better at finding space than Luke Marshall. Marshall started off well but has started to favour the crash ball too much. If he can get his hands free and we get people running off him, all well and good.

A lot of people seem to think that to praise one player is to denigrate another. I find it very ironic that I could be accused of underrating Luke Marshall- I've been talking about him as a future Ireland 12 since he was 18!

That is why I am confused that you think there is a better prospect already in only a matter of months. You are right that Marshall has fallen into the trap of looking for contact too much, but honestly this is a problem shared by a lot of players in the irish setup, and I truly hope that this is something Schmidt will help us move on from. We know that Luke is also a player who plays very intelligent rugby and is always looking to keep the ball alive, and I believe this is something we will see more from him (and others) next season.

Fair enough Notch, I just disagree. I am just thankful we have two such fantastic options now for Ulster and Ireland.

I still think Luke Marshall has the potential to be a top class 12, I just think he's going to have to fight tooth and nail with Stuart Olding the whole way if Olding ends up as a 12 full time.

I agree with Notch that Olding has raised the bar, but think he may be better suited to 13 given his slight frame and pace but could see him and Marshall playing either position.

Marshall has had a great season though, his only fault for me is getting too many bangs on the head.

If anyone is under pressure from Olding's emergence its Cave I think. He hasn't had the best season and I could easily see Marshall and Olding line out together if he doesn't find top form. There's still Paddy Wallace knocking around too.

Yeah, the 13 cupboard looks a bit bare after O'Driscoll. This is beyond harsh to Connacht, but I would love to see Ulster sign Eoin Griffin. We are going to need a 13 next season and I would like to see an IQ player signed. I think Griffin has serious potential and we might get to see what he can really do outside the likes of Pienaar, Jackson and Luke/Stuart.

For the development of Connacht however it would not be a good move obviously.

Another important position to look at on this tour (apart from tighthead as usual) is our options at number 8. O'Mahony of course would be a great option here, but other good options to look at would be Jordi Murphy and Eoin Mckeon.

I think 8's been a poor position for us for a while, since Leamy retired really. Our back row generally isn't what it was a few seasons ago so there are opportunities for people to front up.

I'd like to see Ruddock put his hand up, your mucker Henderson apart, there is a dearth of big carriers to fill the void left by Wallace and Ferris.

Exciting times for Ireland,when does Schmidt name his squad?

I agree entirely rodders. I don't think Ruddock will ever be good enough and I can see Jordi Murphy leapfrogging him pretty soon. O'Mahony has always looked very good at 8 however I still would like to see him adding some bulk to his frame. McKeon has also impressed me for Connacht, and he is only 21 I think.

Hendy is some ball carrier to have at our disposal. He will help things there considerably. It will be nice to have a few options instead of just giving O'Brien the ball every other phase.

Yeah I'd say Leinster will be looking at Griffin pretty shortly too

Ruddock is more of a 6 though he hasnt looked as good at 8. Mckeon has impressed me too.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, the 13 cupboard looks a bit bare after O'Driscoll. This is beyond harsh to Connacht, but I would love to see Ulster sign Eoin Griffin. We are going to need a 13 next season and I would like to see an IQ player signed.

Why will you need a 13? You've got Cave, Payne, Bowe Olding or Marshall there plus Farrell will be back all capable of playing there

Golden wrote:Ruddock is more of a 6 though he hasnt looked as good at 8. Mckeon has impressed me too.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, the 13 cupboard looks a bit bare after O'Driscoll. This is beyond harsh to Connacht, but I would love to see Ulster sign Eoin Griffin. We are going to need a 13 next season and I would like to see an IQ player signed.

Why will you need a 13? You've got Cave, Payne, Bowe Olding or Marshall there plus Farrell will be back all capable of playing there

I'd agree with Golden on both these points I gotta say

Out of all of those players, only one is an actual 13. I don't think Bowe is being considered at 13, and I know that Payne will definitely be sticking at 15 next season. I guess one of Marshall, Olding and Farrell will be moved to 13, but they are all primarily 12s at this point. Farrell has played 13 the most of the 3 however, as far as I am aware.

If one of these 3 guys can make the move to 13 then that is good but otherwise we could do with a genuine 13 to challenge Cave. It is the same as saying Leisnter have O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, McFadden, Fitzgerald, Macken and O'Malley as your 13s. However the only real 13s there after O'Driscoll are Macken and O'Malley and they both have some work to do if they want to compete at the highest levels.

Though I still think Fitzgerald is a born 13.

Don't see any need for Ulster to sign a 13.
I agree with Rodders that Olding would make an exceptional outside centre and could put Cave under a lot of pressure.

He will definitely figure in midfield in NA at some stage.

I forgot about Allen for Ulster, he is primarily a 13 as well. Yeah I guess we are alright at 13!

If there was more back 3 cover at Leinster then I could see Fitz playing a lot of 13 when BOD retires

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I agree entirely rodders. I don't think Ruddock will ever be good enough and I can see Jordi Murphy leapfrogging him pretty soon. O'Mahony has always looked very good at 8 however I still would like to see him adding some bulk to his frame. McKeon has also impressed me for Connacht, and he is only 21 I think.

Hendy is some ball carrier to have at our disposal. He will help things there considerably. It will be nice to have a few options instead of just giving O'Brien the ball every other phase.

Ruddock will never be an 8 but he is pushing Locky hard for the starting 6 jersey this season. Ruddock has had easily his best season for Leinster and I've been even calling for him to start at 6 for the last while.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I agree entirely rodders. I don't think Ruddock will ever be good enough and I can see Jordi Murphy leapfrogging him pretty soon. O'Mahony has always looked very good at 8 however I still would like to see him adding some bulk to his frame. McKeon has also impressed me for Connacht, and he is only 21 I think.

Hendy is some ball carrier to have at our disposal. He will help things there considerably. It will be nice to have a few options instead of just giving O'Brien the ball every other phase.

Ruddock will never be an 8 but he is pushing Locky hard for the starting 6 jersey this season. Ruddock has had easily his best season for Leinster and I've been even calling for him to start at 6 for the last while.

Pre Christmas he was pretty lame I thought. His carrying wasn't up to much

He's not a ball carrier Pete just like Locky isn't. He is the same player as Locky but a bit more athletic but not as good in the lineout.

In an Ulster context, it seemed like Chris Farrell was being groomed to play 13 before he got injured. If Farrell gets gametime at 13 it advances Oldings cause as a 12 because Farrell is a big guy and very strong runner.

What I like about our centre options is we look to have the choice of guys who can run hard and straight in Marshall and Farrell and skillful playmakers in Cave and Olding. But Marshall and Farrell both have good passing games too. Lot of options in the midfield for Ulster.

Marshall could be a very complete inside centre if he can work on his decision making. Certainly decision making the big thing that he needs to work on; he can run hard, great tackler, good passing and offloading and a very good kicking game. But needs the rugby brain to link it all together. Could be formidable.

Will Wallace be there next season?

Leinsterfan-
Completely agree in that regard. Locky hasn't been that good on opposition ball either in the way he was in 2012. Ruddock please.

Notch-
Could you not go for a Marshall 12, olding 13 combo? Worth a shot. Not like cave is setting the world alight the way he was last year. Olding is probably more suited to 13 regarding his size and pace.
Would that be worth a shot?

Golden wrote:Will Wallace be there next season?

Yes. His last season in all probability.

Olding and Marshall- either could be the 13. I prefer Olding at 12 because he seems to be the more creative, intuitive playmaker.

I would have thought that both were creative playmakers but one has the power and one has the pace. Really like that partnership actually

9. Pienaar
10. Jackson
12. Marshall
13. Olding

All four are capable of playing first receiver. That line up would create a lot of opportunities