Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

I think Marshall at 13 in attack would work best as he'd be running hard at smaller guys and could get the hands free to wingers/15 coming from deep. Also allows olding that freedom to attack the line or distribute from 12.

Then Marshall at 12 in defence because he is a good tackler and has the bulk to stop some of the heavy traffic that can come down that channel. Olding has the pace and game readin to cover the multi runner channel and the decision making responsibility of biting or not biting on certain plays.

Taa-daa

I'm actually mark anscombe

And I think this is premature; Darren Cave will be very hard to dislodge from the first team whatever happens.

He's underrated because he does all the little things excellently. I see him remaining first choice into next season. What I do hope is we can rotate him a bit more. He's been played in a lot of games, could have used a few rests.

I agree Notch, Cave is a very solid player.

It will be interesting who Schmidt thinks of as O'Driscoll's replacement.

Golden wrote:I agree Notch, Cave is a very solid player.

It will be interesting who Schmidt thinks of as O'Driscoll's replacement.

It occurred to me yesterday that he could well be thinking of Payne. Keep BOD around until Payne becomes qualified the next summer.
Fits pretty well doesn't it?

Could be nothing but you never know I guess

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Golden wrote:I agree Notch, Cave is a very solid player.

It will be interesting who Schmidt thinks of as O'Driscoll's replacement.

It occurred to me yesterday that he could well be thinking of Payne. Keep BOD around until Payne becomes qualified the next summer.
Fits pretty well doesn't it?

Could be nothing but you never know I guess

Has Payne played centre much? Murray-Madigan-Marshall-Payne-Trimble-Zebo could be a very effective midfield.

Perhaps I'm just getting older, but I really think there's a danger that younger Irish fans will be looking for another BOD to appear immediately and then anyone less skilled as a replacement is no good. Absolutely not a WUM but O'Driscoll is once in a generation or two and you aren't going to see his like again for a very, very long time.

And when you do, it will be spectacularly lucky if he's Irish. Perhaps I'm being unfair and people do know this.

Yeah definitely, we aren't going to be getting another BOD or POC and we shouldn't expect that. You could see the difference that POC made to Munster since his return from injury. Just as you can see the difference BOD makes for Leinster and Ireland.

However what we can look for are players who compliment each other well and form an excellent team as a whole. I don't think Ireland have played like a team for a while, so Schmidt will need to look at this and find out why we aren't clicking. He needs to look at combinations that will work in the second row, the back row and in the centres especially.

We need the perfect foil at 13 to whoever our long term 12 will be. Someone to compliment their skills but offer something different. Also someone with the ability to release our outside backs effectively, which rules out someone like Keith Earls (who otherwise would be a fantastic 13 due to his ability to break the line with ease).

Notch wrote:And I think this is premature; Darren Cave will be very hard to dislodge from the first team whatever happens.

He's underrated because he does all the little things excellently. I see him remaining first choice into next season. What I do hope is we can rotate him a bit more. He's been played in a lot of games, could have used a few rests.

I agree and disagree because I think Cave is both simultaniously overrated, within Ulster, and underrated without. The latter don't see the classy things he does, the deft offloads, nice kicks, vision and running angles but the former seem to ignore his very poor long passing game and lack of genuine pace...the missed tackles and handling errors.

I do think he's under considerable pressure and don't think Anscombe or the IRFU see him as a key player for now or the future.

With Payne signed for the long haul and Marshall, Olding and Allen emerging I think Cave may find himself in and out of the side in coming seasons.

I also suspect that the IRFU may be keen to see Payne more at centre in the run up the the RWC and Nelson get more gametime at 15.

Cave is a key player for ulster now and to suggest different is ludicrous. Whether or not he remains so depends entirely on how Marshall, olding and Farrell develop not to mention Michael Allen. Olding has the inside track now but Marshall is the incumbent (not for much longer mind) Irish 12.

I won't say either is ahead as it will largely depend on pre season.

I can see Bowe being a viable solution in the centre.

- Has played there in past and done well.
- Lots of good wingers. Few good outside centres.
- A very big man at 6 foot 3 - could be like Rougerie moving to centre?
- He would be a good foil to the more slight and creative Marshall or Olding
- He is already a well establish fan favourite. Not as much pressure with BOD comparisons that a young lad would get.

red_stag wrote:I can see Bowe being a viable solution in the centre.

- Has played there in past and done well.
- Lots of good wingers. Few good outside centres.
- A very big man at 6 foot 3 - could be like Rougerie moving to centre?
- He would be a good foil to the more slight and creative Marshall or Olding
- He is already a well establish fan favourite. Not as much pressure with BOD comparisons that a young lad would get.

I've been saying this for a few years and always got shot down.
He also picks INSANELYgood running lines is an excellent offloader and support runner for offloads

Does anyone think Henshaw could end up getting more gametime at 13 or is that throwing a snowball in to hell?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Does anyone think Henshaw could end up getting more gametime at 13 or is that throwing a snowball in to hell?

I dont see it. Why would he. He'll be very much needed fullback for Connacht and apart from playing against the mighty Connacht schools teams has never shown anything major as a 13. Let him in at fullback.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Does anyone think Henshaw could end up getting more gametime at 13 or is that throwing a snowball in to hell?

I dont see it. Why would he. He'll be very much needed there for Connacht and apart from playing against the mighty Connacht schools teams has never shown anything major as a 13. Let him in at fullback.

He has looked really at home in the 15 jersey for one so young. Demented mole did a piece on him and were very impressed.

Are Connacht going to end up with a lot of back3 players there next year??

Pete, they'll have depth there with Carr, O'Halloran, Henshaw, Duffy and Sinoti.

Vainakolo is off to join Exeter Chiefs.

Maybe there will be a chance to see Henshaw in the centre but I think that Griffin, Poolman and dare I say Gavin Duffy are probably better options for #13.

I think its one of those positions that experienced players are often more suited to. A very hard position to get right.

Look at the ease with which Wales could replace Shane Williams or how easy it is to replace a backrow.

Outside centre is a tough position. You're trying to create a link between the halfbacks and the back three and are often operating with little space all the while trying to be a threat yourself. I like to see players moving to 13 when they are older with a feel for the game. Like Umaga or Rougerie (or Bowe)

red_stag wrote:Pete, they'll have depth there with Carr, O'Halloran, Henshaw, Duffy and Sinoti.

Vainakolo is off to join Exeter Chiefs.

Maybe there will be a chance to see Henshaw in the centre but I think that Griffin, Poolman and dare I say Gavin Duffy are probably better options for #13.

I think its one of those positions that experienced players are often more suited to. A very hard position to get right.

Look at the ease with which Wales could replace Shane Williams or how easy it is to replace a backrow.

Outside centre is a tough position. You're trying to create a link between the halfbacks and the back three and are often operating with little space all the while trying to be a threat yourself. I like to see players moving to 13 when they are older with a feel for the game. Like Umaga or Rougerie (or Bowe)

....or Drico, straight in bang a hat trick in Paris.

Guns,

There are of course young 13s who do well. O'Driscoll of course. Tuilagi being another prominent one.

However I just think that while its great to see a centre making a break he needs to be able to unlock a defence with a pass too while under some pressure.

Actually thats one reason I like Darren Cave too. People criticise his lack of pace but he is a very creative player. We really should have seen more from him to date too.

red_stag wrote:
However I just think that while its great to see a centre making a break he needs to be able to unlock a defence with a pass too while under some pressure.

Thats a skill you'd expect from an under -13 schoolboy, players don't learn to pass at 28..... unless you're Keith Earls ....

red_stag wrote:Pete, they'll have depth there with Carr, O'Halloran, Henshaw, Duffy and Sinoti.

Vainakolo is off to join Exeter Chiefs.

The guy from Zebre? Is he any good? They are going to miss Vainikolo

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:I can see Bowe being a viable solution in the centre.

- Has played there in past and done well.
- Lots of good wingers. Few good outside centres.
- A very big man at 6 foot 3 - could be like Rougerie moving to centre?
- He would be a good foil to the more slight and creative Marshall or Olding
- He is already a well establish fan favourite. Not as much pressure with BOD comparisons that a young lad would get.

I've been saying this for a few years and always got shot down.
He also picks INSANELYgood running lines is an excellent offloader and support runner for offloads

Reads like the attributes of a good winger. Whats his distribution like?

Golden wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete, they'll have depth there with Carr, O'Halloran, Henshaw, Duffy and Sinoti.

Vainakolo is off to join Exeter Chiefs.

The guy from Zebre? Is he any good? They are going to miss Vainikolo

Sinotti is absolutely class! Quite like Vainakolo but maybe a bit more mobile and not so strong. He shrugged off two of BOD's tackles a few weeks ago

red_stag wrote:Guns,

There are of course young 13s who do well. O'Driscoll of course. Tuilagi being another prominent one.

However I just think that while its great to see a centre making a break he needs to be able to unlock a defence with a pass too while under some pressure.

Actually thats one reason I like Darren Cave too. People criticise his lack of pace but he is a very creative player. We really should have seen more from him to date too.

He has surprisingly good feet I think. He makes some good linebreaks for someone so slow and always holds the ball in two hands which is obviously a positive.

I don't think he will ever really make it and the amount of talented Ulster backs at the moment coming through I could see him losing out at some point

Cave offers more as a player than O'Driscoll currently does but still isn't good enough to be top class.

However because BOD is BOD and Cave is Cave no one likes to talk about this or rock the status quo.

Anyone else with me on this? ......

rodders wrote:Cave offers more as a player than O'Driscoll currently does but still isn't good enough to be top class.

No. No way does he offer more than O'Driscoll. His strengths are actually very similar to BOD, minus the huge amount of leadership and additional experience BOD has.

Um, he probably has a better kicking game than BOD though? Comparison is a red herring. Cave isn't particularly strong or fast but he has a really brilliant rugby brain. I would prioritise that any day. He just understands the game, sees things and has the skill to execute it. Olding and Cave together can be too lateral because neither is particularly well able to make the hard yards but it's lovely to watch given even a bit of space.

Neither can hold a candle to Keet

rodders wrote:Cave offers more as a player than O'Driscoll currently does but still isn't good enough to be top class.

However because BOD is BOD and Cave is Cave no one likes to talk about this or rock the status quo.

Anyone else with me on this? ......

So basically BOD isnt top class? Not sure Id agree with that. He might be creaking at the seams but still capable of magic that very few centres can match. The Zebo blind airbender pass par example.

I think BOD is still a class above anyone else even with a distinct lack of pace nowadays. Just like POC, who is probably now up there with the slowest locks in the world. They both make a tremendous difference to the team.

Sorry Rodders I am with the lads, Cave hasn't got much international experience but BOD has proven himself time and time again on the international stage.

BOD even this year has looked very good at times he's been making some really good halfbreaks and the space he creates for others is immense for someone who doesn't have that 40yard dash time that others do

whiff of cordite just did a piece on Kieth Earls' future at 13 there a few days ago

http://whiffofcordite.com/2013/05/07/what-next-for-keith-earls/

Lets call BOD player X and Cave player Y and analyse their performances objectively over the past couple of years.

Player X is better defensively but is slower and doesn't create or score as many tries. He has a great offload but can't pass long off his left hand.

Player Y is quicker, has a marginally weaker passing game but a better kicking game. He's bigger but not quite as good a defender.

Who's the better player? ...well its clearly player Y all things considered.

The problem is player X is BOD, who's a legend and player Y is cave, a journey man from Belshaft.... C'est la vie....

rodders wrote:Lets call BOD player X and Cave player Y and analyse their performances objectively over the past couple of years.

Player X is better defensively but is slower and doesn't create or score as many tries. He has a great offload but can't pass long off his left hand.

Player Y is quicker, has a marginally weaker passing game but a better kicking game. He's bigger but not quite as good a defender.

Who's the better player? ...well its clearly player Y all things considered.

The problem is player X is BOD, who's a legend and player Y is cave, a journey man from Belshaft.... C'est la vie....

Cave for Lions 2K13

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:whiff of cordite just did a piece on Kieth Earls' future at 13 there a few days ago

http://whiffofcordite.com/2013/05/07/what-next-for-keith-earls/

Nice to see 606v3er Rava giving Earls a slagging in there ...

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:whiff of cordite just did a piece on Kieth Earls' future at 13 there a few days ago

http://whiffofcordite.com/2013/05/07/what-next-for-keith-earls/

Nice to see 606v3er Rava giving Earls a slagging in there ...

Haha yeah noticed that too!
Whiffofcordite is pretty good IMO, and Demented Mole is really excellent.

Honestly though the stuff that BOD does Cave can't compare to. Like BOD still creates amazing amounts of space for others in attack and you didn't even comment on the breakdown. Is Cave much faster than BOD?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Honestly though the stuff that BOD does Cave can't compare to. Like BOD still creates amazing amounts of space for others in attack and you didn't even comment on the breakdown. Is Cave much faster than BOD?

Boom the breakdown, yeah you got me. Advantage BOD.

I know I've already posted a team but a lot has been talked about since then so I am gonna go right ahead and post one that I've actually thought about.

Last I heard, it sounded like 27 players were going to North America so....

Kilcoyne- Must go as right now he is backup to Healy and has huge potential
Court- In for experience and versatility, also had a v.good season
Archer- 1st team HCup experience, now needs to step up some more
Hagan- Has overtaken Bent, good scrummager and viscous in loose

Best (c)- Not in great form, but genuine class and excellent leader
Strauss- Needs more gametime in green and is a good foil to Best
Cronin- Has looked good this season, fewer errors, more of the tough work

McCarthy- Needs to improve on a good start to the season
Toner- Has looked good since Xmas, dynamic and a smart footballer
Henderson- Great ball carrier, lineout option, hits rucks hard. Lock or 6?

Henry- Unfortunate to be injured for 6N. Excellent at ruck time, dynamic link
POM- I want to see him at 8. Needs to up his workrate in green
TOD- Has had an excellent season, great at ruck and a good carrier w pace
Ruddock- Has looked good, physical and dynamic. Showing good skills
Diack- Able to play 6/8, excellent work-rate and good alrounder

Marmion- Great pass, excellent decision making and kicking. Huge future
Reddan- Kinda 9 Schmidt likes. Needs some gametime good foil for Marmion

Madigan- Excellent pass, great running game, great boot from floor
Jackson- Good passer and needs exposure in green. Excellent footballer

Olding- Has been on fire, excellent runner and great skills
Cave- Not as good a season as last but good skills, line runner and tackler

Earls- Needs to regain confidence, has a lot to prove, covers 11-15
McFadden- Strong runner has been in good form, covers centres as well
Henshaw- Exciting new 15, good skills and decision making
Gilroy- Has had an odd Xmas-present. Needs to show what he can do
Zebo- Unlucky not to be in Oz. Excellent feet & pace, hugely improved skills
Trimble- Massively underrated, deserves an opportunity

COVER:
Madigan covers scrumhalf
Olding covers 10
McFadden and Earls cover 12/13
Zebo and Earls cover 15

OTHER:
Would love to have brought Jack McGrath*, Luke McGrath*, Luke Marshall and Tuohy but numbers are short. I have given Ryan and Ross the summer off to mend themselves, Jones has much more to prove as do Downey, Dom Ryan and Paul Marshall.

*=perhaps not ready yet

No way is Cave quicker than BOD. BOD hasn't the pace he used to but he is still fairly fast. Maybe in a straight line sprint over 25+ meters Cave would be faster but overall it would be BOD.

I think Schmidt will pick Cave more often. Cave has a touch of class that would appeal to Schmidt in my opinion.

I would expect both Isaac Boss and Paul Marshall to feature ahead of Reddan coming back in from a serious injury.

No way should Luke McGrath be there.

We also need another lock. Hendersons credentials as a lock are questionable. We cant just have McCarthy, Toner and Henderson covering boiler room.

No point in bringing Boss. Its highly unlikely he will be around for the 2015 world cup. Cooney or Luke McGrath should go instead but McGrath will probably go on the emerging Ireland tour.

red_stag wrote:I would expect both Isaac Boss and Paul Marshall to feature ahead of Reddan coming back in from a serious injury.

No way should Luke McGrath be there.

We also need another lock. Hendersons credentials as a lock are questionable. We cant just have McCarthy, Toner and Henderson covering boiler room.

I must say after being a Paul Marshall fan I don't think he is worth trying much at International level is pass just is not good enough and that is at provincial level. I think this tour could be good for Reddan to regain some match fitness, I'd be perfectly happy if Boss went instead though.

Agree with you about locks, I wasn't sure what split I was gonna go for between backrow and locks. You could easily put Tuohy in instead of Ruddock/Diack

Diack and Henderson can both cover lock, three specialists plus those two is fine for two test matches.

Say two get injured- Henderson slots in with Diack on the bench. No worries. In Diack you have a backrower who can run a lineout which deflects from Hendersons inexperience in that area.

The players available show why the Lions is bad for Irish rugby. There is no way Murray and Heaslip should have been on that tour, and it's questionable whether Bowe and Kearney should have been there either. Ideally this tour should have had a team made up of about 10 regulars and 5 newbies, to allow new hopefuls to get integrated into the Ireland set-up. As it is little will be learned from the combinations and the tour will be totally devalued as a development tool.

Kilcoyne, Court
Best, Strauss, Cronin
Archer, Fitzpatrick
Ryan, McCarthy, Toner, Tuohy
Dom Ryan, POM, Henderson, Henry, TOD
Marmion, Marshall
Madigan, Jackson
Olding, Cave, McFadden
Zebo, Earls, Trimble, Henshaw

I'd be seriously tempted to take a third SH along for the ride just in case of a bad injury in the first Test. No point in taking Boss as he won't go to the RWC and Reddan needs the rest, so that would have to be between Heaney and Cooney - McGrath is better off at the JWC, and POD has missed the boat.

Golden wrote:I agree Notch, Cave is a very solid player.

It will be interesting who Schmidt thinks of as O'Driscoll's replacement.

It wont be Cave. That's for sure. Or Earls, who's international career has just effectively ended. Deccie loved that boy in an uncomfortable Jimmy Saville type way. Bit like Paddy Bloody Wallace.

I really hope those days are over now. No more international 2nd-raters.

The Great Aukster wrote:The players available show why the Lions is bad for Irish rugby. There is no way Murray and Heaslip should have been on that tour, and it's questionable whether Bowe and Kearney should have been there either. Ideally this tour should have had a team made up of about 10 regulars and 5 newbies, to allow new hopefuls to get integrated into the Ireland set-up. As it is little will be learned from the combinations and the tour will be totally devalued as a development tool.

Kilcoyne, Court
Best, Strauss, Cronin
Archer, Fitzpatrick
Ryan, McCarthy, Toner, Tuohy
Dom Ryan, POM, Henderson, Henry, TOD
Marmion, Marshall
Madigan, Jackson
Olding, Cave, McFadden
Zebo, Earls, Trimble, Henshaw

I'd be seriously tempted to take a third SH along for the ride just in case of a bad injury in the first Test. No point in taking Boss as he won't go to the RWC and Reddan needs the rest, so that would have to be between Heaney and Cooney - McGrath is better off at the JWC, and POD has missed the boat.

Do you think Dom Ryan is better than Diack/Ruddock/Jordi Murphy?

He has played well but never really had the opportunity in big matches since 2011.

Also Reddan needs a rest? That's all he has been getting since mid February, I think this could be a good aspect of a pre-season for him and he can lend some much needed experience to the tour in a game managing position.
I think Ryan is the guy who needs the rest, there's word that he may need surgery on his shoulder
Also does Gilroy not deserve a spot over McFadden or Earls?

Gibson wrote:

Golden wrote:I agree Notch, Cave is a very solid player.

It will be interesting who Schmidt thinks of as O'Driscoll's replacement.

It wont be Cave. That's for sure. Or Earls, who's international career has just effectively ended. Deccie loved that boy in an uncomfortable Jimmy Saville type way. Bit like Paddy Bloody Wallace.

I really hope those days are over now. No more international 2nd-raters.

Gibbo yer a badden sir!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Do you think Dom Ryan is better than Diack/Ruddock/Jordi Murphy?

I think he is a better player than Peter O'Mahony. I reckon he is unlucky that the strength in the Leinster back row is the only reason he hasnt picked up Irish caps.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:No point in bringing Boss. Its highly unlikely he will be around for the 2015 world cup. Cooney or Luke McGrath should go instead but McGrath will probably go on the emerging Ireland tour.

He is just 5 months older than Reddan who seems to be getting a lot of calls for inclusion.

Boss has had a very good season IMO and has still much to offer Ireland over the next 12-18 months.

Reddan who turns 33 this year is no spring chicken either. We know Murray is there. We will look at Marmion now. Lets have either Reddan or Boss in there alongside.

Cooney/Sheridan/McGrath have no business on a senior Irish tour. They are not playing at the required level.

We always hear how age doesnt matter when a promising 20 year old is doing well. Same thing is true when a 33 year old is playing well.

Of the two I think Boss is a better option than Reddan.

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:No point in bringing Boss. Its highly unlikely he will be around for the 2015 world cup. Cooney or Luke McGrath should go instead but McGrath will probably go on the emerging Ireland tour.

He is just 5 months older than Reddan who seems to be getting a lot of calls for inclusion.

Boss has had a very good season IMO and has still much to offer Ireland over the next 12-18 months.

Reddan who turns 33 this year is no spring chicken either. We know Murray is there. We will look at Marmion now. Lets have either Reddan or Boss in there alongside.

Cooney/Sheridan/McGrath have no business on a senior Irish tour. They are not playing at the required level.

We always hear how age doesnt matter when a promising 20 year old is doing well. Same thing is true when a 33 year old is playing well.

Of the two I think Boss is a better option than Reddan.

Completely agree with the bolded part. We really have a thing about this in Ireland. Sure Thorn is still going strong isn't he, Simon Shaw looked good until he was 37 at the highest level. Then on the other end of the spectrum you have James O'Conner and Co.

Good enough=right age

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Do you think Dom Ryan is better than Diack/Ruddock/Jordi Murphy?

I think he is a better player than Peter O'Mahony. I reckon he is unlucky that the strength in the Leinster back row is the only reason he hasnt picked up Irish caps.

Is he not a bit injury prone? He would have lots of opportunities to impress with Leinster as SOB would be away a bit (including the start of this season when SOB had an op). If he can't get ahead of Jennings, he isn't international class yet.

Just checked - he has a similar no of caps for Leinster as POM has for Munster - so its not that he isn't getting the opportunity to impress. Then again, if POM played only at openside, he too would have difficulty getting into the Ireland side ahead of SOB.

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:No point in bringing Boss. Its highly unlikely he will be around for the 2015 world cup. Cooney or Luke McGrath should go instead but McGrath will probably go on the emerging Ireland tour.

He is just 5 months older than Reddan who seems to be getting a lot of calls for inclusion.

Boss has had a very good season IMO and has still much to offer Ireland over the next 12-18 months.

Reddan who turns 33 this year is no spring chicken either. We know Murray is there. We will look at Marmion now. Lets have either Reddan or Boss in there alongside.

Cooney/Sheridan/McGrath have no business on a senior Irish tour. They are not playing at the required level.

We always hear how age doesnt matter when a promising 20 year old is doing well. Same thing is true when a 33 year old is playing well.

Of the two I think Boss is a better option than Reddan.

The familiarity of training/playing with Heislip & Sexton may make Boss look a bit better. Reddan's form has been poor for a while now, so it could also be a case of being made to look good when measured against Reddan.

I would think that if O'Leary has sorted out his fitness problems, he is a far better 'prospect' than either Reddan or O'Leary to bridge the gap until the world is ready for Luke McGrath (or Marmion).

Ryan's caps are more spread out though arent they?

Plus POM would have benefited either way from the Kidney Muster quota unwritten rule wouldnt he Sin?

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:No point in bringing Boss. Its highly unlikely he will be around for the 2015 world cup. Cooney or Luke McGrath should go instead but McGrath will probably go on the emerging Ireland tour.

He is just 5 months older than Reddan who seems to be getting a lot of calls for inclusion.

Boss has had a very good season IMO and has still much to offer Ireland over the next 12-18 months.

Reddan who turns 33 this year is no spring chicken either. We know Murray is there. We will look at Marmion now. Lets have either Reddan or Boss in there alongside.

Cooney/Sheridan/McGrath have no business on a senior Irish tour. They are not playing at the required level.

We always hear how age doesnt matter when a promising 20 year old is doing well. Same thing is true when a 33 year old is playing well.

Of the two I think Boss is a better option than Reddan.

The familiarity of training/playing with Heislip & Sexton may make Boss look a bit better. Reddan's form has been poor for a while now, so it could also be a case of being made to look good when measured against Reddan.

I would think that if O'Leary has sorted out his fitness problems, he is a far better 'prospect' than either Reddan or O'Leary to bridge the gap until the world is ready for Luke McGrath (or Marmion).

Given up on Murray Sin e?

Has O'Leary learnt how to pass at London Irish?