Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

GunsGerms wrote:Ryan's caps are more spread out though arent they?

Plus POM would have benefited either way from the Kidney Muster quota unwritten rule wouldnt he Sin?

Both just finished their 4th seasons. (POM is about 6 months older than Ryan).

We will know if POM is dropped if that is the case I suppose. Non-Leinster fans are going to have some fun on here next season when Joe starts picking his Leinster favourites. There will be some weeping and gnashing of teeth when PJ is dropped for Mads


PS - more competition for Ryan - Tommy O'Donnell has just won Munster Player of the Year. Simon Zebo got Young Player of the Year.

Golden wrote:

Given up on Murray Sin e?

Has O'Leary learnt how to pass at London Irish?

No. Murray is turning into a fine player (and still very young). O'Leary has been out for the season - he had an back operation. Hopefully he will be back to his preinjury best.

Golden wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:No point in bringing Boss. Its highly unlikely he will be around for the 2015 world cup. Cooney or Luke McGrath should go instead but McGrath will probably go on the emerging Ireland tour.

He is just 5 months older than Reddan who seems to be getting a lot of calls for inclusion.

Boss has had a very good season IMO and has still much to offer Ireland over the next 12-18 months.

Reddan who turns 33 this year is no spring chicken either. We know Murray is there. We will look at Marmion now. Lets have either Reddan or Boss in there alongside.

Cooney/Sheridan/McGrath have no business on a senior Irish tour. They are not playing at the required level.

We always hear how age doesnt matter when a promising 20 year old is doing well. Same thing is true when a 33 year old is playing well.

Of the two I think Boss is a better option than Reddan.

The familiarity of training/playing with Heislip & Sexton may make Boss look a bit better. Reddan's form has been poor for a while now, so it could also be a case of being made to look good when measured against Reddan.

I would think that if O'Leary has sorted out his fitness problems, he is a far better 'prospect' than either Reddan or O'Leary to bridge the gap until the world is ready for Luke McGrath (or Marmion).

Given up on Murray Sin e?

Has O'Leary learnt how to pass at London Irish?

Christ, not O Leary, pleeease. He's not even 2nd rate, he's 3rd rate at best. Silk-purse/ sows-ear syndrome. Murray has improved immensely. He's our man. Need to bring Marmion on internationally now. The boy is class. He must travel, along with Murray.

BTW, Reddan is the player who really lights Leinster up. Everyone knows that. But I don't think he or Boss will make the RWC. So, its high time to look at younger alternatives.

Surely Robbie Diack has played himself onto the plane now.

Notch wrote:Surely Robbie Diack has played himself onto the plane now.

He has had a great year. Im a big fan. I think currently he is a better player than Henderson.

Gibson wrote:

Golden wrote:I agree Notch, Cave is a very solid player.

It will be interesting who Schmidt thinks of as O'Driscoll's replacement.

It wont be Cave. That's for sure. Or Earls, who's international career has just effectively ended. Deccie loved that boy in an uncomfortable Jimmy Saville type way. Bit like Paddy Bloody Wallace.

I really hope those days are over now. No more international 2nd-raters.

Lol...Gibbo you are a one off....enjoy your posts bro

Notch wrote:Surely Robbie Diack has played himself onto the plane now.

He must be the most improved player this season. He was good and not much more last season, this season he is outstanding. I hope he gets a shot with Ireland this summer as he has proved himself to be pretty class.


so....just gonna throw a cat in amongst the pigeons for a moment.......Payne played 13 last night pretty damn well for 20mins.......

Also Hendy at lock was pretty nice to see again, looks good there too. Cave also had a big game.

Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

Agreed on the Ulster part. I'd also add in Olding/Marshall in to the mix.

The alternatives from the other provinces all have flaws:

Leinster:
O'Malley is very small and has not got much top game time. Granted this may change but can't comment on hypotheticals really.
Fitzgerald is hugely talented with great skills, defence, vision and physical attributes. He does get injured a lot and he may stay as a back3 player.

Munster:
Earls has had a lot of chances and only infrequently fully impressed against top quality. His skills/vision are an issue but he has experience at 13.

Connacht:
Griffin could well come good. He has looked better each season but still has some kicking on to do IMO.

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

It won't be Cave or Bowe. Some of you folks forget that Earls got picked for a Lions tour playing at centre as a 20 year old with one international cap. If either of those 2 do play centre for Ireland, it will be because someone else is injured.

As an aside, reports on Munsterfans are that Leinster are now raiding Munster schools for back's talent and are about to offer an academy contract to Greg O'Shea (Crescent College). He has a choice to make between athletics and rugby, but seems to be veering towards rugby.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Munster:
Earls has had a lot of chances and only infrequently fully impressed against top quality. His skills/vision are an issue but he has experience at 13.

No he hasn't had a lot of chances at 13 internationally. The chances he did get when he played more than 2 games in a row (6Ns 2012) and rarely with the same centre partner (could have been any of BOD, D'Arcy or Wallace), he was one of the better backs. At least he can make a few linebreaks. Don't underestimate how much easier it is for BOD & D'Arcy having played about 150 games together between club & country.

To say Earls hasn't delivered against top opposition - who has he not delivered against when playing in the centre for Ireland? I know he has delivered plenty of times (and is generally one of Munster's best backs which is saying a lot with the likes of Howlett and Jean de Villiers on the pitch).

Yes Sin but that just shows how little Keith has improved over 4 years. It doesn't even make the slightest difference that he was picked 4 years ago at the age of 20 as a centre. England could make a similarly bizarre argument regarding Matthew Tait as their starting 13 in the 2007 world cup. It doesn't actually mean anything if they haven't moved on from then.

I honestly would love to see Earls continue to play at 13 for Munster. I really would. He has the line breaking ability that few other players possess and he has shown glimpses (albeit rare) of his distribution and awareness. However, it really has been rare. Maybe consistent game time as a 13 for Munster can mould him into the player that the Munster fans convince us he is, but until then, he should never be an option at 13 for Ireland.

Sin, do you see Earls as the answer to the 13 shirt for Ireland?

That line Cave took off Trimble for the Court try was seriously sexy. He is quicker than he looks also I think. He really motored through that gap.

Yeah I thought that was Bowe at first, since that is what Bowe is best at. One of the best in the world at picking the perfect running lines actually. I was seriously impressed with Cave on that burst.

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

It won't be Cave or Bowe. Some of you folks forget that Earls got picked for a Lions tour playing at centre as a 20 year old with one international cap. If either of those 2 do play centre for Ireland, it will be because someone else is injured.

As an aside, reports on Munsterfans are that Leinster are now raiding Munster schools for back's talent and are about to offer an academy contract to Greg O'Shea (Crescent College). He has a choice to make between athletics and rugby, but seems to be veering towards rugby.

raiding Munster schools and then you name one player... Yes Leinster are really raiding Munster's schools, shame on us. We do have our own coming through you know. Guys like Billy Dardis (left Munster's academy after a week), Harrison Brewer, Barry Daly, Adam Byrne and Max Mcfarland.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes Sin but that just shows how little Keith has improved over 4 years. It doesn't even make the slightest difference that he was picked 4 years ago at the age of 20 as a centre. England could make a similarly bizarre argument regarding Matthew Tait as their starting 13 in the 2007 world cup. It doesn't actually mean anything if they haven't moved on from then.

I honestly would love to see Earls continue to play at 13 for Munster. I really would. He has the line breaking ability that few other players possess and he has shown glimpses (albeit rare) of his distribution and awareness. However, it really has been rare. Maybe consistent game time as a 13 for Munster can mould him into the player that the Munster fans convince us he is, but until then, he should never be an option at 13 for Ireland.

It does make a blind bit of difference - Matthew Tait made the England team, Earls made the Lions. Neither Cave or any of the other centre hopefuls could even do that.

2ndly, Earls started every game at 13 for Munster this season, bar one the last when Hurley was dropped for him to play in Howlett usual spot.

The only time he has had more than 2 games in a row in the centre was 2012 six nations when Ireland came away with an unlikely draw away to France where people claimed that Rougerie would make mince meat of him. He diden't.

I was looking at the list of attributes of potential successors to Conrad Smith. The ones listed as an important strength was line breaking ability and quick feet. Both of which Earls has in abundance. Not one mention about distribution might be an issue (and those critiqued were all wingers/fullbacks).

Facts are, last year Zebo played outside Earls and scored a lot of tries. Somehow or other the ball is getting out to Zebo on that wing to score them. Even this year, Zebo's only hattrick was outside Earls. Somehow or other, Earls has some hand in creating space for him to do that.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, do you see Earls as the answer to the 13 shirt for Ireland?

I think he is top of the list. The interesting bit is going to be when Schmidt retires BOD and how.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

It won't be Cave or Bowe. Some of you folks forget that Earls got picked for a Lions tour playing at centre as a 20 year old with one international cap. If either of those 2 do play centre for Ireland, it will be because someone else is injured.

As an aside, reports on Munsterfans are that Leinster are now raiding Munster schools for back's talent and are about to offer an academy contract to Greg O'Shea (Crescent College). He has a choice to make between athletics and rugby, but seems to be veering towards rugby.

raiding Munster schools and then you name one player... Yes Leinster are really raiding Munster's schools, shame on us. We do have our own coming through you know. Guys like Billy Dardis (left Munster's academy after a week), Harrison Brewer, Barry Daly, Adam Byrne and Max Mcfarland.

All of those went to school in Leinster (Dardis in Roscrea that plays its rugby for Leinster).

Greg O'Shea is a wing (a very fast one). Its just funny to think of Leinster having to recruit outside backs from Limerick of all places who are renowned for their forwards.

O'Shea turned down an academy contract with Munster to join the Leinster one according to a guy on Munster fans. Right move for him because he would have no chance of getting any gametime with Munster. Just look at Hanrahan.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:O'Shea turned down an academy contract with Munster to join the Leinster one according to a guy on Munster fans. Right move for him because he would have no chance of getting any gametime with Munster. Just look at Hanrahan.

Or maybe he thought he wouldn't have a chance with who Munster have got and who is in the pipleline.

Its still funny that Leinster are recruiting backs for the best academy in the world (copyright Leinster fans) from Limerick either way!

How would he know who Munster would have in the "pipeline" If he is getting in the Leinster academy he must be a real talent because of the amount of good young players in the province.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

Agreed on the Ulster part. I'd also add in Olding/Marshall in to the mix.

The alternatives from the other provinces all have flaws:

Leinster:
O'Malley is very small and has not got much top game time. Granted this may change but can't comment on hypotheticals really.
Fitzgerald is hugely talented with great skills, defence, vision and physical attributes. He does get injured a lot and he may stay as a back3 player.

Munster:
Earls has had a lot of chances and only infrequently fully impressed against top quality. His skills/vision are an issue but he has experience at 13.

Connacht:
Griffin could well come good. He has looked better each season but still has some kicking on to do IMO.

While I've never been convinced by Earls as a 13 I'd like to see what he could do playing in a team that knows what it's doing on attack.His ability to break the line is valuable and if you had backrows and wingers giving him support then who knows what he could do.I'd still have reservations about his defensive positioning as evidenced by his blunder for the 1st Welsh try in this years 6N.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes Sin but that just shows how little Keith has improved over 4 years. It doesn't even make the slightest difference that he was picked 4 years ago at the age of 20 as a centre. England could make a similarly bizarre argument regarding Matthew Tait as their starting 13 in the 2007 world cup. It doesn't actually mean anything if they haven't moved on from then.

I honestly would love to see Earls continue to play at 13 for Munster. I really would. He has the line breaking ability that few other players possess and he has shown glimpses (albeit rare) of his distribution and awareness. However, it really has been rare. Maybe consistent game time as a 13 for Munster can mould him into the player that the Munster fans convince us he is, but until then, he should never be an option at 13 for Ireland.

It does make a blind bit of difference - Matthew Tait made the England team, Earls made the Lions. Neither Cave or any of the other centre hopefuls could even do that.

2ndly, Earls started every game at 13 for Munster this season, bar one the last when Hurley was dropped for him to play in Howlett usual spot.

The only time he has had more than 2 games in a row in the centre was 2012 six nations when Ireland came away with an unlikely draw away to France where people claimed that Rougerie would make mince meat of him. He diden't.

I was looking at the list of attributes of potential successors to Conrad Smith. The ones listed as an important strength was line breaking ability and quick feet. Both of which Earls has in abundance. Not one mention about distribution might be an issue (and those critiqued were all wingers/fullbacks).

Facts are, last year Zebo played outside Earls and scored a lot of tries. Somehow or other the ball is getting out to Zebo on that wing to score them. Even this year, Zebo's only hattrick was outside Earls. Somehow or other, Earls has some hand in creating space for him to do that.

There is so much wrong with this, Sin.

I'll just point out that if you really think the All Blacks don't consider awareness and distribution skills to be a requirement in ANY position on their team you really are in with the clouds. They EXPECT the potential 13 options to have those basic skills.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes Sin but that just shows how little Keith has improved over 4 years. It doesn't even make the slightest difference that he was picked 4 years ago at the age of 20 as a centre. England could make a similarly bizarre argument regarding Matthew Tait as their starting 13 in the 2007 world cup. It doesn't actually mean anything if they haven't moved on from then.

I honestly would love to see Earls continue to play at 13 for Munster. I really would. He has the line breaking ability that few other players possess and he has shown glimpses (albeit rare) of his distribution and awareness. However, it really has been rare. Maybe consistent game time as a 13 for Munster can mould him into the player that the Munster fans convince us he is, but until then, he should never be an option at 13 for Ireland.

It does make a blind bit of difference - Matthew Tait made the England team, Earls made the Lions. Neither Cave or any of the other centre hopefuls could even do that.

2ndly, Earls started every game at 13 for Munster this season, bar one the last when Hurley was dropped for him to play in Howlett usual spot.

The only time he has had more than 2 games in a row in the centre was 2012 six nations when Ireland came away with an unlikely draw away to France where people claimed that Rougerie would make mince meat of him. He diden't.

I was looking at the list of attributes of potential successors to Conrad Smith. The ones listed as an important strength was line breaking ability and quick feet. Both of which Earls has in abundance. Not one mention about distribution might be an issue (and those critiqued were all wingers/fullbacks).

Facts are, last year Zebo played outside Earls and scored a lot of tries. Somehow or other the ball is getting out to Zebo on that wing to score them. Even this year, Zebo's only hattrick was outside Earls. Somehow or other, Earls has some hand in creating space for him to do that.

There is so much wrong with this, Sin.

I'll just point out that if you really think the All Blacks don't consider awareness and distribution skills to be a requirement in ANY position on their team you really are in with the clouds. They EXPECT the potential 13 options to have those basic skills.

Where did I say that awareness etc. was not required. Its just that they see line breaking ability and pace as being very important which get dismissed because Earls has them in abundance and the rest of the potential candidates are lacking. Even Conrad Smith would have struggled to know that BOD was behind him in that much discussed failed pass against Scotland. He would have needed a hearing aid, eyes in the back of his head with binoculars on to see BOD.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

Agreed on the Ulster part. I'd also add in Olding/Marshall in to the mix.

The alternatives from the other provinces all have flaws:

Leinster:
O'Malley is very small and has not got much top game time. Granted this may change but can't comment on hypotheticals really.
Fitzgerald is hugely talented with great skills, defence, vision and physical attributes. He does get injured a lot and he may stay as a back3 player.

Munster:
Earls has had a lot of chances and only infrequently fully impressed against top quality. His skills/vision are an issue but he has experience at 13.

Connacht:
Griffin could well come good. He has looked better each season but still has some kicking on to do IMO.

While I've never been convinced by Earls as a 13 I'd like to see what he could do playing in a team that knows what it's doing on attack.His ability to break the line is valuable and if you had backrows and wingers giving him support then who knows what he could do.I'd still have reservations about his defensive positioning as evidenced by his blunder for the 1st Welsh try in this years 6N.

First game on the wing since last June. He has been playing centre when not coming back from an injury this season. Even in the AIs he played in the centre for Ireland as BOD was out injured.

Edit: actually I'd forgotten - that try was coming and he replaced D'Arcy, didn't he. He was also coming back from an injury so I wouldn't read too much into that one.

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

It won't be Cave or Bowe. Some of you folks forget that Earls got picked for a Lions tour playing at centre as a 20 year old with one international cap. If either of those 2 do play centre for Ireland, it will be because someone else is injured.

As an aside, reports on Munsterfans are that Leinster are now raiding Munster schools for back's talent and are about to offer an academy contract to Greg O'Shea (Crescent College). He has a choice to make between athletics and rugby, but seems to be veering towards rugby.

raiding Munster schools and then you name one player... Yes Leinster are really raiding Munster's schools, shame on us. We do have our own coming through you know. Guys like Billy Dardis (left Munster's academy after a week), Harrison Brewer, Barry Daly, Adam Byrne and Max Mcfarland.

All of those went to school in Leinster (Dardis in Roscrea that plays its rugby for Leinster).

Greg O'Shea is a wing (a very fast one). Its just funny to think of Leinster having to recruit outside backs from Limerick of all places who are renowned for their forwards.

Wasn't Dardis the Terenure fullback?

Im looking forward to Earls replacing Howlett on wing. Prefer to see Bohane Dineen Laulala at 13 next year.

Golden wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

It won't be Cave or Bowe. Some of you folks forget that Earls got picked for a Lions tour playing at centre as a 20 year old with one international cap. If either of those 2 do play centre for Ireland, it will be because someone else is injured.

As an aside, reports on Munsterfans are that Leinster are now raiding Munster schools for back's talent and are about to offer an academy contract to Greg O'Shea (Crescent College). He has a choice to make between athletics and rugby, but seems to be veering towards rugby.

raiding Munster schools and then you name one player... Yes Leinster are really raiding Munster's schools, shame on us. We do have our own coming through you know. Guys like Billy Dardis (left Munster's academy after a week), Harrison Brewer, Barry Daly, Adam Byrne and Max Mcfarland.

All of those went to school in Leinster (Dardis in Roscrea that plays its rugby for Leinster).

Greg O'Shea is a wing (a very fast one). Its just funny to think of Leinster having to recruit outside backs from Limerick of all places who are renowned for their forwards.

Wasn't Dardis the Terenure fullback?

Yes, but he moved there from Newbridge College (not Roscrea - was thinking of someone else).

Not sure what point L4L was making - its still very funny that Leinster Rugby are interested in recruiting Backs from Limerick (lots of Limerick forwards made their way to Leinster).

You can't see what point I was making??? I was saying that there are good players coming through from the Leinster schools. Not to hard to understand.

Oh but we are raiding Munster schools with this rumour of ONE player(who may or may even not decide to play rugby) who might have been offered a contract at the leinster academy ( still only a rumour) The things you come out with.

Did anyone sign up that Roscrea lad Sean O'Brien he looked very good from what i saw

Think he's in the Connacht academy Golden. Former Leinster u19 and Seapoint fly half Peter Lydon got offered a contract with Stade Francais believe it or not!

Should learn a lot under ROG.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:You can't see what point I was making??? I was saying that there are good players coming through from the Leinster schools. Not to hard to understand.

Oh but we are raiding Munster schools with this rumour of ONE player(who may or may even not decide to play rugby) who might have been offered a contract at the leinster academy ( still only a rumour) The things you come out with.

Chill LF4L - I'm only making a little joke about Leinster (known for producing dazzling backs) are supposedly interested in recruiting from Limerick (known for producing grizzly forwards).

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Think he's in the Connacht academy Golden. Former Leinster u19 and Seapoint fly half Peter Lydon got offered a contract with Stade Francais believe it or not!

Should learn a lot under ROG.

Good to hear. There's a lot of young talent at Connacht which is great to see. Haven't heard of Lydon but its always interesting to see when young players go to the continent.

Having watched the Ulster game last night, and thinking back to the comments that Pete made a few days back regarding Ireland's weakness in contact and in the collision game, it is clear how vital players such as Nick Williams are. Without him, I don't think Ulster would be as effective because he really does add significant bulk. As does Afoa when he is playing.

Other nations have these monstrous specimens in their pack (more than one usually) specifically to add bulk and physicality to the game, but we seem to be well behind here. England have the Vunipola brothers and Ben Morgan. SA have Etzebeth, Vermeulen and Alberts. Picamoles for France. Australia will probably unleash Auelua against the Lions this summer.

It isn't just the pack either, most teams now have a real big carrying option in the back line (Wales with Roberts/North, England with Tuilagi, SA with De Villiers, NZ with Nonu/SBW).

Are we behind other nations in this aspect of rugby? And if we are, who do we have to fix it? Apart from Henderson who has immense strength and size, and Marshall to add bulk at 12, we don't have a whole lot. Especially at the back row where we seem to prefer lighter players.

I would like to see this team start our first game;

1. David Kilcoyne
2. Rory Best (c)
3. Jamie Hagan
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Mike McCarthy
6. Robbie Diack
7. Chris Henry
8. Peter O'Mahony
9. Isaac Boss
10. Ian Madigan
11. Craig Gilroy
12. Stuart Olding
13. Darren Cave
14. Andrew Trimble
15. Simon Zebo

16. Sean Cronin 17. Tom Court 18. Declan Fitzpatrick 19. Iain Henderson 20. Tommy O'Donnell 21. Paul Marshall 22. Paddy Jackson 23. Keith Earls

Will reddan be fit for the tour?

Sorry don't think so. I've changed it to Isaac Boss.

Notch wrote:I would like to see this team start our first game;

1. David Kilcoyne
2. Rory Best (c)
3. Jamie Hagan
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Mike McCarthy
6. Robbie Diack
7. Chris Henry
8. Peter O'Mahony
9. Isaac Boss
10. Ian Madigan
11. Craig Gilroy
12. Stuart Olding
13. Darren Cave
14. Andrew Trimble
15. Simon Zebo

16. Sean Cronin 17. Tom Court 18. Declan Fitzpatrick 19. Iain Henderson 20. Tommy O'Donnell 21. Paul Marshall 22. Paddy Jackson 23. Keith Earls

Great team Notch, pretty much exactly what I would like to see, although I think it would be worth sticking Hendy in over McCarthy and selecting Marmion for the bench. Zebo at 15 is a good call too.

Still a bit lightweight though.

Notch wrote:I would like to see this team start our first game;

1. David Kilcoyne
2. Rory Best (c)
3. Jamie Hagan
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Mike McCarthy
6. Robbie Diack
7. Chris Henry
8. Peter O'Mahony
9. Isaac Boss
10. Ian Madigan
11. Craig Gilroy
12. Stuart Olding
13. Darren Cave
14. Andrew Trimble
15. Simon Zebo

16. Sean Cronin 17. Tom Court 18. Declan Fitzpatrick 19. Iain Henderson 20. Tommy O'Donnell 21. Paul Marshall 22. Paddy Jackson 23. Keith Earls

I think Ryan should be left at home to sort out his shoulder,stick young Henderson in there instead.

Notch wrote:Sorry don't think so. I've changed it to Isaac Boss.

Watching him in the RDS, I'd leave Boss at home. He tries to do too much himself and is so predictable.

I'm not exactly filled with confidence over the quality of his competitors though. Against a team with players not used to playing at this level he can be lethal.

Like the look of that team, Notch. Only thing is I'd have Marmion at least on the bench. Been impressed everytime I've seen him this year, which granted, isn't that much.

Also what age is TOD? Best Munster backrow this year in my eyes just ahead of POM.

TOD is 25 (2 years older than POM). Munster Player of the Year ahead of Kilcoyne & Zebo who were also nominated. Zebo got Young Player of the Year.

Laurie Fisher - former Munster forwards coach now with Brumbies - and now gives good insight on twitter of Munster players - rated him highly with a lot of similarities to Richie McCaw at the start of the season.

Seems he is a very quite fellow normally, but got the dressing room all fired up for the Quins clash - so looks as if he could be a bit of a leader as well.

Cheers Sin I only heard of him last year but he's really impressed me this year!

Would like to see him in the full squad.

O'Donnell is starting to come into the game around the same time Wallace came into the Ireland setup, which is great. He is showing similar qualities to Wallace too. I would like to see him get a few starts at 7 this tour.

He bulked up considerably over last summer - not sure whether it was v Ulster or Leinster last season, but he looked like a little boy playing with the big boys as he was completely outmuscled.

Found Laurie Fisher's tweet about him (last Jan): ''So pleased to hear Tommy O'Donnell playing big for Munster. Always thought he had McCaw like physical qualities, just needed the mindset.'' He went onto say that he thought he would be well suited to Super Rugby.

In a similar vein, Rob Penney said something similar about Sean Dougall in that he needed a year or two to develop the mindset/nous of backrow play. Think Penny rates him very highly also as an up and coming Openside.

O'Donnell has come on very well. I am really happy with our backrow depth:

06 - Peter O'Mahony, Dave O'Callaghan
07 - Tommy O'Donnell, Sean Dougall
08 - James Coughlan, CJ Stander, Paddy Butler

I had actually thought Munster, with what I perceived to be fairly good depth in most positions would have a good Rabo campaign and that Ulster would be semi finals or final in Europe but maybe not as good in the long league campaign.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Having watched the Ulster game last night, and thinking back to the comments that Pete made a few days back regarding Ireland's weakness in contact and in the collision game, it is clear how vital players such as Nick Williams are. Without him, I don't think Ulster would be as effective because he really does add significant bulk. As does Afoa when he is playing.

Other nations have these monstrous specimens in their pack (more than one usually) specifically to add bulk and physicality to the game, but we seem to be well behind here. England have the Vunipola brothers and Ben Morgan. SA have Etzebeth, Vermeulen and Alberts. Picamoles for France. Australia will probably unleash Auelua against the Lions this summer.

It isn't just the pack either, most teams now have a real big carrying option in the back line (Wales with Roberts/North, England with Tuilagi, SA with De Villiers, NZ with Nonu/SBW).

Are we behind other nations in this aspect of rugby? And if we are, who do we have to fix it? Apart from Henderson who has immense strength and size, and Marshall to add bulk at 12, we don't have a whole lot. Especially at the back row where we seem to prefer lighter players.

Yeah totally agree. Everything good from Ulster this year has started with Williams, we just don't have enough big target men who can bust the gain line and take out defenders.

I think Dan Touhy is very underrated though. He's a powerful carrier and a big scrummager.

I was also thinking how good Ulster have been with Trimble and Bowe on either wing and the value of 3 powerful strike runners in the back 3. Is it a coincidence Irelands best performance in recent times came with Bowe, Trimbs and Earls at the back?