Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

So what players do you think offer power and bulk for Ireland?

In the backs:

Luke Marshall
Andrew Trimble
Tommy Bowe

In the forwards:

Cian Healy
Sean O'Brien
Iain Henderson
Tommy O'Donnell

We haven't seen all of these guys in the same team before though. Do we have any other options? Nearly all of our young players coming through the ranks seem particularly small I have noticed.

You should look for power and bulk if you want to play a South African, Welsh or English type of game. We have the players to play a more French/Aussie type of game. The Aussies have been consistently one of the best teams in the world and Irelands pack dominated them during the world cup.

What we're lacking is an attack of any kind. The backs and forwards need to link up more and play as a unit. Under Kidney they didn't know what they were doing. Schmidt should and will make that his number 1 priority.

France and Australia still have a few behemoths at their disposal though. Like I said watch out for Auelua for Australia against the Lions. If he isn't starting then Higginbotham more than likely will be. Obviously there is Picamoles for France too.

Meanwhile, apart from Heaslip (who isn't known to be much of a bruising runner) all of our back row forwards are below 17 stone. That is rather weak compared to other nations. O'Brien and Healy are our primary carriers in the pack but I think we need a bit more than that.

I think every team needs a few guys like this in their team. When Ulster are slowed down, we have Williams to try and suck in the defence and spark some life into the attack. It is a huge bonus when these guys are skilful too, they aren't one dimensional. Picamoles for example has really silky handling for such a big number 8. Great offload too.

The answer is more food and buns...............

Seriously though... I hear Schmidt was left with certain personel - doctors and nutritionists etc. that weren't within his powers to change if he had wanted to.

Now, maybe it's not as big a deal as I often make it out to be.....and maybe it is!
I just feel we could do with a thorough analysis of all systems and programmes we use - and most especially also include our fitness/nutrition programmes. We always seem to fade away during intense sequences of games in recent years. - WCs and 6N. - I think we do need to check out that area and see can we make improvements or if we might need or gain advantages from new personel in those areas.

Rodders has said a few times that apparently Afoa thinks our strength and conditioning is very weak before professional level. I would be inclined to believe that. Often our U20s look far smaller than any other nation in the competition.

SecretFly wrote:Seriously though... I hear Schmidt was left with certain personel - doctors and nutritionists etc. that weren't within his powers to change if he had wanted to.

Now, maybe it's not as big a deal as I often make it out to be.....and maybe it is!
I just feel we could do with a thorough analysis of all systems and programmes we use - and most especially also include our fitness/nutrition programmes. We always seem to fade away during intense sequences of games in recent years. - WCs and 6N. - I think we do need to check out that area and see can we make improvements or if we might need or gain advantages from new personel in those areas.

How much would Schmidt know about nutrition anyway? He'd be at the mercy of the professionals selecting them. Munster use this guy as Strength & Conditioning consultant: http://www.nutritionx.ie/dr-graeme-l-close/ and the fitness guy is an Aussie. The senior physio is a Saffer - so its fair to say that there is a lot of outside expertise used.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rodders has said a few times that apparently Afoa thinks our strength and conditioning is very weak before professional level. I would be inclined to believe that. Often our U20s look far smaller than any other nation in the competition.

Yeah, we need to get up to speed on areas that are chugging along at sub-standard levels. I hope Schmidt uses some of his time to influence thinking in those areas if he sees a big variation in what happens here to what happened at home.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rodders has said a few times that apparently Afoa thinks our strength and conditioning is very weak before professional level. I would be inclined to believe that. Often our U20s look far smaller than any other nation in the competition.

I'd say Afoa probably don't take into account that celts don't develop as quickly as the Kiwis with South Seas island blood in them.

Sin é wrote:

How much would Schmidt know about nutrition anyway? He'd be at the mercy of the professionals selecting them. Munster use this guy as Strength & Conditioning consultant: http://www.nutritionx.ie/dr-graeme-l-close/ and the fitness guy is an Aussie. The senior physio is a Saffer - so its fair to say that there is a lot of outside expertise used.

I'm not saying he'd know a blessed thing about nutrition...but he's know it matters, he knows what performance levels he'll need for International (and if he doesn't, he'll soon learn). There are many things Ireland can give a real deep look at (in cahoots with our Head Coach) now that we're having a new start.

And certainly our ability to sustain a competiitive pace during International standard sessions (WC, 6N or last NZ tour etc) is a big area that can be looked at much closer.

That doesn't mean our system isn't lagging. That isn't an excuse at all in my opinion.

I think the main problem is a large fear from parents that lifting heavy weights will ruin their children's development. Which, although understandable that they would be so protective, is so unfounded and outdated.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rodders has said a few times that apparently Afoa thinks our strength and conditioning is very weak before professional level. I would be inclined to believe that. Often our U20s look far smaller than any other nation in the competition.

I'd say Afoa probably don't take into account that celts don't develop as quickly as the Kiwis with South Seas island blood in them.

So that's another area that also appears to be 100% in Ireland, Sin? I don't know why we're languishing in 9th with all that didn't/doesn't need to be looked at or changed at Ireland.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rodders has said a few times that apparently Afoa thinks our strength and conditioning is very weak before professional level. I would be inclined to believe that. Often our U20s look far smaller than any other nation in the competition.

I'd say Afoa probably don't take into account that celts don't develop as quickly as the Kiwis with South Seas island blood in them.

So that's another area that also appears to be 100% in Ireland, Sin? I don't know why we're languishing in 9th with all that didn't/doesn't need to be looked at or changed at Ireland.

Where did I say that? I made the point that its not a neglected area. Ireland were going to Spala about 10 years before the Welsh started going (David Wallace got called up to the Lions in 2001 on his way there). They were on a stop over in Copenhagen and ROG rang him!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think the main problem is a large fear from parents that lifting heavy weights will ruin their children's development. Which, although understandable that they would be so protective, is so unfounded and outdated.

I think a lot of Irish players don't concentrate on any one sport until their late teens. I also wonder if its the reason why some players end up broken at a young age (like Luke Fitz) because of too much training before they have finished growing. Players like BOD & D'Arcy have been far more enduring that their replacements like Eoin O'Malley etc. and BOD and D'Arcy probably didn't lift a weight until they were 21.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rodders has said a few times that apparently Afoa thinks our strength and conditioning is very weak before professional level. I would be inclined to believe that. Often our U20s look far smaller than any other nation in the competition.

I'd say Afoa probably don't take into account that celts don't develop as quickly as the Kiwis with South Seas island blood in them.

So that's another area that also appears to be 100% in Ireland, Sin? I don't know why we're languishing in 9th with all that didn't/doesn't need to be looked at or changed at Ireland.

Where did I say that? I made the point that its not a neglected area. Ireland were going to Spala about 10 years before the Welsh started going (David Wallace got called up to the Lions in 2001 on his way there). They were on a stop over in Copenhagen and ROG rang him!

Now there's a guy who always looked the full physcial specimen...and played like it sat well on him too.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think the main problem is a large fear from parents that lifting heavy weights will ruin their children's development. Which, although understandable that they would be so protective, is so unfounded and outdated.

I think a lot of Irish players don't concentrate on any one sport until their late teens. I also wonder if its the reason why some players end up broken at a young age (like Luke Fitz) because of too much training before they have finished growing. Players like BOD & D'Arcy have been far more enduring that their replacements like Eoin O'Malley etc. and BOD and D'Arcy probably didn't lift a weight until they were 21.

Sin, this is a load of rubbish. Very outdated.

My second favourite sport is Olympic Weightlifting, and the reason the western countries (the US, the UK, Ireland) are so behind in this sport is that they don't train young enough. This is largely due to lack of popularity and the reasons I outlined above. However, countries like Russia, China, Iran and other weightlifting nations, start training as young as 6 years of age. You want to see how their development has been affected? Do a bit of research.

Here, Igor Lukanin, started weight training from the age of 6. He is 191cm tall. Does he look broken?


And here is Ireland's best hope of winning a medal in this sport in the near future. He started at 15 and wishes he started even younger. Maybe he has started far too early?

Imagine if we moved on from such outdated beliefs and produced athletes with that sort of power. Clarence is still only 19, still growing, and is still behind people in lower weight classes in the sport. There are juniors at 16 with twice as much experience in weightlifting as him because they started younger. They are the ones winning medals because of it.

To be more specific to rugby, obviously the training will be different as it is a team sport and involves a lot more sports specific conditioning, but we can certainly have our athletes training to such a level that they no longer are lagging behind.

This doesn't mean skills are ignored btw. You can train both.

The Russians, Georgians etc. have a completely different physiology to us as do the Kiwi with Islander heritage. They size grade them in NZ, not age grade them because of this.

So that is the attitude we take? We have lost the genetic lottery and we are weaker than all the other nations. Lets just accept it and play with what we have got.

What a defeatist attitude. We can quite clearly get stronger and bigger. I just gave you an example of a particularly strong (meaning stronger than 99% of the rest of the men in the world) young man from Ireland. He of course was a genetically gifted young man, but he also trained at a decent age (15).

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rodders has said a few times that apparently Afoa thinks our strength and conditioning is very weak before professional level. I would be inclined to believe that. Often our U20s look far smaller than any other nation in the competition.

I'd say Afoa probably don't take into account that celts don't develop as quickly as the Kiwis with South Seas island blood in them.

So that's another area that also appears to be 100% in Ireland, Sin? I don't know why we're languishing in 9th with all that didn't/doesn't need to be looked at or changed at Ireland.

Where did I say that? I made the point that its not a neglected area. Ireland were going to Spala about 10 years before the Welsh started going (David Wallace got called up to the Lions in 2001 on his way there). They were on a stop over in Copenhagen and ROG rang him!

Interesting that we were an 80 minute team back then too.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So that is the attitude we take? We have lost the genetic lottery and we are weaker than all the other nations. Lets just accept it and play with what we have got.

What a defeatist attitude. We can quite clearly get stronger and bigger. I just gave you an example of a particularly strong (meaning stronger than 99% of the rest of the men in the world) young man from Ireland. He of course was a genetically gifted young man, but he also trained at a decent age (15).

Its not a defeatest attitude. In general, Irish people are more interested in playing field sports that don't require a lot of time in the gym. Rory McIlroy could have done with a bit more time in the gym, mind. Paul O'Connell thought he was going to be a swimming and then a golfer before settling on rugby. Simon Zebo probably thought he was probably training to be an Olympian like his sister and dad (who both missed out because of injury).

Rugby doesn't require a lot of time in the gym?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rugby doesn't require a lot of time in the gym?

Rugby would be way behind soccer & gaelic games in playing popularity.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rugby doesn't require a lot of time in the gym?

Rugby would be way behind soccer & gaelic games in playing popularity.

How does that answer my question?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rugby doesn't require a lot of time in the gym?

Rugby would be way behind soccer & gaelic games in playing popularity.

How does that answer my question?

It does. Just that most don't decide they are going to be pro rugby players until they are about 18. Those who go to rugby schools and don't play other sports would obviously be different. D Ryan didn't even start playing rugby until he was 18.

Yes I get that, but that is why more needs to be done to ensure these guys are in prime physical condition for rugby BEFORE they reach professional rugby. Or if they do start late (and if they have reached this level, meaning they are naturally talented) then the focus must be on getting them ready for this level.

Donnacha Ryan is a perfect example of a particularly wirey second row. Now we have 21 year olds like Eben Etzebeth and Iain Henderson who would eat Donnacha Ryan for breakfast. He may be aggressive and physical, but an aggressive and physical guy 10-20kg heavier will always win that round.

Sin é wrote:The Russians, Georgians etc. have a completely different physiology to us as do the Kiwi with Islander heritage. They size grade them in NZ, not age grade them because of this.

Excuses. NZs best forwards are mostly White men... and they're not Russian. McCaw, Read, Woodcock, Franks, Hore, Ratellic (spell), Romano etc.

Sin, I think you had this same mentality with Kidney in charge of Ireland, that we are always going to be worse than other nations in certain things and should just accept mediocrity. We can't improve because that is who we are. The small and boring irish.

Thankfully I doubt Schmidt will allow that sort of mentality. If there is a weakness he will work to erase it.

Rory, the best tighthead prop Ulster missed out on is Glenn Ross!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes I get that, but that is why more needs to be done to ensure these guys are in prime physical condition for rugby BEFORE they reach professional rugby. Or if they do start late (and if they have reached this level, meaning they are naturally talented) then the focus must be on getting them ready for this level.

Donnacha Ryan is a perfect example of a particularly wirey second row. Now we have 21 year olds like Eben Etzebeth and Iain Henderson who would eat Donnacha Ryan for breakfast. He may be aggressive and physical, but an aggressive and physical guy 10-20kg heavier will always win that round.

I bet Donnacha Ryan would eat both of them alive on a hurling pitch!

At least D Ryan gets to play a few games every year, unlike the unfortunate Stephen Ferris who seems to have spent a lot of time in the gym.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, I think you had this same mentality with Kidney in charge of Ireland, that we are always going to be worse than other nations in certain things and should just accept mediocrity. We can't improve because that is who we are. The small and boring irish.

Thankfully I doubt Schmidt will allow that sort of mentality. If there is a weakness he will work to erase it.

Rory, how can Ireland compete against the SH teams when it seems to be part of the Irish psychic that anyone with a SH accent good, anyone with an Irish accent bad.

Edit: Mad how Kidney even with his poor mentality had so many amazing wins right through his coaching career for instance, Toulouse in 2000, Munster beating Ireland on their way to the World Cup in '99, beating the most successful team in European rugby in a HCup final in 2008 etc. not to mention winning the U19 world cup in 1998.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, I think you had this same mentality with Kidney in charge of Ireland, that we are always going to be worse than other nations in certain things and should just accept mediocrity. We can't improve because that is who we are. The small and boring irish.

Thankfully I doubt Schmidt will allow that sort of mentality. If there is a weakness he will work to erase it.

Trapatoni has that mentality drilled into the Irish soccer players.

You wrongh, LeinsterFan. Ees eh.... mentali-tee! We need a dee mentali-tee to make a dee good fud-bole, capiche?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Donnacha Ryan is a perfect example of a particularly wirey second row. Now we have 21 year olds like Eben Etzebeth and Iain Henderson who would eat Donnacha Ryan for breakfast. He may be aggressive and physical, but an aggressive and physical guy 10-20kg heavier will always win that round.

Size does not mean strength, I am sure you aware of the different methods of weight training in terms of for strength and/or muscle hypertrophy. Henderson is actually a good reminder of this, or indeed your man Clarence, you wouldn't think he was an Olympic lifter.

I do agree with Sin's point that a lot of young sportspeople in Ireland are juggling multiple sports until a relatively late age. This has positives where you can see GAA-transferred skills in Kearney's catching or Earls' grubber kicks, for example. However GAA and soccer place such a strain on cardiovascular fitness that inevitably suits the lighter frame.

I think we do lack a bit of physicality, albeit not as much as it is being made out to be by some but the worrying thing is that what we lack in bulk isn't somewhat negated by stamina and endurance.
In the forwards I don't actually think that we are that bad off. Cian Healy is surely one of the most explosive props on the planet, and it wasn't too long ago that posters here where crying out for that rather fashionable concept of a lighter, quicker "fetcher" in the back row. It doesn't come much more physical in the back row than Ferris, SOB and Heaslip.
Interestingly I think SOB is a few kilos above his prime weight and doesn't seem as quick as he used to be, in 2011 he was a complete specimen but this year I remember the BBC commentary actually mistaking him for Mike Ross this year! Anyone with me on this? Anyway, I think I read someone highlighting Ben Morgan as the sort of physical player that Ireland need, but surely a far more athletic player is preferable, more in the Aussie or NZ mould. Or indeed Nick Williams, he is a guy who can be devastating when a team is generally on top, as Ulster have often been this season, but if his carrying is well-defended, his lack of workrate can make him more of a "luxury" player.

The backs, as excited as I am for the talent there and the guidance of Joe Schmidt, do require perhaps just one strike runner that can ignite a backline, although I certainly do not wish to see Gatland-ball tactics. Supposedly our physical backs include Bowe, Trimble and Marshall and although they are all decently built I would still say they are definitely a level below in power compared to guys like North, Tuilagi or Nonu. The only player on the island I can think of that is a true crash-ball merchant would be James Downey, but we have a plethora of young, talented players here that would be criminal to ignore. Frustratingly, for my money Conor Murray would be our physically strongest player from 9-15 playing in traditionally the smallest player's position.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think the main problem is a large fear from parents that lifting heavy weights will ruin their children's development. Which, although understandable that they would be so protective, is so unfounded and outdated.

Rory I was at a seminar with Chris Shiels last year and the problems are at schools level, where the guys aren't doing the required strength and conditioning work. They are lifting heavy weights but have lots of muscle imbalances meaning when the come into the academies they have to start from scratch doing core work and body weight exercises, light resistance for a few years to sort this out before they can load them back up with heavy weights.

In NZ the pro coaches are involved with the schools and all the players are on proper programs so once the players come into the academies they are good to go skills and conditioning wise, which is what Afoa was eluding to.

Chris and Brian McLaughlin are now trying to change this and work in the schools getting the lads doing more core work, grappling type stuff. Its a major reason we have so many injuries too.

In RL they have the academy kids doing clean and jerks, overhead presses and core compound exercises from 13-14 with very low weights or body weight, emphasising correct form and technique. They build up the central nervous system and then when they are developed at 17-18 they can just bang huge weight on.

theslosty wrote: Frustratingly, for my money Conor Murray would be our physically strongest player from 9-15 playing in traditionally the smallest player's position.

Murray physically strongest player from nine to fifteen? Have you seen Bowe recently? Crash ball mightn't be his prefered way but that's just a subtle style difference. It could easily be given more emphasis in his game if Schmidt wanted to go down that route. Niko Malawalu was making a few much bigger men than him blush last night as he punched through and often dragged them with him in his wake. It's a technique of hitting at the right speed (momentum) and then using twisting and turning to extract yourself from hands trying to cling. It's not all power in strike running as you alluded to in your earliest paragraph.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes I get that, but that is why more needs to be done to ensure these guys are in prime physical condition for rugby BEFORE they reach professional rugby. Or if they do start late (and if they have reached this level, meaning they are naturally talented) then the focus must be on getting them ready for this level.

Donnacha Ryan is a perfect example of a particularly wirey second row. Now we have 21 year olds like Eben Etzebeth and Iain Henderson who would eat Donnacha Ryan for breakfast. He may be aggressive and physical, but an aggressive and physical guy 10-20kg heavier will always win that round.

I bet Donnacha Ryan would eat both of them alive on a hurling pitch!

At least D Ryan gets to play a few games every year, unlike the unfortunate Stephen Ferris who seems to have spent a lot of time in the gym.

Wow, a professional rugby player would be able to beat other professional rugby players in a game of hurling! What a useful skill!

And it is extremely naive and silly to say that the reason Ferris is always injured is due to handling weights in the gym. There are plenty of other huge players who aren't as injury prone. And plenty of smaller guys (like Fitz) who are very injury prone. What a useless argument.

theslosty wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Donnacha Ryan is a perfect example of a particularly wirey second row. Now we have 21 year olds like Eben Etzebeth and Iain Henderson who would eat Donnacha Ryan for breakfast. He may be aggressive and physical, but an aggressive and physical guy 10-20kg heavier will always win that round.

Size does not mean strength

Not always, but generally it actually does. The heaviest guys will almost always be capable of lifting heavier weights. That is why in Weightlifting there are weight classes. Clarence competes as a 94kg lifter, but he would NEVER be able to compete with the heavyweights or super heavyweights. Unless he gained the weight required to move up in weight classes. It is a fair way of gauging someone's abilities within a particular weight division.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think the main problem is a large fear from parents that lifting heavy weights will ruin their children's development. Which, although understandable that they would be so protective, is so unfounded and outdated.

Rory I was at a seminar with Chris Shiels last year and the problems are at schools level, where the guys aren't doing the required strength and conditioning work. They are lifting heavy weights but have lots of muscle imbalances meaning when the come into the academies they have to start from scratch doing core work and body weight exercises, light resistance for a few years to sort this out before they can load them back up with heavy weights.

In NZ the pro coaches are involved with the schools and all the players are on proper programs so once the players come into the academies they are good to go skills and conditioning wise, which is what Afoa was eluding to.

Chris and Brian McLaughlin are now trying to change this and work in the schools getting the lads doing more core work, grappling type stuff. Its a major reason we have so many injuries too.

In RL they have the academy kids doing clean and jerks, overhead presses and core compound exercises from 13-14 with very low weights or body weight, emphasising correct form and technique. They build up the central nervous system and then when they are developed at 17-18 they can just bang huge weight on.

Plus in school we don't know any better than to do bench press and curls for the gurls. Plus a hatred for squats. Which leads to extreme shoulder and knee problems. Balance is key as you say.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes I get that, but that is why more needs to be done to ensure these guys are in prime physical condition for rugby BEFORE they reach professional rugby. Or if they do start late (and if they have reached this level, meaning they are naturally talented) then the focus must be on getting them ready for this level.

Donnacha Ryan is a perfect example of a particularly wirey second row. Now we have 21 year olds like Eben Etzebeth and Iain Henderson who would eat Donnacha Ryan for breakfast. He may be aggressive and physical, but an aggressive and physical guy 10-20kg heavier will always win that round.

I bet Donnacha Ryan would eat both of them alive on a hurling pitch!

At least D Ryan gets to play a few games every year, unlike the unfortunate Stephen Ferris who seems to have spent a lot of time in the gym.

Wow, a professional rugby player would be able to beat other professional rugby players in a game of hurling! What a useful skill!

And it is extremely naive and silly to say that the reason Ferris is always injured is due to handling weights in the gym. There are plenty of other huge players who aren't as injury prone. And plenty of smaller guys (like Fitz) who are very injury prone. What a useless argument.

I still think it's fair to say Ferris' body mass doesn't exactly help with his injuries. I can think of a few examples across sport where players have had to lose muscle mass to prevent further injury damage.

Another thing to mention is that Nick Williams actually has an extremely good workrate for someone of his side. I don't agree he is a luxury player. He is always in the thick of action.

I don't know about O'Brien getting bigger either, I think he has looked the same sort of size. However if he has bulked up, then yes, he never needed to. However someone like O'Mahony could definitely add to his frame. Henderson is just bulky, his legs are huge, and he may not look muscular but he weighs more than any other irish second row (apparently). It is scary that he looks like he could carry even more bulk.

theslosty wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes I get that, but that is why more needs to be done to ensure these guys are in prime physical condition for rugby BEFORE they reach professional rugby. Or if they do start late (and if they have reached this level, meaning they are naturally talented) then the focus must be on getting them ready for this level.

Donnacha Ryan is a perfect example of a particularly wirey second row. Now we have 21 year olds like Eben Etzebeth and Iain Henderson who would eat Donnacha Ryan for breakfast. He may be aggressive and physical, but an aggressive and physical guy 10-20kg heavier will always win that round.

I bet Donnacha Ryan would eat both of them alive on a hurling pitch!

At least D Ryan gets to play a few games every year, unlike the unfortunate Stephen Ferris who seems to have spent a lot of time in the gym.

Wow, a professional rugby player would be able to beat other professional rugby players in a game of hurling! What a useful skill!

And it is extremely naive and silly to say that the reason Ferris is always injured is due to handling weights in the gym. There are plenty of other huge players who aren't as injury prone. And plenty of smaller guys (like Fitz) who are very injury prone. What a useless argument.

I still think it's fair to say Ferris' body mass doesn't exactly help with his injuries. I can think of a few examples across sport where players have had to lose muscle mass to prevent further injury damage.

I could again find equally as many situations where a player has had to add to his frame to avoid injury. Why would his muscle mass increase the chances of his injury, might I ask? I don't think that is his problem.

SecretFly wrote:

theslosty wrote: Frustratingly, for my money Conor Murray would be our physically strongest player from 9-15 playing in traditionally the smallest player's position.

Murray physically strongest player from nine to fifteen? Have you seen Bowe recently? Crash ball mightn't be his prefered way but that's just a subtle style difference. It could easily be given more emphasis in his game if Schmidt wanted to go down that route. Niko Malawalu was making a few much bigger men than him blush last night as he punched through and often dragged them with him in his wake. It's a technique of hitting at the right speed (momentum) and then using twisting and turning to extract yourself from hands trying to cling. It's not all power in strike running as you alluded to in your earliest paragraph.

That's true but I more see Bowe as a strike runner who goes in with the intention to break defensive lines and score trie. This will generally occur when Ireland/Ulster are on the front foot, with the momentum and twisting/turning that you have mentioned. Whereas Ireland just might benefit from a player, as prehistoric as it sounds, on static ball just looks to smash into contact and set up a platform, prime example Jamie Roberts. Ideally of course you'd rather have a player who can do this when required but also has the handling and footwork that some of our own prospects (Madigan, Olding, Marshall, Fitz) can offer.

A lot could change of course if Schmidt transforms our tactics, as Leinster have done ok without this sort of player.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Another thing to mention is that Nick Williams actually has an extremely good workrate for someone of his side. I don't agree he is a luxury player. He is always in the thick of action.

I don't know about O'Brien getting bigger either, I think he has looked the same sort of size. However if he has bulked up, then yes, he never needed to. However someone like O'Mahony could definitely add to his frame. Henderson is just bulky, his legs are huge, and he may not look muscular but he weighs more than any other irish second row (apparently). It is scary that he looks like he could carry even more bulk.

I would obviously not have seen as much of Nick Williams as you Rory, but one thing I do remember is that Munster in Ravenhill knew how to stop him.

Another one to suffer from excessive gym work I think is Jerry Flannery. His frame couldn't carry his bulk.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

theslosty wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes I get that, but that is why more needs to be done to ensure these guys are in prime physical condition for rugby BEFORE they reach professional rugby. Or if they do start late (and if they have reached this level, meaning they are naturally talented) then the focus must be on getting them ready for this level.

Donnacha Ryan is a perfect example of a particularly wirey second row. Now we have 21 year olds like Eben Etzebeth and Iain Henderson who would eat Donnacha Ryan for breakfast. He may be aggressive and physical, but an aggressive and physical guy 10-20kg heavier will always win that round.

I bet Donnacha Ryan would eat both of them alive on a hurling pitch!

At least D Ryan gets to play a few games every year, unlike the unfortunate Stephen Ferris who seems to have spent a lot of time in the gym.

Wow, a professional rugby player would be able to beat other professional rugby players in a game of hurling! What a useful skill!

And it is extremely naive and silly to say that the reason Ferris is always injured is due to handling weights in the gym. There are plenty of other huge players who aren't as injury prone. And plenty of smaller guys (like Fitz) who are very injury prone. What a useless argument.

I still think it's fair to say Ferris' body mass doesn't exactly help with his injuries. I can think of a few examples across sport where players have had to lose muscle mass to prevent further injury damage.

I could again find equally as many situations where a player has had to add to his frame to avoid injury. Why would his muscle mass increase the chances of his injury, might I ask? I don't think that is his problem.

You're right about players similarly adding bulk but whilst I am no physiological expert by any means, I would imagine a heavier body mass increases the impact forces imposed on joints, particularly the knee or ankle.

Too simplified here when talking about muscle mass - good or bad.

Good if it's the right muscle created in the right way for the right reasons to assist in a specific sport.
Swimmers wouldn't make the best track sprinters
...track sprinters wouldn't make the best gymnasts,
...gymnasts would make the best swimmers.

So sometimes players are perhaps doing things the wrong way for the game they want to play. I've always looked at Fionn Carr. He has a bulked up appearance but it seems to be much more bounce-ready than impact resistant! Much of it seems superficial, like an actor hulking out for a role, rather than a player expecting trouble coming at him by the ton.

So, it's about doing it right, not just doing it period.

Where is bluesman when you need him!

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete I said on another thread that our next properly viable 13 is at Ulster.

Whether its Cave, Bowe or Payne I'm not sure.

It won't be Cave or Bowe. Some of you folks forget that Earls got picked for a Lions tour playing at centre as a 20 year old with one international cap. If either of those 2 do play centre for Ireland, it will be because someone else is injured.

As an aside, reports on Munsterfans are that Leinster are now raiding Munster schools for back's talent and are about to offer an academy contract to Greg O'Shea (Crescent College). He has a choice to make between athletics and rugby, but seems to be veering towards rugby.

Coals to Newcastle, SIN. Man, you crack me up.

We have sent ye 2 of the most exciting, young, backs talents over the last few years. Leinster Way reared and trained. The best teams in the Jeff would have given their eye-teeth to have em both. The harsh Truth is, we can afford it. Ye cant.

Welcome to the Leinster Way. Ye lot are now 2 or 3 years behind us, and are fast trying to emulate us, with limited success so far. Or haven't ye realised that yet? Ulster are getting closer though. At all levels in the Province. Like Dawson, Humphreys is one Cute Hoor with a vision. That's the common spur, between the oldest rivals in the Game. At the business-end of the Season, we all know in which order the provinces are truly placed.

I just love watching the big games as a neutral. Don't you? It's liberating. Apparently...

Love you.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't know about O'Brien getting bigger either, I think he has looked the same sort of size. However if he has bulked up, then yes, he never needed to. However someone like O'Mahony could definitely add to his frame.

According to the IRFU website, POM weighs in a single pound heavier than SOB, and an inch taller. I think you may have a point about Ryan but for me POM's supposed lack of physicality is a complete myth.

Admittedly these images are cherry-picked but even so...
2011:


2013:

I really struggle to believe those stats regarding O'Mahony and O'Brien. O'Brien is 3 cm smaller (allegedly) and looks very bulky. O'Mahony just looks wirey (like Donnacha Ryan). The difference between him and Hendy (who also looks heavier than he is) is that Hendy has huge legs. O'Mahony just looks quite skinny.

According to the stats, O'Mahony is bigger than Jerome Kaino. I do not believe that.