Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

Sad to lose Howlett he is a great player and was a real character in the Munster team.

Paul O'Connell as captain again or......Peter O'Mahoney???

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sad to lose Howlett he is a great player and was a real character in the Munster team.

Just curious, how do you know what sort of character he is? He hardly ever seems to be interviewed. Any time I have seen him interviewed it seems very rehearsed and deviod of any real insight into his character.

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sad to lose Howlett he is a great player and was a real character in the Munster team.

Just curious, how do you know what sort of character he is? He hardly ever seems to be interviewed. Any time I have seen him interviewed it seems very rehearsed and deviod of any real insight into his character.

Met him twice, always seemed real sound.

6 uncapped players. Marmion, Olding, Hagan, Sherry, O'Donnell, Henshaw.


Ireland Squad (North American Tour - USA & Canada)

Props: Court, Kilcoyne, Fitzpatrick, Hagan, Ross
Hookers: Best, Sherry, Strauss
Locks: McCarthy, Tuohy, Toner, Henderson
Backrow: Henry, McLaughlin, O'Donnell, O'Mahony

Scrumhalves: Boss, Marmion, Marshall
Flyhalves: Jackson, Madigan
Centres: Cave, McFadden, Olding
Wingers: Trimble, Zebo
Fullbacks: Jones, Henshaw

Emerging Ireland Squad (Tblisi Cup, Georgia)

Props: McGrath, J Ryan, Bent, Lutton, Moore
Hookers: Cronin, Herring
Locks: Foley, Nagle, Stevenson
Backrow: D Ryan, Diack, Murphy, Ruddock, McKeon

Scrumhalves: Cooney, Heaney
Flyhalves: Keatley, Marsh
Centres: Griffin, Macken, Allen
Wingers: Conway, Kearney, Morris
Fullback: O'Halloran

A number of players were not considered due to injury including;
Stephen Ferris, Eoin Reddan, Luke Fitzgerald, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, David McSharry, Keith Earls, Stephen Archer.

So two tours this summer- Ireland sans Lions will play two tests in a North-American mini-tour against Canada and the USA, whilst an 'Emerging Ireland' team (which consists of whoever is left in Irish rugby basically) will travel to Georgia to compete in the new Tblisi Cup.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/29180.php

Ireland Squad (North American Tour - USA & Canada)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Tom Court (Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Jamie Hagan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Kevin McLaughlin (St. Marys/Leinster)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)*
Stuart Olding (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Emerging Ireland Squad (Tblisi Cup, Georgia)

Michael Allen (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Michael Bent (Leinster)
Andrew Conway (Blackrock/Leinster)*
John Cooney (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's/Leinster)
David Foley (UL Bohemian/Munster)*
Eoin Griffin (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Cathal Marsh (Dublin University/Leinster)*
Michael Heaney (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Robert Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)*
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
Richard Lutton (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Brendan Macken (Blackrock/Leinster)*
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's/Leinster)*
Eoin McKeon (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
Niall Morris (Leicester/Exiles)*
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
Ian Nagle (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)*
Tiernan O'Halloran (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary's/Leinster)
Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
Lewis Stevenson (Malone/Ulster)*

Rory Best is to Captain the test side. Only notable omission on form is the very unfortunate Robbie Diack who will have to content himself with a place in the second string. Certainly he'd feel he had the edge on form over Henderson, McLaughlin and O'Mahony in recent weeks- probably just international experience that sees them ahead of him. It would be a bit of a travesty if Henderson leapfrogged him for the Rabo final but thats tactical- the potential of Henderson is greater. Other than that its a fairly uncontroversial selection.

Craig Gilroy is also missing, and is not listed as injured. He's not been picked for Ulster in our last few games due to (I believe) a groin problem so maybe just rested over the summer after a big breakthrough season in green.

Out and out strongest team from that;

Court, Best, Ross
McCarthy, Tuohy
Henderson, O'Mahony, Henry
Boss, Madigan
Olding, Cave
Zebo, Henshaw, Trimble

Best for developing future internationals;

Kilcoyne, Best, Hagan
Tuohy, Toner
Henderson, O'Mahony, O'Donnell
Marmion, Jackson
Olding, Henshaw
Zebo, Jones, Trimble

Still hard to believe Best will be on this tour and not the Lions.

Yeah, but its better to take him than not. Still think Cronin might end up joining Strauss as hooker for this one if someone takes a knock.

PROPS
David Kilcoyne, Tom Court, Mike Ross, Declan Fitzpatrick, Jamie Hagan
HOOKERS
Rory Best, Mike Sherry, Richardt Strauss
LOCKS
Mike McCarthy, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner
BACKROW
Iain Henderson, Kevin McLaughlin, Tommy O'Donnell, Chris Henry, Peter O'Mahony
SCRUMHALF
Isaac Boss, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall
OUTHALF
Paddy Jackson, Ian Madigan
CENTRE
Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Fergus McFadden
BACK THREE
Simon Zebo, Andrew Trimble, Robbie Henshaw, Felix Jones

I would say that this squad is maybe a bit thin on back three cover.

Craig Gilroy medical update; http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11483.php

Rehabbing for next season, basically.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Still hard to believe Best will be on this tour and not the Lions.

even harder to believe that Notch thinks he will be in Georgia and the US at the same time.

No JJ Hanrahan.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Still hard to believe Best will be on this tour and not the Lions.

even harder to believe that Notch thinks he will be in Georgia and the US at the same time.

?

My posts above about developing future internationals refer to the main tour.

Olding and McFadden can both play in the back three so there is enough cover.

Topics merged.

Donnacha Ryan is rested but according to Kiss "could play tomorrow if he is selected for the Lions."

Will Schmidt have any involvement?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Will Schmidt have any involvement?

He'll be there. I presume he had a say in some of the selections too.

Can't complain with any of the uncapped players selected. They all look good players.

Schmidt will be there as an observer............. who might say a few things to the players.............. and suggest something or other at half time..... etc.

I'm sure he'll respect Kiss's formal role and not involve himself too much ..but also, I'm sure little discussions between the two won't be discouraged by Kiss himself. He's no longer looking for the big job himself and he's already got a job secured. Schmidt will have some input, I'm sure

I'm excited and optimistic about the Schmidt era.

He did walk into a top class Leinster team and brought the best out of them. Turning around a losing, fairly shambolic test side is a different job.

But in my mind (hopefully!!!) it's more like two tables with identical ingredients on them that would go towards making a top class meal. At one table is a Pub cook, and at the other table is an internationally renowned chef.

Same ingredients, two markedly different dishes might be expected.

Schmidt isn't a miracle worker. I'm sure he'd lay that one on the line clearly if asked. He needs raw ingredients. Yes, he already had them at Leinster and I believe he has them overall in Ireland too. I believe the only reason he took the job is because he's been thinking of Irish potential long before his name came up... and his desire to hang around and lead is a sign that he feels the ingredients are on the table.

Some strange calls along with the majority being as expected:

1) McLaughlin for Diack
Think Diack is the form backrow at the moment with Henry, McLaughlin was poor up until a week ago. Joe does like Kev though.

2) Sherry over Cronin.
I think Cronin has been excellent for the last month or two or even three. His lineout hasn't been great but then again very few hookers' have. He's looked great in the loose.

3) Jones over Conway
I think Jones has been really poor for the last while and in the last month Conway has looked electric, scoring tries, setting up tries, making those breaks and halfbreaks. I have no idea how Jones got ahead.

More importantly:
Will these games be televised by RTE/TG4 etc???

BT Vision .................. The new age is upon us

Why would Donnacha Ryan not be on tour? If he did get a call from the Lions he would at least be match fit and if not he would be important for continuity to the spine of the Ireland tourists.

SecretFly wrote:BT Vision .................. The new age is upon us

Are they the only ones covering it?

The Great Aukster wrote:Why would Donnacha Ryan not be on tour? If he did get a call from the Lions he would at least be match fit and if not he would be important for continuity to the spine of the Ireland tourists.

Shoulder injury- obviously for the Lions he's going to go whatever about that.

The Great Aukster wrote:Why would Donnacha Ryan not be on tour? If he did get a call from the Lions he would at least be match fit and if not he would be important for continuity to the spine of the Ireland tourists.

Reading between the lines; he is carrying an injury but will play through it if the Lions phone him.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Some strange calls along with the majority being as expected:

1) McLaughlin for Diack
Think Diack is the form backrow at the moment with Henry, McLaughlin was poor up until a week ago. Joe does like Kev though.

2) Sherry over Cronin.
I think Cronin has been excellent for the last month or two or even three. His lineout hasn't been great but then again very few hookers' have. He's looked great in the loose.

3) Jones over Conway
I think Jones has been really poor for the last while and in the last month Conway has looked electric, scoring tries, setting up tries, making those breaks and halfbreaks. I have no idea how Jones got ahead.

More importantly:
Will these games be televised by RTE/TG4 etc???

Agree with all of the above bar no.2. I think the majority would have Sherry ahead of Cronin. He's probably the best thrower we have and also better at the breakdown than Cronin. Cronin has been in very good form but just unlucky Best isn't a Lion. Put it this way, who would you rather start in an important match?

I would also deem Keatley a tad unlucky.

Does the Emerging Ireland team count as an "A" side? If not maybe they want to have a look at Diack at a representative level without committing him to Ireland?

Alternatively maybe they just want to save the embarrassment of having more than one project in the squad at a time!

red_stag wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why would Donnacha Ryan not be on tour? If he did get a call from the Lions he would at least be match fit and if not he would be important for continuity to the spine of the Ireland tourists.

Reading between the lines; he is carrying an injury but will play through it if the Lions phone him.

I hope he does not get called up then. That could be bad news for him for the 2013/14 season.

Two decent looking squads there which highlight we aren't too bad in the depth department these days but maybe are a bit shy of truly world players. There's not a lot between those squads on paper.

Hopefully a few guys will step up to grasp this opportunity, regardless of which tour they are on.

I wonder if JJ is injured.

Mental thinking that Bent was called for to be 1st choice after Ross had a bad game in the AI and now he is behind Archer, Fitzpatrick, Hagan and of course Ross.

Fall from grace or what....

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I wonder if JJ is injured.

Isn't JJ being held back by Penney until he becomes the complete player?

rodders wrote:Two decent looking squads there which highlight we aren't too bad in the depth department these days but maybe are a bit shy of truly world players. There's not a lot between those squads on paper.

Hopefully a few guys will step up to grasp this opportunity, regardless of which tour they are on.

Nice comment rodders. I feel that too....and I feel it'll happen too. And I actually think it's a nice break up as not only will each grouping be looking at the opponents.... but they'll also be keeping an eye on each other.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:Two decent looking squads there which highlight we aren't too bad in the depth department these days but maybe are a bit shy of truly world players. There's not a lot between those squads on paper.

Hopefully a few guys will step up to grasp this opportunity, regardless of which tour they are on.

Nice comment rodders. I feel that too....and I feel it'll happen too. And I actually think it's a nice break up as not only will each grouping be looking at the opponents.... but they'll also be keeping an eye on each other.

That's a good way of looking at it actually. Healthy competition and all that.

Anyone else surprised that Ross has been included? I thought he'd have been given a rest.

The Great Aukster wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I wonder if JJ is injured.

Isn't JJ being held back by Penney until he becomes the complete player?

really?? surely going on the tour to Georgia would be good for him considering the lack of game time he got this season.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I wonder if JJ is injured.

Isn't JJ being held back by Penney until he becomes the complete player?

really?? surely going on the tour to Georgia would be good for him considering the lack of game time he got this season.

I was trying to be ironic but hey...

Yes, he deserves to be in Georgia more than Marsh, and has probably played more than him too.

Ye he has played way more than Marsh. Marsh only got 20 mins against Zebre and thats it.

the team I'd select to play America

Court-Best-Hagan
Henderson-Tuohy
McL-POM-Henry
Boss-Madigan
Olding-Cave
Zebo-Henshaw-Trimble

Strauss-Kilcoyne-Ross-Toner-TOD-Marmion-Jackson-McFadden

Inexperienced second row so went for a strong front row with Court and Best and the very in form Hagan. Tuohy and Henderson are mobile, able to shift the beef and both can run a lineout. To balance this I went for the most experienced backrow I could.

Boss to add direction to a very inexperienced midfield and flyhalf. Trimble and Zebo to do the same for Henshaw

How is James Coughlan not included in either squad.

Without a doubt the best player to never get a cap for Ireland.

red_stag wrote:How is James Coughlan not included in either squad.

Without a doubt the best player to never get a cap for Ireland.

\

Hard to argue; think the boat has now sailed on Coughlan. Considered to be too old. It's like he's Munsters Bryn Cunningham.

I strongly feel both he and Robbie Diack are better options than McLaughlin- not really sure what McLaughlin has done to get on this tour tbh.

Diack has had an excellent 6 months and is well deserving of his call up.

However, this is off the back of 3 fairly mediocre seasons. He needs to keep this this form going to prove he has the mettle - physical and mental - to be a top player. There's no doubt he is a good athlete with classy skill set when on form but when off it he can be dire. This is a great opportunity for him to put his hand up for the senior side.

McLaughlin isn't the flashiest player but hes a good solid all round No6 whos been in and around Heino and International level for a few seasons. I rate him above O'Mahoney to be honest.

I watched back the second test against the All Blacks the other day and in all fairness McLaughlin was outstanding in that game.

Diack's form is significantly better and I probably would have brought him myself

I am really surprised more people aren't questioning Jones' inclusion????

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I am really surprised more people aren't questioning Jones' inclusion????

There's not many specialist fullbacks around so I don't see a big problem giving him another chance. He's shown he has the ability in the past, he just needs to prove his fitness and durability.

To me he's in the same bracket as Fitzgerald.

James Hart should have been called into the emerging squad. Can play 9 and 10 and can kick. We need to lock him down with Ireland.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:James Hart should have been called into the emerging squad. Can play 9 and 10 and can kick. We need to lock him down with Ireland.

The lad playing for Grenoble. I didnt think he was anywhere near their first team?

Yep him. He is regularly in the matchday 23 and He started against Toulose a couple of weeks ago. He looked good. He has also kicked for Grenoble.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Yep him. He is regularly in the matchday 23 and He started against Toulose a couple of weeks ago. He looked good. He has also kicked for Grenoble.

Ah very good. I like the way that the French scrumhalves are. There appears to be a culture in France of the scrumhalf being the general of the backline rather than the flyhalf. We see that with Pienaar at Ulster and I think Ireland could do with our #9s offering more than they do. We can all name Morgan Parra, Dimitri Yachvili, Fabien Galthien, Jean Bapiste Ellisalde, Freddy Michalak as scrumhalves who do or have done a good job of controlling the game.

Be interested to see what he would bring.