Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:POM named captain of the tour. Just as well Kidney isn't there or it would be called Munster bias.

I can only assume that Kidney's bias has rubbed off on Kiss.

Even worse he was picked to go...as well as Zebo and a few more Munster players that Kidney has had ...er nothing to do with their development as players............but hey you keep that Lulster thing going... I guess in the rabo final there were no losers only winners...

I mean Cave is going so clearly there is a requirement for filling quotas with mediocre players...along with most of the Ulster team bar possibly one....

Check you out, backs to the wall, everyone hates us!

There is no Lulster, there's the team from up north, and there's Leinster "the greatest team in the history of European rugby" - you remember right?

First of all talking in the past is completely correct...well done you.

Secondly in the spirit of the examination season that will be upon the youth of this country next week...

If X = Number of times Toulouse have won the Heineken Cup and Y = Number of Times Leinster have won the Heineken Cup and Z = Delusional Factor for Leinster supporters....

Solve how Y > X using Z....

Selective sampling Mr O'D -

Mickado wrote:"the greatest team in the history of European rugby"

C1 - I expected better...

So Toulouse aren't a team?

Z has had a sudden increase in size by the look of things...

Y > X using Z?

There is something wrong with that equation....

Em... W for Wealth should be factored in. Toulouse having even more loot than them big loot, lacadaisical, lazy-arsed lay-abouts, Clermont.

(Y + Z) > (X + W)

SecretFly wrote:Y > X using Z?

There is something wrong with that equation....

Em... W for Wealth should be factored in. Toulouse having even more loot than them big loot, lacadaisical, lazy-arsed lay-abouts, Clermont.

(Y + Z) > (X + W)

If taking wealth into account as well you would need to differentiate the difference between Z and W....in relation to the weighting for X and Y.

The answer is clearly 3.14159265359

By the way, don't know if it's been mentioned earlier but TG$ showing both games live.

Dheimhnigh TG4 go bhfuil cearta eisiacha craolta faighte aige don dá chluiche idirnáisiúnta a imreoidh foireann shinsear na hÉireann ar a turas go Meiriceá Thuaidh an mhí seo chugainn. Tabharfaidh an fhoireann shinsear aghaidh ar Mheiriceá Thuaidh an mhí seo chugainn.

Imreoidh siad Stáit Aontaithe Mheiriceá sa Staid BBVA Compass i Houston, Texas ar an Domhnach 9 Meitheamh (am na hÉireann). Seachtain dar gcionn, tabharfaidh siad aghaidh ar Cheanada i bPáirc BMO i Toronto.

Dé Domhnaigh - 9/6/13
USA v Éire (Sinsir)
Ionad : Staid BBVA Compass, Houston, TX
Am: 1:20am (Am na hÉireann) Beo ar TG4

**Beidh iarchraoladh iomlán ar TG4 tar éis Mheánlae ar an Domhnach**


Dé Domhnaigh - 16/6/13
Ceanada v Éire (Sinsir)
Ionad : Páirc BMO, Toronto, Ceanada
Am: 1:20am (Am na hÉireann) Beo ar TG4

**Beidh iarchraoladh iomlán ar TG4 tar éis Mheánlae ar an Domhnach

DOD wrote:So Toulouse aren't a team?

Z has had a sudden increase in size by the look of things...

They certainly are, but no Toulouse team was every as successful as the Leinster team of the last few years.

Thats just a run of good form Mick.

red_stag wrote:Thats just a run of good form Mick.

It's certainly has put me in good form.

Mickado wrote:

red_stag wrote:Thats just a run of good form Mick.

It's certainly has put me in good form.

It had me feeling blue

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:So Toulouse aren't a team?

Z has had a sudden increase in size by the look of things...

They certainly are, but no Toulouse team was every as successful as the Leinster team of the last few years.

Z is now exponential and rising...

Is it that they won 3 in four years? But the team in 2012 had changed by 2/3rds since 09? What about reaching 3 finals in a row winning two, being always thereabouts for the knockout stages...you know getting past the pool stages ...

Best team in Europe is Toulouse...the number of wins don't lie....but your mind is clearly playing tricks on you.

DOD wrote:

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:So Toulouse aren't a team?

Z has had a sudden increase in size by the look of things...

They certainly are, but no Toulouse team was every as successful as the Leinster team of the last few years.

Z is now exponential and rising...

Is it that they won 3 in four years? But the team in 2012 had changed by 2/3rds since 09? What about reaching 3 finals in a row winning two, being always thereabouts for the knockout stages...you know getting past the pool stages ...

Best team in Europe is Toulouse...the number of wins don't lie....but your mind is clearly playing tricks on you.

"Always there or thereabouts?" they were knocked out in the pool stages this year. And then didn't try a leg in the Amlin, which even Munster managed to win ONE game in!

DOD wrote:
Is it that they won 3 in four years? But the team in 2012 had changed by 2/3rds since 09? What about reaching 3 finals in a row winning two, being always thereabouts for the knockout stages...you know getting past the pool stages ...

Best team in Europe is Toulouse...the number of wins don't lie....but your mind is clearly playing tricks on you.

Best team of all time is certainly Toulouse but Leinster are unquestionably second followed by Wasps in third.

Leinster have never lost a European final they were involved in. How about factoring that into the equation too. Lets call it E - for Energy Preservation whilst going for Titles.

That would change the percetion of Toulouse and suggest they used a lot of energy to get their hands on four HCs, whilst Leinster used much less getting their three.

SecretFly wrote:Leinster have never lost a European final they were involved in. How about factoring that into the equation too. Lets call it E - for Energy Preservation whilst going for Titles.

That would change the percetion of Toulouse and suggest they used a lot of energy to get their hands on four HCs, whilst Leinster used much less getting their three.

You could include T for time it took to win the competition since it began. The equation should also include a factor D for how long more it will be until it is won again.

Submachine wrote:By the way, don't know if it's been mentioned earlier but TG$ showing both games live.

Cheers. TG4 once again putting RTE to shame.

DOD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Leinster have never lost a European final they were involved in. How about factoring that into the equation too. Lets call it E - for Energy Preservation whilst going for Titles.

That would change the percetion of Toulouse and suggest they used a lot of energy to get their hands on four HCs, whilst Leinster used much less getting their three.

You could include T for time it took to win the competition since it began. The equation should also include a factor D for how long more it will be until it is won again.

That's X, Y, Z, W, E, T and D?

This is getting a little too complicated for my non-numerically-savvy brain, DOD. I'll leave the working out of all that to you. Let me know what the results are and I'll decide if you've missed another letter.... depending on how badly the results look for Leinster....

profitius wrote:

Submachine wrote:By the way, don't know if it's been mentioned earlier but TG$ showing both games live.

Cheers. TG4 once again putting RTE to shame.

That's the RTE that partially controls it and partially funds it?

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:

Submachine wrote:By the way, don't know if it's been mentioned earlier but TG$ showing both games live.

Cheers. TG4 once again putting RTE to shame.

That's the RTE that partially controls it and partially funds it?

Partially being the key word there.

Olding cleared for the tour so Downey stays

Is Olding out or in Stand?

He is in. Was a doubt with an ankle injury but trained fully today. Thought I wrote "Downey stays behind" above apologies.

I think he is a cert for the 12 shirt on the tour which will give him a big advantage going into the Schmidt era.

Long term the 12 shirt could be between Olding and Marshall. I can see Schmidt rotating the team alot. I think Luke Marshall is a very good player and saw him as being the long term 12 for Ireland but then along comes Olding. Olding is a flexible player though so Schmidt might have other plans for him yet.


On this tour I'd like to see Olding, Madigan, Marmion and Henshaw start the games. They pack some serious try scoring potential. Hopefully working with Schmidt will bring on these players. Henshaw in particular looks a little raw to me so far but he has more potantial that Felix Jones.


Kiss and Schmidt has selected this squad. They've been talking all along and probably talked about the captaincy too. The team will also play the Schmidt way. I would be surprised if they didn't. Schmist has a limited time to work with them as it is so no doubt he'll want to get that ball rolling straight away.

Will they look at moving olding to 13 as well. Not for this tour I think but he played there at the JRWC outside Farrell who is another to come into contention. It's an embarrassment of (potential) riches. Olding being able to play on this tour merely means he has a little head start on the likes of Marshall and Farrell. Let's not forget olding probably wouldn't have got the gametime he has this season had Farrell not done his knee iirc

Has the game of scrable finished? It was getting LUDOcrous.

TAXI!!!!!!

Eh, what is JJ Hanrahan doing for the summer? He isn't with the U-20's and isn't with either squad named for the tours. Have I missed an injury or something? Apologies if I am merely out of the loop on this one, but his ommision from all three squad's seems muchos bizarre to me, it is not like we have 7 or 8 outhalf options after all.

debaters1 wrote:Eh, what is JJ Hanrahan doing for the summer? He isn't with the U-20's and isn't with either squad named for the tours. Have I missed an injury or something? Apologies if I am merely out of the loop on this one, but his ommision from all three squad's seems muchos bizarre to me, it is not like we have 7 or 8 outhalf options after all.

It looks like he was named in the emerging Ireland squad but got withdrawn. I think he had just 2 weeks off in almost 2 years. I think Munster made the correct call there.

Profitius took the words right out of my mouth. Apparently he was named in emerging Ireland squad but was withdrawn following discussions between Munster and IRFU.

It was agreed that the best thing for Hanrahan is a rest period and a preseason to prepare him for the transition from last year (started 5 games) to this season when he will probably be involved in nearly all match day squads barring injury.

Ah right, that makes 100% sense and player management is uber important even for 21 year old's so good call by all concerned, had forgotten that with the juniors last season and his 'A' and club games he has been on the go for quite a while. Good stuff. Put the feet up, have a few beers and a curry or two and have some actual weight to lose when the conditioning and pre season kicks in as ya need to have the fat to burn so you can burn the fat.

red_stag wrote:Profitius took the words right out of my mouth. Apparently he was named in emerging Ireland squad but was withdrawn following discussions between Munster and IRFU.

It was agreed that the best thing for Hanrahan is a rest period and a preseason to prepare him for the transition from last year (started 5 games) to this season when he will probably be involved in nearly all match day squads barring injury.

This is what Ulster did with Jackson and the U20s last year could we Hanrahan being as prominent next season?

Really loved watching Hanrahan play when on the few occasions I have seen him theres a real class about his game hope he can step up to be starting 10 for Munster, we could end up with 4 top class 10s battling it out for Ireland in the coming years

Marty,

It will certainly be less daunting for him to over come Keatley than Ronan O'Gara.

ROG's retirement will be difficult. He was such a handy guy to rely upon. But his departure gives an opportunity to JJ Hanrahan.

Will he be employed as an alternative to Keatley though or Downey? I thought the plan was to bring him through at 12 initially but isnt Deasy off as well so Munster would be looking very bare if JJ wasnt being considered at 10.

Well, I heard chat on another thread that an NIQ spot might be used by Munster for an Outhalf, to ease the burden on JJ and Keatley, as either/or are an injury to someone else away from an Ireland squad* but if the Munster finances being so farked as per yet another thread, I'd rather just trust the boys to cover the 33 Munster games next season between them!!!

*Form, of course, notwithstanding.

Debaters apparently Munster are looking to sign a utility back who covers the back three. This has me wondering whether they are going to persist with Earls in the centre, maybe Lauala at 12 and Downey as cover.

I think that Bohane, Dineen, Laulala and Downey are perfect for centre. Similarly I think that Murphy, Conway, O'Dea, Earls, Zebo, Jones, O'Mahony and Hurley are ample back three.

Ideally we'd have another guy who could play both 9 and 10 but I think overall we'll just soldier on.

I think Munster aren't allowed to sign an NIQ 9 or 10 due to Jimmy Gopperth and Ruan Pienaar.

Then again, the IRFU are pretty inconsistent about enforcing their own rules.

Notch isnt it more a case of they jdge each case on its merits, with Pienaar at 9 Ulster couldn't sign a NIQ 10 but with only NIQ 9s and 10s at Leinster they could sign Gopparth.

Munster are going to be pretty bare there next season in terms of quality and experience

No I don't think so- well they do judge each case on it's merits and like many things in Ireland the way it's enforced is as clear as mud but they are trying to make it so there's a maximum of one NIQ player per position in Ireland.

We're tight but not that bad.

We have got two senior flyhalves (Keatley and Hanrahan) with Johne Holland on a development contract and 18 year old Gearoid Lyons in the academy.

Its wafer thin but its doable.

At scrumhalf we have options but really most aren't great. Again we'll survive if we have to.

The real worry must be loosehead prop. The 'system' worked a little too well.

I assume the ideal situation for the IRFU with a foreigner is that a youngster learns from him, ousts him from the team and there is now an IQ player where there was a NIQ player.

The foreigner then leaves and the team can sign a guy in a different position.

However we had that with Wian du Preez. Then Dave Kilcoyne came along and won the starting jersey off him. He is now featuring in international squads. Last year we had du Preez, Kilcoyne and Horan.

This year Kilcoyne will feature but will miss some games with international windows and we have lost Horan to retirement. Du Preez has left the club. This is the hard part. We need young Dave Kilcoyne to pass his wisdom onto the next group.

I was shocked that the young LH Des Merry (played in the JWC with Furlong last year) has not received an academy offer with any of the provinces. Although I think Ulster were looking to get him at one stage.

Furlong was not destroying the scrums on his own in the JWC and I was really impressed with Des. Surely would have been perfect option for the munster academy?

Munster Academy have made a conscious choice with regards to props to limit their intake, let them get some time in the AIL and then bring in those players who look good.

Its grand in theory but I'm not sure the AIL is of the required quality for that.

I would like Munster to make a formal relationship with a Championship club like Bedford, Rotherdam, Bristol etc where our young props can spend 12 money learning the hard slog.

We used loans to good effect last year with John Ryan and Alan Cotter spending time at Bath and London Irish. Hopefully the experience will stand to them this year.

Would it not be better to get them into the academy so they can get high level coaching and get experience playing in the B&I cup?

That system makes no sense and is clearly not working, for the props anyway.

Well they only started doing it about a year ago so we dont know if it is paying dividends.

They made a botched job of that whole Tim Ryan, Dave Ryan, Darragh Hurley (through injury) generation and want to change how they focus on props.

They want our development and fringe props in the B&I Cup.

As it stands we have 6 props. Those are the guys that will play B&I Cup.

Fair enough. Isn't there another Ryan brother coming through the Munster ranks?

So what are peoples score predictions for the USA match?

24 -16 to USA if things don't exactly get off to a good beginning of the post-Kidney era. I do really think Ireland needs to be serious about the risks of losing to be able to play hard enough to win well. USA at home and in bullish mood after losing to Canada and with players returning from Europe to bolster them, against an Ireland side missing 10 central Internationals in southern American heat. It could easily go wrong for Ireland.

But if Kiss, and the behind the scenes consultant Schmidt, really do intend to make a point early about a new way, then the scoring could be fast and high...in either half. USA 10 - Ireland 37

I'll go for my second prediction to be patriotic in the face of that leprechaun advert!

I think the team will be;

1) David Kilcoyne
2) Richardt Strauss
3) Mike Ross
4) Devin Toner
5) Mike McCarthy
6) Iain Henderson
7) Chris Henry
8) Peter O'Mahony (c)
9) Isaac Boss
10) Paddy Jackson OR Ian Madigan
11) Simon Zebo
12) Stuart Olding
13) Darren Cave
14) Andrew Trimble
15) Robbie Henshaw

The only position I really, really don't know about is 10. It's such a close call between two very evenly matched players. Suppose it could be McFadden at 14 too. Other than that I'm fairly confident.

Notch nearly gets 15 out of 15 for his prediction.

Both the Irish Times and Independent are predicting this team

Kilcoyne-Strauss-Ross
Toner-McCarthy
Henderson-POM (c)-Henry
Boss-Madigan
Olding-Cave
Zebo-Henshaw-McFadden

They don't mention the bench as much so I am giving this a shout
Sherry-Court-Hagan-McLaughin-TOD-Marmion-Jackson-Trimble

Overall I am pretty impressed with the team, just a few things.

1) We need to get a new TH on for as long as possible, playing Ross benefits nobody and in the long term we need guys who can do a job as backup.

2) Scrumhalf is another area where I believe we need to develop some more quality, we have a lot of 9's but very few good ones. I think Marmion could be a little bit special and I hope he gets the gametime to put him in the frame for bigger things down the road.

3) Delighted POM got put at 8 as I believe that is where he naturally plays, he is not good enough in the tight to be a proper 6 and he naturally drifts in to the wide areas where his athleticism is very impressive.

4) I hope Henderson gets some time at lock. I agree with the people saying currently he is better at 6 but I think he is a very good lock and has played better there than Tuohy has recently.

Pete,

There are lots of good 6's who play well in wide channels. Tom Croft and Imanol Harinordoquy would do two of these.

If you have a number 8 who can play in the close quarters that shouldn't matter.

True Stag, I guess it would not be my preference really, maybe that's a better way of putting it. Also definitely would consider Harinodoquoy an 8. Very excited to see POM at 8 and in a captains role too. Really looking forward to it.