Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

You'd be surprised. Do you really think Mike Ross and Declan Fitzpatrick are physically more suited to top level than Tony Buckley or able to throw as much tin around in the gym?

Nah, it's down to technique. I wouldn't say theres much wrong with any of these guys physically.

I don't think there is any likelihood of Bent, Archer or Hagan etc making the improvemnt Healy did.

If they played well then great Ross gets splinters in his backside but Ireland at the moment cannot afford risking a defeat against Canada.

Loughney to me belongs alongside Buckley - never going to be good enough

Notch wrote:You'd be surprised. Do you really think Mike Ross and Declan Fitzpatrick are physically more suited to top level than Tony Buckley or able to throw as much tin around in the gym?

Nah, it's down to technique. I wouldn't say theres much wrong with any of these guys physically.

I think John Afoa lifts the heaviest weights I've ever seen and coupled with the build of a mini rhino this contributes quite a bit to his scrummaging ability... along with technique of course....

Seriously though I think people confuse gym strength with sport specific strength, a big part of which is tehcnique. Brute force and technique go hand in hand.

In Tony Buckleys case the mechanics wasn't there to scrummage, maybe not the work ethic either but yeah physically he was more imposing than Ross or Fitzpatrick no doubt.

We can afford whatever we like on this tour. The point is development not results. I'd rather our second choice tighthead struggled for 80 mins against Canada and we lost/shaded a win than we had to bring on Ross to bail us out and then Ross gets injured the night before we play whoever in the autumn and the guy we showed no confidence in in the summer is suddenly in the starting jersey. Better now than then in other words.

If we do lose to Canada, it'll be down to more than one poor tighthead. Depending on the number and frequency of scrums- so long as we win a reasonable percentage of ball on our own put in and don't concede too many penalties it'll be fine.

Besides, given our lack of depth at tighthead it makes sense to try and prolong Ross career as much as possible. So resting him over summer is frankly a good idea.

rodders wrote:I think John Afoa lifts the heaviest weights I've ever seen and coupled with the build of a mini rhino this contributes quite a bit to his scrummaging ability... along with technique of course....

Yeah, John Afoa doesn't come into it. Thats a real international-class tighthead. Our best hope is developing some kind of ersatz adequate tighthead who can take part in scrums without us losing the ball on our own put in or getting penalised too frequently and anything else is a bonus!

Think Hagan could improve a lot in the Premiership.

Ross is already a 65 minute man so there isn't much chance of him lasting to the RWC.

I'd be trying other options asap and enforcing a strict no NIE policy at provincial level.

Keep Ross on the bench.

That what I am saying - insurance not a starter

I completely disagree about the results not being important - lose to Canada and we will be in a tail spin.

The new Coach, I believe it will be a new coach, will be under immediate pressure and will stop experimenting.

That is why a Ross (bench), Ryan, Heaslip, Kearney spine of experience is necessary.
Such a spine will assist the rest of the younger players as well in getting used to the International environment

Ross or no Ross, this is Canada and the US were playing, we should be good enough to beat them even with a poor scrum.*

I'd leave him at home. Even if it does end up costing us at least well have 2 props with another game at international level (assuming they get one each).

*thats presuming Kidney is gone

Sextons had an injury set back and looks like he wont play before the squads announced could he miss out on the Lions?

Terrible news for him. Should be Biggar, Farrell and......? Laidlaw covering 9 and 10? The likelihood of Madigan as a bolter has increased considering hell be starting for the rest of the season.

I would not bring Ross, we need to blood these guys and see if they sink or swim.

If they start sinking I would prefer to see how they react (during the game) if they fall to pieces or adapt rather than springing Ross from the bench.

Stag- Yeah that makes a lot of sense re: Bowe/Zebo.

Lads do we really think Heaslip and Kearney aren't going to be with the Lions? They have a good chance IMO of going and there will be injuries to possible Lions contenders.

My backrow for the summer would be Henderson 6, Henry 7 and captain, POM at 8.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I would not bring Ross, we need to blood these guys and see if they sink or swim.

If they start sinking I would prefer to see how they react (during the game) if they fall to pieces or adapt rather than springing Ross from the bench.

Stag- Yeah that makes a lot of sense re: Bowe/Zebo.

Lads do we really think Heaslip and Kearney aren't going to be with the Lions? They have a good chance IMO of going and there will be injuries to possible Lions contenders.

My backrow for the summer would be Henderson 6, Henry 7 and captain, POM at 8.

Need to get more options at 8 to give Heaslip a kick up the backside and to give us depth there

marty2086 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I would not bring Ross, we need to blood these guys and see if they sink or swim.

If they start sinking I would prefer to see how they react (during the game) if they fall to pieces or adapt rather than springing Ross from the bench.

Stag- Yeah that makes a lot of sense re: Bowe/Zebo.

Lads do we really think Heaslip and Kearney aren't going to be with the Lions? They have a good chance IMO of going and there will be injuries to possible Lions contenders.

My backrow for the summer would be Henderson 6, Henry 7 and captain, POM at 8.

Need to get more options at 8 to give Heaslip a kick up the backside and to give us depth there

I agree but I think POM is playing the role of an 8. Whiffofcordite had an article on it. I'd like to see him in that role with a classic-ish 7 (henry) and a work-a-holic (Henderson)

Anyone else think Henderson has all the attributes to play 8? Strong ball carrier, excellent hands, lineout ability, good footballing brain....

He might just be our best prospect at lock, blindside and 8 ....

rodders wrote:Anyone else think Henderson has all the attributes to play 8? Strong ball carrier, excellent hands, lineout ability, good footballing brain....

He might just be our best prospect at lock, blindside and 8 ....

rodders I was just about to say maybe hes the best option to play blindside, minus Ferris, alongside Heaslip and SOB. Others have said that Heaslip isnt the same player without Fez and we've become too reliant on SOB for carrying ball so he may be the answer to get the back row firing again

Is he athletic enough for 8?!?! I wouldn't think of putting him there at all. He is quick for a lock and reasonably so for a 6 but as an 8 I would say he would be very slow (Nick Easter mould)it is important for an 8 to be able to get outside the 6 or 7 off scrums so pace and acceleration are important.

Isn't he 19stone or so?

Marty I think our backrow has been very weak generally. Heaslip is definitely on the slide and O'Mahoney hasn't become the player we hoped. O'Brien has been overloaded with the carrying duties and easy to mark and we've been exposed on the deck as a result.

Definitely I'd start Henderson and Henry. No 8 is a real problem though. SOB might be the best option.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Is he athletic enough for 8?!?! I wouldn't think of putting him there at all. He is quick for a lock and reasonably so for a 6 but as an 8 I would say he would be very slow (Nick Easter mould)it is important for an 8 to be able to get outside the 6 or 7 off scrums so pace and acceleration are important.

Isn't he 19stone or so?

No, 17 and half I think, and he's definitely more athletic than any of our backrowers. In fact he's the best natural athlete I've seen in 20 odd years or so of watching Irish rugby.

Hendersons official bio states on Ulsters site says hes 18st 3 but hes quick and can just bat big guys off him so can draw 2 or 3 guys into a tackle

rodders the backrow is the perfect example of whats been wrong with the Irish setup Henrys been one of the most consistant 7s in the HC yet can barely get a game, SOB isnt a typical 7, Heaslips been off the boil since 09 but they keep hoping he'll come good and find his past form and POM is good but not great

My team for the Tour

Kilcoyne-Strauss-Bent
Tuohy-McCarthy (Ryan with Lions?)
Hendy-POM-Henry (c)
Marmion-Madigan
Marshall-Cave
Zebo-Henshaw-Gilroy (kearney with Lions.)

Cronin-Court-Bent-Toner-TOD-Marshall-Jackson-Trimble

Sherry
Fitzpatrick
Stevenson
Murphy
Sheridan
McSharry
Conway

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Is he athletic enough for 8?!?! I wouldn't think of putting him there at all. He is quick for a lock and reasonably so for a 6 but as an 8 I would say he would be very slow (Nick Easter mould)it is important for an 8 to be able to get outside the 6 or 7 off scrums so pace and acceleration are important.

Isn't he 19stone or so?

No, 17 and half I think, and he's definitely more athletic than any of our backrowers. In fact he's the best natural athlete I've seen in 20 odd years or so of watching Irish rugby.

This I disagree with big time. POM is the quickest by some distance. SOB is the most explosive by some distance. Heaslip is the most agile by some distance.

All in my opinion obviously

Maldivian and Zebo will be with the Lions.

Glas a du wrote:Maldivian and Zebo will be with the Lions.

If Sexton is out then Madigan is a possibility, Zebo will need one or two lads to dip

Remember, when Gatland had the choice of Biggar or Priestland, he chose Priestland. Halfpenny will be there to kick the goals. Madigan is the big bolter on this tour I reckon.

Henderson is definitely not too slow for 8 but for next year at least he will get no game time there and very little in the second row.

With Ferris being absent he will be first choice 6 for the coming season

Golden wrote:Terrible news for him. Should be Biggar, Farrell and......? Laidlaw covering 9 and 10? The likelihood of Madigan as a bolter has increased considering hell be starting for the rest of the season.

Jonny Wilkinson is looking more likely with every passing day.

George Carlin wrote:

Golden wrote:Terrible news for him. Should be Biggar, Farrell and......? Laidlaw covering 9 and 10? The likelihood of Madigan as a bolter has increased considering hell be starting for the rest of the season.

Jonny Wilkinson is looking more likely with every passing day.

Or not Gatlands said anyone involved in the Top14 finals wont go as he wants everyone on the plane to Hong Kong or they dont get picked

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Maldivian and Zebo will be with the Lions.

If Sexton is out then Madigan is a possibility, Zebo will need one or two lads to dip

He was named checked by gatland last week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/9941150/Players-chosen-for-British-and-Irish-Lions-tour-to-Australia-will-not-hear-of-selection-in-advance-says-Warren-Gatland.html

..... Gatland will also be closely monitoring those players who missed all or most of the championship because of injury before making his final selection.

“Definitely, without even thinking about it, three names come to mind,” Gatland added. “[Ireland wing Simon] Zebo, is currently out for 10 weeks so it will be whether he gets himself back in time to put himself into contention. He is inexperienced about at the top level but you can’t deny that there is something about him in terms of scoring tries and something happens when he is on the field.

edit: and Zebo looked to be back in full training today with Munster.
http://www.inpho.ie/media/Ga2GU_3Spn8p19Hw_sc3uQ..a?ts=4XsvLuuNCV1abbYr3WLxkg..a

marty2086 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Golden wrote:Terrible news for him. Should be Biggar, Farrell and......? Laidlaw covering 9 and 10? The likelihood of Madigan as a bolter has increased considering hell be starting for the rest of the season.

Jonny Wilkinson is looking more likely with every passing day.

Or not Gatlands said anyone involved in the Top14 finals wont go as he wants everyone on the plane to Hong Kong or they dont get picked

There is always James Hook.

haha
https://www.facebook.com/PetitionToRenameTheRdsMadiganSquareGarden?group_id=0

Doubt both lads make it, should they be there absolutely. Ideally suited to playing in Oz, but Gatland will try to play the way he has played Oz in the past (and probably lose)

Where's Timmy Ryan now?

Timmy Ryan is with the Dragons but can't get anywhere near the team.

so...............

30 man squad let's say.

Kilcoyne-Court-Bent-Archer-Hagan
Strauss-Cronin-Sherry
Ryan-McCarthy-Toner
Henderson-POM-Henry-TOD-Wilson
(17)

Marmion-Boss-Marshall
Madigan-Jackson
Marshall*-Darcy-Cave
Zebo-Gilroy-Trimble-Henshaw-Kearney Jr
(14)

Well Rory Best is now a shoe-in for Ireland Tour Captain. It's very important that he travels to North America as he'll be on the standby list.

Still shocked he wasn't picked for the Lions.

I would like to see;

Kilcoyne, Court, Ross, Hagan, Archer
Best, Strauss, Cronin
Ryan, McCarthy, Toner, Henderson
Diack, O'Mahony, Henry, O'Donnell, Coughlan
Boss, Marshall, Marmion
Madigan, Jackson
Olding, Cave, McFadden
Zebo, Gilroy, Trimble, Henshaw, Fitzgerald

Sorry totally forgot about Best!!!! Awful stuff Pete! I don't think he deserved to go to Aus but his exclusion really means hooker is a weak spot for the Lions.

Fitz and Olding are both great calls. is Marshall out you reckon Notch?

I'd like to see a grim determination to make a mark.
No quarter given.
Yes USA and Canada are not top ten opponents but that shouldn't make Ireland be less inclined to play as hard as their lungs allow them for each game.
Turning up to have a run-around at International level should now be a thing of the past. If you want your place, you bust a gut to keep pressure for a full 80 and try to score as highly as you can. No 'seeing how things go' or 'building systems' or "trying out a few things". I've had a belly full of that lingo. Go to play full impact full pace International level rugby and play to win well - if winning is possible at all; which of course is not a guarantee! .

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Fitz and Olding are both great calls. is Marshall out you reckon Notch?

I don't know if he is or not, but what I do know is he should be absolutely nowhere near a rugby pitch until we understand why he keeps getting concussed and can guarantee it isn't going to happen again. In other words, until he is passed fit keep him away from a rugby pitch!

Yeah good squad Notch. No Keith Earls?

I'd like to see Touhy in there, I think he offers more than McCarthy or Toner.

Is Lutton or Fitzpatrick worth a punt instead of Ross?

rodders wrote:Yeah good squad Notch. No Keith Earls?

I'd like to see Touhy in there, I think he offers more than McCarthy or Toner.

Is Lutton or Fitzpatrick worth a punt instead of Ross?

Think it's better to develop hagan, bent and archer then Fitzpatrick at this stage.

While Luton has looked good in a few games I think the others have shown more.

I reckon Best and Zebo could be on the standby list. anyone else?

rodders wrote:Yeah good squad Notch. No Keith Earls?

I'd like to see Touhy in there, I think he offers more than McCarthy or Toner.

Is Lutton or Fitzpatrick worth a punt instead of Ross?

Ah Poopie I forgot about Earls. Yeah, he'll have to go somewhere. I guess six back three players then.

Golden wrote:

rodders wrote:Yeah good squad Notch. No Keith Earls?

I'd like to see Touhy in there, I think he offers more than McCarthy or Toner.

Is Lutton or Fitzpatrick worth a punt instead of Ross?

Think it's better to develop hagan, bent and archer then Fitzpatrick at this stage.

While Luton has looked good in a few games I think the others have shown more.

I reckon Best and Zebo could be on the standby list. anyone else?

Best is definitely on stand-by I'd say and Zebo more than likely is. Can't imagine any of the other Irish are although Ryan could well be too.

Notch wrote:Well Rory Best is now a shoe-in for Ireland Tour Captain. It's very important that he travels to North America as he'll be on the standby list.

Still shocked he wasn't picked for the Lions.

I would like to see;

Kilcoyne, Court, Ross, Hagan, Archer
Best, Strauss, Cronin
Ryan, McCarthy, Toner, Henderson
Diack, O'Mahony, Henry, O'Donnell, Coughlan
Boss, Marshall, Marmion
Madigan, Jackson
Olding, Cave, McFadden
Zebo, Gilroy, Trimble, Henshaw, Fitzgerald

I like this squad myself (with the inclusion of Earls as a back 3). I would take out Coughlan and put in Ruddock however.

Ruddock covers more positions than Coughlan, has been in pretty damn good form for the last month and a bit and crucially he has a potential future in a green jersey where as Coughlan doesn't I don't think.

Tuohy would be a big 'loser' if this was the squad but the other locks are doing well realistically.

Just a few queries on injuries: does anyone know anything "official" or semi-official on the following?
Fitzgerald
Donnacha Ryan (heard he was playing through an injury)
Reddan
Marshall
McSharry

Also I think POM should be looked at as an 8 during this tour

So, eh... this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7tZ61g4c1WU

Cheers for that America.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Best is definitely on stand-by I'd say and Zebo more than likely is. Can't imagine any of the other Irish are although Ryan could well be too.

Sounds like Best isn't even on stand by. He said last night that he hasn't heard anything from Gatland and if other reports are correct then Ross Ford is on the back up list.

Notch wrote:So, eh... this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7tZ61g4c1WU

Cheers for that America.

Christ

Shocking stuff.

Lads, is this on tv?

Notch wrote:So, eh... this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7tZ61g4c1WU

Cheers for that America.

I had to watch that through my fingers

I laughed. Yeah at how bad it was done...and at the Irish guys in Irish/American gift shop jerseys. Are we that behind the times? But still...a little silly fun. Now, let them wait for the real Irish team to come over the hill.