Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

by red_stag Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

by debaters1 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:32 pm

Yep, that team excites me, especially with Madigan at 10. The only concern I'd have is that given the 10-12-13 axis of IM, Olding and Cave isn't exactly over weight/ collectively 18 feet tall, that if the Yanks (or Canadian's for that matter if Kiss/Schmidt play the same guys twice) start running big men in midfield.

All 3 of them can tackle, unlike the old guard of ROG, D'Arcy & BOD (clearly I mean ROG being a weak but not unwilling tackler. BOD & D'Arcy are excellent in that regard) and we could play attacking rugby but that they might not get the chance to expose as many gaps or be generally as effective in reality as we believe they could be on paper. Cannot wait for the game.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:15 pm

I agree in that regard Debaters, we do lack muscle in the backline, McFadden being the only very strong guy, even in the pack in terms of carriers we have Henderson, Kilcoyne and POM, that's it basically.

Hope guys like Strauss, McCarthy and Cave do some direct running too.

Not worried defensively about our midfield I must say.

by Standulstermen Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:23 pm

Only slight grumble would be I would rather see Trimble in there than McFadden but it's not a big issue. Had hoped we would be looking at Hendo for lock but if 6 is where he is going to be then fair enough

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:28 pm

Was anyone else surprised Downey got called to cover 12 when Ferg is in the squad????

by Standulstermen Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:38 pm

Schmidt must see ferg as a wing and nothing more. If so, I'm glad he has a position at last.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:00 pm

yeah not a bad call, wonder what O'Connor will think

by red_stag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:03 pm

I think he is a much much better winger than a centre. I've never understood why so many see him as a 12.

Apart from the Churchill Cup he has never delivered as a 12 really. By contrast he routinely plays very well as a number 14.

by debaters1 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:05 pm

I'm not worried about defence per se, Pete, more so what the toll of said heavy lefting does to small guys, especially when this is not the 1st and in some cases, even the second choice pack. I really hope POM goes well in general and as captain & 8. Unlikely, but things could be different in the backrow come November.

I'd put a euro or 2 on: (I'd love to see this backrow):

6: POM
7: TOD
8: SOB

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:07 pm

anyone know if the Emerging Irish game is televised at all? 10pm tomorrow Irish time.

Morris-Kearney-O'Halloran
Allen-Griffin
Heaney-Keatley
Ruddock (c)-Diack-Ryan
Stevenson-Foley
McGrath-Herring-Bent

Replacements:
Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster),
Richard Lutton (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster),
Ian Nagle (Cork Constitution/Munster),
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster),
John Cooney (Lansdowne/Leinster),
Noel Reid (Clontarf/Leinster),
Brendan Macken (Blackrock/Leinster).

by debaters1 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:08 pm

red_stag wrote:I think he is a much much better winger than a centre. I've never understood why so many see him as a 12.

Apart from the Churchill Cup he has never delivered as a 12 really. By contrast he routinely plays very well as a number 14.

THANK YOU STAGGY!!!!

Kidney was playing McFadden 'out of position' or 'not utilising his strengths'. Should Scmidt and Kiss use him at 14 or 11, a few people will owe Kidney some small hat tip in this regard. Won't make up for other mistakes of course, but in some peoples eyes even when doing exactly what they wanted, he was doing it wrong.

Ah well. Roll on Saturday evening!

by red_stag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:12 pm

Not sure Kidney gets a tip of the hat per say. He was playing a lot of rugby there for Leinster anyway during injury periods to Fitzgerald and Kearney.

He had lots of good games at 14 for Ireland and everyone was taking this as a reason why he should be at 12.

I used to never rate him but I think he's actually a good winger.

I wouldn't expect drastic change under Schmidt this Autumn:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Mahony, Heaslip (c), O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Darcy, O'Driscoll
Zebo, Kearney, Bowe

Thats basically the starting team that Kidney left him. Do you see mega changes?

by ME-109 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:20 pm

red_stag wrote:Not sure Kidney gets a tip of the hat per say. He was playing a lot of rugby there for Leinster anyway during injury periods to Fitzgerald and Kearney.

He had lots of good games at 14 for Ireland and everyone was taking this as a reason why he should be at 12.

I used to never rate him but I think he's actually a good winger.

I wouldn't expect drastic change under Schmidt this Autumn:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Mahony, Heaslip (c), O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Darcy, O'Driscoll
Zebo, Kearney, Bowe

Thats basically the starting team that Kidney left him. Do you see mega changes?

Not enough LULSTERMEN clearly...

by debaters1 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:22 pm

Nope. Certainly i don't see how there could be mega change in the tight 5 anyway, as the guys in position are more or less dead certs. You could argue that Best might lose out to Strauss as Schmidt knows the latter so well, but I personally wouldn't make that chancge unless Best's form really drops or Strauss is simply playing lights out rugby. Both are possible but if it 50:50 then I'd go with Best myself. Experience etc.

The back row is, as ever, the are most likely to change but it might not pan out like that with form and injuries etc forcing things or forcing the status quo. As I said though, would love to see the combo I posted above. Power and balance.

The wingers could well change, depending on form and injury, but Bowe and Zebo are very likely to be the first choice if available. I'd change 12 to almost any one else. D'Arcy had his best year in 3 maybe 4 seasons it must be said, but he isn't the future and I cannot see him being the 12 for the RWC. The same can be said of BOD and I'm on record there anyway, but right now anyway, he is at an acceptable standard.

by Artful_Dodger Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:25 pm

red_stag wrote:Not sure Kidney gets a tip of the hat per say. He was playing a lot of rugby there for Leinster anyway during injury periods to Fitzgerald and Kearney.

He had lots of good games at 14 for Ireland and everyone was taking this as a reason why he should be at 12.

I used to never rate him but I think he's actually a good winger.

I wouldn't expect drastic change under Schmidt this Autumn:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Mahony, Heaslip (c), O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Darcy, O'Driscoll
Zebo, Kearney, Bowe

Thats basically the starting team that Kidney left him. Do you see mega changes?

I'd be disappointed if we continue to see D'Arcy persisted with. He's done nothing for several seasons and with players like L.Marshall and Olding coming through and already offering much more I don't see the point.

by red_stag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:27 pm

Artful actually Darcy was a typo. So used to typing Sexton, Darcy, O'Driscoll. Must update my copy and paste. Marshall is the holder of the 12 shirt currently.

The big question will be whether Schmidt cops any flack if he picks Earls at 13.

by debaters1 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:40 pm

red_stag wrote:Artful actually Darcy was a typo. So used to typing Sexton, Darcy, O'Driscoll. Must update my copy and paste. Marshall is the holder of the 12 shirt currently.

The big question will be whether Schmidt cops any flack if he picks Earls at 13.

Yep, I just hope that Marshall puts the three concussions behind him and continues his upward curve of performances for ulster next season, then I'd be very happy with 12. And yes, if, IF!, Earls is selected at 13 ever by Schmidt, it will be very interesting to see what these boards are like.

We'll find out a lot come November, no doubt.

by red_stag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:45 pm

Sadly with Munster apparently signing Gerhard van der Heever (and failed in signing Digby Ioane and Rene Ranger) then its safe to say that Earls is seen as a centre.

by Ledge the ledgebag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 4:46 pm

Apparently Madigan is going to focus on becoming an inside centre next season, the close relationship between Sexton and Schmidt is too strong for Madigan to break through at out half, so Stag's team is pretty close but we may have seen the last of D'arcy

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 06 Jun 2013, 5:07 pm

red_stag wrote:Sadly with Munster apparently signing Gerhard van der Heever (and failed in signing Digby Ioane and Rene Ranger) then its safe to say that Earls is seen as a centre.

Honestly, Earls could make a cracking 13 due to his line breaking ability and his much improved distribution. However, his awareness is pretty shocking. I don't know how much that can be developed either. If it can be, and if he works really hard at improving this, then I think he would make a fantastic 13. However like I said, awareness seems to be something that comes naturally to some, and others struggle with it.

Marshall at 12 and Earls at 13 could be very good. If Earls learns to play like a centre should.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 06 Jun 2013, 5:08 pm

Ledge the ledgebag wrote:Apparently Madigan is going to focus on becoming an inside centre next season, the close relationship between Sexton and Schmidt is too strong for Madigan to break through at out half, so Stag's team is pretty close but we may have seen the last of D'arcy

He will be starting at 10 for Leinster though. I don't see the point in this if he is better at 10 and we have Marshall/Olding/McSharry/Farrell as future 12 options.

by debaters1 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 5:15 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Ledge the ledgebag wrote:Apparently Madigan is going to focus on becoming an inside centre next season, the close relationship between Sexton and Schmidt is too strong for Madigan to break through at out half, so Stag's team is pretty close but we may have seen the last of D'arcy

He will be starting at 10 for Leinster though. I don't see the point in this if he is better at 10 and we have Marshall/Olding/McSharry/Farrell as future 12 options.

Agreed, Sexton stubs a toe in the warm up and can't play and Paddy Jackson has the scuts, enter Ian Madigan to play 10 against the All Blacks having last played outhalf in May?? Eh no, madness. He'll play 10 and, as per IRFU rules, if he continues to play as well as he has been and makes it a near 50:50 decision, he'll get the nod. And he'll most likely be good for it too.

Regarding Earls, he could be an excellent 13, but he needs someone to spend some remedial time on passing/awareness etc. This comes natuarally to a lot of players, but is a skill that can be learned and learn it he must. And in fairness to Earls himself, he isn't the lazy type of talented player so I think he has the capacity to enhance his game in this area, he just needs to be coached in it.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 06 Jun 2013, 5:18 pm

This has to be his last chance though. He is not young anymore and if he isn't going to be the replacement to BOD we are better looking elsewhere. If there isn't improvement this season, then we may hope for a better option soon.

by Standulstermen Thu 06 Jun 2013, 5:33 pm

It's hard to say what changes there will be. I do thick Schmidt will have one eye on 2015 with regard to selection. That's not to say the Bowes, POCs, Bests etc will be jettisoned en masse but I think he will at least look to bed in a new 12 alongside BOD for the year and he will again be thinking about who will replace the great man.

I expect (not a given) to see Henderson in the team be it at 6 or in the row. If kiss and co are using him at 6 in this tour that's an indication as to where he will be going forward. Not sure I agree with it but it will be interesting anyway. I don't disagree with the tight 5 above but there is a lack of carrying about it imo

by wolfball Thu 06 Jun 2013, 5:48 pm

Thank christ, people talking about actual rugby, rather then the bile on all the lions threads... I will be at a concert (live in the states) so will miss it, but if anyone finds a youtube link with the whole match recorded, would love a PM...

by Ledge the ledgebag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 6:06 pm

debaters1 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Ledge the ledgebag wrote:Apparently Madigan is going to focus on becoming an inside centre next season, the close relationship between Sexton and Schmidt is too strong for Madigan to break through at out half, so Stag's team is pretty close but we may have seen the last of D'arcy

He will be starting at 10 for Leinster though. I don't see the point in this if he is better at 10 and we have Marshall/Olding/McSharry/Farrell as future 12 options.

Agreed, Sexton stubs a toe in the warm up and can't play and Paddy Jackson has the scuts, enter Ian Madigan to play 10 against the All Blacks having last played outhalf in May?? Eh no, madness. He'll play 10 and, as per IRFU rules, if he continues to play as well as he has been and makes it a near 50:50 decision, he'll get the nod. And he'll most likely be good for it too.

Regarding Earls, he could be an excellent 13, but he needs someone to spend some remedial time on passing/awareness etc. This comes natuarally to a lot of players, but is a skill that can be learned and learn it he must. And in fairness to Earls himself, he isn't the lazy type of talented player so I think he has the capacity to enhance his game in this area, he just needs to be coached in it.

This isn't just me saying what I believe will happen, Ian believes he doesn't have much of a chance at claiming the number ten shirt for Ireland because of how close Johnny and Joe are, this isn't my opinion btw

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 06 Jun 2013, 6:09 pm

Hmm.. has Ian really said that though? That he doesn't believe he has much of a chance claiming the 10 shirt? It seems a bit strange he would say that. Starting 10 for Leinster next season, in fantastic form, getting huge praise from many.

I would say he has a HUGE chance to battle Johnny for the shirt now!

by Golden Thu 06 Jun 2013, 6:27 pm

But Leinster have no one else to play 10? Goppereth wont be starting the big games

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 6:35 pm

Strange news on the Madigan front, must take you for your word if you have it from the horses mouth. What an impact sub at the very least.

Fingers crossed on Marshall for next year as I think he could be central to Irish plans for 2015. I imagine for 13/14 he will line up alongside BOD and in 14/15 I think he will play with one of Bowe/Payne in the 13 shirt.

I hope Henderson gets some game time at lock as we have such amazing talent at backrow I would hate to see him wasted. Can't see Ferris featuring for Ireland much anymore, but guys like Heaslip and SOB are not cemented almost so TOD/POM/Henry/others will be trying to take that last flanker spot (6 or 7) and the bench spot.

I think we should all say a prayer for Jamie Hagan on this tour also as his development is fairly crucial for Ireland. He has had some very, very good games in the last 2 or 3 months and could well end up as a starter at London Irish all going well. He could be a blessing for Ireland in a position we have never been strong in and is still young as a prop so could develop in to something special given time and a few opportunities

by Standulstermen Thu 06 Jun 2013, 6:55 pm

Madigan would be a complete idiot to move from 10 and I don't think his new coach will be massively keen on it. He will be starting ten next season at Leinster and good luck to him.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 7:13 pm

Standulstermen wrote: Madigan would be a complete idiot to move from 10 and I don't think his new coach will be massively keen on it. He will be starting ten next season at Leinster and good luck to him.

+1

by SecretFly Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:11 pm

I actually think Madigan is a pretty wise young man.

Sexton isn't old...he should have a good few more years as mainstay. Then you have Paddy Jackson and others who might be understudies during the brief periods of International games. Then you have to be very careful you don't miss a window of opportunity, as if you remain on the bench too long behind Sexton then by the time Sexton moves out, you're already the old dog being hounded by even younger hopes. You might be leapfrogged.

So, if you're ambitious to get into the Irish side quicker and believe you have a game that might give you a quicker route onto the team, then you have to be thinking seriously about taking the risk and (in consultation with your coaches - Provincial and International) moving position.

Who knows, he might have already had chats with Schmidt before the end of the season about his development as a player.

by Standulstermen Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:16 pm

Except there is a younger and (currently) better option at 12 in Marshall who is the incumbent. Possibly two depending on your opinion on Olding and a 6ft plus unit coming through in the centre as well.

Add to that madigans experience in pro rugby is vastly weighted to 10 and it happens to have been where his best performances are and it isn't that wise.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:18 pm

The main thing is that Madigan is much better at 10 than he is at 12. From what I have seen at least this is true.

by SecretFly Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:28 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Except there is a younger and (currently) better option at 12 in Marshall who is the incumbent. Possibly two depending on your opinion on Olding and a 6ft plus unit coming through in the centre as well.

Add to that madigans experience in pro rugby is vastly weighted to 10 and it happens to have been where his best performances are and it isn't that wise.

Em, that's an objective opinion about Marshall being better at 12. I mean, that might be the opinion of outsiders looking in. To an ambitious player - and he is - Madigan is subjectively out for himself, his career, his hopes of being in the Irish side.

It's not for him to accept any inevitables about who should be in what position and content himself to wait on the fringes for Sexton to move on. He's out for numero uno...and if he's for trying out a different position, and if his new coach is in agreement, then he won't mind going into open competition with Marshall (who is less certain in his position than Sexton is in his).

Whatever any of us think about what's best for Ireland, Madigan will be thinking I don't want waiting for something that might take too long. He has the right to his self-belief that he's better than a long-term International bencher or injury fill-in. And in my opinion, I agree with him.

by **Notch** Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:41 pm

Thats not going to work out for Ian Madigan, because no way the new coach at Leinster is going to think Gopperth is the man for 10 in the Heineken Cup games. He'll be at 10 in the big games and there is a wealth of talent at 12 who will be playing there week in and out.

Madigan is a fine player and a Sexton-Madigan partnership could be a fine thing, I just don't see Leinster seeing him as a 12 and his dream is over then before it starts- unless Schmidt intervenes with provincial selection. Not impossible.

I'd expect D'Arcy to be gone in the Autumn whatever happens. Agree Madigan would be a better option as would Olding and Marshall building for the next RWC. I think one of those two will be slowly brought in as outside centre as its BODs last season. Back three is pretty settled as is the back row and tight five so looking more for an evolution in how we play than sweeping changes.

by Ledge the ledgebag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:49 pm

Yea Fly has summed it up nicely. Ian is 24 now. He doesn't want to wait to break into the team, imo he should have gone to NZ last summer. I also agree with everyone else here that he is an excellent outhalf and should stick with that position but clearly he believes as do I that Sexton will retain his position. I'm not sure about him moving to centre but in fairness the guys ability to hit the line at pace is phenomenal. He must start on Saturday. I think he could become as important as Bowe, SOB or Healy, come 2015, if he is finally given some overdue caps.

by **Notch** Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:56 pm

He has it all to prove at 12 though doesn't he. He has to earn his stripes there all over again.

Everything he's impressed with has been associated with his game at 10. He realistically needs to get some gametime at 12 on this tour and in the Heineken Cup next year. I think he could be excellent there if given a chance. And we have a lot more depth at 10 with Jackson and Sexton than we do at 12, with D'Arcy all but finished, no realistic contender at Munster and Olding and Marshall battling for one shirt in Ulster.

But if he doesn't get games at 12, it's a moot point.

by Standulstermen Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:58 pm

I wouldn't be as certain of sextons position as many are. He is currently a lot better but madigan hasn't had a season as number one yet. I don't think he will move until he gives that a shot. It may well be that Jackson develops further next year and puts more pressure on madigan for the 10 shirt (or reserve 10).

It's also a massive gamble. Ambitious? Maybe. Foolish? Quite possibly. He should maybe talk to Keith earls

by Ledge the ledgebag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:02 pm

anyone read the interview with madigan before the pro 12 final in the irish times, he pretty much said he is going to talk to Joe about how he can transfer to centre

by SecretFly Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:03 pm

Notch wrote:He has it all to prove at 12 though doesn't he. He has to earn his stripes there all over again.

Everything he's impressed with has been associated with his game at 10. He realistically needs to get some gametime at 12 on this tour and in the Heineken Cup next year.

You'll admit though, Notch, that 10 won't get him much time on the International team in the next few years...unless of course he has an absolutely masterful season next time domestically and in Europe and puts Sexton's efforts in France to shame. Long shot, that one.

So, we come back to the fact that he's ambitious, he has known skills and he'll be hard pressed to get a look in during the lead in to the WC as 10. So...what would you do if you were a player who wasn't prepared to accept the probability of an International bench (at best!..he mightn't even get that 'treat')

by SecretFly Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:09 pm

Standulstermen wrote:He should maybe talk to Keith earls

As a few of us have alluded to, he's probably already talked to someone more influencial than Keith...someone who knows his abilities more intimately than most people. It might be something Schmidt agrees with in principle.

by Ledge the ledgebag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Notch wrote:He has it all to prove at 12 though doesn't he. He has to earn his stripes there all over again.

Everything he's impressed with has been associated with his game at 10. He realistically needs to get some gametime at 12 on this tour and in the Heineken Cup next year.

You'll admit though, Notch, that 10 won't get him much time on the International team in the next few years...unless of course he has an absolutely masterful season next time domestically and in Europe and puts Sexton's efforts in France to shame. Long shot, that one.

So, we come back to the fact that he's ambitious, he has known skills and he'll be hard pressed to get a look in during the lead in to the WC as 10. So...what would you do if you were a player who wasn't prepared to accept the probability of an International bench (at best!..he mightn't even get that 'treat')

Yea if he has a virtuoso season at ten, then it MIGHT just be possible that Sexton will be dropped. However Sexton is going to have to be playing terribly at Racing which is not an outrageous thought when you consider the 'french top 14 effect'

by Standulstermen Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:14 pm

Is there any evidence to suggest that schmidt or Matt o'connor want him moved to 12? If they don't it will be mighty difficult for him. Joe was clearly planning to have him as Leinsters 1st choice 10 next season.

It's an interesting one. I still think he would be massively foolish to do it. Sexton is away in France and like I say madigan hadn't been poor in an on-off capacity at 10 for Leinster. I would be much more curious (and I have to say I was looking forward) to seeing how he goes as número uno. The three top Irish 10's all getting gametime was exciting

by **Notch** Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:19 pm

Ledge the ledgebag wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Notch wrote:He has it all to prove at 12 though doesn't he. He has to earn his stripes there all over again.

Everything he's impressed with has been associated with his game at 10. He realistically needs to get some gametime at 12 on this tour and in the Heineken Cup next year.

You'll admit though, Notch, that 10 won't get him much time on the International team in the next few years...unless of course he has an absolutely masterful season next time domestically and in Europe and puts Sexton's efforts in France to shame. Long shot, that one.

So, we come back to the fact that he's ambitious, he has known skills and he'll be hard pressed to get a look in during the lead in to the WC as 10. So...what would you do if you were a player who wasn't prepared to accept the probability of an International bench (at best!..he mightn't even get that 'treat')

Yea if he has a virtuoso season at ten, then it MIGHT just be possible that Sexton will be dropped. However Sexton is going to have to be playing terribly at Racing which is not an outrageous thought when you consider the 'french top 14 effect'

Yes Fly, but he's not the one making the call about where he plays. And if he's not picked at 12, thats it. He'd be better off doing what Sexton did. Playing his way into the shirt of his rival. Paddy Jackson will do the same.

by Ledge the ledgebag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:22 pm

Notch wrote:
Ledge the ledgebag wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Notch wrote:He has it all to prove at 12 though doesn't he. He has to earn his stripes there all over again.

Everything he's impressed with has been associated with his game at 10. He realistically needs to get some gametime at 12 on this tour and in the Heineken Cup next year.

You'll admit though, Notch, that 10 won't get him much time on the International team in the next few years...unless of course he has an absolutely masterful season next time domestically and in Europe and puts Sexton's efforts in France to shame. Long shot, that one.

So, we come back to the fact that he's ambitious, he has known skills and he'll be hard pressed to get a look in during the lead in to the WC as 10. So...what would you do if you were a player who wasn't prepared to accept the probability of an International bench (at best!..he mightn't even get that 'treat')

Yea if he has a virtuoso season at ten, then it MIGHT just be possible that Sexton will be dropped. However Sexton is going to have to be playing terribly at Racing which is not an outrageous thought when you consider the 'french top 14 effect'

Keith Earls seemed to convince everyone that he had to play 13 ....... for a while at least

Yes Fly, but he's not the one making the call about where he plays.

by SecretFly Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:30 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Is there any evidence to suggest that schmidt or Matt o'connor want him moved to 12? If they don't it will be mighty difficult for him. Joe was clearly planning to have him as Leinsters 1st choice 10 next season.

Any evidence to suggest that, Stand? Wink

Schmidt obviously first of all wanted Sexton to stay... when he thought he might be staying himself. Now given that he would have wanted Sexton to stay in an ideal world, and realising the talent he had in Madigan, it's not exactly going too far to suggest Schmidt himself was getting around to the inevitablity that he'd have to look for a more frequent (two of them on the field at the same time) role for Madigan. Of course when Sexton said he was going, that inevitablity became less of a thought. Indeed the whole problem became someone elses as Schmidt found himself packing his bags at the same time as Sexton.

But you can be certain Schmidt had his individual final round of private chats with all his players before he left... to say his personal goodbyes and discuss things with them as regards where he's brought them to and where they might go. And if moving positions had been on Madigan's mind, I'm sure he brought it up in any chat. Now, yep, Schmidt ain't Leinster boss anymore but he still pulls some fancy strings as Irish International Coach inside an IRFU owned Provincial structure.

Oh it's all just idle speculation of course. We'll see how it all pans out next season.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:39 pm

I think Madigan should be aiming to beat Sexton for the 10 shirt, not simply move because of the competition. If he is a better player than Sexton, he will start. Otherwise Sexton will start. It is a great position for Ireland to be in, and for both players to bring out the best of their abilities. The same thing will happen between Marshall and Olding at 12.

I think Schmidt will give Madigan a couple of starts next season for Ireland, with Sexton on the bench. Give the guy a chance to shine at the highest level.

by Standulstermen Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Is there any evidence to suggest that schmidt or Matt o'connor want him moved to 12? If they don't it will be mighty difficult for him. Joe was clearly planning to have him as Leinsters 1st choice 10 next season.

Any evidence to suggest that, Stand? Schmidt obviously first of all wanted Sexton to stay... when he thought he might be staying himself. Now given that he would have wanted Sexton to stay in an ideal world, and realising the talent he had in Madigan, it's not exactly going too far to suggest Schmidt himself was getting around to the inevitablity that he'd have to look for a more frequent (two of them on the field at the same time) role for Madigan. Of course when Sexton said he was going, that inevitablity became less of a thought. Indeed the whole problem became someone elses as Schmidt found himself packing his bags at the same time as Sexton.

But you can be certain Schmidt had his individual final round of private chats with all his players before he left... to say his personal goodbyes and discuss things with them as regards where he's brought them to and where they might go. And if moving positions had been on Madigan's mind, I'm sure he brought it up in any chat. Now, yep, Schmidt ain't Leinster boss anymore but he still pulls some fancy strings as Irish International Coach inside an IRFU owned Provincial structure.

Oh it's all just idle speculation of course. We'll see how it all pans out next season.

Oh of course sexton was his first choice. But the signing of jimmy gopperth instead of a quad cooper is as strong an indicator that madigan was going to be first choice as any. Gopperth isn't an HEC 10. That being said we are all talking in circles. Saw somewhere that the team will be announced around 11pm over here. It is exciting times no matter what way you look at it I agree

by kingelderfield Thu 06 Jun 2013, 9:49 pm

Weather looks tough for saturday;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/4699066

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 10:07 pm

Very excited for this game, it's nice to have so many people arguing about the Lions and to come on to an Irish thread and see rational, respectful debate.

Keep it up gentlemen clap

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