Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

These coming game are bigger than the Lions for me.

Lions is fun, entertaining, melodramatic, and gloriously over-sensitive to every little nuance.

Ireland - especially now with new coach about to assume position and young players to look at - deathy serious.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:it's nice to have so many people arguing about the Lions and to come on to an Irish thread and see rational, respectful debate.

Keep it up gentlemen

They have none of them television things in Munster. So the Munster fans are all headin to Dublin to watch the game.

Spoiler:

SecretFly wrote:These coming game are bigger than the Lions for me.

Lions is fun, entertaining, melodramatic, and gloriously over-sensitive to every little nuance.

Ireland - especially now with new coach about to assume position and young players to look at - deathy serious.

Far more relevant than the corrupt HSBC sponsored jolly in Oz. Far more real.

I guess liking the Lions Tour is too mainstream

Yeah, I like obscure bands better...especially if they can't play their guitars proper but look well moody, like.

It's a proper buzz, innit.

I love the Lions Tours. Even if they are remnants of a distant Empire.

But, its all about the shekels. Being sponsored by HSBC is like being sponsored by Al Qaeda. Only worse.

Still hope its a great Tour. It all comes down to us lot enjoying top level rugby. That cant be bad.

Far more interested in how Ireland get on TBH.

A New Era begins.

15. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) *
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 17
13. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 3
12. Stuart Olding (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) *
11. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 5
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 2
9. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster) 15
1. David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 6
2. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 2
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 29
4. Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht) 10
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5
6. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 5
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 6
8. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) (capt) 14

Replacements:

16. Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster) *
17. Jamie Hagan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) *
18. Tom Court (Malone/Ulster) 30
19. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster) 5
20. Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) *
21. Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 1
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 3
23. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 3

Would have loved to have had Marmion involved in this game but you can't win em all eh. Odd that Jones was selected over Trimble also.

Overall very happy with the team.

Christ Pete, that lot would give the Lions a hell of a game.

Happy out.

Yes but saying you that you prefer the NA Tour is a bit OTT dont you think. Having said that I'm much more exited for the USA game than the Reds game. Anyway this is a silly argument tis neither here nor there.

My XV :

Kilcoyne
Sherry
Hagan
Henderson
McCarthy
Henry
TOD
POM
Marmion .... surely starting Boss is slightly pointless
Madigan
Trimble
Olding
Cave
Zebo
Henshaw

Court
Strauss
Fitz
Tuohy
Mcglighlin
Marshall
Jackson
McFadden

Other thoughts: I've said it on numerous occasions but what are Leinster planning on doing about their backrow situation. We have 4 young backrowers who all need seriiiious gametime next season at Rabo level but there are four players ahead of them. Why weren't they shipped off to Connacht? Hope McGlaughlin Jenno are overtaken by some of them.

Very odd that Fergus McFadden is rated ahead of Trimble, other than that no real surprises.

Absolutely delighted about the new caps especially Olding. Those two lads would have expected to be in the U20 RWC at the start of the season.

This was the team that played USA four years ago;

Gavin Duffy; Barry Murphy, Darren Cave, Ian Whitten, Ian Dowling; Ian Keatley, Peter Stringer; Tony Buckley, Rory Best (capt), Mike Ross, Bob Casey, Mick O'Driscoll, John Muldoon, Niall Ronan, Denis Leamy.

I think looking at that just shows how much our strength in depth has improved at 1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12, 14- all over really. We've a much better side to send over this year. No disrespect to the likes of Ian Whitten, Ian Dowling, Bob Casey etc. but there's a hell of a lot more talent and promise in this side.

O team announced as I was writing, also forgot about Ross.

Dissapointed with selection of players who will be of no benefit to us i.e. Jones, Toner,Boss

Casey and MOD > McCarthy and Toner IMO ...also Hendo should be more effective than Muldoon

gleesonisgod wrote:Yes but saying you that you prefer the NA Tour is a bit OTT dont you think. Having said that I'm much more exited for the USA game than the Reds game. Anyway this is a silly argument tis neither here nor there.

My XV :

Kilcoyne
Sherry
Hagan
Henderson
McCarthy
Henry
TOD
POM
Marmion .... surely starting Boss is slightly pointless
Madigan
Trimble
Olding
Cave
Zebo
Henshaw

Court
Strauss
Fitz
Tuohy
Mcglighlin
Marshall
Jackson
McFadden

Other thoughts: I've said it on numerous occasions but what are Leinster planning on doing about their backrow situation. We have 4 young backrowers who all need seriiiious gametime next season at Rabo level but there are four players ahead of them. Why weren't they shipped off to Connacht? Hope McGlaughlin Jenno are overtaken by some of them.

In interest terms? No. One is a financially over-sponsored jolly. The other is Irelands Future.

Gleeson was a 7 God btw. Like Jennings - failed by 2 x Cork coaches who never believed in them. And where are we now? Another non-7 at 7.

Really hope Joe sorts that one out and we move on up.

Either POM, Henderson or Dom Ryan for me.

Gibson - come on, would you really have selected Gleeson or Jennings over David Wallace? Who was one of the best 7s (yes, he was a 7) to play the game ever in my opinion. One of my all time favourites, and a huge loss for Ireland.

And although O'Brien is a "non-7" at 7 he did very well against the Western Force the other day as an openside. I was very impressed. He was all over the park and he worked so well with Heaslip, who also had a stormer. No point ignoring both of these guys so soon, and I doubt Schmidt will either.

Dominic Ryan needs to sort out his injuries before getting serious consideration. I think he looks the real deal though.

gleesonisgod wrote:O team announced as I was writing, also forgot about Ross.

Dissapointed with selection of players who will be of no benefit to us i.e. Jones, Toner,Boss

Toner is the most improved Irish player after Madigan & Murray in recent times. He is and will be, a major benefit to us, if he continues to build his dog up.

Here's hoping.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Gibson - come on, would you really have selected Gleeson or Jennings over David Wallace? Who was one of the best 7s (yes, he was a 7) to play the game ever in my opinion. One of my all time favourites, and a huge loss for Ireland.

And although O'Brien is a "non-7" at 7 he did very well against the Western Force the other day as an openside. I was very impressed. He was all over the park and he worked so well with Heaslip, who also had a stormer. No point ignoring both of these guys so soon, and I doubt Schmidt will either.

Dominic Ryan needs to sort out his injuries before getting serious consideration. I think he looks the real deal though.

Every time. Wallace was not a 7. He was a 6 with a serious attitude. Great player, played totally out of position.

Can I ask you, why have we been so shciitt over the last few years? I know why.

Just look at the Kee-Wees and get back to me.

He wore 7 on his back, he played better than most 7s he came up against and he was immense almost every game he played. All at 7, to say he wasn't a 7 is just silly. He was the perfect openside for both Munster and Ireland. Losing both him and Ferris has been huge. I genuinely cannot believe you would have picked Jennings over him!

I highly doubt not having a natural 7 is the reason we have been crap. There are a few reasons, an imbalanced back row being one of them. But that has more to do than simply having a "natural" 7/Jennings.

If Kiss was intending on picking the strongest side then Mike Sherry should have been in it. He was the best Irish hooker this season.

gleesonisgod wrote:O team announced as I was writing, also forgot about Ross.

Dissapointed with selection of players who will be of no benefit to us i.e. Jones, Toner,Boss

I have to agree with that. They should be building for the world cup in 2015 starting NOW. I would like to see Luke McGrath get a chance to push for a starting spot with Leinster next season. He is an outstanding player and its a position Ireland are really lacking. Marmion being left out of the squad is a puzzler.

Poor Mike Ross should be at home with his feet up now. He is still one of Irelands most important players.

Cant believe we are not giving our most naturally talented 9 in years, a chance in the US.

Deccie is gone Joe. Change it when you take real control.

Marshall wont make it. No way.

Decent selection with plenty to come in for the next game.

Marmion..?

Its the most inexperienced Irish side in terms of caps since 1962. That could be a reason why a few experienced players are there but they should be expecting to beat the USA and Canada anyway.

profitius wrote:Its the most inexperienced Irish side in terms of caps since 1962. That could be a reason why a few experienced players are there but they should be expecting to beat the USA and Canada anyway.

That's what I was thinking too Profitus. I think it is a complete waste of time when coaches put out a team without any experienced heads. If you want to make these kinda matches as beneficial as possible for young players then you need to incorporate some experienced players in to the team too.

Boss, Strauss and Ross are in the team for this reason. Also they have proven themselves pretty good in the past.

Definitely would have liked to have seen Marmion in ahead of Marshall though don't think Marshall has much of an international future.

profitius wrote:If Kiss was intending on picking the strongest side then Mike Sherry should have been in it. He was the best Irish hooker this season.

gleesonisgod wrote:O team announced as I was writing, also forgot about Ross.

Dissapointed with selection of players who will be of no benefit to us i.e. Jones, Toner,Boss

I have to agree with that. They should be building for the world cup in 2015 starting NOW. I would like to see Luke McGrath get a chance to push for a starting spot with Leinster next season. He is an outstanding player and its a position Ireland are really lacking. Marmion being left out of the squad is a puzzler.

Poor Mike Ross should be at home with his feet up now. He is still one of Irelands most important players.

I'd say Ross is keeping match fit in case the Lions have an injury at TH,he might be on the standby list.

Hi guys does anyone know if there TV coverage for this game and the emerging Ireland one?

I see no reason to disregard guys who probably won't be at the 2015 RWC.

There is no reason any player currently playing won't be available in 18 months time with right attitude and conditioning.

Ruling out any player is foolish IMO.

If you are good enough you are old enough. Thats the line everyone gives when they want young exciting players in the team.

But why is the opposite not true. Why is it "too late" for Isaac Boss or James Coughlan or Robbie Diack to get a chance to shine. Still lots of rugby to be played between now and 2015.

If we don't win the 2015 RWC then I know two more 6 Nations and beating the All Blacks would more than ease the pain for me.

Tg4 have the Ireland game at about 12.30am on Sunday morning I believe. The emerging one is being streamed I think. Not sure though rodders

Not sure if that comment is directed at me Stag, if so, I just don't think Marshall has the skill level for it, his pass is not good enough IMO, nothing to do with his age.

I like having experienced players play with these "more experimental" sides, I think it gives them a bit of direction and focus and in clutch situation a bit of support.

What time is this game starting and is it on tv?

I can only imagine Ross and Boss have been chosen to add a bit of experience to the team. Exciting backline though. Lots of pace and promise.

red_stag wrote:I see no reason to disregard guys who probably won't be at the 2015 RWC.

There is no reason any player currently playing won't be available in 18 months time with right attitude and conditioning.

Ruling out any player is foolish IMO.

If you are good enough you are old enough. Thats the line everyone gives when they want young exciting players in the team.

But why is the opposite not true. Why is it "too late" for Isaac Boss or James Coughlan or Robbie Diack to get a chance to shine. Still lots of rugby to be played between now and 2015.

If we don't win the 2015 RWC then I know two more 6 Nations and beating the All Blacks would more than ease the pain for me.

With the older guys you have to wonder who are they keeping out and why?

I see no issue with having Boss in there as we have a new backrow and only two of our players from 1-10 have 10 caps or more. A little bit of experience in there is a good thing. Marmion will get a game next time. I agree in principle with what you are saying stag but the argument could be made that it is more beneficial to give the youngsters gametime as their ceiling is higher and come 2015 with the right support and gametime they will have surpassed the older guys.

I think there is a happy medium and I don't think Schmidt is a million miles away with this selection. I also agree we won't see wholsesale changes in the autumn or rather that we might see the changes reflected more in our bench

Standulstermen wrote:Tg4 have the Ireland game at about 12.30am on Sunday morning I believe. The emerging one is being streamed I think. Not sure though rodders

If anyone finds a good link for the Emerging Ireland game tonight (10pm our time) would they mind putting it up here please?

Nah just in general Pete. I agree with you on Marshall 100%. Prompted by a comment above that said "They should be building for the world cup in 2015 starting NOW"

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Tg4 have the Ireland game at about 12.30am on Sunday morning I believe. The emerging one is being streamed I think. Not sure though rodders

If anyone finds a good link for the Emerging Ireland game tonight (10pm our time) would they mind putting it up here please?

What time is it their time Pete? I noted the times previously but it struck me that unless it is being played at about 1am over there are we not a few hours behind Georgia?

Houston is 6 hours behind us!

Yeah mrs P but Georgia isn't

Just checked the IRFU website.

It's 4pm our time kick off today

Sorry, Wrong match.

Tbilisi is 3 hours ahead of us. That game is at 19:00 our time.

Georgia v Emerging Ireland is on today at 4pm Irish time - streamed on the IRB youtube channel I believe

USA v Ireland is on at 1.30am Saturday night into Sunday morning and will be shown live on TG4 and repeated again around midday.

Okay!

Just ignore what I posted!

Gibson wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:O team announced as I was writing, also forgot about Ross.

Dissapointed with selection of players who will be of no benefit to us i.e. Jones, Toner,Boss

Toner is the most improved Irish player after Madigan & Murray in recent times. He is and will be, a major benefit to us, if he continues to build his dog up.

Here's hoping.

That was sort of true over 12 months ago. If you think Toner is even our 5th choice 2nd row, I worry about you. He makes MOD look like Paulie. He will never 'come good'. What we saw of him this season is his peak, and despite his height, he is the Sugar Loaf to the Alpine range of POC, Ryan, DOC, McCarthy, Touhy, Cullen, Holland........basically any second row older than Toner is better and the younger ones are most likely better but lack his relatie "experience".

debaters1 wrote:

Gibson wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:O team announced as I was writing, also forgot about Ross.

Dissapointed with selection of players who will be of no benefit to us i.e. Jones, Toner,Boss

Toner is the most improved Irish player after Madigan & Murray in recent times. He is and will be, a major benefit to us, if he continues to build his dog up.

Here's hoping.

That was sort of true over 12 months ago. If you think Toner is even our 5th choice 2nd row, I worry about you. He makes MOD look like Paulie. He will never 'come good'. What we saw of him this season is his peak, and despite his height, he is the Sugar Loaf to the Alpine range of POC, Ryan, DOC, McCarthy, Touhy, Cullen, Holland........basically any second row older than Toner is better and the younger ones are most likely better but lack his relatie "experience".

While I don't think Toner will ever become a real option at international level you can't really say for certain that "what we saw of him this season is his peak".Donnacha Ryan only came good at around 28 or so,some players develop late and that's especially true for the less talented guys.

Toner needs to be encouraged to bark more, yes.

Learn to frown menacingly from Mr. Frown Kearney; learn how to be a big bollix from Cullen, learn how to rage by listening to thrash metal on the customary phones......

He's technical but attitude is now required too

To return to the 10 debate, I really can see Madigan blooming with the Leinster 10 jersey this season, yet Sexton is a favorite of Joe's so i can well imagine some disgruntled pro-Madigan fans comes 6 nations. But despite this, its an embarrassment of riches, with a choice of Sexton, Madigan, Jackson being easily the best depth at OH in the NH. If joe gets the rotation right (and doesnt try and get two into three with a Sexton-Madigan 10-12 axis, I think we are going to be looking in good shape.

Ah great so this game tonight (Ireland vs Georgia) is watchable! Great looking forward to watching it!

Toner is way underrated IMO, he is one of the most skillful locks we have I think and although he is weak in a few areas these are all areas that can be improved. He is still young for a lock in retrospect and has some years of development ahead of him.

Also the sugar loaf is a beautiful wee mountain.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/29298.php

ps: We all ignored Mrs P, but it says 4pm Irish time on the website!

Toner just isn't ever going to be powerful in the tight though Pete and its not going to be improved. He's always going to be an average lock because he lacks power- as a carrier, in the scrums, in the mauls. It's not attitude- its sheer power. He has a lanky build and he struggles to use his size effectively. Give me a 6'5 nutcase over him anyday.

We're looking for a guy to partner Ryan long term and replace O'Callaghan- he needs to be a grafter, a physical player and Toner isn't it. It's the major weakness of Leinster this past season (a Brad Thorn or a Nathan Hines and they could be celebrating 3 HCs in a row right now) and if he starts in big tests and isn't partnered by a baby eating enforcer, which we don't really have, it'll be a weakness for Ireland. There are some guys we know aren't really going to make it- McLaughlin, Toner, P. Marshall- and there is no point beating around the bush about it. Toner is well behind Ryan and O'Connell in the pecking order for 5 whereas O'Callaghan, Tuohy, McCarthy and Stevenson are all better options at 4. He doesn't have the attributes to partner Ryan or O'Connell and owes his gametime here to their absence.

The American point of view here; http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/07/usa-eagles-ireland-rugby-mike-tolkin?CMP=twt_gu

Its dissapointing that Georgia are only sending out a development team. They are missing around 13 players- most if which play in the top14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1pAn8q8U_0

Emerging match being streamed live.

Notch I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

One point though, Ryan and Toner should never be in the same team. Toner is competing with Ryan and as third choice isn't all that bad, when POC retures I can see TOner being used more and more.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Notch I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

One point though, Ryan and Toner should never be in the same team. Toner is competing with Ryan and as third choice isn't all that bad, when POC retures I can see TOner being used more and more.

Not a good sign for Irelands future at lock that is it Pete! He has precisely none of the attributes of a decent international lock, sorry.

This game is pretty tight. Georgian players are all massive. Ireland are trying to batter through the red wall and finding it hard to make yards.