Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

We are making rookie mistakes here.

Most of our 1st XV are away now and it shows.

We're one trick ponies with that damn choke tackle.......

Man, Tom Court.

what happened on that freekick???

Christ lads

OMFG.. gees what was that all about...

Riding your luck boys

Pretty disappointing if we don't get a try

Mon lads. Cool heads now.

Show yer stuff Maddser.

Believe.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Pretty disappointing if we don't get a try

Don`t agree.And Im a big sexshy rugby fan .

We just need to win this one.

Punt uit.

Yeah that came out wrong, I am disappointed that we have not played well enough to get one

We seem to have run out of all pre-planned moves and tactics...just hanging in there now on instinct.

Quite disappointed. Knew USA was going to be tough and physical but I expected more ideas from Ireland.

Are Ireland trying to lose this or what?

Have to say, despite lions depletions, am impressed by Japan and the States competitiveness

hmmm....

Great take... and needed.. game done

Bigger picture, after this weekend.. even withstanding lions depletions.. game is going global properly... Wales hanging on against Japan, Ireland hanging on against the states, Scotland well and truly beaten by Samoa, Italy showing up well against SA... I like it, not sure I should, but I like it

The crowd are waiting for the other two quarters...

clivemcl wrote:The crowd are waiting for the other two quarters...

22 hours of Rugby... knackered .. goodnight lads

Some good showings I guess but overall I thought that was pretty poor from Ireland.

Guys like Strauss, Zebo, Boss didn't have great games at all on the up-side, McCarthy, Madigan, POM all did and the scrum went well.

Ha great moment where McCarthy has to remind POM to go down the tunnel that the USA players have created before thanks the crowd.

Don't know what to say really. Don't want to be too negative because that would belittle the effort of the Americans who pressurised Ireland into making mistakes.... but neither did I see too much of any new way. Zebo was so far away from the efforts tonight that I hardly saw him in any camera shot. We'll see what transpires against Canada.

Anyway, I'm off to bed too if I can make it there before falling asleep!

Sweet Mother Of Divine Jeezuz.

I'd do that Weather girl's washin.

Gibson wrote:Sweet Mother Of Divine Jeezuz.

I'd do that Weather girl's washin.

A pretty young metreoligically gifted lassie, Gibs?
Maybe she's got a bit of Oirish in her (as we speak)...

I thought Boss, Toner, Strauss, Henshaw and Zebo were terrible last night. You can say its harsh on Henshaw but this is international rugby and he'll be judged by higher standards.

I hope Les Kiss never has anything to do with attacking rugby after the next match. During the week he talked about controlling Madigan and how Ireland were concentrating on the forwards. It showed. There was no backline plan so the players didn't get an opportunity to use their talent.

POM was easily the MOTM with Olding, Madigan, McFadden and Henry having decent games.

Special mention for Zebo who did his best to avoid contact. He was a disgrace to the jersey and should lose his place when the autumn internationals come round. The first high ball he was running under it but stopped and kicked it instead of catching it in case an American player challenged him. That set the tone for his night.

O'Mahony always does well at 8. I thought that monstrous tackle on him at the start would shake him a bit, but the guy has some mental strength doesn't he. No, he carried all night and was right in the faces of the americans. He should be challenging Heaslip for the 8 shirt, where I have always thought he is best. Very good leader too, reminds me of POC. My only thought is he should spend the summer bulking up a bit more, he is still rather small for an 8.

I thought Hendy was really good in defence, one of the few players to match the physicality. I think he caused about 5 turnovers mostly through the choke tackle. I would have liked to see him used as a carrying option more, but lets be honest we didn't get to see many players show their attacking intent last night.

Prof - bit harsh on Zebo and Henshaw. Henshaw made some costly mistakes, but looked very dangerous at times. Huge potential I still think he looks more like a 13 than a 15 though. As for Zebo, he had a poor game but he is just back from injury. Hopefully he will forget this night and be back to his best soon.

The MOTM imo was Manoa.. Made some huge hits and good carries. I don't see how any irish player deserves a motm after that performance.

Yeah Manoa had a good game, that hit on O'Mahony was something else. I guess out of the Irish players though O'Mahony was the best.

Still am in utter shock that we created so little in the first half yet had 70% possession. It's almost incomprehensible

Rory_Gallagher wrote: As for Zebo, he had a poor game but he is just back from injury. Hopefully he will forget this night and be back to his best soon.

He forgot it before he played it, Rory. I have a feeling he had already heard of the Lions call up and was............... protecting himself. I find that thought so alien to my entire notion of Ireland and what it should mean to play for your Nation. It's the kind of thing that makes me critical of the notion of the Lions at all.

Zebo might indeed be only back from injury and trying to be careful. Okay, so that might be understandable if true but then he expects to go to Australia and put his hand up for a test spot if he gets a chance in a lesser game? He knows what he'll have to do if that chance comes around, and his performance last night won't be close to being enough. So being careful is relative. Careful in an Irish shirt - all out to impress in the Lions red one?

Another get-out-of-jail point for him might be that Kiss did indeed concentrate resources on defence rather than attack. If so, he (Kiss) again put much more pressure on his young and Internationally inexperienced players than they needed. I repeat what I said when Kidney was let go: Let's hope the right man was sacked. Kiss, again, didn't inspire me with anything that looked different to the usual Irish performance where good and great players always looked/look uneasy playing the Irish way. Maybe Kiss was more a direct reason for onfield tactics than Mr fallguy Kidney. I'd be concerned about Kiss's continued role in the Irish set-up. Someone somewhere still doesn't have a clue how to turn around an overly defensive game into one of pressure relieving attack.

Schmidt will now come in and be more active in the Canada game we're told. But Kiss was quick to point out that he and Schmidt will bounce off each other in opinions, that it won't be a straight 'yes, sir' relationship. I hope Schmidt holds the reins firmly (no discussion required) on the percentage of games devoted to attack.

But back to Zebo. If he didn't need any of those excuses and just personally removed himself from the heat of battle, then by his lack of involvment, he weakened the entire unit. He shirked his responsibilities for all of those players to help each other out and put their names into the mind of Schmidt. He let some very good young players down.

Jesus that was a dreadful match. I thought O'Mahony, McFadden and Henderson had decent games. Don't think Henshaw was quite that bad.

The worst I have ever seen an Irish lineout perform.

In all fairness Fly, defending was one of the only things the Americans could do well, so you got to take that in to account regarding our attack

Serious damage was done to Strauss, toner, Ross and boss although the latter doesn't have many pretensions on a starting jersey anyway.

I thought Henry was solid. Won't ever be first choice IMO but he turned over plenty of ball (in fact all the back row did). Olding was excellent I thought. Looked dangerous on the rare occasions when he got the ball and was superb defensively.

Madigan was a bit of a curates egg for me. Kicked well but Jackson was savaged in the press for better. Just illustrates hat both these young lads will need time to acclimatise to test rugby.

Standulstermen wrote:Serious damage was done to Strauss, toner, Ross and boss although the latter doesn't have many pretensions on a starting jersey anyway.

I thought Henry was solid. Won't ever be first choice IMO but he turned over plenty of ball (in fact all the back row did). Olding was excellent I thought. Looked dangerous on the rare occasions when he got the ball and was superb defensively.

Madigan was a bit of a curates egg for me. Kicked well but Jackson was savaged in the press for better. Just illustrates hat both these young lads will need time to acclimatise to test rugby.

That's cos blaming Jackson was easy when the entire team was clueless,we won't know what either Madigan or Jackson are truly capable of at this level until they're playing in a team that has a functioning plan of attack.

Standulstermen wrote:Serious damage was done to Strauss, toner, Ross and boss although the latter doesn't have many pretensions on a starting jersey anyway.

I thought Henry was solid. Won't ever be first choice IMO but he turned over plenty of ball (in fact all the back row did). Olding was excellent I thought. Looked dangerous on the rare occasions when he got the ball and was superb defensively.

Madigan was a bit of a curates egg for me. Kicked well but Jackson was savaged in the press for better. Just illustrates hat both these young lads will need time to acclimatise to test rugby.

What damage has been done to Ross??? He completely bossed the scrum which is what he's there for...

profitius wrote:Special mention for Zebo who did his best to avoid contact. He was a disgrace to the jersey and should lose his place when the autumn internationals come round. The first high ball he was running under it but stopped and kicked it instead of catching it in case an American player challenged him. That set the tone for his night.

I only saw the last 5 mins of the match so not sure if the above is true, but if it is true (and we see Zebo in fact is off to the lions today) then it is an indictment of Zebo's passion for the Irish jersey and also stupidity, as trying to avoid injury is just about the most likely way to get injured on a rugby pitch.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Serious damage was done to Strauss, toner, Ross and boss although the latter doesn't have many pretensions on a starting jersey anyway.

I thought Henry was solid. Won't ever be first choice IMO but he turned over plenty of ball (in fact all the back row did). Olding was excellent I thought. Looked dangerous on the rare occasions when he got the ball and was superb defensively.

Madigan was a bit of a curates egg for me. Kicked well but Jackson was savaged in the press for better. Just illustrates hat both these young lads will need time to acclimatise to test rugby.

What damage has been done to Ross??? He completely bossed the scrum which is what he's there for...

And outside of that he was dreadful, coughing up possession on numerous occasions. No passengers at international level. We need to unearth a new TH and fast

Ross was shocking in the loose, along with Toner. Embarrassingly so.

Ireland could never generate momentum because Strauss was so woeful from the line. He wasn't any great shakes in open play either and it was totally baffling that Sherry wasn't introduced before his token appearance.

O'Mahoney had a good game and showed good leadership especially his cuddle with the referee as they headed towards the dressing room at halftime.

Henshaw isn't ready for Test rugby. Maybe he was shocked that the ref could allow such a forward pass from McFadden, but he should have taken it just the same. He was indecisive under the high ball at the back and nearly cost at least one try.

Olding is ready for Test rugby. He was composed throughout and his try-saving tackle epitomised his sterling defence. He caused plenty of problems in attack too and will be dangerous in a coached backline.

Apparently the Yanks are impressed by Toner being the tallest player in "world rugby", or maybe it was because there was nothing else impressive about him? A Test lock can't be falling off tackles like that.

Ollie Madigan was indeed a curates egg with just as much Murs as Campbell. It was good he stayed on for the full 80 and will have learned a lot from that.

Standulstermen wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Serious damage was done to Strauss, toner, Ross and boss although the latter doesn't have many pretensions on a starting jersey anyway.

I thought Henry was solid. Won't ever be first choice IMO but he turned over plenty of ball (in fact all the back row did). Olding was excellent I thought. Looked dangerous on the rare occasions when he got the ball and was superb defensively.

Madigan was a bit of a curates egg for me. Kicked well but Jackson was savaged in the press for better. Just illustrates hat both these young lads will need time to acclimatise to test rugby.

What damage has been done to Ross??? He completely bossed the scrum which is what he's there for...

And outside of that he was dreadful, coughing up possession on numerous occasions. No passengers at international level. We need to unearth a new TH and fast

We've been saying that for 15 years,there are some kids coming through that might make it but it won't happen for another few years.Until then we're stuck with Ross,Hagan,Deccie Fitz,Bent and possibly Archer if he continues improving.It's not a group overflowing with talent.

Standulstermen wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Serious damage was done to Strauss, toner, Ross and boss although the latter doesn't have many pretensions on a starting jersey anyway.

I thought Henry was solid. Won't ever be first choice IMO but he turned over plenty of ball (in fact all the back row did). Olding was excellent I thought. Looked dangerous on the rare occasions when he got the ball and was superb defensively.

Madigan was a bit of a curates egg for me. Kicked well but Jackson was savaged in the press for better. Just illustrates hat both these young lads will need time to acclimatise to test rugby.

What damage has been done to Ross??? He completely bossed the scrum which is what he's there for...

And outside of that he was dreadful, coughing up possession on numerous occasions. No passengers at international level. We need to unearth a new TH and fast

and when has he ever been good at anything else? You know what your getting with Ross so why do people still complain about his ball carrying etc?

He's there to scrummage nothing else... Don't worry we have new TH's coming through. Two fantastic ones infact in Moore and Furlong. Just be patient, its not an overnight fix.

I'm sorry but no one has mentioned the fact that this was probably one of the worst refereeing performances ever in an international test. I don't usually complain about refereeing but why were the USA exempt from being offside, why was the breakdown just ignored completely? Nothing much Madigan can do with such a poor performance from the pack and a permanently offside USA

Strauss was really, really bad and definitely should not be starting next week. Really stunted our back play and go forward.

Anyone think that McCarthy was hugely improved? I was not impressed with him in the 6Nations and that was a bit of a blow cos I thought he was great the Autumn before, I thought he really put himself about yesterday/today/whatever.

Boss was another who disappointed me, these are the kinda games he is supposed to really excel in and he got scragged a few too many times.

God that was awful. A horrible game of rugby.

Refereeing was dodgy, but equally dodgy for both sides it seemed to me. The attack should have been so much better. Madigan's kicks almost always went too far for the chase to get close enough to compete for the ball and handed possession back too easily. The American's defense was good but really, Canada beats this side consistently. And I can't imagine that another top 10 side would have looked so lost in attack.

O'Mahony, McFadden, Olding all played well. The scrum was great. I'm not sure what else. Much more should have been done with the territory and possession that the Irish team had. I'm disappointed and almost wish that the USA had won. I don't feel that our shabby side really deserved to celebrate after that.

Strauss hasn't been the same since his injury. Maybe he would have been better off taking a rest for the summer and getting a full pre season in.

I'd love to have an informed opinion but I got up early this morning to watch my recording, managed about half an hour and based on the quality of play went back to bed.

By the sounds of it if there are to be a big winner for next weeks selection it's Sherry and Tuohy who will benefit. Frustrating then, that Madigan wasn't given the platform to show what he can do. It's over to Paddy Jackson next week I suspect.

Intotouch wrote:God that was awful. A horrible game of rugby.

Refereeing was dodgy, but equally dodgy for both sides it seemed to me. The attack should have been so much better. Madigan's kicks almost always went too far for the chase to get close enough to compete for the ball and handed possession back too easily. The American's defense was good but really, Canada beats this side consistently. And I can't imagine that another top 10 side would have looked so lost in attack.

O'Mahony, McFadden, Olding all played well. The scrum was great. I'm not sure what else. Much more should have been done with the territory and possession that the Irish team had. I'm disappointed and almost wish that the USA had won. I don't feel that our shabby side really deserved to celebrate after that.

Canada beat a second string USA side consistently. The US rarely if ever have all their European based players playing for them at once. (This is only Manoa's 2nd cap!) I'm sure this side would blow Canada away.

I might make myself watch it again because of Madigan tbf. Need to see how he can perform outside the Leinster bubble, where he impresses in systems he is comfortable with surrounded by experienced players. To be honest this game is more valuable experience for him as a test 10 than a dozen walkovers would be.

Based on the description of the lineout and the packs performance in the loose there is no blame to be leveled at the 10 whatsoever.

Notch wrote:I might make myself watch it again because of Madigan tbf. Need to see how he can perform outside the Leinster bubble, where he impresses in systems he is comfortable with surrounded by experienced players. To be honest this game is more valuable experience for him as a test 10 than a dozen walkovers would be.

Based on the description of the lineout and the packs performance in the loose there is no blame to be leveled at the 10 whatsoever.

For an outhalf it was amazing how little he touched the ball in the entire game which as you said was due to the complete anarchy at the breakdown and thee failing lineout.

Ledge the ledgebag wrote:

Notch wrote:I might make myself watch it again because of Madigan tbf. Need to see how he can perform outside the Leinster bubble, where he impresses in systems he is comfortable with surrounded by experienced players. To be honest this game is more valuable experience for him as a test 10 than a dozen walkovers would be.

Based on the description of the lineout and the packs performance in the loose there is no blame to be leveled at the 10 whatsoever.

For an outhalf it was amazing how little he touched the ball in the entire game which as you said was due to the complete anarchy at the breakdown and thee failing lineout.

Completely agree. The lineout was seriously disappointing. We looked like amateurs in that department