Players who polarise opinions

I started a thread about Greg Laidlaw recently which showed how far apart people's views were about him (surprisingly, the majority of positive comments came from non-Scots)
Anyway, that got me thinking. Which players (of undoubted ability) polarise views? I think we can all agree that Gavin Henson may be a total helmet but he can be a great player so we will exclude the likes of him. I am looking for names that cause debate about his worthiness to wear "the jersey".
Let's start he ball rolling with Dan Parks and Ryan Lamb (never understood the downer English fans had for him)

Ryan Lamb is in theory a really good attacking 10 with the skill set to be an international. Hos career has been marred by defensive issues and brain farts. Far too many interception passes thrown and misjudged kicks that have proven costly.

Tom Croft.

Mike Phillips

Danny Care

Tom Varndell

as starters.

Mike Phillips is a good one. You either love or hate him, in saying that though I think even his critics would accept that he is good at what he does its just that a lot of people think that what he does isn't very good.

Manu Tuilagi and Chris Ashton.

Both can play sublimely, but there always seems to be a question mark over them.

Tuilagi, big and powerful, draws defences in, hard to stop. But, appears greedy, runs into contact more often than not and has a poorly developed offloading game.

Ashton, pacy and strong but out of form. Weak defensively and more likely to give a penalty away than run 80 meters to score (like v Oz) these days.

Both great club assets - well, Ashton even here appears to be struggling - but personally, I worry about their international credentials.

Wee bit harsh on Croft and Phillips. Good shout on Danny Care, though

Ben Youngs
Ronan O'Gara
Rhys Priestland/Dan Biggar/James Hook/Next Wales 10
Tim Visser

Ronan O'Gara is another who comes to mind. He is the all time leading points scorer in the 6N, HC and one of the highest in international rugby. He also is one of the most internationally capped players of all time. He's done amazing things for Munster and Ireland.

Some people however refuse to see him as anything other than a wet paper bag. I'm not just talking his recent terrible form either (which may have come to an end against Connacht). Even at the height of his career many hated him.

Again, I think its a case of him being exceptional at certain things such as goal kicking and territorial kicking whilst being very weak in defence. I also think a lot of people despise him because he was one of those players that wins matches against your team with a last minute drop goal or place kick.

Beat me to it LT

Phillips I think is the best example. He is a gifted athlete and a fantastic rugby player. He is however a poor Scrum Half! Put him at no.8 or inside centre and watch the carnage!

Injuredyetagain both Croft and Phillips do obviously have talent but both have skill sets that don't fit with the conventional blindside flanker and scrum half perception which polarises opinion.

Jimpy I agree to an extent though I am not sure opinion is that polarised. I think pretty much everyone would agree Ashton is in really poor form at the moment.

Manu Tuilagi is a more interesting one though.

Cuthbert - either a stong attacking player,or a turnstyle in defence
Roberts - Cuthbert but the other way around

Steffon Armitage

beshocked wrote:Injuredyetagain both Croft and Phillips do obviously have talent but both have skill sets that don't fit with the conventional blindside flanker and scrum half perception which polarises opinion.

Jimpy I agree to an extent though I am not sure opinion is that polarised. I think pretty much everyone would agree Ashton is in really poor form at the moment.

Manu Tuilagi is a more interesting one though.

Well it has been the cause of some debate during the 6N, but perhaps not that polarised, no. He shouldn't be a starting winger for England for now. England MUST be looking to the likes of Wade et el to try to shake things up.

beshocked wrote:Steffon Armitage

Dunno about that. I think most English fans recognise that he ought to be back in the fold.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Injuredyetagain both Croft and Phillips do obviously have talent but both have skill sets that don't fit with the conventional blindside flanker and scrum half perception which polarises opinion.

Jimpy I agree to an extent though I am not sure opinion is that polarised. I think pretty much everyone would agree Ashton is in really poor form at the moment.

Manu Tuilagi is a more interesting one though.

Well it has been the cause of some debate during the 6N, but perhaps not that polarised, no. He shouldn't be a starting winger for England for now. England MUST be looking to the likes of Wade et el to try to shake things up.

I agree.

Also Euan Murray is another because of his whole not playing on sunday beliefs.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Steffon Armitage

Dunno about that. I think most English fans recognise that he ought to be back in the fold.

I disagree with that.

England have two young decent openside flankers in Ksevic and Fraser who I think will make an impact.

Steffon Armitage has looked good in the Top 14 and in a relatively weak HC pool but he hasn't been challenged on the international stage or the real top teams in the HC.

Plus by playing in France for Toulon it means he'll miss training sessions with England.

Steffon Armitage in my opinion is still largely unproven.

Keith Earls for Ireland.

The guy is undoubtedly talented and, I think, would be a world class 7s player, but far too often he fails to give a crucial pass, or gets brushed off in defence.

Monkeyan wrote:Keith Earls for Ireland.

The guy is undoubtedly talented and, I think, would be a world class 7s player, but far too often he fails to give a crucial pass, or gets brushed off in defence.

He's pants thats why, same with Conor Murray and Chris Ashton.

Paul Marshall for Ulster...can't understand how some people can't see how good he is.

rodders wrote:

He's pants thats why, same with Conor Murray and Chris Ashton.

Paul Marshall for Ulster...can't understand how some people can't see how good he is.

Small P can be great, but he is prone to complete meltdowns. He's a fantastic guy to bring off the bench and change the tempo of a game, but if Pienaar got injured and had to miss a big HC game, I'd be pretty nervous.

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Steffon Armitage

Dunno about that. I think most English fans recognise that he ought to be back in the fold.

I disagree with that.

England have two young decent openside flankers in Ksevic and Fraser who I think will make an impact.

Steffon Armitage has looked good in the Top 14 and in a relatively weak HC pool but he hasn't been challenged on the international stage or the real top teams in the HC.

Plus by playing in France for Toulon it means he'll miss training sessions with England.

Steffon Armitage in my opinion is still largely unproven.

Ah, I agree he's largely unproven at international level. But does he really polarise opinion? I think most people would agree that he's a very good player. French player's player of the year? I doubt they'd vote for an Englishmen were he not suitably impressive.

Ireland has so many guys who polarise opinion:

- Tom Court
- John Hayes
- Donnacha O'Callaghan
- Paddy Wallace
- Ronan O'Gara
- Andrew Trimble
- Keith Earls

Trimble?! Are you madder than Mad Jack McMad from Madchester? I don't know anyone who doesn't think he is a good player. If he is unloved, I'm sure Edinburgh could find a place somewhere in the back line for him

Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

Well most Irish outside of the Ulster contingent think Trimble is tripe. Doesn't get great press in the South

The Trimble fans, wanted him to start the 6 nations, the Trimble not so much likers thought is was a fair call to have (selfish) keith (DK's lovechild) Earls in ahead of him, and not even in the squad.

Chris Ashton is a player I really sorta dislike, the show off swallow dives and overall cocky demeanor, it makes him easy to dislike. However in saying that I really respect the way he stood up to Tuilagi's punches, and I grew alot of respect for him for that.

Which makes me hate him more, for making me like him, when all I wanted was a hate figure.

Used to dislike Steve Thompson for no real reason, called him the pollution, as he polluted my TV screen, but again he got my respect for paying back his insurance money to play rugby again.

Some interesting discussions.

I think you can probably group those being discussed into 3 categories -

1 - Good players on the field, but whose personality or off-field behaviour make many fans turn against them (Henson, Care, Ashton to some extent).

2 - Players with good strengths but serious limitations in their game. ROG is the archetype of this (as was Stringer). If you want a guy to kick you to victory, ROG was one of the best. If you want your 10 to make a break or a tackle, ROG was not your man.

3 - Unconventional players. The Mike Philips's and Tom Croft's of the world (I'd also argue Chris Patterson fell into this group), who have very good attributes as rugby players but who do not necessarily fit well in to the conventions of their position.

With regard to both Phillips and Croft, I think that fans actually are a bit blind to the numerous occasions they actually do the right things reasonably well - OK, Phillips pass is not fantastic for an international SH, but it's a sight better than Bergomasco's and it is not so much of a liability that his team mates can't cope with it.

red_stag wrote:Ireland has so many guys who polarise opinion:

- Tom Court
- John Hayes
- Donnacha O'Callaghan
- Paddy Wallace
- Ronan O'Gara
- Andrew Trimble
- Keith Earls

Keith Earls is the best example there. He does tend to get scapegoated a bit, unfairly IMO.
Not sure Paddy Wallace has divided Irish opinion throughout his career!

Aled Brew
Nicky Robinson
Dan Biggar

Andy Powell
Gethin Jenkins

Jimpy wrote:Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

A guy who generates a lot of debate.

Some fans think he would be a guaranteed starter for Ireland.
Others think he isn't good enough to make an Irish extended squad.

To me thats what polarises opinion no?

Yeah Tom Croft divides opinions.

Half think he's unique, a special player....half think he's a glorified winger.

Varndell is one for sure.

The stats say he's England's best winger by a country mile and has been for the last 4 years. He's already smashed the all time AP try scoring record.

The Int coaches and Leicester fans say he's a lazy tackle dodger who's work shy.

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:Well most Irish outside of the Ulster contingent think Trimble is tripe. Doesn't get great press in the South

nonsense. I have always been a fan. great player.

Oh and I think the player who did briefly polarise opinion between England fans to the greatest Extremes was Ben Youngs across the 2011/12 season. I fondly remember the wild and emotional debates with Sam, LT and Beshocked over his lack of form, skill, weight and MJ always sticking with him.

Good times, good times.

Aus: Quade Cooper
SA: John Smit
NZ: Spencer
Fra: Trinh Duc
Eng: Croft
Sco: Visser
Irl: O'Gara
Wal: Henson

red_stag wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

A guy who generates a lot of debate.

Some fans think he would be a guaranteed starter for Ireland.
Others think he isn't good enough to make an Irish extended squad.

To me thats what polarises opinion no?

People who end a sentence with the word 'no' in this context also polarise opinion. Some people think they're patronising knobs, considering a perfectly reasonable question was asked. Then again, some don't.

yappysnap wrote:Varndell is one for sure.

The stats say he's England's best winger by a country mile and has been for the last 4 years. He's already smashed the all time AP try scoring record.

The Int coaches and Leicester fans say he's a lazy tackle dodger who's work shy.

Unfortunately, thats exactly what he is. On the other hand, going forward he's a different player.

yappysnap wrote:Varndell is one for sure.

The stats say he's England's best winger by a country mile and has been for the last 4 years. He's already smashed the all time AP try scoring record.

The Int coaches and Leicester fans say he's a lazy tackle dodger who's work shy.

Some do. I was sad he lefty us, but thought Sean Edwards might sort him out. That he did not is a shame, yet I still wanted him to turn his back on Wasps when he was discussing new contract and return to us. I would love to see him go to Argentina with England.


PS Mark Cueto is still the leading all time try scorer in Premiership on 76, Steve Hanley on 75 and Varndell on 72.

Jimpy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

A guy who generates a lot of debate.

Some fans think he would be a guaranteed starter for Ireland.
Others think he isn't good enough to make an Irish extended squad.

To me thats what polarises opinion no?

People who end a sentence with the word 'no' in this context also polarise opinion. Some people think they're patronising knobs, considering a perfectly reasonable question was asked. Then again, some don't.

Given that Stag gave a fairly reasonable response to your question suggesting some people might think he is a patronising knob would be a bit of a stretch in this case, no?

GunsGerms wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

A guy who generates a lot of debate.

Some fans think he would be a guaranteed starter for Ireland.
Others think he isn't good enough to make an Irish extended squad.

To me thats what polarises opinion no?

People who end a sentence with the word 'no' in this context also polarise opinion. Some people think they're patronising knobs, considering a perfectly reasonable question was asked. Then again, some don't.

Given that Stag gave a fairly reasonable response to your question suggesting some people might think he is a patronising knob would be a bit of a stretch in this case, no?

I found the tone of the reply patronising. Opinions are polarised on whether thats any of your business or not, no?

red_stag wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

A guy who generates a lot of debate.

Some fans think he would be a guaranteed starter for Ireland.
Others think he isn't good enough to make an Irish extended squad.

To me thats what polarises opinion no?

He generates debate because he's from Coleraine. Ulster players always generate debate because the Irish media and the majority of the Irish rugby watching public want to find reasons not to select them.

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

A guy who generates a lot of debate.

Some fans think he would be a guaranteed starter for Ireland.
Others think he isn't good enough to make an Irish extended squad.

To me thats what polarises opinion no?

He generates debate because he's from Coleraine. Ulster players always generate debate because the Irish media and the majority of the Irish rugby watching public want to find reasons not to select them.

Leave it out Rodders. Thats ridiculous. Do you think the majority of ROI rugby fans are googling Ulster fans to see if they are from ROI or NI, Catholic or protestant in determining if they deserve to be capped?

All I care about is that they are good enough, as do the majority of fans.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

A guy who generates a lot of debate.

Some fans think he would be a guaranteed starter for Ireland.
Others think he isn't good enough to make an Irish extended squad.

To me thats what polarises opinion no?

He generates debate because he's from Coleraine. Ulster players always generate debate because the Irish media and the majority of the Irish rugby watching public want to find reasons not to select them.

Leave it out Rodders. Thats ridiculous. Do you think the majority of ROI rugby fans are googling Ulster fans to see if they are from ROI or NI, Catholic or protestant in determining if they deserve to be capped?

All I care about is that they are good enough, as do the majority of fans.

rodders

Trimble generates debate because he displays good form for Ulster, but has rarely been able to replicate that in a green jersey, though his own fault or otherwise.
Let's leave it at that.

It aint a North v South thing.

Click on my username and see my list of favourite players. Trimble is there alongside David Wallace and Mils Muliania.

I think he's a great player. Others don't.

I reckon though people are just eager to see a new face. Trimble has been in the Ireland team for 7 years with around 50 caps. He's got a lot still to give but Gilroy, Zebo etc are the popular ones now.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Perhaps some of us (myself included) are getting players who 'polarise opinon' mixed up with players that are 'out of form'.

I agree though, what has Trimble done to deserve a nomination?

A guy who generates a lot of debate.

Some fans think he would be a guaranteed starter for Ireland.
Others think he isn't good enough to make an Irish extended squad.

To me thats what polarises opinion no?

He generates debate because he's from Coleraine. Ulster players always generate debate because the Irish media and the majority of the Irish rugby watching public want to find reasons not to select them.

Leave it out Rodders. Thats ridiculous. Do you think the majority of ROI rugby fans are googling Ulster fans to see if they are from ROI or NI, Catholic or protestant in determining if they deserve to be capped?

All I care about is that they are good enough, as do the majority of fans.

I think the majority of Irish fans watch their rugby on RTE and read the indo, times, independent etc. and are influenced on some level by the anti ulster propaganda which is endemic throughout the southern Irish media.

Trimble's treatment compared to his southern contempories, in particular Keith Earls, is pretty appalling to be honest.

To be honest I have always been a big Trimble fan even though I tend to have nothing in common with religious zealots. It matters not though because he is a great player and professional.

I watch all Irish matches on the BBC because Philip Matthews is a personal hero of mine, I have met him and he is a legend and the best commentator out there.

RTE is ok except you have to understand that Hook talks nonsense just to get a reaction.

As for other media most are former players so will be naturally biased towards their provinces.

Gerry Thornley isnt but is an apaulingly poor rugby journalist so I wouldnt read his articles much.

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I have always been a big Trimble fan even though I tend to have nothing in common with religious zealots. It matters not though because he is a great player and professional.

I don't have anything in common with religious zealots either but happen to think a persons religious beliefs generally aren't really my concern.

Rodders, I don't think its anything to do with Coleraine, James Nesbitt is kinda from Coleraine and people love him.

People love Coleraine cheddar, and I love Coleraine Whiskey (like a cheap Jameson, ideal for hot whiskies and save the Jameson for on its own).

Coleraine is close to Portrush, and the seaside towns. I don't see why youd think people would hold being from Coleraine against him, it s a nice enough spot.
Now if he was from Ballybogey I could understand that as its a funny name, or anywhere is County Down, you could hold it against them.

I have seen Trimble, Earls and Fitzgerald all get lauded and slated in almost equal measure. Provincial loyalties has often had a big part to play.

On Paul Marshall I agree. Every time I see him play he's electric from the base of the scrum, he certainly caused Edinburgh problems with his pace on Friday. Yet several Ulster fans said he was rubbish. Definitly seems to be an agenda with certainly fans and him.

My nomination would be Courtney Lawes. I think he's an exceptional lock, powerful, athletic and a crunching (albeit occasionally arms free or late) tackler. Yet some on here really don't see him that way, and very much a reserve international at best. I'd personally take him with the Lions, and yet other posters don't think he should be in the England XV (some good posters as well). Just goes to show that fans see players differently, often for perfectly legitimate reasons (i.e. not solely based on nationality or club allegiance).