Players who polarise opinions

First topic message reminder :

I started a thread about Greg Laidlaw recently which showed how far apart people's views were about him (surprisingly, the majority of positive comments came from non-Scots)
Anyway, that got me thinking. Which players (of undoubted ability) polarise views? I think we can all agree that Gavin Henson may be a total helmet but he can be a great player so we will exclude the likes of him. I am looking for names that cause debate about his worthiness to wear "the jersey".
Let's start he ball rolling with Dan Parks and Ryan Lamb (never understood the downer English fans had for him)

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I have always been a big Trimble fan even though I tend to have nothing in common with religious zealots. It matters not though because he is a great player and professional.

I don't have anything in common with religious zealots either but happen to think a persons religious beliefs generally aren't really my concern.

Indeed that was the point I was making. Still, not sure why you think most Ireland rugby fans look for reasons not to want Ulster players to be picked.

If anything Munster and Leinster fans would be more biased against eachother to notice Ulster players.

Lawes
Croft

Not a big fan of either. Lawes looks for the big smash too often.
Croft good in the lineout and quick in open space but doesnt do what you want your blindside to do.

Sometimes I watch Varndell on TV and think he is awesome. Then you see him live and see his pathetic attempts at tackling and his completely non existent defence and realise why he isnt an international.

Steffon Armitage is awesome and should be an international. has outplayed so many top opensides in the Top 14 and Heineken Cup. MOTM when up against Warburton in HC this year.

Lawes is a very good call. He certainly has a cult following but others don't rate him that highly.

stnick88 wrote:Steffon Armitage is awesome and should be an international. has outplayed so many top opensides in the Top 14 and Heineken Cup. MOTM when up against Warburton in HC this year.

While I am one of those who just cannot understand the adoration he garners. I still feel he goes missing for long periods of matches and only plays well when his tight 5 are dominating.

I will agree with Rodders that there is a southern Irish media against Ulster. This applies to GAA as well.
Tyrone fans will tell you all about the anti-Ulster southern media, esp when you mention puke football to them.
Armagh fans to an extent as well.

But it does make sense to big up a southern country when playing a Northern county as you'll have more readers in the Southern County than the northern one. It makes sense.

I'm sure if Southern fans read the Irish News they would be equally annoyed at the Northern bias, Crossmaglen and Loughgiel where getting plenty written about them in the build up to the all Ireland club games, of a southern fan of one of the clubs they were playing read the Irish news they would have been thinking "We hardly get a mention here".

Its all about prespective, Papers flatter thier readerbase, the only problem is the southern media can have the effect of influncing pressure on the national team, that the northern media don't. if we could get some all Ireland papers the writters wouldn't focus on a select readership.

Kingshu wrote:Rodders, I don't think its anything to do with Coleraine, James Nesbitt is kinda from Coleraine and people love him.

People love Coleraine cheddar, and I love Coleraine Whiskey (like a cheap Jameson, ideal for hot whiskies and save the Jameson for on its own).

Coleraine is close to Portrush, and the seaside towns. I don't see why youd think people would hold being from Coleraine against him, it s a nice enough spot.
Now if he was from Ballybogey I could understand that as its a funny name, or anywhere is County Down, you could hold it against them.

I go to University of Ulster Coleraine and cannot stand the place. I have friends however who also go there and live in Portstewart and they love the place.

By the way I agree that Coleraine whiskey is good stuff particularly for mixing, only whiskey I drink straight is good single malt stuff.

Rodders, your comment about irish fans in regards to Trimble are pretty lame. You're starting to sound like another poster here that has a one eyed view of Munster. Your constant abuse of earls is becoming boring. It's not his fault that he gets picked in front of Trimble for teams or squads. You had a chip on your shoulder last week about Madigan when it was suggested he was better than Jackson. Your comment slating Fitzgerald today were over the top, saying he's finished is pathetic. Do you feel the same about ferris after all his injuries?

....and there goes another promising thread.

Gretgael1 wrote:Rodders, your comment about irish fans in regards to Trimble are pretty lame. You're starting to sound like another poster here that has a one eyed view of Munster. Your constant abuse of earls is becoming boring. It's not his fault that he gets picked in front of Trimble for teams or squads. You had a chip on your shoulder last week about Madigan when it was suggested he was better than Jackson. Your comment slating Fitzgerald today were over the top, saying he's finished is pathetic. Do you feel the same about ferris after all his injuries?

Yes I feel Ferris days are likely numbered, does that make you feel better?

Madigan is better than Jackson but I don't agree with the criticism aimed at Jackson. No other Irish flyhalf was ever at his level, or anywhere close, at a similar age that I can recall. By that reason I will say today that he will go on and break every record in Irish rugby and the southern fans and media still won't rate him.

And I hate to break it to people but Coleraine cheddar isn't made in Coleraine anymore....

funnyExiledScot wrote:....and there goes another promising thread.

Dan Parks is surely another misunderstood soul.

red_stag wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:....and there goes another promising thread.

Dan Parks is surely another misunderstood soul.

I'll take your Dan Parks and raise you Ian Humphreys.....

rodders wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote:Rodders, your comment about irish fans in regards to Trimble are pretty lame. You're starting to sound like another poster here that has a one eyed view of Munster. Your constant abuse of earls is becoming boring. It's not his fault that he gets picked in front of Trimble for teams or squads. You had a chip on your shoulder last week about Madigan when it was suggested he was better than Jackson. Your comment slating Fitzgerald today were over the top, saying he's finished is pathetic. Do you feel the same about ferris after all his injuries?

Yes I feel Ferris days are likely numbered, does that make you feel better?

Madigan is better than Jackson but I don't agree with the criticism aimed at Jackson. No other Irish flyhalf was ever at his level, or anywhere close, at a similar age that I can recall. By that reason I will say today that he will go on and break every record in Irish rugby and the southern fans and media still won't rate him.

And I hate to break it to people but Coleraine cheddar isn't made in Coleraine anymore....

No, it doesn't make me feel any better. I just wonder why you didn't attack him with the same vitriol as you did Fitzgerald?

I think both madigan and Jackson have huge potential and will be out first and second choice fly halves for years to come but this line that the southern fans won't rate him because he is from ulster is pathetic. I'm not so sure why you are so obessed about the southern media. Nearly every irish poster here criticises them and takes it all with a pinch of salt, even if you refuse to believe that.

Gretgael1 wrote:
No, it doesn't make me feel any better. I just wonder why you didn't attack him with the same vitriol as you did Fitzgerald?

What vitriol? I think Fitzgerald is not the the player he was, in what way is that an attack?

Has this thread become another Irish inter-provincial slagging match?

rodders wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote:Rodders, your comment about irish fans in regards to Trimble are pretty lame. You're starting to sound like another poster here that has a one eyed view of Munster. Your constant abuse of earls is becoming boring. It's not his fault that he gets picked in front of Trimble for teams or squads. You had a chip on your shoulder last week about Madigan when it was suggested he was better than Jackson. Your comment slating Fitzgerald today were over the top, saying he's finished is pathetic. Do you feel the same about ferris after all his injuries?

Yes I feel Ferris days are likely numbered, does that make you feel better?

Madigan is better than Jackson but I don't agree with the criticism aimed at Jackson. No other Irish flyhalf was ever at his level, or anywhere close, at a similar age that I can recall. By that reason I will say today that he will go on and break every record in Irish rugby and the southern fans and media still won't rate him.

And I hate to break it to people but Coleraine cheddar isn't made in Coleraine anymore....

I seem to remember saying lots of great things re Jackson on his debut. Actually he was quite impressive in all ways bar kicking IMO. Irish rugby fans can be quite fickle. All it will take is a big game from Jackson and he will be the second coming again. He has it in him too.

Same with Heaslip as captain. He had a great record as captain prior to 6N. Few losses and everone thinks he is a bad captain including some members of the Irish media. All it will take is a couple of good wins and he will be heroic again.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Has this thread become another Irish inter-provincial slagging match?

Someday you'll have 3 teams and you'll understand......

rodders wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Has this thread become another Irish inter-provincial slagging match?

Someday you'll have 3 teams and you'll understand......

Harsh on Connacht.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Has this thread become another Irish inter-provincial slagging match?

Someday you'll have 3 teams and you'll understand......

Harsh on Connacht.

...true but then they aren't the trouble makers...

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Has this thread become another Irish inter-provincial slagging match?

Someday you'll have 3 teams and you'll understand......

Harsh on Connacht.

...true but then they aren't the trouble makers...

Rodders you arent usually so blunt or reactionary. Did you get dumped or something? Bad day at work?

GunsGerms wrote:
Rodders you arent usually so blunt or reactionary. Did you get dumped or something? Bad day at work?

No you probably right, just a bit disillusioned with Irish rugby these says. Sorry Guns, nothing personal .

rodders wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote:
No, it doesn't make me feel any better. I just wonder why you didn't attack him with the same vitriol as you did Fitzgerald?

What vitriol? I think Fitzgerald is not the the player he was, in what way is that an attack?

Fitzgerald was on good form coming into the 6 nations, not playing like a player past it. I think you said he was terrible in the 6 nations, he didn't have that much game time to be terrible, so I don't know how you formed that opinion. And to write him off as finished is very premature. Leinster are not a charity and they wouldn't have offered him a 2 year contract if they didn't think he was capable of returning from injury at the required standard.

By the way, this isn't an inter provincial thing, not for me anyway. I support all of our provinces.

Gretgael1 wrote:
Fitzgerald was on good form coming into the 6 nations, not playing like a player past it. I think you said he was terrible in the 6 nations, he didn't have that much game time to be terrible, so I don't know how you formed that opinion. And to write him off as finished is very premature. Leinster are not a charity and they wouldn't have offered him a 2 year contract if they didn't think he was capable of returning from injury at the required standard.

I think if you look at Fitzgeralds injury record over the past 3 seasons there is a recurring theme. The IRFU noticed it too hence he didn't get a central contract. Leinster did give him a 2 year contract which is great for him but 2 years for a 25 year old isn't a huge vote of confidence.

He was in great form last year but to me he looks like the zip is gone from his legs and that is body isn't up to it anymore. Obviously I hope I'm wrong and that he can get back to his best.

iHumph is getting on fine at London Irish.

Not a world beater or international standard player, but controls a game well and adds a bit of flair while being a good kicker from hand.

His defence on the other hand.....

stnick88 wrote:iHumph is getting on fine at London Irish.

Not a world beater or international standard player, but controls a game well and adds a bit of flair while being a good kicker from hand.

His defence on the other hand.....

Still think he should have kept the beard.

Polarising opinions:

Parisse. Some think he's God, some think he has a higher opinion of himself than that.

Parra. Some hate him because he's a scrumhalf ( a natural reaction and forgivable), some hate him because they think he's small (always a suspicious thing to be on a rugby field) and others hate him because he's a bloody nuisance - always knocking a nail in our bloody coffin! Did I let my personal vendetta show???

Yeah, O'Gara...a man much more sinned against than sinning. I hear the Cypriots are blaming him now for not backing them at the crunch meeting in Brussels.

Ashton. Let nobody tell you it's his splash. That has nothing to do with it...it's his cheekie chappie Ibiza-nightclub-on-the-pizz face that does it. If he were a dark haired guy with a moody frown nobody would be on his case. But he just looks like the guy on the town with the loud mouth, singing a football song in the wrong key. Sorry, Chris..that's not me speaking. I don't mind you at all but I guarantee you that's what others are thinking

Em..who else? Oh that's more than enough.

Shane Jennings?

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Rodders you arent usually so blunt or reactionary. Did you get dumped or something? Bad day at work?

No you probably right, just a bit disillusioned with Irish rugby these says. Sorry Guns, nothing personal .

Ha dont worry bout me Im not easily offended and wasnt at all offended. Just noticed you dont seem to be yourself.

Keep the faith Irish rugby still has a lot going for it. I dont think the problems are as systemic as some commentators will have you believe. I believe that there is a review ongoing at the moment. So lets hope it results in a bit of a shake up.

Interesting that you didnt mention it but for whats its worth I actually do think current Irish managment sometimes do overlook Ulster players at times but I dont think anyone from ROI would begrudge a good player their place in the squad. No intellegent person would anyway, thats all that matters.

rodders wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote:
Fitzgerald was on good form coming into the 6 nations, not playing like a player past it. I think you said he was terrible in the 6 nations, he didn't have that much game time to be terrible, so I don't know how you formed that opinion. And to write him off as finished is very premature. Leinster are not a charity and they wouldn't have offered him a 2 year contract if they didn't think he was capable of returning from injury at the required standard.

I think if you look at Fitzgeralds injury record over the past 3 seasons there is a recurring theme. The IRFU noticed it too hence he didn't get a central contract. Leinster did give him a 2 year contract which is great for him but 2 years for a 25 year old isn't a huge vote of confidence.

He was in great form last year but to me he looks like the zip is gone from his legs and that is body isn't up to it anymore. Obviously I hope I'm wrong and that he can get back to his best.

Not a Fitz fan. He has lots of the attributes of a great player but they rarely all come together for Leinster or Ireland. Not ready for the scrap heap (London Irish) just yet but not far off it.

Fitz is the most pertinent moral for any of the up and coming players... including Zebo. You can't just be annointed as a chosen one and hope that fate takes you the rest of the way. Fitzgerald is the shining example that fate can play evil tricks.

Fitzgerald when he started out...it's hard now to actually realise how much hope was placed in him...and then the injuries started and then the panic to prove himself everytime he got a sliver of a chance to get back on board.

The one player in Ireland I always feel genuine sorrow for. He was better than his career has given him the luck to express.

AWJ for me.

I think he's generally dross and generally only puts in a performance once a year. I watch him sometimes and fail to see how he's an International rugby player.

Some think he should be Lions captain.

Alex Goode seems to be splitting opinions in England with most suggesting he's nowhere near the class of Brown or Foden, mainly due to lack of gas.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Rodders, I don't think its anything to do with Coleraine, James Nesbitt is kinda from Coleraine and people love him.

People love Coleraine cheddar, and I love Coleraine Whiskey (like a cheap Jameson, ideal for hot whiskies and save the Jameson for on its own).

Coleraine is close to Portrush, and the seaside towns. I don't see why youd think people would hold being from Coleraine against him, it s a nice enough spot.
Now if he was from Ballybogey I could understand that as its a funny name, or anywhere is County Down, you could hold it against them.

I go to University of Ulster Coleraine and cannot stand the place. I have friends however who also go there and live in Portstewart and they love the place.

By the way I agree that Coleraine whiskey is good stuff particularly for mixing, only whiskey I drink straight is good single malt stuff.

HOW DARE YOU! Disgraceful comments about my beloved home!

Don't make me bring up our Olympic medalists...

Sorry clive.

To be honest, its not Coleraine itself its my Uni, which leaves a lot to be desired on many levels compared to were I went at undergrad. Also the fact that I spend nearly 4 hours a day commuting to and from Coleraine from East Belfast 3 days a week. Which is enough to dispirit anyone.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:AWJ for me.

I think he's generally dross and generally only puts in a performance once a year. I watch him sometimes and fail to see how he's an International rugby player.

Some think he should be Lions captain.

Alex Goode seems to be splitting opinions in England with most suggesting he's nowhere near the class of Brown or Foden, mainly due to lack of gas.

Think everyone thinks Goode is bad.

Well I love it so much I live there and drive to Mallusk five days a week!

Yea, it could do with a few more options in the evenings I give you that. But not a bad place to be with good friends and family around you!

And yes... I know your all dying to ask. yes, if I saw Andrew Trimble and Richard Chambers in the street I would know them well enough to say hello....

sigh...


no, i won't be signing anything for you...

I really like Goode Guns, he needs gas outside him though. May/Wade on the wings may solve this.

I thought Alex Goode had a very poor 6N. His instinct was always to kick rather than counter attack. He's a tidy player with good all round skills but very little in the way of invention or attacking threat. So I suppose your right Pooly maybe he excels with flyers on his wings.

rodders wrote:Shane Jennings?

A rugby demigod. Should have found an English grandparent as heir apparent to Neil Back.
(only slightly tongue in cheek - I really liked him as a player)



Wasted on Leinster

Yea dodger I think he looks best with players running off him as he's very much a heads up type of player with a good offload.

Brown & Ashton are not really that type of player, Ashton is not any type of player lately.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I thought Alex Goode had a very poor 6N. His instinct was always to kick rather than counter attack. His a tidy player with good all round skills but very little in the way of invention or attacking threat. So I suppose your right Pooly maybe he excels with flyers on his wings.

If I were being cruel (and Beshocked will tell you I am always generous and never mean to Sarries players) I would say that Goode had two tactics on returning the high kick:

1) Jog towards the opposition before putting up a garryowen
2) Jog towards the opposition, sidestep 4 times and stumble into the nearest attacker.


Which is strange as his counterattacking for Sarries is excellent. I guess he is helped there by Brits and Joubert often hanging back and providing him with an option.

funnyExiledScot wrote:....and there goes another promising thread.

You'll need to start a specifid Irish and non-Irish thread next time

They sure can talk!

LondonTiger wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I thought Alex Goode had a very poor 6N. His instinct was always to kick rather than counter attack. His a tidy player with good all round skills but very little in the way of invention or attacking threat. So I suppose your right Pooly maybe he excels with flyers on his wings.

If I were being cruel (and Beshocked will tell you I am always generous and never mean to Sarries players) I would say that Goode had two tactics on returning the high kick:

1) Jog towards the opposition before putting up a garryowen
2) Jog towards the opposition, sidestep 4 times and stumble into the nearest attacker.

Which is strange as his counterattacking for Sarries is excellent. I guess he is helped there by Brits and Joubert often hanging back and providing him with an option.

Haha!

You're going to get yourself in to trouble LT.

I agree about the whole jog towards opposition and then trip over your own feet style of attack though, lots of other full backs seem to be doing that a lot recently too... Odd tactics....

LondonTiger wrote:

1) Jog towards the opposition before putting up a garryowen
2) Jog towards the opposition, sidestep 4 times and stumble into the nearest attacker.

Sounds like he's stolen Rob Kearney's latest tactics

Artful_Dodger wrote: Sorry clive.

To be honest, its not Coleraine itself its my Uni, which leaves a lot to be desired on many levels compared to were I went at undergrad. Also the fact that I spend nearly 4 hours a day commuting to and from Coleraine from East Belfast 3 days a week. Which is enough to dispirit anyone.

Don't humour him dodger it's shoite ....

Toby Flood.

Some think he's a good international player, others think he's an average club player.

I'd go a bit further and say I barely think he'd stand out in a Saturday afternoon local league match, and how he stumbled (or perhaps crabbed) to 50 caps I'll never know.

Croft- It's all well and good being a quick flanker capable of scoring from far out. But if you're not carrying and competing at the breakdown then you're not doing your job right

Dylan hartley- What does he do?

Chris Ashton- Even on form was pretty average, failed to be a consistent threat against top teams, instead relying on weaker WC pool sides and Italy to pick up tries.

Keith Earls- Just... No.

Croft is surprisingly excellent at the breakdown.

I'm with you on Hartley

James Simpson-Daniel - to some the greatest creative English talent of a generation to others a poor defender.

Andrew Sheridan - destructive scrummager and ball carrier / no technique, easily bettered.

Stephen Donald - a player to make the world stand up and take notice / an overweight, useless FH

HKC i don't think anybody has ever thought anything good about Stephen Donald. Even his parents probably disagree with him being selected by teams

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Croft is surprisingly excellent at the breakdown.

I'm with you on Hartley

Why doesn't he enter some then?