What did they do before rugby went professional, outside of Rugby...???

I was just chatting with a friend and discussing former amateur players careers prior to professionalism. I know there are only a few of you who remember rugby back then but if you have any information. I think it would be interesting to know.

Jeremy Guscott - Amateur then pro now works for the BBC

Brian Moore - Amateur then pro now works for the BBC and The Telegraph

Stuart Barnes - Amateur never pro now works for Sky Sports and The Times

Robert Jones - Amateur then pro now works for the BBC

Jonathan Davies - Amateur then pro now works for the BBC, what did he do before he went to league

Keith Wood - Amateur then pro now works for the BBC

Will Greenwood - Amateur then pro now works for Sky Sports and The Telegraph

Jason Leonard - Amateur then pro I think he was a chippy, is he still a chippy

Martin Johnson - Amateur then pro no idea what he does now

Kenny Logan - Amateur then pro, his wife works for the BBC, Kenny does a lot of charity work, does he have a real job, what was his previous profession.

Sean Fitzpatrick - Amateur then pro now works for Sky Sports and some newspapers. What did he do before

Michael Lynagh - Amateur then pro now works for Sky Sports


Any ideas please post...!

Gareth Thomas was a postman and used to earn £50 a match playing for Bridgend on a Saturday.

mikey_philVIII wrote:Gareth Thomas was a postman and used to earn £50 a match playing for Bridgend on a Saturday.

And now he's richer than all of them along with Gavin Henson!

There must be something in the water near junctions 35 and 36 of the M4!

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:Gareth Thomas was a postman and used to earn £50 a match playing for Bridgend on a Saturday.

And now he's richer than all of them along with Gavin Henson!

There must be something in the water near junctions 35 and 36 of the M4!

Thats right I remember him saying so on that documentary released about him last year.



Brian Moore was a solicitor. Makes a lot of sense what with his Pitbull-ish character.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Guscott used to work for British Gas but can't remember exactly what he did.

+1 on Brian Moore being a Solicitor

Brian Moore as said had a lwa degree and worked as a solicitor. That career ended when he punched a drunk who was abusing him. He owned a nail bar for a while.

Martin Johnson was a bank clerk, currently earns a living from after dinner speaking etc.

Will Greenwood was a student at Durham. On graduation got a job in the city and joined Quins, moving to Tigers when game went prfessional (was only about 24 then)

Jason Leonard - either a chippy or a brickie when at Sarries. Got a city "job" on joining Quins. Now a company director of a construction business and about to be elected to board of RFU.

LondonTiger wrote:Brian Moore as said had a lwa degree and worked as a solicitor. That career ended when he punched a drunk who was abusing him. He owned a nail bar for a while.

Martin Johnson was a bank clerk, currently earns a living from after dinner speaking etc.

Will Greenwood was a student at Durham. On graduation got a job in the city and joined Quins, moving to Tigers when game went prfessional (was only about 24 then)

Jason Leonard - either a chippy or a brickie when at Sarries. Got a city "job" on joining Quins. Now a company director of a construction business and about to be elected to board of RFU.

Did Will Carling also get a job in the city at Quins?

I think Winterbottom was in banking, god knows what that prat Mick "The self titled munch" Skinner did. Bin man? Though he also probably worked in the city....!

I think I heard somewhere that Guscott was a bricklayer of all things, think Sheridan was as well. Johnson worked in a bank, Deano was in the police (turned up against my old club with Leicestershire Constabulary. The Underwood twins were in the RAF. Struggling to think of others of the top of my head.

From memory Micky Skinner did something in insurance. Saw a lot of him around Blackheath Rugby Club when I was down there - a really good bloke to have a pint with.

Annie Underwood had a lot of kids, Rory, Gary, Tony, Wendy and another daughter I cannot remember name of, but no twins. Rory joined RAF from school, while Tony went to university doing something financial I think. He did become a pilot eventually - but never in the RAF.

Dooley & Ackford were both Policemen as well, and Mike Teague (unsurprisingly) was a builder.

Big wrote:I think I heard somewhere that Guscott was a bricklayer of all things, think Sheridan was as well. Johnson worked in a bank, Deano was in the police (turned up against my old club with Leicestershire Constabulary. The Underwood twins were in the RAF. Struggling to think of others of the top of my head.

Phill Davies, now the Cardiff Blues coach was also a member of the Constabulary.

Guscott's mum taught my ex girlfriend art in Bristol.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Guscott's mum taught my ex girlfriend art in Bristol.

Well he was always said to have been a creative outside centre. It must have been in his genes.

Apparently Mrs Guscott was lovely.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Apparently Mrs Guscott was lovely.

Most Art Teachers are. Mine was wonderful, a local landscape water-colourist who was madly passionate about Impressionism. He also appreciated modern art and gave us a good grounding interest in Cubism, Modernism the Dadaists, Surrealists and Abstract Expressionists.

I wonder how Guscott's career only allowed a creative expression on the pitch and not in his other career choices of either Bricklaying or working for the Gas Board...?

Michael Lynagh and David Campese were professionals before there was professionals, they went to Italy in the Southern Hemisphere off season and became millionaires because of it.

The Benetton Treviso and Amatori Milano scandalous behaviour in the amateur era. Though it appears according to LT above that if you went to Quins you got a job in the city, whether you had a degree in economics from Durham, or Woodwork from Dagenham.

Tony Underwood wasn't in the RAF Rory was and for an officer and a well known 'star' wasn't that bad.

Mike Teague was a labourer/brickie etc and had to lose pay to tour with the Lions.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Tony Underwood wasn't in the RAF Rory was and for an officer and a well known 'star' wasn't that bad.

Mike Teague was a labourer/brickie etc and had to lose pay to tour with the Lions.

The losing pay was the curse of many a great player. Local hero Dai Morris couldn't take leave for the tour from his teaching job.

maestegmafia wrote:Though it appears according to LT above that if you went to Quins you got a job in the city, whether you had a degree in economics from Durham, or Woodwork from Dagenham.

For the last 10 years or so of shamateurism Quins were the best at finding employment for thir players. Of course in the 70s it was a wholly different SW Londonon club.

London Welsh stars of the 70s were mainly all Teachers, John Dawes (Chemistry in Epsom somewhere), Mervyn Davies (PE at Emmanuel School, Battersea), Gerald Davies (Christs Hospital, Horsham) John Taylor too, JPR was studying medicine at St Mary's.

I seem to remember Terry Holmes, in an international programme pen picture, being described as a "scrap metal executive". Made me laugh at the time - and still does.

Wade Dooley was a bobby.
Jason Leonard was a builder's mate. Would do a shift, then run to training and run home afterwards.
E London / Essex was a rugby desert at top level, so the boy did well. Played for Barking, then across London to Quins
Although many years apart in age, we attended the same (non rugby) junior school in Chadwell Heath.

gregortree wrote:Jason Leonard was a builder's mate. Would do a shift, then run to training and run home afterwards.
E London / Essex was a rugby desert at top level, so the boy did well. Played for Barking, then across London to Quins
Although many years apart in age, we attended the same (non rugby) junior school in Chadwell Heath.

He spent a few years at Saracens before joining Quins.

LondonTiger wrote:From memory Micky Skinner did something in insurance. Saw a lot of him around Blackheath Rugby Club when I was down there - a really good bloke to have a pint with.

Annie Underwood had a lot of kids, Rory, Gary, Tony, Wendy and another daughter I cannot remember name of, but no twins. Rory joined RAF from school, while Tony went to university doing something financial I think. He did become a pilot eventually - but never in the RAF.

Doh! Being really daft - I meant the brothers of course. I thought both were RAF - I assume I heard Tony was a pilot and just made the assumption he was RAF as Rory was.

What about the Hastings brothers...! Whats their story?

Well, it wasn't his IQ that got Gavin to Cambridge.

maestegmafia wrote:The Benetton Treviso and Amatori Milano scandalous behaviour in the amateur era. Though it appears according to LT above that if you went to Quins you got a job in the city, whether you had a degree in economics from Durham, or Woodwork from Dagenham.

True! But they raised the profile of rugby in Italy, which had a knock on effect and improved their players no end.
I'd say their involvement helped boost Italian rugby to the standard it is today.

Shifty wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The Benetton Treviso and Amatori Milano scandalous behaviour in the amateur era. Though it appears according to LT above that if you went to Quins you got a job in the city, whether you had a degree in economics from Durham, or Woodwork from Dagenham.

True! But they raised the profile of rugby in Italy, which had a knock on effect and improved their players no end.
I'd say their involvement helped boost Italian rugby to the standard it is today.

A dear friend of ours played openside with Gary Whetton, John Kirwin and Michael Lynagh at Benetton Treviso and he absolutely adored lynagh. Said he was a fantastic bloke and a superb player. He wasn't so impressed with Whetton, says he left his talent back in NZ. All thre married local girls while in italy. It wasn't just the money they took.

maestegmafia wrote:A dear friend of ours played openside with Gary Whetton, John Kirwin and Michael Lynagh at Benetton Treviso and he absolutely adored lynagh. Said he was a fantastic bloke and a superb player. He wasn't so impressed with Whetton, says he left his talent back in NZ. All thre married local girls while in italy. It wasn't just the money they took.

I've seen the Italian ladies, I'd of married one myself if I was good enough to play out there back in the day!

LondonTiger wrote:Well, it wasn't his IQ that got Gavin to Cambridge.

Hey thats not very nice LT. The man was a lovely bloke, a great captain and an inspiring player. Leave it at that.

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Well, it wasn't his IQ that got Gavin to Cambridge.

Hey thats not very nice LT. The man was a lovely bloke, a great captain and an inspiring player. Leave it at that.

Yes he was and is those things, but he has never been the sharpest pencil in the drawer. His ability on the rugby pitch opened up opportunities that would not otherwise have been available. Happened throughout the later amateur days. As I said Winterbottom (a farmer) and Leonard (a chippy) are not the most common recruits to high finance.

LondonTiger wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Well, it wasn't his IQ that got Gavin to Cambridge.

Hey thats not very nice LT. The man was a lovely bloke, a great captain and an inspiring player. Leave it at that.

Yes he was and is those things, but he has never been the sharpest pencil in the drawer. His ability on the rugby pitch opened up opportunities that would not otherwise have been available. Happened throughout the later amateur days. As I said Winterbottom (a farmer) and Leonard (a chippy) are not the most common recruits to high finance.

This is a thread asking what they do now or did before. I don't see why you would want to poke fun at Gavin Hastings

If you have no comment on his current or previous occupation, don't post.

Tony Underwood is an airline pilot. I can't remember if he started with easyJet and moved on to Virgin or the other way round.

I was of the understanding that Gavin Hastins was a librairian, or he worked in a book shop. Not sure what Scot Hastins did.

Jason Leonard was carpenter, Martin Johnson worked in a bank. Dorian West was a armed Responce police officer. Dean Richards was a police man.

Brian More was a soliciter. Rory underwood was a RAF pilot.

Gary Armstrong was a lorry driver IIRC

maestegmafia wrote:
This is a thread asking what they do now or did before. I don't see why you would want to poke fun at Gavin Hastings

If you have no comment on his current or previous occupation, don't post.

Yet it is perfectly ok for you to poke fun at Winterbottom, Leonard and Quins?




Rob Andrew was a rather vain Chartered Surveyor (land surveys I think) prior to his current political career.
Jeff Probyn worked in the family furniture making business.
Colin Smart (of the aftershave business) was a solicitor, as I think was Paul rendall.

As already mentioned a lot of policemen - and we can add Ackford and Bayfield to that list.

Will Carling was originally in the army but then founded his own motivational speaking company. Tim Rodber was another army person.
Continuing that theme Rob Wainright was an Army doctor.

Jonathan Webb was another who was a doctor.

Former england captain John Orwin was an RAF corporal

Most of the 70's welsh players occupations were quite defined by class

Middle Class - Doctors and Teachers
Working Class - Sales Reps - (Jobs for the boys of course or should that be the boyos)

Interestingly; Richard Parks formerly of Wales is training to be a Forensic Psychologist - what a strange choice of profession?

London Tiger, thanks for clarifying re: Leonard time at Sarries.

Another notable one from the the W Country was Phil Blakeway.
Propped for Glaws & England early 80s' when he was not working in the family's fruit & veg business.

More interesting are thos people who a now professional who are also doing something non-rugby related.

We all know about Jamie Roberts and his medical degree whilst there are a lot of part time farmers in the game. Paul Sackey used to operate some kind of luxury car business I think.

Very few players can go into a rugby related career post playing, even fewer will have made enough money to be set for life - but how many are actually planning for retirement?

gregortree wrote:London Tiger, thanks for clarifying re: Leonard time at Sarries.

Another notable one from the the W Country was Phil Blakeway.
Propped for Glaws & England early 80s' when he was not working in the family's fruit & veg business.

Talking about former Gloucester props, Phil Vickery dabbles in a a bit of TV cookery to prepare for when he retires from the game.

LondonTiger wrote:

gregortree wrote:London Tiger, thanks for clarifying re: Leonard time at Sarries.

Another notable one from the the W Country was Phil Blakeway.
Propped for Glaws & England early 80s' when he was not working in the family's fruit & veg business.

Talking about former Gloucester props, Phil Vickery dabbles in a a bit of TV cookery to prepare for when he retires from the game.

Rumour has it he and Shane are to star in Children's cooking show Big Cook Little Cook when they decide to hang up their boots.

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Well, it wasn't his IQ that got Gavin to Cambridge.

Hey thats not very nice LT. The man was a lovely bloke, a great captain and an inspiring player. Leave it at that.

Yes he was and is those things, but he has never been the sharpest pencil in the drawer. His ability on the rugby pitch opened up opportunities that would not otherwise have been available. Happened throughout the later amateur days. As I said Winterbottom (a farmer) and Leonard (a chippy) are not the most common recruits to high finance.

This is a thread asking what they do now or did before. I don't see why you would want to poke fun at Gavin Hastings

If you have no comment on his current or previous occupation, don't post.

Particularly as Hastings now effectively cares for his wife Diane full time - she was diagnosed with Parkinsons at 39.

That's quite a heavy response, Tiger, and apologies for that but when you make personal attacks on people this is always the danger.

Ian Watkins (welsh hooker for those who not know) ran his own sports shop in Ebbw for long time.

Also Uncle Clive Burgess was in Merchant Navy before returining home and playing for Ebbw work down steelworks and within RTBs

George Carlin wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Well, it wasn't his IQ that got Gavin to Cambridge.

Hey thats not very nice LT. The man was a lovely bloke, a great captain and an inspiring player. Leave it at that.

Yes he was and is those things, but he has never been the sharpest pencil in the drawer. His ability on the rugby pitch opened up opportunities that would not otherwise have been available. Happened throughout the later amateur days. As I said Winterbottom (a farmer) and Leonard (a chippy) are not the most common recruits to high finance.

This is a thread asking what they do now or did before. I don't see why you would want to poke fun at Gavin Hastings

If you have no comment on his current or previous occupation, don't post.

Particularly as Hastings now effectively cares for his wife Diane full time - she was diagnosed with Parkinsons at 39.

That's quite a heavy response, Tiger, and apologies for that but when you make personal attacks on people this is always the danger.

I am my wife's Carer too. My wife has a physically degenerative disease. I sympathise heavily with Hastings it is a difficult life though has its huge rewards too. Thanks for the post. I have now googled him via Parkinson's and found out all about him. Quite inspiring outside of rugby too by the looks of it.

Regarding Hastings career he worked as a Chartered Surveyor CB Richard Ellis in London and Glasgow while a rugby player. After retirement from the game he started a sports marketing company which he sold 10 years later.

Now he does a great deal of work with leadership skills work encompassing everything from business leadership skills to experiences for disadvantaged children mainly done out doors in the wild. One of those see if the city folk can climb a mountain and sleep in a tent jobs.

Lots of respect and best wishes, Maes.

LondonTiger wrote:

Talking about former Gloucester props, Phil Vickery dabbles in a a bit of TV cookery to prepare for when he retires from the game.

Is that not a different man of the same name?
rugby player

Phil vickery the chef

George Carlin wrote:Lots of respect and best wishes, Maes.

No thank you George...!

Got a really interesting read from researching that. I always wondered what had happened to him. I know he gets occasional appearance pitch side, I always thought he would be doing what Andy Nicol tries so hard to do for the BBC.

But it appears Hastings is a very busy man, that gentle Giant who's hard as nails is very much the adequate description. Quite an inspiration. Right. I'm off to go walk up a hill in the rain now.

Clear the cobwebs.