France came bottom and have two sides in the H-cup semi.

WTF?

t1000advancedprototype wrote:WTF?

So what? Wales won the 6N and had no sides in the QF! Must be a correlation!

whocares wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:WTF?

So what? Wales won the 6N and had no sides in the QF! Must be a correlation!

That's my point exactly.

My observation since the game went pro is that the Welsh players play for the Welsh jersey and have a much lower passion and desire at club level.

Most welsh internationals play what? 10 games for one of their regions a year? And that's if they are not injured. No wonder if they dont have much passion at club level if they hardly know all of their teammates.

Do you know how many games a super XV side plays in a season?

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

whocares wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:WTF?

So what? Wales won the 6N and had no sides in the QF! Must be a correlation!

That's my point exactly.

My observation since the game went pro is that the Welsh players play for the Welsh jersey and have a much lower passion and desire at club level.

Or the French play for their club jersey and have a much lower passion and desire at International? You might add the Irish to that one too?

Which is performing best though given that they're all perhaps prioritising different competitions? That's the question that might always be up in the air.

Coaching plays the biggest difference in these scenarios IMO.

Many people on here seem to think the coach is there to just watch the games and make a few selections, without actually coaching anyone. However quite a few teams this year have proved to me just how important it is to have a good effective coach who knows how to utilise his team properly.

It has all to do with the balance of the universe.

Look at it from the perspective of matter vs antimatter.

Rugby is the same, big bang and then balance.

A strong reason french teams do so well in HC is the obvious one - no salary cap means drawing the best players in the world to their league, meaning fewer french players are getting the chance to shine...

littlejohn wrote:A strong reason french teams do so well in HC is the obvious one - no salary cap means drawing the best players in the world to their league, meaning fewer french players are getting the chance to shine...

it is either what you said, or my theory, anyway it makes a lot of sense what you suggest.

littlejohn wrote:A strong reason french teams do so well in HC is the obvious one - no salary cap means drawing the best players in the world to their league, meaning fewer french players are getting the chance to shine...

That's kinda of a partial reason for a percentage of it. But I personally don't buy this idea that it's the main thing in a Nation that has 14 top clubs to choose from to make up an International squad, as distinct from Wales with only four. There's more to it than that...

Plus. France don't do so badly in 6N usually! It's a blip. I'd be very surprised if they stay in the bottom half of the 6N next year.

littlejohn wrote:A strong reason french teams do so well in HC is the obvious one - no salary cap means drawing the best players in the world to their league, meaning fewer french players are getting the chance to shine...

Exactly,

The starting xv for french sides in the quarter finals of the heineken included the following number of foreigners:

Toulon: 11
Clermont: 8
Montpellier: 7

So there were only 19 players out of 45 starting french qualified or 42%.

You could say that Clermont are as french as toulon are english.

How many frenchman played in the Toulon side yesterday...2-3????

Says it all really.

fa0019 wrote:How many frenchman played in the Toulon side yesterday...2-3????

Says it all really.

3 starters- says what exactly?

there is 26 pro clubs if you include the pro-d2. that's a lot of teams to fill and even if 50% of the players (in average) are foreigner, that's still a lot of frenchmen to pick from (not entirely true for certain positions though).
French clubs dont even get any incentive from the FFR to have french international so hiring a few experienced foreigners seem to be a good deal as they are available all the time and probably not more expensive. its not all the club fault. the lazy and incompetent FFR should be blamed first for the bad results of our national team.

you can only realisticly compare French teams with the english ones (similar in terms of numbers). comparing clubs to regions is not relevant at all as SF pointed out already.

whocares wrote:

fa0019 wrote:How many frenchman played in the Toulon side yesterday...2-3????

Says it all really.

3 starters- says what exactly?

there is 26 pro clubs if you include the pro-d2. that's a lot of teams to fill and even if 50% of the players (in average) are foreigner, that's still a lot of frenchmen to pick from (not entirely true for certain positions though).
French clubs dont even get any incentive from the FFR to have french international so hiring a few experienced foreigners seem to be a good deal as they are available all the time and probably not more expensive. its not all the club fault. the lazy and incompetent FFR should be blamed first for the bad results of our national team.

you can only realisticly compare French teams with the english ones (similar in terms of numbers). comparing clubs to regions is not relevant at all as SF pointed out already.

Disagree whocares.

You are talking HC here, the best clubs in Europe, that is where the French must get experience, if they have so many foreigners in their top teams it isn't good for French rugby, b\aside from the fact that the poor fans are really supporting a club in name only.

If the bulk of your players available are playing for middle/bottom teams then they will not be getting top Heineken Cup experience and therefore pit themselves against the best in Europe week in week out.

If the top 4-5 sides are dominated by foreigners then you're just doing other countries a favour.

Most players (bar the odd 1 or 2) are not superstars... they weren't born. They were created and moulded over a number of years.
However good players are... if they're playing sub-standard opposition for most of their careers they won't be hitting the heights of their potential.

Look at Frans Steyn for instance. He went to RC and put on like 10kg in weight and was severely out of shape by the time he came back to SA 2 years later... why? Because the Top14 league is less intense as SR and less involved in running rugby. Steyn is a naturally lazy player also and he lent on his talent to get him over the line most of the time rather than acting like a professional should.

He did only what he needed to do to compete/win. If the bar is only so high you naturally train yourself to jump that height and that height only... thats a basic human instinct.

Biltong wrote:

You are talking HC here, the best clubs in Europe, that is where the French must get experience, if they have so many foreigners in their top teams it isn't good for French rugby, b\aside from the fact that the poor fans are really supporting a club in name only.

The whole point of this thread though - is that Wales players, on the whole, don't get that experience...and still perform at a high level at International....with largely only 4 sides to pick from. No, France have more than enough sides to choose a squad from that could make an impression. AND it will. writing off France after one useless 6N is reading far too much into a small time frame.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

You are talking HC here, the best clubs in Europe, that is where the French must get experience, if they have so many foreigners in their top teams it isn't good for French rugby, b\aside from the fact that the poor fans are really supporting a club in name only.

The whole point of this thread though - is that Wales players, on the whole, don't get that experience...and still perform at a high level at International....with largely only 4 sides to pick from. No, France have more than enough sides to choose a squad from that could make an impression. AND it will. Righting off France after one useless 6N is reading far too much into a small time frame.

Fly, at the end of the day the Welsh Regions and WRU are not as polarised as the French are. I am talking from an outside view and only my perception, but the French clubs don't really give two hoots about the French Rugby Union.

So the collective in Wales brings together a matchday 22 that are focused and prepared, you might even say pride in the Welsh jersey is another factor.

Biltong, I havent heard any Toulon fan complaining (I am not one of them by the way, just playing a bit of devil's advocate) by the fact they dont have 10 french players starting.
I sort of agree that the HC experience is valuable for any players but again I could say that a majority of our internationals are involved at least at group stage through our 6-7 teams playing. if a middle/bottom top 14 club player is good enough to play for france , he will end up playing for those teams at some point. this is the point of the summer tours where we usually test a fair amount of young prospects (like in argentina last year and probably NZ this year).

FA0019, I dont agree when you say that T14 is less intense than SR. clearly not often running rugby is displayed but the intensity is different here, more involved around physicality and forwards. It is very competitive as well because of all teams are either fighting (most of the time) for a play off position or to avoid relegation. calling that a sub standart league is quite insulting and I wonder where do you put the other european local leagues! Only real sub standart opposition in the T14 is really Mont de Marsan. Middle table teams like Stade Francais, Perpignan and Biarritz had no real issues to reach the amlin cup final rounds.
Players tend to bulk up a bit (muscle not fat!) when they come here hence resulting in a slower sort of game. François Steyn is not a good example , he was probably out of shape when he came back to SA but wasnt his form also affected by his recent honey moon?

Biltong wrote:
Fly, at the end of the day the Welsh Regions and WRU are not as polarised as the French are. I am talking from an outside view and only my perception, but the French clubs don't really give two hoots about the French Rugby Union.So the collective in Wales brings together a matchday 22 that are focused and prepared, you might even say pride in the Welsh jersey is another factor.

French rugby union also dont give a flying f**k about the pro clubs. I agree the consequence is that Wales (and probably any other of the 6N) are way better focused and prepared than France. Not sure about pride though. think this is equally shared by all the nations.

littlejohn wrote:A strong reason french teams do so well in HC is the obvious one - no salary cap means drawing the best players in the world to their league, meaning fewer french players are getting the chance to shine...

Exactly. Toulon had one French player according to the commentary team. Personally I don't get it but then I don't follow football and that club over country mentality is very much a football thing

French clubs have lots of superstar players

Welsh Regions don't.

maestegmafia wrote:French clubs have lots of superstar players

Welsh Regions don't.

??? They Welsh regions might not have Agentine, New Zealand, Aussie, Samoan, Fijian, South African etc etc superstars .... but they have a few Welsh ones. Let's not downgrade the Welsh superstars to make an argument work, maesteg

dragonbreath wrote:

littlejohn wrote:A strong reason french teams do so well in HC is the obvious one - no salary cap means drawing the best players in the world to their league, meaning fewer french players are getting the chance to shine...

Exactly. Toulon had one French player according to the commentary team. Personally I don't get it but then I don't follow football and that club over country mentality is very much a football thing

what has football to do with it? Club and country are 2 different things. there is no hierarchy here.

Brian Moore has already picked up on this glaring contradiction:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9977648/Brian-Moore-Clermont-Auvergnes-quality-shows-up-Frances-Six-Nations-failure.html

It's already been pointed out on another thread that the relationship between the French clubs and the FFR is terrible and the clubs feel under absolutely no obligation to assist the national side in developing players.

France's biggest problem in the 6N? Urine poor fly half performances.

The 10s in France's biggest clubs? All NFQs - Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon), Luke MacAllister (Toulouse), Brock James (Clermont), Daniel Kirkpatrick (Castres), James Hook (Perpignan). For next season, you can add Morne Steyn (Stade Francais) and of course Jonny Sexton (Racing Metro). Fine to have star imports - you sell a merdeload of shirts and leisurewear. The problem is when the internationals roll around and you're playing Fearless Freddie at 10.

yes that's right GC. I can find confort in the fact that ASM didnt need to have a world class 10 this weekend to win (was probably his 2nd game as flyhalf while before he was just another SH bench warmer).
Also Kirkpatrick is not really 1st choice at 10 for Castres (but he has been injured for a while though)

Careful. The OP also started a thread saying the flyhalf as pivot was a myth. Any excuse to turn the conversation to Wales. Only kidding T1000. Nothing wrong with being proud of your team...

France has been too conservative in its gameplan for quite some time. Their coaches have believed that they have a monster pack and a monster defence. Occasionally this way of playing has beared fruit but too often it is predictable and lacking in inspiration. When I think of what this team is capable of and then see the performances they turned in during the 6N, it frustrates the hell out of me. How the French fans feel is, I imagine, infinitely worse.

whocares wrote:

what has football to do with it? Club and country are 2 different things. there is no hierarchy here.

This is perhaps a key difference. As far as I'm aware, in SA (at least in my neck of the woods), all rugby fans are primarily Bok fans and only then club fans. I imagine most SA rugby fans assume that all SA rugby efforts ultimately should aim at strengthening the Boks...

The reason the French clubs are there are because they have a squad of OS players that's including alot of welsh players. The reasons the welsh teams ain't IMO are because they can't afford keep their own players and because the English Irish and French clubs have such big budgets that they can afford a team of OS players where the welsh are struggling to keep their own never mind any other players

The club owners will continue throwing money at their problems. Top tier French clubs will continue poaching players from abroad and further limit academy progress and overall representation and gametime of French players. The national squad will suffer further as a result. Eventually the FFR will wise up and I expect certain measures will be taken against the bloated foreign contingent obstructing native talent in France. Everybody happy!

At least that's the way I hope it will pan out. Clubs like Toulon, Racing and Agen are becoming increasingly difficult not to mistake for refugee camps as it stands.

Take Toulons starting team

5 english
1 Australian
2 new Zealanders
1 SA

Their just players off top my head its shocking

Toulon had Sheridan starting and his replacement was Jenkins, thats two non French players both fighting for one spot, this cannot be good, what I think more than anything though is the fact that there are too many NFQ players in vital positions and it is going to get worst for them, it's no good having players like Medard and Basteroud when you have flakey no 10's and no 9's because the best players in France are not French.

Well it is only going get worse habbana next season who ever else

How many non French players do we know are going to France next year:-

Roberts
Sexton
Lydiate ?

Anyone else ?

Yeah we got no decent scrum half in France allright, bayonne even had to resort to hire mike philips. That's how low we got
Remind me where the ospreys 9 is coming from?

LordDowlais wrote:How many non French players do we know are going to France next year:-

Roberts
Sexton
Lydiate ?

Anyone else ?

Gray going to Castres
Ranger to montpelier
A few other I guess and a few are leaving as well

It don't matter where the scrum half is coming from because each welsh region can field a team full welsh players and will be close to a full strength side. Its so easy to earn a quick buck out there even Brew is playing out there

LordDowlais wrote:How many non French players do we know are going to France next year:-

Roberts
Sexton
Lydiate ?

Anyone else ?

Morne Stayne (south africa)
Bryan Habana (south africa)
Classens (south africa)
Jon Smit (south africa)
Tongauhia (tonga)
Mujati(south africa)
Rene Ranger (new zealand)
Jim Hamilton (scotland)
Timani (australia)
Stephen Brett (new zealand)
Dannie Rossouw (south africa)
Castrogiovani (italy)
Ritchie Gray (castres)
Juandre Kruger (south africa)

So there's sixteen additional foreigners and there must be more. It's also only April!

How many leaving?

So the clubs im France will get stronger because of OS players and France as a nation is only going get weaker because of this. The only way France cam stop this and their down fall is to iver stop all this OS players or their players leaving the money of France remove the splinters they got in their back sides from sitting on their back sides and work harder to get in the side or leave for other countries which isn't great but or well

Revised HC negotiating terms:

French sides must accept a pay-cap on their HC squads. The budget for players they choose to use in HC should be capped to an equal level with top AP and Pro12 sides.

Compromise?????? Or is it just Pro12 who have to compromise?

I'd say St. Andre had something to do with it.

The French players are flogged harder in the Top14. But they have the depth to cope with that and have won multiple 6 Nations titles with the same setup.

But when among other things, your gameplan is so conservative and contrary to the nations rugby tradition, your best centre is on the wing, your best kicker isn't kicking, and your best 10 isn't playing; you're making things more difficult than they already are.

St. Andre is a clown in my opinion.

Scrumdown wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:How many non French players do we know are going to France next year:-

Roberts
Sexton
Lydiate ?

Anyone else ?

Morne Stayne (south africa)
Bryan Habana (south africa)
Classens (south africa)
Jon Smit (south africa)
Tongauhia (tonga)
Mujati(south africa)
Rene Ranger (new zealand)
Jim Hamilton (scotland)
Timani (australia)
Stephen Brett (new zealand)
Dannie Rossouw (south africa)
Castrogiovani (italy)
Ritchie Gray (castres)
Juandre Kruger (south africa)

So there's sixteen additional foreigners and there must be more. It's also only April!

You can probably add John Barclay to that list.

Which club is Barclay linked to? tks

The fact that France had a poor 6N and has several very strong clubs in Europe doesn't have any correlation with the opposite situation in Wales.

Having watched all the recent French games they do look a shambles. Not getting players released early enough and having to play club rugby during the competition can't help, but I'm also sure that PSA has made huge mistakes in selection and game managment. I think the talent pool in France is still big enough and I wouldn't say the national team is in decline because of one bad tournament. However, watching Toulon is a bit like watching a barbarian side. It's not exactly French is it?

whocares wrote:Which club is Barclay linked to? tks

Depending on who you listen to, either Toulon or Lyon.

I think Hamilton (Glos/Scotland) is going to France too ?

If the French were suffering from a lack of quality players I struggle to see how it is they played such good rugby in the Autumn. As I see it the problem is consistency not ability, and that leaves me inclined to agree with the problem with motivation/coaching for the national team camp rather than the too many foreigners in their league camp.

The image so many of you have of French rugby and the reality of is it astounding. Take the time to actually have a look at the French clubs squads in their first and second divisions.

Expect half the squad to be French, though most of the non French players will either be players from Tier 2 European countries, Georgia, Romania, Germany, Norway, Lithuania and Spain. With a smattering of African players from countries like Cameroon, Morocco, Ivory Coast, and Zimbabwe.
Can somebody please name me any world stars from those countries?

There are quite a lot of Argentinians there and Islanders, but in truth I doubt if anyone can name many of them.

You do get the odd British star in there, mainly a Welsh player.

Mostly though you'd expect a very old Tri Nation players, who's a bit passed it. Or a players who got a few caps for a these countries but didn't quite hold down a place long term and decided to take the money while he could.

I really don't see the French league as being the best in the World, it's very cosmopolitan, but you probably have far more internationals from Tier 1 countries in the Rabo Direct.

They have 4-5 really big clubs like Toulouse, Toulon, and Clermont etc, but only because they have big benefactors behind them. While these benefactors don't seem to stick around very long.

SecretFly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:French clubs have lots of superstar players

Welsh Regions don't.

??? They Welsh regions might not have Agentine, New Zealand, Aussie, Samoan, Fijian, South African etc etc superstars .... but they have a few Welsh ones. Let's not downgrade the Welsh superstars to make an argument work, maesteg

We have a few, but there are many abroad now and more joining them.