Ladrokes suspend bets on Warbuton to captain the Lions

First topic message reminder :

Following a flood of money in the last 48 hours Ladrokes have suspended taking any more bets on Warburton captaining the Lions in the 1st test match http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/rugby-warburton-well-backed-captain-lions-110120373.html . It's amazing how fortunes change, from being a hero going into the World Cup semi final, a 'villain' (unfairly so) after the World Cup semi final, to a zero (unfairly so) after the Ireland game, to a hero after the Scotland and England matches.

On the basis that bookmakers seldom get it wrong, does this mean that Warburton will be at 6 - surely he can't be picked at 7 ahead of Tipuric? This will 'free up' the likes of Robshaw and Wood for the Argentina tour.

Oh, I really hope that is not true

I've watched Lions tours since about 1955. In that time many different players have captained the Lions in provincial games as well as test matches but the nationality of the selected tour captains breaks down as follows :
Irish 7
Scots 4
English 3
Welsh 3

Happily, the 4 major series wins were captained by players from the 4 home nations :
1971 New Zealand - Dawes - Wales
1974 South Africa - McBride - Ireland
1989 Australia - Calder - Scotland
1997 South Africa - Johnson - England

Sadly for the Aussies, the Lions were pretty much expected to beat Australia until the mid-'60s, so series whitewashes against Oz on the way to New Zealand (1955 and 1966) didn't count as major series wins. How times have changed!

To me Warburton would be a bizarre choice of captain. Why have Ryan Jones and then Gethin Jenkins as Welsh captains - talking up how well Warburton did "without the pressure of captaincy" only to make him the Tour Captain.

Truly bizarre logic.

I'd have any Robshaw, Wyn Jones or O'Connell as captain.

I'm very worried about this, hopefully it isn't true. Because the guy isn't even the best openside in Wales- there was a time not too long ago when I wouldn't have had him on the plane. He deserves to be on the plane, but with the classy Tipuric and the powerful O'Brien joining him he's looking like he'll need an injury or two before he makes the test team.

Another example of a rumour gathering momentum and thanks to the Pavlovian-esque nature of our press desperate for a screaming headline, reported as 'news':
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10005617/Sam-Warburton-on-brink-of-being-named-captain-for-British-and-Irish-Lions-tour-of-Australia.html

Breathtakingly idiotic quote of the week right here:

"In the last six months, Warburton has gone from being a rank outsider to the odds-on favourite," Ladbrokes spokeswoman Jessica Bridge said. "Money talks, and it looks like Gatland has made up his mind."

That's right, Jessica. Gatland will pick his captain based on how many people at Ladbrokes St Mary St think that he should be.

Almost certainly a leak in that case. I have seen nothing about Sam (apart from presumably his zero tolerance approach to dwarf tossing and ferry jumping) to suggest he would be a better choice that O'Connell or O'Driscoll.

If I were Gatland I would stay well clear of appointing a Welsh captain in any event. It's going to be difficult enough to justify the squad that he is going to choose without the inevitable calls of favouritism when picking his captain. Angst he really doesn't need when trying to knit a squad together with good feeling.

Agree with that post GC

George Carlin wrote:If I were Gatland I would stay well clear of appointing a Welsh captain in any event. It's going to be difficult enough to justify the squad that he is going to choose without the inevitable calls of favouritism when picking his captain. Angst he really doesn't need when trying to knit a squad together with good feeling.

What are the Lions if not favourites of the coach? He is no more objective than any other individual setting out to pick a team. His decisions are bound to be coloured by his experiences and therefore the players he knows best are bound to stand a better chance than those he's watched in a few games. His remit is to win the series not pick the "best" players.

The Great Aukster wrote:

George Carlin wrote:If I were Gatland I would stay well clear of appointing a Welsh captain in any event. It's going to be difficult enough to justify the squad that he is going to choose without the inevitable calls of favouritism when picking his captain. Angst he really doesn't need when trying to knit a squad together with good feeling.

What are the Lions if not favourites of the coach? He is no more objective than any other individual setting out to pick a team. His decisions are bound to be coloured by his experiences and therefore the players he knows best are bound to stand a better chance than those he's watched in a few games. His remit is to win the series not pick the "best" players.

Aukster - whilst the players have to be favourites of the coach in the sense that their skills as players need to accord with their plans, the fact remains that a coach needs to knit together a disperate group of players in a very short space of time. Competition for test places is intense and history has told us that there is a correlation between the cameraderie and oneness of the touring party and the quality of results achieved.

I would go a step further and say that one of the most (if not *the* most) significant factor to the group meshing is whether the players feel that the route to a test shirt is a meritocracy and they are in with a chance if they show their best stuff in the weekday games.

Now, it would of course have been possible for the Lions management to choose a number of international coaches to front up the tour, but they chose a man who until very recently has been in charge of one of the nations whose players comprise the Lions. I don't think for one second that Gatland will be anything other than fairly clear eyed when making his selections - he's a proud guy and will want his legacy to be managing a successful touring party. However, given how hotly contested selection is going to be (these boards prove it), the best thing Gats can do is not throw himself open to the easy accusations of nepotism that will whizz everyone involved off (including him).

Admitting at the end of March that he's already chosen 70% of his squad didn't help Gats' cause as it alerted everyone to the possibility of another SCW 2005 selection farce. All I'm saying is that I think there are a number of people who'd make excellent choices as captain, so if I were him (and particuarly given that he's already said the captain needn't be a nailed on starter) I'd have to really, really want a Welsh player to risk starting the tour off on the wrong foot.

Surely 4 weeks before the tour he would want to have had 70% of his squad picked. That leaves about a third of the tour party still up for grabs. To be fair to Gatland seems like sound advice.

Practically, Staggy - the answer is "of course he's picked most of his squad".

Just that there's a way to construe that in a less than rosy manner when being chosen for good form still matters to a lot of players and there's also the broader point that there didn't seem to be any particular need to say it in the first place. Cannot wait for Gats v the Australian Sports Press press conferences.

And when the squad is actually announced, watch all hell break loose on these boards. Nobody will escape the WUM crossfire.

Personally I think form is an over rated commodity.

Im staying clear of this place once the squad is announced.

George Carlin wrote:
And when the squad is actually announced, watch all hell break loose on these boards. Nobody will escape the WUM crossfire.

That happens every tour.

Women, children and Scotland fans to get out first, Notch.

Last one to leave the boards (I'm guessing, Cyril) to turn out the lights.

Not sure it really matters that much who is captain. There will be lots of leaders in the side. A bit like Englands world cup winning side. Johnson was a great captain but you could have chosen any number of other captains in the side that could also rally the troups if required.

GunsGerms wrote:Not sure it really matters that much who is captain. There will be lots of leaders in the side. A bit like Englands world cup winning side. Johnson was a great captain but you could have chosen any number of other captains in the side that could also rally the troups if required.

I tend to disagree.... if the captain loses his head often the team colleapses.

The lions will breed a lot of emotions for new capped players.. many of the young players may find it overwhelming at times... and need a strong calm head to keep these guys in check.

By all accounts the lions will have a lot of inexperienced guys in the test team.

Warburton for instance struggles with the job with Wales... esp. this year in friendlies vs. Argentina, Samoa etc and when he struggled, Wales struggled.... even his coaches have acknowledged this.... and yet they are confident of giving him the responsibility for the biggest test series in rugby??? Madness.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Not sure it really matters that much who is captain. There will be lots of leaders in the side. A bit like Englands world cup winning side. Johnson was a great captain but you could have chosen any number of other captains in the side that could also rally the troups if required.

I tend to disagree.... if the captain loses his head often the team colleapses.

The lions will breed a lot of emotions for new capped players.. many of the young players may find it overwhelming at times... and need a strong calm head to keep these guys in check.

By all accounts the lions will have a lot of inexperienced guys in the test team.

Warburton for instance struggles with the job with Wales... esp. this year in friendlies vs. Argentina, Samoa etc and when he struggled, Wales struggled.... even his coaches have acknowledged this.... and yet they are confident of giving him the responsibility for the biggest test series in rugby??? Madness.

Thats not like you to disagree with me.

I dont think the Lions will have too many inexperienced players in the team. Gatland has already talked a few times about how the Lions is not a development tour and of the importance of experience.

I have no doubt that Robshaw, Best, POC, Warburton and Drico will all feature in the test side a some point possibly all at the same time. Maybe even Heaslip and Jenkins. Each of these guys have a lot of experience, including experience as captain for their club and country. Sexton also has leadership qualities and a lot of experience.

I really hope this is just a mob rule mentality, this isn't the X-Factor where the winner is by public vote or in this case public betting.

Warburton has been inconsistent at best this season, even being Dropped for the game against Italy for a "stinger" injury. That tells you all that needs to be said. Had Ryan Jones not gotten injured I seriously doubt Warburton would have been back in the squad.

He played well against England, and that's about it.

The problem the Lions face is we don't really have a fashionable leader at full fitness, who has played plenty of games.

POC, just back from injury although looking good (my choice from the ones the media are promoting)

BOD, almost certainly retiring after the summer and has been injury prone, also not 100% a definite starter.

Warburton, very inconsistent, not a definite starter in any backrow position.

AWJ, inconsistent and completely anonnymous when the Ospreys were hammered on Friday.

Heaslip, some posters don't even think he should be Irish captain but is still "in contention" for the Lions captaincy.

That leaves the unfasionable guys like Robshaw, Brown and Ryan Jones (although injured) who IMO have all had very strong seasons, captaining for their Countries and in some cases their Clubs and don't even seem to be in the frame.

It's a strange one how some of these guys seem popular and the real captains who have shown fitness and form are slipping off the radar.

RR - it is because most posters seem to base decisions on their nationality and one game

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I really hope this is just a mob rule mentality, this isn't the X-Factor where the winner is by public vote or in this case public betting.

Warburton has been inconsistent at best this season, even being Dropped for the game against Italy for a "stinger" injury. That tells you all that needs to be said. Had Ryan Jones not gotten injured I seriously doubt Warburton would have been back in the squad.

He played well against England, and that's about it.

The problem the Lions face is we don't really have a fashionable leader at full fitness, who has played plenty of games.

POC, just back from injury although looking good (my choice from the ones the media are promoting)

BOD, almost certainly retiring after the summer and has been injury prone, also not 100% a definite starter.

Warburton, very inconsistent, not a definite starter in any backrow position.

AWJ, inconsistent and completely anonnymous when the Ospreys were hammered on Friday.

Heaslip, some posters don't even think he should be Irish captain but is still "in contention" for the Lions captaincy.

That leaves the unfasionable guys like Robshaw, Brown and Ryan Jones (although injured) who IMO have all had very strong seasons, captaining for their Countries and in some cases their Clubs and don't even seem to be in the frame.

It's a strange one how some of these guys seem popular and the real captains who have shown fitness and form are slipping off the radar.

BOD probably wont be retiring anymore. Especially if Schmidt is apointed Ireland coach.

GG - you don't think he will retire if he tests and the lions win the series? Not sure if he could top that. Where would his motivation come from after that?

Sorry but I am totally ignorant when it comes to betting.

What does it mean when they suspend betting, it it because it is too obvious, to predictable, or too much money?

fa0019 wrote:GG - you don't think he will retire if he tests and the lions win the series? Not sure if he could top that. Where would his motivation come from after that?

Thats what I thought before the six nations. However, now that coach Declan Kidney's contract will not be renewed I have it on good authority that BOD loves working with Joe Schmidt and therefore if Schmidt got the Ireland job I'm guessing that would be motivation enough for BOD to continue for another year or so.

Also having lost his last game for Ireland v Italy for the first time ever in the 6N I'd say he will want to finish his Ireland career on a better note than that.

Does anyone here think that BOD, Warburton or AWJ would be the right choice as Lions Captain? Really?

When you consder that none of these players are certain to start the tests?

I personally think that Gatland & the Lions in future should avoid picking a tour captain from the outset and see how the players interact and perform in the dirt tracker games before making the decision.

4 years ago it was an easy decision, POC had been playing well for Munster and was instrumental in the Irish Grand Slam. Wales have had 3 or 4 (?) different captians in their last 7 internationals....

For me anyway a Lions captain should have at least had experience in captaining their country in an international test match, I know MJ hadn't captained England but that was a different era.

For me the choce has to be between POC, Robshaw, Brown or Sexton. Although Sexton hasn't captained for Ireland he has been a leader for Leinster in some intense Heineken cup contests.

Biltong wrote:Sorry but I am totally ignorant when it comes to betting.

What does it mean when they suspend betting, it it because it is too obvious, to predictable, or too much money?

It happens when they see suspicious betting patterns, i.e. large individual bets all of a sudden. Or they have been told themselves.

These guys are hardly ever wrong in these circumstances.

fa0019 wrote:GG - you don't think he will retire if he tests and the lions win the series?

I hate this trend of turning nouns into verbs. Unless you meant 'test' in its current meaning and forgot to add what BOD might test?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

fa0019 wrote:GG - you don't think he will retire if he tests and the lions win the series?

I hate this trend of turning nouns into verbs. Unless you meant 'test' in its current meaning and forgot to add what BOD might test?

I was referring to BOD playing in the test side at some point in the series. I would imagine most people would get what I'm saying.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Does anyone here think that BOD, Warburton or AWJ would be the right choice as Lions Captain? Really?

When you consder that none of these players are certain to start the tests?

I personally think that Gatland & the Lions in future should avoid picking a tour captain from the outset and see how the players interact and perform in the dirt tracker games before making the decision.

4 years ago it was an easy decision, POC had been playing well for Munster and was instrumental in the Irish Grand Slam. Wales have had 3 or 4 (?) different captians in their last 7 internationals....

For me anyway a Lions captain should have at least had experience in captaining their country in an international test match, I know MJ hadn't captained England but that was a different era.

For me the choce has to be between POC, Robshaw, Brown or Sexton. Although Sexton hasn't captained for Ireland he has been a leader for Leinster in some intense Heineken cup contests.

Jason Robinson thinks BOD should captain Ireland. Of all players that can be picked he has been involved in the most test match wins v Australia including two wins in the SH.

No other potential Lions captain has a similar record. Apart from his obvious qualities thats why BOD is on the shortlist. At this point he may not be a guarenteed starter however no other 13 has played better than him for some time so why not start him?

fa0019 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

fa0019 wrote:GG - you don't think he will retire if he tests and the lions win the series?

I hate this trend of turning nouns into verbs. Unless you meant 'test' in its current meaning and forgot to add what BOD might test?

I was referring to BOD playing in the test side at some point in the series. I would imagine most people would get what I'm saying.

I get what you're saying, I just don't like how you said it. I don't expect you to care.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

fa0019 wrote:GG - you don't think he will retire if he tests and the lions win the series?

I hate this trend of turning nouns into verbs. Unless you meant 'test' in its current meaning and forgot to add what BOD might test?

I was referring to BOD playing in the test side at some point in the series. I would imagine most people would get what I'm saying.

I get what you're saying, I just don't like how you said it. I don't expect you to care.

not really. I think I have perfectly good spelling and grammer myself.

It will be a huge mistake to make Warburton captain of the Lions.

If you must have a "tour captain" then sure go for it.

The best Lions back row is

6. SOB
7. Tipuric
8. Falteau

NOTE i put 2 welshmen in there and would have 6-8 in the starting XV.

I am not anti welsh.

Warburton is not the right man for the job.

I'd be interested to know what welsh posters think of him as captain... obviously people root for their own man but do they really think he is the right choice?

12 months ago sure... but this last years ups and downs were certainly in part to Warburton's issues with the captaincy.

Triangulation wrote:

I am not anti welsh.

Do you know how many Welshmen you've had over to your house?

GunsGerms wrote:

Jason Robinson thinks BOD should captain Ireland. Of all players that can be picked he has been involved in the most test match wins v Australia including two wins in the SH.

No other potential Lions captain has a similar record. Apart from his obvious qualities thats why BOD is on the shortlist. At this point he may not be a guarenteed starter however no other 13 has played better than him for some time so why not start him?

Absobloominlutely! The Lions stampede needs a good herd of Longhorn Welsh, English and Scottish steers, and some Irish cowboys (not of the building variety) directing them

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

I am not anti welsh.

Do you know how many Welshmen you've had over to your house?

Yes. 2 but given that i've only had my place since February that is probably a diproportionately high number in London!

Anyway all the nationalist stuff it the last refuge of the scoundrel.

Warburton should not be captain of the Lions end of.

Make him chief sneak in the drinking games by all means but not captain

I don't have a problem with Warburton captaining the touring party, but Gatland could have a real problem on his hands if he says that Warburton will also captain the Test side. Once he does that, he's obliged to play him come what may.

I think Warburton is a good enough captain and certainly a Lions test quality player. My only issue with him is Wales' record v Australia with him as captain. All other potential captains have steered their team or played for their team in wins v Australia.

I dont think he has ever even been on the winning side v Australia!!

GunsGerms wrote:I think Warburton is a good enough captain and certainly a Lions test quality player. My only issue with him is Wales' record v Australia with him as captain. All other potential captains have steered their team or played for their team in wins v Australia.

I dont think he has ever even been on the winning side v Australia!!

How many players in the 1997 side had beaten South Africa?

Quite a few in the 2005 squad had beaten New Zealand.

I personally think the playing record of a particular individual against Australia is utterly irrelevant in a Lions context. I'd be equally as interested in his favourite colour. I even say that as a Scot, as several of our players have defeated Australia home and away. Utterly irrelevant.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think Warburton is a good enough captain and certainly a Lions test quality player. My only issue with him is Wales' record v Australia with him as captain. All other potential captains have steered their team or played for their team in wins v Australia.

I dont think he has ever even been on the winning side v Australia!!

How many players in the 1997 side had beaten South Africa?

Quite a few in the 2005 squad had beaten New Zealand.

I personally think the playing record of a particular individual against Australia is utterly irrelevant in a Lions context. I'd be equally as interested in his favourite colour. I even say that as a Scot, as several of our players have defeated Australia home and away. Utterly irrelevant.

Its not irrelevant. Wales have played Australia 8 times since Nov '09 and lost every single game. Warburton played in at least half of those matches. Do you think that would full someone like Warburton full of confidence? I dont.

I think it would make him even more determined.

The memory of victory is very important. I reckon that once a team manages to beat a big team once the memory of that win can often play a key role in getting over the line a second time. Warburton hasnt experienced a win ever v Australia and therefore its not beyond the realms of possibility that his decision making could be influenced by this. I think that the likes of POC, BOD or Robshaw would be more confident and therefore have a more positive influence on their team.

GunsGerms wrote:The memory of victory is very important. I reckon that once a team manages to beat a big team once the memory of that win can often play a key role in getting over the line a second time. Warburton hasnt experienced a win ever v Australia and therefore its not beyond the realms of possibility that his decision making could be influenced by this. I think that the likes of POC, BOD or Robshaw would be more confident and therefore have a more positive influence on their team.

More confident, or more complacent?

This is all speculation.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think Warburton is a good enough captain and certainly a Lions test quality player. My only issue with him is Wales' record v Australia with him as captain. All other potential captains have steered their team or played for their team in wins v Australia.

I dont think he has ever even been on the winning side v Australia!!

How many players in the 1997 side had beaten South Africa?

Quite a few in the 2005 squad had beaten New Zealand.

I personally think the playing record of a particular individual against Australia is utterly irrelevant in a Lions context. I'd be equally as interested in his favourite colour. I even say that as a Scot, as several of our players have defeated Australia home and away. Utterly irrelevant.

Gunsgerms is correct.


FES is wrong. Utterly wrong.

Confidence and experience in beating a particular side is very important and very helpful. If it s simply not available then fine you kjust have to be determined and say "let's make our own history here boys!" But if it is available - make the best use of it.

What about the fact that BOD and POC have never won with the Lions? Will that affect their "mentality" and confidence?

Warburton won't be scarred by their previous "failure".

What about Robshaw's last performance against Australia as captain? Massive underachievement, at Twickenham as well. Has Robshaw ever looked a particularly comfortable captain for England under pressure?

I personally think all that's complete nonsense, but so is your silly point about Warburton's playing record against Australia being in any way relevant to his ability to captain the Lions.

GunsGerms wrote:The memory of victory is very important. I reckon that once a team manages to beat a big team once the memory of that win can often play a key role in getting over the line a second time. Warburton hasnt experienced a win ever v Australia and therefore its not beyond the realms of possibility that his decision making could be influenced by this. I think that the likes of POC, BOD or Robshaw would be more confident and therefore have a more positive influence on their team.

I agree. I am Welsh and I don't think Warburton and the other Welsh players are very scarred by loosing so often to Australia, but they are bound to have a little less confidence than players who have not had such a series of losses. Also the Lions need balance and with all Welsh and English coaches it makes sense for the capatain to come from Scotland or Ireland, So my choice is POC as he has clearly come back with a head of steam and is marginally more likely to command his position and stay fit than BOD is.

By the way Warburton is the best 7 in Wales. We talk about people like Robshaw being a 6.5 well Tuperic is a 7.75 I watched him play against Glasgow on Friday and he was outstanding mainly because when running he looked far better than either of the Osprey's centres and shone by comparison with them. But I think the LIons will have a couple of pretty good centres and although Tuperic would do an excelent job for them if its a 7 that does all the conventional 7 tasks well, such as tackling fast backs and big forwards, winning ball on the ground, carrying the ball forward in the tight and the loose then Warburton provides that balance.

I know these guys are operating at a way higher level but I just know from playing the game myself whenever in a tight game against a formidable side when it comes to the crunch having the memory of a win against them can help a lot. You will take anything you can get when the head starts to go a bit.

That said and as I have said before I wouldnt be concerned at all if warburton was selected as captain as he has plenty of strenghts and is generally a good captain IMO.

Newsilure wrote:The Lions need balance and with all Welsh and English coaches it makes sense for the capatain to come from Scotland or Ireland

Do we want to win the series or make sure no one feels left out?!

Pick the best players, regardless of nationality and whether they've beaten the Wallabies before.

Choosing best players would be dependent (to an extent) on whether they've proved they have the ability to beat the Wallabies before. To an extent, Gatland will have perused that one.

Playing the Wallabies, at home in their own territory, won't be the same as beating up each other in a 6N; one that had a France doing some trick to get last and Ireland doing another one to nearly beat them to it!)

'Best players' is a little hard to decipher after that bizarre trifle called the 6N this year.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Newsilure wrote:The Lions need balance and with all Welsh and English coaches it makes sense for the capatain to come from Scotland or Ireland

Do we want to win the series or make sure no one feels left out?!

Pick the best players, regardless of nationality and whether they've beaten the Wallabies before.

The best players will more than likely be picked anyway so you still have to make one of them captain. So for that I think there are lots of factors that should be considered. Record against the Wallabies is just one of them and maybe a small one for some people but its a factor none the less.

Of all the popular captain choices:

Robshaw
POC
BOD
Warburton
Best

I think they should all start the test matches as they are all marginally the best player in their position right now.

I guess I'm just a little scarred myself after Sir Clive picked his 2005 squad based entirely on the "been there, seen it before, got the t-shirt" criterion, and forgot to consider (a) the type of game to expect down in the SH, and (b) the players he needed to compete and win at that type of game.

For me the weakness in Warburton's candidacy is primarily Justin Tipuric and SOB, not whether he has leadership abilities. His captaincy at the last WC was generally excellent and decisive, and I have no doubts he'd be able to lead this tour well from a captaincy perspective. The doubts for me stem from his position not just in the Test XV, but the fact that he's been in and out of the Welsh XV over the last 6 months. That for me is the key point.

He was excellent in the key game against England in the 6 Nations, really excellent, but had Dan Lydiate been fit, he probably wouldn't have started the game. That's not just second choice for the Lions, but second choice for his country. When weighting up the options (POC, BOD, Robshaw and Brown), they can at least all claim to be in their nations starting XV.

I wouldn't have a massive issue with Warburton, purely because there is no outstanding candidate for this tour, and I do think he has leadership qualities, but it's certainly a first as far as I can recall, a Lions captain who isn't guaranteed to start for his own country.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I guess I'm just a little scarred myself after Sir Clive picked his 2005 squad based entirely on the "been there, seen it before, got the t-shirt" criterion, and forgot to consider (a) the type of game to expect down in the SH, and (b) the players he needed to compete and win at that type of game.

For me the weakness in Warburton's candidacy is primarily Justin Tipuric and SOB, not whether he has leadership abilities. His captaincy at the last WC was generally excellent and decisive, and I have no doubts he'd be able to lead this tour well from a captaincy perspective. The doubts for me stem from his position not just in the Test XV, but the fact that he's been in and out of the Welsh XV over the last 6 months. That for me is the key point.

He was excellent in the key game against England in the 6 Nations, really excellent, but had Dan Lydiate been fit, he probably wouldn't have started the game. That's not just second choice for the Lions, but second choice for his country. When weighting up the options (POC, BOD, Robshaw and Brown), they can at least all claim to be in their nations starting XV.

I wouldn't have a massive issue with Warburton, purely because there is no outstanding candidate for this tour, and I do think he has leadership qualities, but it's certainly a first as far as I can recall, a Lions captain who isn't guaranteed to start for his own country.

Just out of interest, if SCW got the wrong game plan etc then which players, strategy should he have used? Remember the first test was the most competitive and the closest points margin between the 2 sides and that was the primary team built on SCW ideas.

Its only that its often suggested but I myself find it difficult to see how they could have played otherwise.