Ladrokes suspend bets on Warbuton to captain the Lions

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Following a flood of money in the last 48 hours Ladrokes have suspended taking any more bets on Warburton captaining the Lions in the 1st test match http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/rugby-warburton-well-backed-captain-lions-110120373.html . It's amazing how fortunes change, from being a hero going into the World Cup semi final, a 'villain' (unfairly so) after the World Cup semi final, to a zero (unfairly so) after the Ireland game, to a hero after the Scotland and England matches.

On the basis that bookmakers seldom get it wrong, does this mean that Warburton will be at 6 - surely he can't be picked at 7 ahead of Tipuric? This will 'free up' the likes of Robshaw and Wood for the Argentina tour.

100%beefy wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:AW Jones Imo is a tad overrated. Charteris and Ian Evans are much better players IMO.

I hear you about AWJ....but i think his major flaws e.g. catching and tripping etc may have given him some much needed character and maturity....cometh the hour etc. His work rate is immense and he is a player the others can follow. BOD as skipper to me is a throwback to a tour i wish to forget. POC, if fit and firing works. It seems pretty foreboding that we don't even really have an obvious capt.

Can't knock Evans this year, he has really lived up to his potential. But so has AWJ, Wales and Ospreys miss him massively when he isn't there. A great captain too.

Why is AWJ even being considered? I'm pretty sure he won't tour (Gatland bias aside). Overrated and has an attitude problem.

The notion that AWJ is world class was blown apart in the last lions tour... one of the most disappointing players of the entire tour. Went in as 1st (on reputation and Gatlands insistance on his worthiness) out of O'Callaghan, Shaw and Hines and came back last.

Solid player but the lions need more then someone who shows his greatest intensity during the anthems.

fa0019 wrote:The notion that AWJ is world class was blown apart in the last lions tour... one of the most disappointing players of the entire tour. Went in as 1st (on reputation and Gatlands insistance on his worthiness) out of O'Callaghan, Shaw and Hines and came back last.

Solid player but the lions need more then someone who shows his greatest intensity during the anthems.

He is a much better player than he was at 23. He's won two more six nations reached the semis of the RWC and won a couple of Pro 12 titles. I don't think that many of the other contenders have achieved so much in four years?

Fantastic player experienced captain, intelligent tactician and will do well on tour.

AWJ wasn't so much disappointing on the last tour as he was just the wrong partner for Paul O'Connell. It was a balance issue that lead to Shaw's call up rather than AWJ doing anything particularly wrong.

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The notion that AWJ is world class was blown apart in the last lions tour... one of the most disappointing players of the entire tour. Went in as 1st (on reputation and Gatlands insistance on his worthiness) out of O'Callaghan, Shaw and Hines and came back last.

Solid player but the lions need more then someone who shows his greatest intensity during the anthems.

He is a much better player than he was at 23. He's won two more six nations reached the semis of the RWC and won a couple of Pro 12 titles. I don't think that many of the other contenders have achieved so much in four years?

Fantastic player experienced captain, intelligent tactician and will do well on tour.

Maes i agree with re AWJ. I have to just raise something at this point though because it comes up time and time again from welsh posters. It is the bit in bold. Do you really think that that is an achievement worth noting AT ALL? Of course you made it further than England did but really? Really? I would be embarrassed to boast that my team had made (and then lost) a semi. In fact semis are really nothing to write home about at all.

thomh wrote:AWJ wasn't so much disappointing on the last tour as he was just the wrong partner for Paul O'Connell. It was a balance issue that lead to Shaw's call up rather than AWJ doing anything particularly wrong.

Agreed. In fact prior to the 1st Test the best lock pairing on the tour looked to be Shaw and AWJ, or Shaw and Hines. POC didn't play badly in the Tests, but he had a poor tour leading up to the 1st Test. Were he not captain I don't think he would have been picked.

And whoever gets named as captain, whether it's Warburton or anyone else, that risk is run again: Gatland will be obliged to play him even if he hasn't been playing well, or others in his position have been playing better.

Far better to make it clear from the off that your tour captain won't necessarily be the Test captain.

Completely agree. In 1997, 2001 and 2005 the risk was nil, as the captain selected was clearly the best available player for his position. There was a bit of a question mark over that in 2009 (although I agreed with the selection of POC at the time myself).

This time round there's a massive question mark. No player is guaranteed to start if fit, other than (in my view) Sexton.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And whoever gets named as captain, whether it's Warburton or anyone else, that risk is run again: Gatland will be obliged to play him even if he hasn't been playing well, or others in his position have been playing better.

Far better to make it clear from the off that your tour captain won't necessarily be the Test captain.

Which he has, hasn't he?

If he has, Rev, it's a wise move. I thought no offical announcement had been made.

If Warburton is picked as either captain it will be a mistake.

If Warburton is picked as either captain i will back him as captain of the Lions right the way through the series.

I am Lions to my bootstraps.

When is the captaincy announced? Surely any day now given that the squad will be announced at the end of the week.

The 30th

According to the Guardian the shortlist is

Warburton, POC and BOD.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/apr/22/paul-o-connell-lions-munster-interview

O'Connell for me then. Neither BOD or Warbs are guarenteed a starting slot. Mind you neither is POC.

POC will be up against big Wagga in the match against Clermont and if he comes 2nd best in that clash his chances will take a dent.

That brings up BOD who might not be prefered before JD2, Manu or Twelvetrees, and Warburton who was stripped of the Captaincy for his country to focus on "his own game" despite the fact he probably wouldn't get a starting slot for his country if Lydiate, Tipuric and Faleteu are all fit.

In short IMO this apparent short list is a shambles and Gatland might be forcing himself into a corner.

12x3 surely isnt ahead of BOD even if he is decent. MTs form is fairly poor as is his diciplinary record both on and off the field. JD2 didnt have a great 6N either. Think BOD will surely be picked given his pedigree and his form isnt bad at all either.

If Gatland is a man of decision and a man who is stubborn... ( I think it's safe enough for us all to agree that he is both).. then I personally can't see Paul being Captain.

I say that because Gatland strongly hinted that he had already made up his mind about the Captain and just hasn't gotten around to telling the Captain yet. But he hinted at that when he was also at the same time commending O'Connell's return to playing but cautioning that it would need more than one game to make a call on Paul... (assuming he meant just in terms of being on the plane)

It seems Gatland had his mind made up and O'Connell wasn't it. If he gets the nod now, Gatland will have done a St. Paul conversion in the last week or three.

For me, because there is no certain test starter there should be a tour captain. IMO POC is the best man for this job. Im sure he would command respect from all quarters and has a wealth of experience on and off the pitch.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If he has, Rev, it's a wise move. I thought no offical announcement had been made.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/lions-coach-warren-gatland-prepared-2514318

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If he has, Rev, it's a wise move. I thought no offical announcement had been made.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/lions-coach-warren-gatland-prepared-2514318

POC doesnt even get a mention in that article.

Can't say that BOD had a better 6N than JD2 if I'm honest. JD has also been in excellent form for the Scarlets.

BOD has no doubt had a glittering career and his passing for Ireland's try against Wales was great, however I think for the first time in a while we might have better options at 13 for the Lions.

GunsGerms wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If he has, Rev, it's a wise move. I thought no offical announcement had been made.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/lions-coach-warren-gatland-prepared-2514318

POC doesnt even get a mention in that article.

I've seen his name mentioned in there.

Risca Rev wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If he has, Rev, it's a wise move. I thought no offical announcement had been made.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/lions-coach-warren-gatland-prepared-2514318

POC doesnt even get a mention in that article.

I've seen his name mentioned in there.

Ha, in reference to the last tour but not as a potential captain this time round.

"Wales’ Six Nations stars Sam Warburton, Ryan Jones and Alun Wyn Jones, Ireland legend Brian O’Driscoll and England captains Chris Robshaw have all been touted as possible squad skippers."

Not sure how Robshaw merits being referred to as captains either. He is just one captain.

GunsGerms wrote:
Not sure how Robshaw merits being referred to as captains either. He is just one captain.

Maybe they were going to add the name Steve Borthwick to the list, but wet themselves laughing before they could summon up the composure to write his name?

I wouldn't worry to much about what the Wail write. I only used it to highlight Gatland's quotes on the Tour Captain's form.

GunsGerms wrote:According to the Guardian the shortlist is

Warburton, POC and BOD.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/apr/22/paul-o-connell-lions-munster-interview

If any of those three are picked as captain of the lions. Then i dont see any other than a full White wash of the Lions.

majesticimperialman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:According to the Guardian the shortlist is

Warburton, POC and BOD.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/apr/22/paul-o-connell-lions-munster-interview

If any of those three are picked as captain of the lions. Then i dont see any other than a full White wash of the Lions.

Thats nice. Maybe you should make other plans for June now.

majesticimperialman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:According to the Guardian the shortlist is

Warburton, POC and BOD.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/apr/22/paul-o-connell-lions-munster-interview

If any of those three are picked as captain of the lions. Then i dont see any other than a full White wash of the Lions.

Who is your choice majestic?

SecretFly wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:According to the Guardian the shortlist is

Warburton, POC and BOD.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/apr/22/paul-o-connell-lions-munster-interview

If any of those three are picked as captain of the lions. Then i dont see any other than a full White wash of the Lions.

Who is your choice majestic?

Ryan Jones, Chris Robshaw. Either on of them two would be my first choice for the captains arm band.

majesticimperialman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Who is your choice majestic?

Ryan Jones, Chris Robshaw. Either on of them two would be my first choice for the captains arm band.

Jones suffers from the same problem as Warbs. In a fully fit Welsh side he would not start. Lydiate, Tips and Faleteu starting.

Robshaw is not guarenteed a start for the Lions either, competition in the back row is so tight.

Sexton would be my pick. Almost certainly one of the 1st if not the 1st name on the team sheet if he is fit. My only concern would be how he would function with "Flanker" Phllips, who seems on a set course for another 3 tests of embarrassment at the hands of Genia.

Ryan Jones won't make the test team and Robshaw isn't a vocal captain. The lions captain needs to pull together players from four different countries who are usually trying to kick lumps out of each other. Being vocal is a necessity.

The two thing's that Warran Gatland cannot afford to d, is chose a player or players on past reputation or for sentimetal reasons. (BOD) This could well be the last year of his carreer. He ( Gatland ) cannot afford too take him along for one final send off.

POC, did not do that much on the last Lions tour regards captain duties....One great come back game against Quins is not enough too gaurantee him his place. IMO.

I do agree that Robshaw may not even be on the plane too Australia. Having said that i do think/believe that he (Robshaw) has done more than Warburton as, and should be given more consideration.

You say Ryan Jones wont make the squad why? is he injured?

Why give the captains arm band to Sexton? is he back playing yet?

Sexton played Sunday and I'm pretty sure he received motm, it was against Zebre though.

As I've mentioned before, Martyn Williams said that POC was the best captain he has ever played under, high praise indeed. It's not like he's under pressure to say things like that after the tour.

And if BOD is selected it will be because the coach thinks he deserves to be, not because of sentiment, there's too much on the line for that to be a factor.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Why is AWJ even being considered? I'm pretty sure he won't tour (Gatland bias aside). Overrated and has an attitude problem.

Pot kettle black!!

Name one player who someone somewhere doesnt think has an attitude problem or is overrated....

lostinwales wrote:Name one player who someone somewhere doesnt think has an attitude problem or is overrated....

Dan Carter

lostinwales wrote:Name one player who someone somewhere doesnt think has an attitude problem or is overrated....

Dan Carter?

Snap!

Amazed at some of the comments here...

Ryan Jones selection would surprise me big time, almost as much as Robshaws exclusion!!!

I can't understand the thinking around making Warburton captain either, Tipuric, Robshaw and Barcley/Rennie have all been better than him for 12 months, he is a quality player but hasn't had any form/luck since last years 6N!!!

I think taking BOD as a captain would be a great idea, but only in a mascott/publicity/schaperone type of way!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Amazed at some of the comments here...

Ryan Jones selection would surprise me big time, almost as much as Robshaws exclusion!!!

I can't understand the thinking around making Warburton captain either, Tipuric, Robshaw and Barcley/Rennie have all been better than him for 12 months, he is a quality player but hasn't had any form/luck since last years 6N!!!

I think taking BOD as a captain would be a great idea, but only in a mascott/publicity/schaperone type of way!!

I think this would be a huge faux pas....inagine if your skipper doesn't play, what does that say about your side. Touring lions sides traditionally batten down the hatches and go into a siege mentality. You want a skipper who leads that from the front, where the metal meets the meet. Not a capt who does pr and has top constantly epxlain to a baiting press what his role is and why he isn't playing. I love BOD and if fit and firing then fine but i just can't see him doing it at the moment. And my preference is a forward skipper who gets in the faces of the aussies.

100%beefy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Amazed at some of the comments here...

Ryan Jones selection would surprise me big time, almost as much as Robshaws exclusion!!!

I can't understand the thinking around making Warburton captain either, Tipuric, Robshaw and Barcley/Rennie have all been better than him for 12 months, he is a quality player but hasn't had any form/luck since last years 6N!!!

I think taking BOD as a captain would be a great idea, but only in a mascott/publicity/schaperone type of way!!

I think this would be a huge faux pas....inagine if your skipper doesn't play, what does that say about your side. Touring lions sides traditionally batten down the hatches and go into a siege mentality. You want a skipper who leads that from the front, where the metal meets the meet. Not a capt who does pr and has top constantly epxlain to a baiting press what his role is and why he isn't playing. I love BOD and if fit and firing then fine but i just can't see him doing it at the moment. And my preference is a forward skipper who gets in the faces of the aussies.

But you can't batten down the hatches when your captain has so many tour responsibilities outside of the training pitch or changing room!!!

Players like Adam Jones, Jenkins, Robshaw, Best, POC, Roberts, Phillips etc don't need to be led, theyre all highly experienced players, who have been there and done it, they are all leaders! Let BOD do the public stuff, keep the pressure off the experienced players to do their jobs.

BOD doesn't make my test team right now anyway.

Telling you Kelly Brown would be a great choice.

:BOD doesn't make my test team right now anyway.


I totaly agree with you on that one.

Do you seriously think BOD would agree to go as captain but as only some kind of mascot or publicity stunt? No chance, especially while he's still playing, it would be a huge insult.

Btw, I think he will tour and probably start the first test.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Telling you Kelly Brown would be a great choice.

If he is then a) I've won a small amount of money
and
b) I called this a year ago

majesticimperialman wrote:The two thing's that Warran Gatland cannot afford to d, is chose a player or players on past reputation or for sentimetal reasons. (BOD) This could well be the last year of his carreer. He ( Gatland ) cannot afford too take him along for one final send off.

POC, did not do that much on the last Lions tour regards captain duties....One great come back game against Quins is not enough too gaurantee him his place. IMO.

I do agree that Robshaw may not even be on the plane too Australia. Having said that i do think/believe that he (Robshaw) has done more than Warburton as, and should be given more consideration.

You say Ryan Jones wont make the squad why? is he injured?

Why give the captains arm band to Sexton? is he back playing yet?

Does this rule out a few more Welsh players in the Lions then, there one great performance against England?

specifically who nathan?

thebluesmancometh wrote:...Players like Adam Jones, Jenkins, Robshaw, Best, POC, Roberts, Phillips etc don't need to be led, they're all highly experienced players, who have been there and done it, they are all leaders!...

They are all experienced players but they haven't all been there and done it. None of them has won a Lions series; none has won a World Cup; none has a winning record against Australia (or any of the Big Three southern opposition), and only POC has won a Heineken Cup.

The truth is, the Home Unions don't have a lot of people who tick any of those boxes. For experience, the Irish and Welsh players are our best bet but we shouldn't overestimate their ability to lead at the highest levels of international competition.

Gretgael1 wrote:Do you seriously think BOD would agree to go as captain but as only some kind of mascot or publicity stunt? No chance, especially while he's still playing, it would be a huge insult.

Btw, I think he will tour and probably start the first test.

No...bluesman doesn't think that.