Ladrokes suspend bets on Warbuton to captain the Lions

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Following a flood of money in the last 48 hours Ladrokes have suspended taking any more bets on Warburton captaining the Lions in the 1st test match http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/rugby-warburton-well-backed-captain-lions-110120373.html . It's amazing how fortunes change, from being a hero going into the World Cup semi final, a 'villain' (unfairly so) after the World Cup semi final, to a zero (unfairly so) after the Ireland game, to a hero after the Scotland and England matches.

On the basis that bookmakers seldom get it wrong, does this mean that Warburton will be at 6 - surely he can't be picked at 7 ahead of Tipuric? This will 'free up' the likes of Robshaw and Wood for the Argentina tour.

If he does get then I wish him well, but it will feel like 'jobs for the boys' which is ok if we're winning but if it goes wrong then the squad could be divided very early on which would play into the hands of the Aussies.

VictorU3 wrote:If he does get then I wish him well, but it will feel like 'jobs for the boys' which is ok if we're winning but if it goes wrong then the squad could be divided very early on which would play into the hands of the Aussies.

Thats the thing... no one cares when you win. How can you argue with a series victory?

But this tour like all others (both wins and losses) will have massive ups and downs... and at the downs you don't want the players to have a feeling of being marginalised/overlooked etc because they aren't from country X (well SCO, ENG, IRE, WAL).

Gatland is in a tight spot. If he doesn't pick enough Welsh players he disheartens the side he will be returning to as it seems he doesn't believe in his players. If he picks too many the non-Welsh players and non-starters see nepotism as do the media and the Lions spirit and morale of the Lions is ruined. This is why current International coaches should not be Lions coaches

Stephen Donald had the same thing labelled at him in Hong Kong but he kicked the winning RWC points. I think he's merely pointing out the frustration at the result. I hardly think he's hanging Priestland out to dry though I admit he could've stated it in a better way. Hardly grounds though for discounting him as a Lions player.

Just out of curiosity, what would your Lions back row be Tri? I think lock is a troublesome area and POC as captain is a good choice as no names leap out in terms of selection there though there are quite a few players for Gatland to choose from. Your captain has to be first choice for the team and personally I feel SOB offers more at 6 than Warburton but his lack of combinations stands against him. It's all about balance and combinations and that is why the Lions are so hard to select.

It depends on how Gatland feels. He knows all the main candidates well, and has toured with them before.

He shouldn't start fretting about what other people may think about Welsh bias - he should just pick the best team and captain as he sees it.

POC is a decent contender, but there's a fair debate to be had as to whether he's good enough for the XV, as there is with Warburton. If you go down the "tour captain" route, then I suppose that also brings BOD into the reckoning as well. Not that all three may not make the XV, I just suspect that Gatland may want to avoid fettering his discretion to pick the XV down the line, should the form of these individuals not hold up.

Wow, the English get really wound up at the thought of a welsh captain. POC would be my choice.

I reckon they should have given the job to Nick Mallett... not everyone's favourite but he's an outsider, knows the European game well as well as the players and is a proven winner at test level (both for big cheeses and underdogs alike).

mikey_philVIII wrote:Wow, the English get really wound up at the thought of a welsh captain. POC would be my choice.

Nah, Ryan Jones would have been a decent Welsh Lions captain. I just wouldn't have picked Warbs. But if it is him I hope he does a fantastic job and will praise him to the rooftops if we win. Seems like a nice lad too

Jake White would've been even better fa for the opposite reason. Inside knowledge of the Australian game and able to devise a gameplan for the players he has.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Jake White would've been even better fa for the opposite reason. Inside knowledge of the Australian game and able to devise a gameplan for the players he has.

Plus if we brought Strauss, Barritt, Botha etc he'd be working with his own countrymen

who is going to oust O'Connell from the no.5 berth?

Evans is the closest but he doesn't have the intensity nor the respect that POC brings.
Parling... for all his plaudits he's a lineout specialist only and even then England had the worst lineout record in the 6N (although in the rest of the field he performed better then expected).
Hamilton...decent lineout operator, has a bit of a thug about him (which is both good and bad .. more bad to be honest given he can't stop getting binned/penalised).

The rest are No.4s.

O'Connell is near certain to start if fit.

Hines? Shaw (probs not to be honest)? Are they even available as it looks like they will be playing in the T14 final match

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Stephen Donald had the same thing labelled at him in Hong Kong but he kicked the winning RWC points. I think he's merely pointing out the frustration at the result. I hardly think he's hanging Priestland out to dry though I admit he could've stated it in a better way. Hardly grounds though for discounting him as a Lions player.

Just out of curiosity, what would your Lions back row be Tri? I think lock is a troublesome area and POC as captain is a good choice as no names leap out in terms of selection there though there are quite a few players for Gatland to choose from. Your captain has to be first choice for the team and personally I feel SOB offers more at 6 than Warburton but his lack of combinations stands against him. It's all about balance and combinations and that is why the Lions are so hard to select.

Kia it is a competitive area but this is such an easy quesiton to answer.

Same as yours.

6. SOB (animal in contact. part of the wrecking gang vs oz in RWC 2011)

7. Tipuric (scavenger extraordinair and auxiliary centre)

8. Faletau (ideally suited to fast oz tracks)

ChequeredJersey wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Jake White would've been even better fa for the opposite reason. Inside knowledge of the Australian game and able to devise a gameplan for the players he has.

Plus if we brought Strauss, Barritt, Botha etc he'd be working with his own countrymen

If that was the case you could just imagine Robbie Deans bringing back Dan Vickerman and Clyde Rathbone just to stoke the fires!!!!

Imagine a lions vs. AUS match where 5 tries were scored in total, one each from Strauss, Barritt & Botha for the lions and one each from Vickerman & Rathbone for AUS.

Back to reality, the problem is that White has a job already... Mallett is now your bog standard pundit.

fa0019 wrote:who is going to oust O'Connell from the no.5 berth?

Evans is the closest but he doesn't have the intensity nor the respect that POC brings.
Parling... for all his plaudits he's a lineout specialist only and even then England had the worst lineout record in the 6N (although in the rest of the field he performed better then expected).
Hamilton...decent lineout operator, has a bit of a thug about him (which is both good and bad .. more bad to be honest given he can't stop getting binned/penalised).

The rest are No.4s.

O'Connell is near certain to start if fit.

Firstly - "if fit" is a big caveat. He's only just back from a long injury, and as good as he was against Quins, he was completely anonymous against Glasgow in the prior match.

I'd say that the Welsh duo of Ian Evans and Alan Wyn Jones had a pretty strong case - certainly strong enough to suggest that POC is not "near certain to start".

He was on better form going into the last Lions tour, and faded and struggled his way through the tour frankly. Had he not been captain, he wouldn't have started the first test I suspect.

Great player in his pomp, but he's not "near certain to start" anymore.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:who is going to oust O'Connell from the no.5 berth?

Evans is the closest but he doesn't have the intensity nor the respect that POC brings.
Parling... for all his plaudits he's a lineout specialist only and even then England had the worst lineout record in the 6N (although in the rest of the field he performed better then expected).
Hamilton...decent lineout operator, has a bit of a thug about him (which is both good and bad .. more bad to be honest given he can't stop getting binned/penalised).

The rest are No.4s.

O'Connell is near certain to start if fit.

Firstly - "if fit" is a big caveat. He's only just back from a long injury, and as good as he was against Quins, he was completely anonymous against Glasgow in the prior match.

I'd say that the Welsh duo of Ian Evans and Alan Wyn Jones had a pretty strong case - certainly strong enough to suggest that POC is not "near certain to start".

He was on better form going into the last Lions tour, and faded and struggled his way through the tour frankly. Had he not been captain, he wouldn't have started the first test I suspect.

Great player in his pomp, but he's not "near certain to start" anymore.

if isnt a big caveat at this stage now. He has been excellent in more than a few games. I think he has proved his fitness.

I would not choose Sam for captain. I don't believe he is a definate starter in a very competitive back row.

That said, I don't think there are many definate starters who are also candidates for captain. If pushed I would opt for AWJ or POC.

fa0019 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Jake White would've been even better fa for the opposite reason. Inside knowledge of the Australian game and able to devise a gameplan for the players he has.

Plus if we brought Strauss, Barritt, Botha etc he'd be working with his own countrymen

If that was the case you could just imagine Robbie Deans bringing back Dan Vickerman and Clyde Rathbone just to stoke the fires!!!!

Imagine a lions vs. AUS match where 5 tries were scored in total, one each from Strauss, Barritt & Botha for the lions and one each from Vickerman & Rathbone for AUS.

Back to reality, the problem is that White has a job already... Mallett is now your bog standard pundit.

Strauss wont be there, nor will Botha. Barrett has an outside chance.

It wasn't really a serious suggestion g&g, more gentle teasing of my own country's SA contigent and reputation for playing thereof

OK, perhaps POC has proved he's fit, but I stand by the fact that he isn't a certain starter.

The very fact that AWJ is a rival candidate for the captaincy would suggest that to me, as both are unlikely to start the tests.

It's not a straightforward decision this one for Gatland. The decision on the last 4 tours was much simpler.

Well if its a dry tour Phillips, Care and Tuilagi will be mightily disappointed - if they travel of course !

Care has given up alcohol

ChequeredJersey wrote:Care has given up alcohol

I read that too. Good for him. Not easy to do, but good that he recognised that it was affecting his career. He's an excellent scrum half.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Care has given up alcohol

I read that too. Good for him. Not easy to do, but good that he recognised that it was affecting his career. He's an excellent scrum half.

He just needs to sort out that haircut now

True that. It is bloody awful. We could make an awful haircut Lions 15

I wouldn't have picked Warburton, but not for Tiangulation's ridiculous reasons. For me the lions captain is someone who has been there and done it for the Lions. OK, I know Martin Johnson didn't do it that way. But I think we need someone who's been touring in that mixed nationality environment and knows what to expect. BOD fits the bill. But he's not been at his best so may not be a starting player. POC fits it too. Has he played enough (certainly looked good)? AWJ has been on a tour but is he nailed on to start? Probably not. Gethin Jenkins has toured more than Ian McGeeghan! But he's not a natural leader for me. Robshaw hasn't toured. Rory Best? Has toured (I think?) but maybe not as his best (literally!) either. Who are the captain candidates from Scotland (sorry not being deliberately antagonistic, just can't think off the top of my head!) - Kelly Brown? Has he toured before?

It's a toughie, but for me the 'been there and done it' thing is a big factor so I'd go for BOD or OConnell. Probably O'Connell as he's come back into form lately and so can justify a place in the team (although the OC position is not exactly brimming with competition for BOD).

Sam has only come back into form when the captaincy was stripped (I know he had it in the last game) and should just be allowed to play. A good player, but I don't think people outside Wales see (or want to see) his qualities sometimes.

ChequeredJersey wrote:True that. It is bloody awful. We could make an awful haircut Lions 15

That could be contentious - one man's 'soccer rocker' is another man's pride and joy!

As opposed to the non-contentious Lions threads we have now?

ChequeredJersey wrote:As opposed to the non-contentious Lions threads we have now?

Excellent point - the haircut thread will mirror the squad selection thread nicely I suspect!

If we're talking haircuts then it's Marler for Captain.

It would be difficult to top 'Happy Sausage'.

If true wrong decision for me.

Not the best 7 (Tupuric).
Not sure if he is the best available 6, think I would rather have Brown (a 100% fit Lydiate would have been my first choice) with SW on the bench
Previous record against Aus as captain is poor.
No Lions experience
Agree with others that the Lions would benefit from a more 'drag by the scruff of the neck, backs against the wall type captain' like POC or even BOD.
Think Gatland is making a rod for his own back with what was already going to be a Welsh bias in terms of numbers (justifiably) and can't help but draw parallels with SCW in '05.

I rate him as a player and think he will become a truly great player and captain in time but as proven before the last 2 games in the 6N he's not there yet. Should be left to concentrate on his own game.

However, if that is in fact WG's choice then I will support him and the team anyway as first and foremost I'm a Lions supporter.

When it was announced that Gatland was to be head coach of the Lions. It was pretty obvious that Warburton, was the first name in Gatlands mind for the Captains arm band.

Should Warburton be Captain? NO. in my honest opinion he should not. He either goes missing in big games, or he gets injured before or during the game and does not finish the game off.

Who should be Captain? be fore the final week end of the 6ns, i would of said Either Robshaw, or Heaslip....Since Paul Oconnel has returned and won Man of the Match ( forgot who they played now) think is was Quins? He as been mentioned alot.

I really cannot think of any other player who is good enough to take the Captains slot.

I do think/believe that the Captain will either be Warburton, Robshaw, O'connel, O'driscol, Heaslip.

Any of those 5 and in that order.

I'm very much in favour of having an overall tour captain, and then a captain of the Test side who is chosen after the strongest possible 15 is put out

O'Connell or BOD would make good tour captains with a decent chance of being in the Test side, if they aren't playing then someone like Warburton, Best etc could be Test captain

majesticimperialman wrote:When it was announced that Gatland was to be head coach of the Lions. It was pretty obvious that Warburton, was the first name in Gatlands mind for the Captains arm band.

Should Warburton be Captain? NO. in my honest opinion he should not. He either goes missing in big games, or he gets injured before or during the game and does not finish the game off.

Who should be Captain? be fore the final week end of the 6ns, i would of said Either Robshaw, or Heaslip....Since Paul Oconnel has returned and won Man of the Match ( forgot who they played now) think is was Quins? He as been mentioned alot.

I really cannot think of any other player who is good enough to take the Captains slot.

I do think/believe that the Captain will either be Warburton, Robshaw, O'connel, O'driscol, Heaslip.

Any of those 5 and in that order.

ignoring the fact you have set aside the welshman for two irishmen and an englishman as a pure coincidence, the problem with this argument is that the last game of the 6 nations was crucial because it was THE big event with everything riding on it, just like a Lions Test.

Warbs not only didn't go missing on this huge stage he played with aplomb and was devastating to the english breakdown. I have doubts over him as Capt and feel he is best left to his own job and i have doubts he is either abrasive or outspoken enough to lead the Lions, but the suggestion that potential injury should be a detractor is plain stupid.

As for the names mooted...Heaslip? While ireland went into meltdown he was bigging his own game up when in truth he has gone totally absent this term, and in the shadow of BOD his captiancy was always somewhat impotent and symbolic. POC...? seriously off 1 game he is now the solution. When did he last play a test?

And Robshaw, well that is where your comment about before the last game of the 6 Nations is really valid, had eng won then he would have got the spoils and been a falry safe bet, but yet again they didn't and he lead the way, on the big day he was outclassed, outgunned and out played by Tips and Warbs. He is barely an Eng capt yet and no way is he ready to lead the best of the best.

IMHO the best solution is BOD but if one player is a concern about his fitness then it is him.

IMHO the best solution is BOD but if one player is a concern about his fitness then it is him.

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Even though that i did pick O'driscoll has a potential Captain for the Lions, i still do not think he will go.....However i would love to be proved wrong.

Triangulation wrote:Warburton blaming Preistland for Wales losing a Test Match

" With just over a minute left on the clock, fly-half Rhys Priestland booted the ball down field and that ultimately led to Australia earning the penalty which super-sub Mike Harris landed to snatch a 25-23 victory.
“The plan was to keep the ball,” revealed skipper Warburton.
“When the ball was kicked, I remember Ryan Jones shouting ‘No’ at the top of his voice.
“It wasn’t what the forwards were planning. Just a little bit of composure and patience was what was needed.
“I thought we had learned the lessons of that when we lost against the Barbarians last summer.
“As captain, I remember saying to myself that I wouldn’t let that happen again. But it has, so obviously the message wasn’t clear enough.”
Flanker Warburton continued: “It’s a difficult one, because there’s still the chance of the referee penalising us for sealing off and it was still within kicking range.
“So I can understand why the backs might have wanted to kick it. But from a forward point of view, I would have wanted us to back our contact skills and keep the ball.
“We’ve done that successfully before, like when you are trying to see sin-bins out. So we can do it.
“Hindsight is a great thing, but that’s what we should have done.”

Interestingly enough, I can't see one quote from him there where he directly blames Priestland. Really, he is also blaming whoever passed the ball out as well as the kicker and the fact that the forwards didn't take ownership of the ball. It shouldn't take a captain to tell his players to tighten up whilst they are in play with the clock near red, that should be basics.

Triangulation wrote:3. He declined welsh captaincy vs France "to concentrate on his own game". That is not the action of a true leader.

Any proof of this? He didn't decline captaincy, he wanted it but the decision was made by Howley to let him concentrate on his own game. I know you are probably on the wind up a bit, but that's a load of tosh. What's he supposed to do? Throw his toys out of the pram and say I won't play unless I am captain?

This Lions tour could end up being the worst ever. Mind you, with the comments on here, it's what the some "fans" deserve. I know it's only a pretty big minority but it seems like Welsh fans won't support any player from another nation.

For what it's worth I would probably give it to POC or BOD, but I wouldn't mind if Robshaw or Warburton was captain either, as the key words that most people keep forgetting about is the role is "tour captain". So whoever is in the role, isn't a cert to start. That's absolutely the most sensible decision Gatland could make, as no player can afford to think they're guaranteed to start and of course, it gives Gatland further opportunity to see how certain players react to Lions captaincy in the warm up games.

Triangulation wrote:Warburton is not the right choice for several reasons, 5 of the best as follows:

1. After one of wales' many losses to oz he publicly blamed Preistland. That is not taking collective responsibility. That is not leadership. If words have to be had - do it in private. Captaincy 101 fail right there.

2. He plays in the back row which is far and away our most competetive area for selection. He is not even in my 1st XV but on bench.

3. He declined welsh captaincy vs France "to concentrate on his own game". That is not the action of a true leader.

4. He is welsh. The Lions should if possible have an Irish captain to balance things. POC would be my choice.

5. He captained wales to a bunch of losses vs Oz and wont be feared or even particularly respected by the wallabies.

Biggest lot of bias poo I have read for a long time.

How intelligent of him to recognise he needed to get his own game up to par before taking on the leadership role.

If Warburton didn't think he was ready to lead the taffs then he's hardly Lions material is he? It's a massive step up. Welshies don't make very good tourists either as they tend to get homesick.

Doesn't anyone remember that POC was a terrible captain last time out. He only started speaking to the ref in the 'dead' third test. I don't think Warburton should be captain, he plays much better without the burden of captaincy. I would pick Robshaw as captain.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:If Warburton didn't think he was ready to lead the taffs then he's hardly Lions material is he? It's a massive step up. Welshies don't make very good tourists either as they tend to get homesick.

There again far better to be homesick rather than get kicked out of countries:)

Good choice. Warburton will be a fine captain. There are very likely to be plenty of other good leaders around him too.

funnyExiledScot wrote:It depends on how Gatland feels. He knows all the main candidates well, and has toured with them before.

He shouldn't start fretting about what other people may think about Welsh bias - he should just pick the best team and captain as he sees it.

POC is a decent contender, but there's a fair debate to be had as to whether he's good enough for the XV, as there is with Warburton. If you go down the "tour captain" route, then I suppose that also brings BOD into the reckoning as well. Not that all three may not make the XV, I just suspect that Gatland may want to avoid fettering his discretion to pick the XV down the line, should the form of these individuals not hold up.

Is Robshaw not a main candidate?

I agree that the Lions have always been the coach's selection rather than necessarily be the "best" individuals. What does it matter if two player's are close to being selected? If the decision is hard then there can't be much between them and therefore it doesn't matter very much which one the coach picks. Of course if the team loses them all those hindsight pundits who tossed a coin before the game will suddenly point out how the coach got it wrong and how they had always advocated X over Y.

Warburton has had more influence than anyone else in Gatland getting the coaching gig by leading a successful Wales, so the chances are that Gatland will repay him with the Lion's captaincy.

Where do you put Robshaw though? Tipuric for my mind has played himself into the 7 shirt. Robshaw does not offer what SOB has in abundance - carrying power and pilfering abilities. So where does Robshaw play? I don't think he's suited at 7 and his other and better option at 6 is blocked by SOB.

The same applies to Warburton in my view. The only thing he has going for him is his combination with Tipuric and Faletau and that is the combination I think Gatland will go with even though I think SOB is better suited at 6 than Warburton. I fear though SOB will be on the bench and used as an impact player.

It's such a hard task picking the right balance and the captaincy issue I think is going to sway Gatland's opinion on making that balance. If Warburton is picked it's because of the players picked around him and the captaincy is a determining factor in that whereas it should be because he is your best player. I think SOB is the Lions' best 6 but combinations stand against him.

If Gatland is picking a squad captain who may or may not play the tests, then BOD or POC would be ideal choices IMO. If, however,he wants to pick his captain with a view to that man leading out the team in the 1st test, then Warbs is as good a choice as any i reckon. The only "nailed on" starters for me at the mo (if such a thing exists!)are Adam Jones, George North and Leigh !/2P, none of whom are captains. Warbs is quality at 6 or 7 and Gatland likes, knows and respects him. Whoever is named as the skipper though, i hope we can all put the BS behind us and support the Lions as a squad not made up of Welsh, English, Scottish and Irish men, but as a British and Irish band of brothers. When 4 become 1! Bring it on!!!!

Norfolklass wrote:Doesn't anyone remember that POC was a terrible captain last time out. He only started speaking to the ref in the 'dead' third test. I don't think Warburton should be captain, he plays much better without the burden of captaincy. I would pick Robshaw as captain.

After the tour in 2009 Martyn Williams said that POC was the best captain he's ever played under. He was under no pressure to make a statement like that. That series wasn't lost because of POC captaincy, more to do with the selection in the first test.

Warburton isn't playing as well as Tipuric at open-side and I don't think he's anywhere near as good a blind-side as Wood, Brown or O'Brien.

I don't believe Gatland will make him captain, it's potentially too decisive a move.

What kind of message does that send out to the other flankers who are arguably in better form before the tour has even left? I will find a space for him in the test team even if he's not good enough to be first choice in his position.

I hope he names BOD as captain, he's done it all before and is one of the greatest players of all time. Either he'll make the test team or be broken and then Gatland can name someone to lead the test team based on tour form.

And if Warburton goes on tour and is outstanding then I wouldn't have a problem with him being captain in O'Driscoll's absence.

Also think one of Warburton, Robshaw and Brown will miss out on the squad. On form I think it should be Warburton but I think it's more likely to be Brown.

if warbs is captain then Gatland will go for Warbs Lydiate and Toby .On the web it was said that in last nigts game Lydiate tackled his self to a stand still he is well on his way back.As Gatland as always rated that combination and as one pundit said if you want the best out of Warbs you have to play Lydiate.And i,m not Welsh.