The Lions Squad , No selection debates. Only tactics/Combinations/startingXVs

First topic message reminder :

LIONS SQUAD
Full-backs: Leigh Halfpenny, Stuart Hogg, Rob Kearney
Wings: Tommy Bowe, Sean Maitland, George North, Alex Cuthbert
Centres: Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Brian O'Driscoll, Manu Tuilagi
Fly-halves: Owen Farrell, Jonathan Sexton
Scrum-halves: Mike Phillips, Ben Youngs, Conor Murray
Props: Cian Healy, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Matt Stevens, Mako Vunipola, Gethin Jenkins
Hookers: Dylan Hartley, Richard Hibbard, Tom Youngs
Locks: Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O'Connell, Geoff Parling, Richie Gray, Ian Evans
Back row: Toby Faletau, Jamie Heaslip, Dan Lydiate, Sean O'Brien, Justin Tipuric, Tom Croft, Sam Warburton

Quite simply this is what you have to work with. Who would start your first game/test? Assume that Warburton earns his place in the starting XV ... somehow.

We are now United

Healy Hibbard Jones
Evans POC
Lydiate Faletau Warburton

Youngs Sexton

Maitland BOD Tuilagi Cuthbert

Halfpenny

Barring injuries, I'd like to see...

Healy
Hibbard
Jones
POC
Parling
SOB/Croft
Tips/Warb
Heaslip
Youngs
Sexton
Cuthbert
BOD
Manu/JD2
Bowe
Halfp

Damn forgot about Bowe would pick him instead of Maitland

I'd play

Test:

15- Hogg
14- Halfpenny
13- Tuilagi
12- BOD
11- North
10- Sexton
9- Youngs
8- Faletau
7- Warburton (has to start as he is captain. If he weren't I'd start Tipuric)
6- SOB
5- POC
4- Evans
3- Jones
2- Hibbard
1- Healy

Bench- Jenkins, Hartley, Cole, Gray, Croft, Phillips, Farrell, Bowe

The make up of this team is really odd. Australia are really known for their pace and attacking flair yet both Jamie Roberts and BoD are very slow these days. Jonathan Davies is prone to errors, while Manu Tuilagi, lacks tactical awareness, and provided you tackle him to ground quickly and he doesn't get over the gain line, he is next to useless. He doesn't spot over laps and can't draw a man and pass.

Fly half is probably worse again, first we have an erratic Irish fly half, who is average, then superb but has been out injured a long time. Then we have a kid who has bottled it in every major pressurised game he has played this season! A poor second behind Wilkinson in Europe and seemed incapable of kicking a simple goal in front of the posts in Cardiff.

I say that now of course but to be fair Gatland is generally a brilliant judge of player and nearly always gets his selections right. The only mistake he makes is opening his mouth about the opposition, which hopefully he won't do.

Some players are really going to have to step up. This is the team I'd go for.

15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Tommy Bowe
13 Brian O'Driscoll
12 Jamie Roberts
11 George North
10 Johnny Sexton
9 Mike Phillips
8 Toby Faletau
7 Justin Tipuric
6 Sam Warburton
5 Ian Evans
4 Paul O'Connell
3 Adam Jones
2 Richard Hibbard
1 Gethin Jenkins

16 Stuart Hogg
17 Owen Farrell
18 Ben Youngs
19 Sean O'Brien
20 Alun Wyn Jones
21 Matt Stevens
22 Dylan Hartley
23 Mako Vunipola

We'll know more when the players go out there, very often players you expect to start lose form and others step up and enhance their reputations.

I said yesterday I would post when I have caught my breath and calmed down after the bitter disapointment of the announcement yesterday.

So my XXIII and tactics.

1. Healy
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. POC
6. Warburton (C)
7. Tipuric
8. Faleteu
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. Bowe
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Maitland
15. Halfpenny

16. Youngs
17. Jenkins
18. Cole
19. Parling
20. SOB
21. Phillips
22. Farrell
23. Hogg

Bish bash bosh won't work against Australia, as Wales have aptly demonstrated. France spearheaded by Fofana, Clerc et al exposed their weakness against fleet footed attacking. That is where I would try to win the game.

Lets forget the lumbering monstrosities in the back and win this one with Guile rather than big meaty backs.

Lets dominate up front with our mobile but phyisical pack and use Youngs quick service to let Sexton put the likes of Roberts, Maitland, Bowe, BOD and Halfpenny into space. Run them ragged an then bring in Phillips to take advantage of sloppy and tired defenders at the fringes of the rucks while Hogg punishes lazy kicking with electric broken field running as the game closes out....

Today at 13:38
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15 Hogg
14 Bowe
11 North

13 Tualagi
12 BOD

10 Sexton
9 Phillips

8 Faletau
7 Warburton
6 Tipuric

5 POC
4 Gray

3 Jones
2 Hibbard
1 Healy

1. Healy
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. POC
5. Evans
6. Warburton (C)
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. JD2
13. BOD
14. Halfpenny
15. Hogg

16. Jenkins
17. Youngs
18. Jones
19. Gray
20. SOB
21. Phillips
22. Farrell
23. Maitland/Bowe

1 Healy
2 Hibbard
3 Jones
4 Parling
5 Evans
6 Croft
7 Warburton
8 Faletau

9 Youngs
10 Sexton
11 North
12 Tuilagi
13 O'Driscoll
14 Maitland
15 Halfpenny

16- Vunipola
17- Hartley
18- Cole
19 - Gray
20 - O'Brien
21- Phillips
22- Farrell
23- Bowe

Healy
Hibbard
Jones
O'Connell
Evans
Lydiate (if proves full match fitness during early tour games)
Tupuric Warbuton (only because he's been named captain)
Faletau (would prefer Heaslip if he can discover his 2009 Lions form in the early tour games)
Youngs.B
Sexton
North
Roberts
O'Driscoll
Halfpenny
Hogg

Youngs.T
Jenkins
Cole
Grey
O'Brien
Phillips
Farrell
Maitland

This list of names thing is getting a bit boring. Much more importantly than the issue of selections, did you know that an anagram of 'Warbuton is Gatland's lovechild' is 'Vandalistic, bull-nosed wart hog'?

No, don't thank me.

George Carlin wrote:This list of names thing is getting a bit boring. Much more importantly than the issue of selections, did you know that an anagram of 'Warbuton is Gatland's lovechild' is 'Vandalistic, bull-nosed wart hog'?

No, don't thank me.

Why do you know that?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

George Carlin wrote:This list of names thing is getting a bit boring. Much more importantly than the issue of selections, did you know that an anagram of 'Warbuton is Gatland's lovechild' is 'Vandalistic, bull-nosed wart hog'?

No, don't thank me.

Why do you know that?

Because it's funny.

An anagram of Sam Warburton is "brown traumas"...



augurs well!

And "dan lydiate sam warburton flank"

Becomes "Unkindly, fat, adorable straw man"

Coincidence? I think not

What about "rat and wangler" - now who could that be?

Nice to see all the neurotic anglos fully behind the Lions

According to this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22372745

Most of the team for the first game (v Barbarians in HK) will be Welsh, because they're not involved in end of season competitions!

This is like saying all the best players, who play for the best clubs, can't play in the first test as they're involved in Finals.

I think the entire Lions tour rests on who they pick at scrum half. Barring injuries you can put together a team from what Gatland selected that can beat Aus, and many of you have done so above. But crucially Phillips can't start the tests. I really mean that. I rate Phillips hugely, has broken Irish hearts many times, but Youngs is essential to beat Australia. Not because Youngs is amazing or anything, but of the scrumhalves selected he has the fastest pass. And that is crucial if we have any chance of using our bosh merchants. They need time to get their head of steam up and if that isn't given by Youngs, I am not sure who else can supply it (Murray can do this 5% of the time maybe) If we have no Injuries elsewhere and play Youngs, I think we can win 2-3 tests. Without Youngs maybe win 1 test. Without Youngs and an injury to Sexton, we will be slaughtered.

15 Leigh Halfpenny (Wales)
14 Tommy Bowe (Ireland)
13 Manu Tuilagi (England)
12 Jamie Roberts (Wales)
11 George North (Wales)
10 Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
9 Mike Phillips (Wales)

1 Gethin Jenkins (Wales)
2 Richard Hibbard (Wales)
3 Adam Jones (Wales)
4 Alun-Wyn Jones (Wales)
5 Richie Gray (Scotland)
6 Sean O'Brien (Ireland)
8 Toby Faletau (Wales)
7 Sam Warburton (Wales, captain)

RubyGuby wrote:Nice to see all the neurotic anglos fully behind the Lions

Who could fail to get behind a front row of:

Vain puma look

Try a hand... Yell!

Vet tests man

Interesting article in the irish times: At 6 ft 3 and a shade over 15 stone, Tommy Bowe is the lightest winger in the lions squad. That says something about Gat's approach in itself!

Would have put Maitland at lighter than that. Also Halfpenny could be a winger

Scots have a higher muscle density..its from eating porridge.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Scots have a higher muscle density..its from eating porridge.

So why is Maitland heavier than he looks?

So your telling me Bill Roche is going to put on weight...

ChequeredJersey wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Scots have a higher muscle density..its from eating porridge.

So why is Maitland heavier than he looks?

Simply, Muscle weighs more than fat ..hence a smaller guy can be heavier than the guy who is wearing a jersey two sizes larger.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Scots have a higher muscle density..its from eating porridge.

So why is Maitland heavier than he looks?

He keeps all the coins he picks up from the street in a belt that he's never parted from. Moving to Glasgow arrested the alarming decline in his pace but it's rumoured the Aussies are prepared to spread up to 30 dollars worth of change in the vicinity of the Lions' hotels.

I don't think the Lions stood much chance of winning the series whoever was selected. The 6N showed sides and players that might have an advantage in the forwards (though nothing beyond what the Aussies have dealt with before), but were a fair bit behind in their back play.

The disappointing thing about the squad for me is what the sum of the selections confirms about how they are likely to play, not giving the spectators the sort of rugby they would hope to cheer on.

To that end, as a bit of fun I've highlighted an unlikely XV from the squad that also wouldn't win, but that is more inclined to the sort of rugby I'd prefer to see in a showcase against the Australians.


Healy
Youngs
Cole
Gray
O'Connell
Croft
O'Brien
Faletau
Youngs
Sexton
Halfpenny
Tuilagi
O'Driscoll
Maitland
Hogg

Will be interesting to see how Gray, Croft, Lydiate and Bowe get on, in that order. Gats clearly rates these guys considering their injuries.

My 23 on what I have to work with:

1. Healy
2. Hibbard
3. A Jones
4. AWJ (Gray if he finds form)
5. POC
6. SOB
7. Warburton (although ideally I'd have Tipuric)
8. Faletau

9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Maitland (Bowe if he can prove himself)
15. Hogg

16. Youngs
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Evans, regardless of starting no.4
20. Tipuric
21. Phillips
22. Farrell...
23. Halfpenny

1
Now that Best has been overlooked we may as well just go for absolute scrum dominance in the front row, although Healy has terrorised Australia in the past, if anyone has been watching Leinster this year, they will know that Healy is easily the best ball-carrying front row in the NH, is powerful at the breakdown and is probably Ireland's strongest tackler, both in workrate and efficiency. I don't wish to appear one-eyed but I don't really see what Jenkins brings to the table over Healy.

2,3
Hibbard and Jones know each other well and will form a formidable scrummage, neither are two flashy but all in all, all 3 front rowers are very easy picks after the squad announcement. Vunipola and Cole are subs for their impact.

4,5
If POC maintains his form in the warm-up tests he starts, there is no real debate other than him being the vice-captain. Him and Gray would be an absolutely monstrous combination at the lineout, but AWJ is in pole position at the moment and offers even more grunt in the scrum. Ian Evans is not far off however, a really athletic player who I rate higher than AWJ, but is unfortunate to be behind the currently fire-breathing O'Connell.

7,8
The back row is quite a tactical selection. I'll get the easy one out of the way, there must be at least one solid line-out option, Heaslip or Croft is the best man here but Faletau is more than competent. Faletau impresses me every time I see him and he will suit the Aussie soil. Warburton and Tipuric are relatively similar players, although I feel Tipuric is more of a threat ball in hand but Warburton will start. In fairness to Warbs his form certainly picked up at the end of the 6N, for me this was enough to get him on the plane, but not quite enough for captaincy. I digress, best of luck to him.

6
SOB has to start for me. Everybody knows that in 2011 he was phenomenal. I admit that he isn't quite in the same spectacular vein of form this time round, however he was Ireland's best player in the 6N by a considerable distance, and whilst for both club and country he hasn't been utilised as best possibly, he has shown his other qualities that are often underestimated, look at his series of turnovers in 2012 H-Cup Final or 23 tackles against Wales this year. I feel he contributes much more all round than Lydiate or Croft, IMO he has the all-round game of a Robshaw or Brown but then has his ball-carrying as well. With a genuine openside beside him in Warburton, he could be absolutely devasating, also having previous success against the Aussies. As part of a balanced back row I think he could be devastating.

9
For me, scrum-half is the weakest position in the squad, as there is no standout contender. Youngs is quick but can sometimes lack discipline, Phillips can be effective but has his limitations, whilst IMO Murray is quite solid all-round but has the tendency to throw in a shocker once in a while. For this reason I think the SH berth comes down to tactics. And with Sexton the undisputed choice at 10, who is so adept at creating space on quick ball, Youngs has to be the man to form that partnership.


10
Barring injuries Jonny Sexton has had his best season IMO to date, his attack, defence, goalkicking and distribution is all top class, open play kicking perhaps being his sole weakness. He also has leadership skills and for your information (that acronym is too irritating) he would be my choice as Ireland and Leinster captain.
Perhaps I have over-reacted to the last couple of months but I loathe to see Farrell on that bench. I genuinely don't see where any of his strengths lie, even his goalkicking is slightly overhyped. It would be nice to have Wilko to close out a game or even Madigan to provide cover and inject some life into the the mid-week side, but Farrell was always going to go. I would only bring him on if Sexton is having a poor day with the boot.

12,13
The inside-centre is also an area of weakness as far as I am concerned. Again magic-man Madigan could have helped out here and I would like to have seen Davies experimented at 12 for Wales but as it stands Roberts is a fairly concrete choice. I do feel that he was one of the main beneficiaries from the Wales-England game, but he will not let anyone down, and of course fingers crossed could re-ignite the partnership with BOD.
BOD has dashed any claims that he is past it, the key is keeping him sharp as the last couple of weeks have proved, and when that is the case I honestly believe he is still almost as good as he ever was. Tuilagi has lost form at the crucial time, whilst being similar to SOB in the weapon factor, a back needs more all-round skills than a forward.

11,14
North starts for me, and whilst his recent form has not been his absolute best, he is one of those players who can ignite at any time. His all-round skills are very good and he is one "basher" that I can allow. Still, it would have been nice to see Zebo in the squad, considering his fantastic season and his hidden ability to cover full-back.
The other wing is a tough choice, I think Bowe and Cuthbert are both proven finishers whilst Maitland quite simply has no weakness. If Bowe can prove he's up to Test pace, I think he's marginally the most proficient of the three, and also was strong on the last tour.

15
Halfpenny is probably a better full-back than Hogg. Nevertheless, after intial sceptism I have come round to the idea of Stuart starting. His pace and creativity is exactly what the Lions need, and has anyone seen his spiral kicking?
Thing of beauty. Halfpenny on the bench for utility, reliablity and goalkicking option.
Kearney has returned to decent form with Leinster, but it is too little too late, despite still being my favourite of the three when on form. In fact he is a little lucky to be on the plane, considering the number Zebo did on him a few weeks back.

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Now that the dust has settled, I am still frustrated with a couple of Gatland's individual selections, but what worries me more is just two 10s and a lack of excitement in the backs. It also would have been nice to have a young bolter, I don't see what harm it would have done by increasing the squad size to 37 or 38.

theslosty's picks for Lions stardom:

1. Stuart Hogg
2. Sean O'Brien
3. Toby Faletau
4. Cian Healy
5. Jonny Sexton

The only way we are going to beat the Aussies with the mish mash of players and limited preparation time is a simple, direct game plan. So it is going to be kick and chase and a huge pack effort.

The Aussies struggle at the scrum unless the referee lets them constantly infringe. So the front row need to hold the scrum up so that we can actually have a contest and not let it descend into a referee induced penalty lottery.

The backrow needs to be cohesive and mobile.

The second row need to be strong in the scrum and good at the lineout to cover the lack of lineout presence in the backrow.

So Jenkins, Hibbard and Jones, POC and Evans, Warbuton, Tipuric and Faletau. The subs coming off the bench will need more mobility, so the likes of Healy, Youngs, Cole, Parling and Croft will have a big role to play.

I think we will see a big strong backline that will try to be good defensively, get over the gainline with Roberts and North, with a good kick chase game. So Youngs and Sexton to kick, Roberts to try and crash over the gain line, O'Driscoll for a bit of class, North and Bowe with Halfpenny to kick the points.

People keep saying that the bish, bash, bosh approach won't work, but it is the Lions best chance - try and dominate up front and put the Aussies under pressure and hope we kick our penalties. I predict a rerun of 1989 with the Lions to win 2-1. In 1989 it was basically an English pack that won the series, this time it is the turn of the Welsh. I am English and have no problem with a pack comprised of 7 Welsh players and 1 Irishman - they are the best starting 8 for me.

nlpnlp wrote:The only way we are going to beat the Aussies with the mish mash of players and limited preparation time is a simple, direct game plan. So it is going to be kick and chase and a huge pack effort.

The Aussies struggle at the scrum unless the referee lets them constantly infringe. So the front row need to hold the scrum up so that we can actually have a contest and not let it descend into a referee induced penalty lottery.

The backrow needs to be cohesive and mobile.

The second row need to be strong in the scrum and good at the lineout to cover the lack of lineout presence in the backrow.

So Jenkins, Hibbard and Jones, POC and Evans, Warbuton, Tipuric and Faletau. The subs coming off the bench will need more mobility, so the likes of Healy, Youngs, Cole, Parling and Croft will have a big role to play.

I think we will see a big strong backline that will try to be good defensively, get over the gainline with Roberts and North, with a good kick chase game. So Youngs and Sexton to kick, Roberts to try and crash over the gain line, O'Driscoll for a bit of class, North and Bowe with Halfpenny to kick the points.

People keep saying that the bish, bash, bosh approach won't work, but it is the Lions best chance - try and dominate up front and put the Aussies under pressure and hope we kick our penalties. I predict a rerun of 1989 with the Lions to win 2-1. In 1989 it was basically an English pack that won the series, this time it is the turn of the Welsh. I am English and have no problem with a pack comprised of 7 Welsh players and 1 Irishman - they are the best starting 8 for me.

Limited prep time!!
Gatland and Co have almost 2 months before the first test that's going to be a lot more than Oz............ if we follow the mish mash bish bash approach we will get trounced on the hard pitches

If we try to play bish,bosh, bash rugby against Aus I fear we will get dominated as they are very clever in defence, isolating predictable runners and then letting their back-row tear you apart on the deck. For that reason I want to see our centre partnership based around distribution and keeping the Aus defence guessing then use Healy, O'Brien, North, Bowe, etc as our big, physical runners when needed. As such:

1.Healy
2.Hibbard - What I wouldn't give for Best but Hibbard is a good player.
3.Jones
4.Gray
5.POC
6.SOB
7.Warburton - would've been Tipuric but Warbs is captain so...
8.Faletau

9.Youngs
10.Sexton

11.North
12.Davies - I'd happily see Roberts there if he gets back to full form
13.BOD
14.Bowe
15.Halfpenny

16.Youngs
17.Jenkins - Would've liked to be able to name Sheridan there for real scrummaging power in second half, Jenks is good player in the loose to bring on later in the game though.
18.Cole
19.Wyn Jones
20.Croft
21.Phillips
22.Farrell
23.Hogg

1. Healy
2. Hibbard
3. Cole
4. Gray
5. O'Connell
6. Croft
7. Warburton
8. Falateu
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. O'Driscoll
13. Tuilagi
14. Bowe/Maitland - dependant on Bowe's fitness
15. Hogg/Kearney

16. Youngs/Hartley
17. Jenkins
18. Jones
19. Wyn Jones
20. O'Brien
21. Phillips
22. Farrell
23. Halfpenny