My take on the Lions squad.

First topic message reminder :

Missed the chat as I had to work (Yeah I know that is unbelieveable), so I had a quick squiz over the selections.

Not surprised at seeing the Welsh starters there, but two ommssions glares at you from the monitor.

NO Rory Best, I would love to know how he is overlooked. a 67 match veteran and Gatland decides to leave him at home?

You can almost bet your bottom dollar that Stephen Moore will be the Wallalby hooker, so you want an experienced campaigner to take him on, and when you consider Healy who in my book is the best loose head prop in the home nations is in the squad you would think that it is only common sense to pair him up with Best. Hibbard has not been a regular starter for Wales and has a third of the test experience Best has, Hartley has discipline problems half the time and isn't even in the class of Best.


I think Robshaw is rather unlucky as well.

It is understandable that Gatland has decided to focus most of his squad on Welsh players, in fact most coaches will go with the players they know best and beleive in the most.

Depending on selection it seems the starting 15 might be heavily weighted towards wales which in my humble opinion will not be the way to go.

Wales have had more than enough shots at australia without success, at this point in time I can really only see 4 or so players that Gatland is going to put in his starting XV that will not be welsh.

I don't know we'll have to wait for the first test match.

The only two that are not welsh that I can see Gatland will select at this point in time is Jonny Sexton and Cian Healy.

I definitely think Gatland has misses a trick with making Warburton captain, I don't think he is one of the better back rowers in the home unions and being captain means he must play.

weird.

We all knew there was going to be a strong Welsh contingent as soon as Gatland was named coach, similar to when SCW got job in 05.

IMO if theres a tight call between players coaches will always go for the player they 'know' best through have had previous experience.

To get away from the National allegiance there needs to be a truly neutral coach at the helm but that very seldom happens.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/british-irish-lions-2013-warren-3309721

Warren Gatland admitted that Wales’ crushing 30-3 Six Nations victory over England had played a pivotal role in his eventual Lions selection.

The New Zealander described the encounter as perfect for testing players’ reactions under intense pressure, and revealed that in some circumstances, the coin flipped from English to Welsh.

Gatland said: “I couldn’t have asked any more from that game in terms of the intensity.

“For some players in that game the coin flipped from one side to another on their performance that day.

“For a lot of the Welsh players, I thought you could see how much they had learned in the six to 12 months before the game in terms of performing under pressure.

“They had been involved in a lot of narrow defeats against Australia in unfortunate circumstances.

“I couldn’t have asked for any more of the atmosphere that day either.

“It was the most intense I’ve see in the northern hemisphere since I’ve been here.”

Gatland faced more questions on who hadn’t made his final party than those who had, with the absence of Jonny Wilkinson at the forefront of the conversation.

He confessed he had wanted to take the World Cup winner, but was forced to change that plan after speaking with Wilkinson on the phone.

“I rang him and asked if he was available and he wasn’t available,” Gatland explained.

“I told him we wanted everyone on the plane to fly to Hong Kong but he said he couldn’t make that commitment because of Toulon. He appreciated the call but said he was struggling to manage his body week to week.

“I think physically he would have struggled on tour.

“We’ve always had him in the back of our minds as someone who could potentially go.

“But he’s not available and he may even need an operation in the close season as well.

“Saying that, there was no yes or no from him, and if we pick up an injury we will maybe have another discussion at that point.

“We could have taken three 10s and maybe there is a bit of a risk there.

“But it is such a pivotal position that we want the 10s to get some games under their belts so they are not underdone for the Tests.

“By the time of the first Test the first-choice 10 we want to have played three or four games.

“Owen Farrell by his own standards didn’t have the greatest game (for Saracens against Toulon) last weekend, but we have been impressed with his maturity and composure in the last year or so.

“Jonny had a big influence on that game, but neither team played much rugby.

“With any player when things don’t go right it’s how you respond. That game will make Owen a stronger individual.

“He is someone who, when he has a poor game doesn’t dwell on it, he responds well.”



In terms of his decision on the captaincy, Gatland made it clear that he has no doubt Sam Warburton is the man to do the job.

He said: “It wasn’t a decision that was made until reasonably recently.

“He is somebody I have worked with and I respect the job he has done for Wales at the World Cup and with the Grand Slam last year. He’s a young man with an old head.

“He was Wales captain for the Six Nations, but got injured for the game against France and came back for the last two games.

“One thing I admire about Sam is that if he was a selfish guy he would have just taken the captaincy back at that point.

“But it wasn’t about him, it was about the team and he felt Ryan Jones was doing a good job and just wanted to come back and play.

“Sam is a quiet man who also leads from the front. I think he will do a brilliant job.”

While Warburton got the nod as skipper, Gatland admitted he had considered the two main Irish contenders – Paul O’Connell and Brian O’Driscoll.

“The way O’Connell played against Harlequins was great and, by all accounts in the game against Clermont last weekend, he was struggling with a groin injury,” Gatland went on.

“You admire Munster’s tenacity but the scoreline (16-10 to Clermont) flattered them.

“Paul and Brian were considered (for the captaincy) but if I was picking a Test side tomorrow Sam Warburton would be in that side, whether it be at six or seven.

“With a number of other players, they are going to have to fight for positions.”

One player once mooted for the captaincy was England’s Chris Robshaw, but he was a shock omission from the squad and Gatland did his best to offer some verbal consolation. He explained: “It was a really tough decision with Chris, but we have gone for two genuine sevens in that position in Tipuric and Warburton.

“We know Chris can play in other positions, but Sean O’Brien has been outstanding for Ireland as well.

“I admire Chris hugely for what he’s done for England, for his leadership and because of just how hard he tries.

“When Harlequins didn’t play that well against Munster a few weeks ago he was the one guy who put his body on the line.

“He has to consider himself unlucky. It was a hard decision to make.”

Asked if he had a Test side already down on paper, Gatland replied: “No I don’t. Look, all of us in this room at the moment, if we asked to pick a Test side would come up with something different.

“I have an idea what it might look like, but in six weeks or so I’m sure it will be different.

“I want everyone to feel they have a chance to make their case.

“The players that face the Barbarians will probably be made up a lot of Welsh players because they will not have been involved in finals and most will have been in camp.

“Then a lot of players coming back from semi-finals and finals will have to show what they can do and will be at a slight disadvantage.”

Two of Gatland’s front-row selections raised eyebrows – those of hooker Dylan Hartley and prop Matt Stevens, neither of whom were first choice for England in the Six Nations.

But the Kiwi was adamant they warranted inclusion, and that his past spat with Hartley – when he criticised the hooker for speaking out over a suspension given to Welsh scrum-half Richie Rees after an alleged eye-gouging incident ahead of the 2011 Six Nations clash – was ancient history.

He added: “I’ve a lot of respect and time for him though some might be surprised by that.

“I made those comments because I was disappointed with how he might have been advised to speak.

“I said those things but he responded well. After the game I shook his hand and said I had probably gone over the top and he accepted that.

“But he is a very good player and I have always known that.

“We are going to need players who can be good impact players on tour as well – and I think Dylan would be good at that.

“With Matt, the tightheads we had to chose from were similar and we wanted someone who could potentially bring something different.

“Matt is a bit of a ball-player as well and he could put some pressure on Adam Jones and Dan Cole, he’s popular in the team environment and a good tourist.

“I sounded him out about his potential availability a few months ago and he said it was just an honour to be considered.

“He knew there were no guarantees but I have been impressed with the way he has performed for Saracens. Hopefully he can make a real impact on tour.”

Finally, on doubts over Gethin Jenkins’ availability in the event of Toulon making the French Championship final, Gatland kept it simple.

He said: “I have spoken to Gethin, I said ‘are you available to tour?’ and he said he is.”

Bedford - Wales are the leading NH team, In 2005 Wales won the Slam yet SCW took the pensioners on a last merry go round. The welsh players IMO are there on merit as opposed to any bias IMO. I would not have AWJ there but then again I'd be tempted to take Owens - I don't see a bias 15 for the double 6 Nations winners 10 then 9 and 3 respectively - I think a neutral would have called it pretty much the same figures wise.

Bit annoyed reading that as he says Tipuric and Warburton are 2 genuine 7s which suggests to me that Tipuric won't get a start as his captain will. Just think that's harsh as he has been the one in form.

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Re: back row for the lions

by RubyGuby on Mon 25 Feb 2013 - 12:50
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Lydiate will tour no doubt about that .


RubyGuby
Posts: 5124
Join date: 2011-05-31
Location: UK

So basically the test team will be mainly Welsh because the regions are pants.

Owen Farrell will be the fly half.

BOD and POC will be dirt trackers.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit annoyed reading that as he says Tipuric and Warburton are 2 genuine 7s which suggests to me that Tipuric won't get a start as his captain will. Just think that's harsh as he has been the one in form.

Tipuric will get a start in the third test when the Lions have sewn the series up already.

BOD and POC sure to feature in Test team - Regional or Provincial rugby has little to do with International success as Wales and Ireland have shown in different ways

rodders wrote:So basically the test team will be mainly Welsh because the regions are pants.

Owen Farrell will be the fly half.

BOD and POC will be dirt trackers.

Mid weekers or training ground test dummies....

Mid weekers or training ground test dummies....

In that case why wasn't Ashton chosen

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit annoyed reading that as he says Tipuric and Warburton are 2 genuine 7s which suggests to me that Tipuric won't get a start as his captain will. Just think that's harsh as he has been the one in form.

Tipuric will get a start in the third test when the Lions have sewn the series up already.

Hope you're right but it smacks of planning to play someone despite of better performances elsewhere. Hope it comes off but I would also hope that the best selection of players are picked rather than the favourites.

maestegmafia wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/british-irish-lions-2013-warren-3309721

“Paul and Brian were considered (for the captaincy) but if I was picking a Test side tomorrow Sam Warburton would be in that side, whether it be at six or seven.

He explained: “It was a really tough decision with Chris, but we have gone for two genuine sevens in that position in Tipuric and Warburton.

Gatland's brain is addled judging by how he contradicts himself in the same interview - little wonder he resorted to just picking his favourites.

The Great Aukster wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/british-irish-lions-2013-warren-3309721

“Paul and Brian were considered (for the captaincy) but if I was picking a Test side tomorrow Sam Warburton would be in that side, whether it be at six or seven.

He explained: “It was a really tough decision with Chris, but we have gone for two genuine sevens in that position in Tipuric and Warburton.

Gatland's brain is addled judging by how he contradicts himself in the same interview - little wonder he resorted to just picking his favourites.

Didn't see that. Does sound confused!

Next we'll be onto Genuine 13s or Genuine 15s. Halfpenny is only a 14.5 15 really.

This Genuine crap has just gotta stop....genuinely speaking!

It's only to get around the number of people who don't think Robshaw is a...traditional 7.

Whatever Gatland says, some of you will jump on him for it.

Warburton is a genuine openside. That he's also (in Gatland's opinion) capable of playing to Test standard on the blindside doesn't contradict that.

Lions Test XV

1 Jenkins
2 Hibbard
3 Jones
4 Evans
5 Gray
6 Warburton
7 Tipuric
8 Heaslip
9 Phillips
10 Farrell
11 North
12 Davies
13 Tuilagi
14 Bowe
15 Halfpenny

Bench: Healy, Cole, Hartley, O'Connell, O'Brien, Youngs, Sexton, Hogg

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Whatever Gatland says, some of you will jump on him for it.

Warburton is a genuine openside. That he's also (in Gatland's opinion) capable of playing to Test standard on the blindside doesn't contradict that.

Capable yes but has he really been picked to play at 6; probably not. If that's the plan I think there are a fair few better options at 6 than Warburton, and 1 better at 7 that's all.

I do think it's unwise that Gatland has said Warburton will play in the Test side. He's obliged to play him now, even if others play better than him on tour. I don't think he needed to commit himself.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Whatever Gatland says, some of you will jump on him for it.

Warburton is a genuine openside. That he's also (in Gatland's opinion) capable of playing to Test standard on the blindside doesn't contradict that.

Capable yes but has he really been picked to play at 6; probably not. If that's the plan I think there are a fair few better options at 6 than Warburton, and 1 better at 7 that's all.

I genuinely don't know what number Warburton and Tipuric had on their shirts against England.I do know that we put our biggest ever winning margin on them and probably cost Robshaw his place on the trip.Our back row held total sway.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I do think it's unwise that Gatland has said Warburton will play in the Test side. He's obliged to play him now, even if others play better than him on tour. I don't think he needed to commit himself.

Yeah I personally think Tipuric is a better player and would have liked to see him given a chance to claim the 7 shirt,still god knows what the actual team will look like there are bound to be at least 3 or 4 injuries before the Tests.

It strikes me as a determination ( a bloody and stubborn one on the part of Gatland) to have the bulk of his Welsh players,led by Warburton, finally win a sequence of games and prove themselves against the Australians. It seems a little bit of a personal crusade to achieve respect down under after all the failed attempts.

Thus the Lions Captain on his first day says he's confident about the many Welsh leaders around him.....................?

Now, he's happy, he's young, he's spirited, he sees it as a great potential for carving his name into the history books (and it is)...but Lions Captain mentioning specifically the Welsh section (22 non-Welsh players on Lions duty) on his first day?

The days to come better be more carefully worded than the first one.

SecretFly wrote:It strikes me as a determination ( a bloody and stubborn one on the part of Gatland) to have the bulk of his Welsh players,led by Warburton, finally win a sequence of games and prove themselves against the Australians. It seems a little bit of a personal crusade to achieve respect down under after all the failed attempts.

Thus the Lions Captain on his first day says he's confident about the many Welsh leaders around him.....................?

Now, he's happy, he's young, he's spirited, he sees it as a great potential for carving his name into the history books (and it is)...but Lions Captain mentioning specifically the Welsh section (22 non-Welsh players on Lions duty) on his first day?

The days to come better be more carefully worded than the first one.

In fairness Fly he mentioned that PoC and BoD would be the first guys he'd look to when he wanted advice.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

In fairness Fly he mentioned that PoC and BoD would be the first guys he'd look to when he wanted advice.

He'll get it. And if it's a genuine combination of real Welsh, English, Irish and Scottish grit, and not mis-quoted or mis-sold to the media as a Welsh vengence tour, they have real potential to roar through the series... not figuratively, physically.

Not sure why Wales' recent run against Australia is in anyway relevant to the Lions?

Consider that the summer tour was extremely close. The majority of Welsh players actually played well, given a few injuries, but were let down in the dying minutes/seconds of the 2nd and 3rd tests and again in the autumn by stupid mistakes and decision making from out of form players (Priestland). Captain Warburton was not as his best either and he is hugely influential when he is on form.

Excellent post Bilt. Nice to hear a neutrals perspective on it.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Excellent post Bilt. Nice to hear a neutrals perspective on it.

Geez, thanks mate, what a relief, someone not moaning because I have an opinion on something I know nothing about.

Biltong wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Excellent post Bilt. Nice to hear a neutrals perspective on it.

Geez, thanks mate, what a relief, someone not moaning because I have an opinion on something I know nothing about.

Who do you think is gonna win the series?

Ok my take, expect some negative reactions.

I think Gatland wants to play ten man rugby in the sense that inside his half he isn't going to take risks, he will use his forwards and line kickers to tacticcaly stay out of his half.

Only when he is in the right areas of the field will he attack, and by the looks of the selections he made, the running will be direct, no fancy stuff. He will use his big runners to punch holes and set up phases, hoping to find gaps out wide.

The problem with this is that Australia has very good defence, it is well organised and you aren't going to break their defences with direct rugby, if you go look at the games where SA (who is most similar in style) thumped Australia, it was when they went wide and most importantly hit the rucks hard and cleared the ball quickly.

Slow ruck ball will kill the Lions.

On the other hand the Brumbies, Waratahs and Reds have on and off been playing multiphase rugby and scored some very well executed tries in super xv this season.

I don't know exactly what Deans' selections will be, but there has been a few guys coming out of Super XV that adds to their stocks in the backs.

If you just look at these names, some may not have experience, but they are very, very talented and excellent ball carriers, Davies, right wing for the Reds, Mafi, top try scorer, Folau, top finisher, Lealiifano, excelkent boot and a very good 12, Mogg, deadly from deep.

And these guys aren't even Wallabies yet. But you can bet your bottom dollar they will be in the mind of Deans.

Then if you look a their forwards, a front row of Robinson, Moore and Alexander/Slipper isn't going to shame them, Horwill has been good, physical and had some great ball carries this season, a combination of Hooper, Smith, Gill, Palu and there is a new guy not sure how to spell his name , ualua, he is the 8 for the Brumbies, they will be strong at line ou time and very mobile in their backrow.

So I give the Lions the slight edge at scrumtime, but line outs and breakdowns even, and then tactic wise and playmaker wise I give it to the Wallabies.

Mistakes of the Lions will be punished hard, so they can't afford to make them.

I would suggest a 2-1 win to the Wallabies in a very close series decider in the last test.

I disagree in part and don;t think its 10 man at all.

Yes he will definitely play a territorial kicking game and play rugby in their half, but I think he is introducing a key attribute to forward play and the biggest indicator of this is Stevens selection. Footballing skills.

Being an ex hooker you know he has a special interest in the front row; the selection of Stevens, who at his best was the best footballing prop in the NH, suggests he is going for total rugby up front. Vunipola too indicates he is looking for much more than just solid scrummaging. Hibberd is offensive in his defence, Cole is a jackal of sorts and Gethin is sublime on form.
I still think his aim is to totally destroy the Aussie pack and play rugby from everywhere but especially up front, using the destruction of the pack as a base to launch attacks rather than going up the jumper with Doc and Manu in the 12/13 Welsh style, which is what is expected. His pack will drive into the aussie pack repeatedly phase after phase before looking to go wide. Meanwhile the inclusion of Parling and Evans suggests to me he is also intent on set piece domination to support the kicking game.

I am certain from this selection Gatland will play in exactly the same way as Wales - we will get Wales plus. 10 man rugby with the occasional bosh bosh bosh from the centres and as a result the series will be lost probably 3-0.

TJ wrote:I am certain from this selection Gatland will play in exactly the same way as Wales - we will get Wales plus. 10 man rugby with the occasional bosh bosh bosh from the centres and as a result the series will be lost probably 3-0.

Agree with that exactly, right to the end except I think it will be 2-1. This series has 2-1 written all over it.

240 minutes of 'Wales + 10 man rugby with Farrell kicking the goals, Halfpenny at goalkeep, the occasional bosh bosh as you say' backed by the determination of those in the Lions jersey over that period is enough to suggest the Lions will take a test and be competitive. It is the + factor that will give them the minimum one win- Farrell kicking the goals, Sexton providing the potential linebreak at a critical point and Tuilagi providing probably the only x factor outside Tipuric of the entire side.

If the + factor becomes ++ they could snag the series.

Oz gain advantage with a home series, a significant drop in key injuries, a relative smorgasbord of options in some positions and an abundance of the X factor- no one knows exactly what they'll do, who they'll play but one thing is guaranteed. It will be high octane, brutal and memorable.

That tips it in their favour.
Predictability but sound vs the rejuvenated and complete unknown.

I agree with ya Bilt which is kinda upsetting. I am really not game for watching bish bash rugby

Good thread Biltong and good synopsis of Gatland's 10 man plan.

It won't be enough for the Lions to win the series, but they should have a face saving last test win and Gatland can say he emulated Henry - useful to have that experience on his CV.

biltong, I do wonder whether/how Gatland is going to hold on to possession for the long lengths of time, necessary before it can put pressure on the Wallabies?

the main reasons why I see this point as an issue are:

1. The probable W team can win a test on less than 40% possession.

2. The probable W team can hold on without possession for large instalments of each half yet scramble with meagre possession and attack during the back ends of each half.

3. In the first test, Pollock will put pressure on both teams for quick "use it" distribution which IMO will assist Australia rather than the Lions.

I do agree with you that the Lions should have the upper hand at scrum time,and maybe lineout, but an area which that I see the Wallabies doing damage is line speed on D, some displays in this area by some of their teams over the couple of weeks having been utterly brilliant.

Not a Lions post but general rugby question... is hooker popping up in a scrum a penalty against?

aucklandlaurie wrote:
biltong, I do wonder whether/how Gatland is going to hold on to possession for the long lengths of time, necessary before it can put pressure on the Wallabies?

the main reasons why I see this point as an issue are:

1. The probable W team can win a test on less than 40% possession.

2. The probable W team can hold on without possession for large instalments of each half yet scramble with meagre possession and attack during the back ends of each half.

3. In the first test, Pollock will put pressure on both teams for quick "use it" distribution which IMO will assist Australia rather than the Lions.

I do agree with you that the Lions should have the upper hand at scrum time,and maybe lineout, but an area which that I see the Wallabies doing damage is line speed on D, some displays in this area by some of their teams over the couple of weeks having been utterly brilliant.

That's pretty much how I see it as well Laurie, patience on defence is what this Super rugby season has been about thus far, if you look at how many teams with less than 40% posession have won matches then it makes a lot of sense.

OzT wrote:Not a Lions post but general rugby question... is hooker popping up in a scrum a penalty against?

yes mate, should be.

Biltong wrote:

OzT wrote:Not a Lions post but general rugby question... is hooker popping up in a scrum a penalty against?

yes mate, should be.

Which is what Hartley does every other scrum. If Graham Rowntree is responsible for picking Hartley and Stevens, we should be very worried that a scrum guru picks players that cannot scrummage for toffee. Anyone see Stevens in the scrum against Toulon - penalty machine.

Bish bosh is effective if it's done well. But the team need to have awareness and capable of knowing when to stop bludgeoning and start slicing. This is why I hope Youngs/Sexton is the half back pairing. And why BOD's brain and passing might come in much handier than his creaking legs.

Cheers Bilts. That's what I was thinking, and Hartley does seem to get popped up when I have seen him play, so that could be an advantage for the Wallabies, though then again he seldom gets blown up for it, why I asked

Ozt, one aspect of this tour is going to be the controversy at the scrum.

On the one hand the referees guess a lot, australia have been known to tactically collapse scrums and then you have illegal scrumming from both sides.

In my view the Lions should have the advantage at the scrums, and I expect if they do gain the advantage in a significant manner, Australia will know how to tactically counter that.

There are going to be plenty of scrum penalties and plenty of guessing.

Well we did have a good front row with the two Bens a few years ago, then their form dipped but hopefully they'll have found it by June.

Think the Wallabies are used to now not having advantages in the scrum, but should still be able to hold their own.

I have respect for this Lions squad, am ignoring the forwards cause it's a strong pack whoever gets picked,but a lot I think will depend of BOD. If he's on song can still be magical, plus the Lions have got some very strong runners to support once he makes his breaks.

Yes the Lions do have big ball carriers in the back, but Australia knows how to deal with that, you need fast ruck ball, offloading backs and angles to beat the Oz defence.

That's where BOD's so good. Seen him ghost past defenders when there did not seem a gap, and with those big fast supporting runners could give Beales some nightmares!!

You think Beale will be there?

A hooker standing up in the scrum is not in itself a penalty offence. Here are a load of refs discussing it:

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?14109-standing-up-in-scrum

I think he's the best fb we've got, shades of latham in his attack, though not as good a tackler. I hope so, unless he's injured. I just wish all our players and Deans would bury their whatever and just get on and be the best reps for the Wallaby squad. I know Deans a kiwi, but professionally he's doe Oz and the players should be just so proud to play for Oz that they should put their own personal things aside and go and bust a gut for the side.

I know, I'm going off topic here, stop now!!

Thanks for that gelodge, so as long as the hooker keeps both hands gripped on his props then it's ok, that's what I read? Or do you see different?

gelodge wrote:A hooker standing up in the scrum is not in itself a penalty offence. Here are a load of refs discussing it:

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?14109-standing-up-in-scrum

well then we should ask our money back, John Smit and Bismarck has been penalised plenty of times.