Pro12 Playoff 1; Ulster (1st) vs Scarlets (4th) at Ravenhill

First topic message reminder :

Got my ticket booked for this one- expecting a good game if the weather holds up! Scarlets will probably raise their game from their abject home display against Treviso. Having watched them this season, I have noticed that when things don't go well for them and they start making mistakes they tend to get frustrated and make more and more. It seems they once again succumbed to this malaise against an excellent Treviso side who are slowly and surely growing into a team that can contend for a Top Six placing. But at Ravenhill, there is little pressure on them and they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Totally different scenario.

Ulster were pretty poor for the first 40 minutes against Cardiff, no denying it, and will need an improved 80 minute display to see of the challenge of Scarlets and hopefully, in the event of a win, get primed to peak in the final two weeks later. Paddy Jackson has to return to the team at 10- a better defensive organiser and tackler, a more creative outhalf and it sees Pienaar return to his best position. Diack has to play too. Diack adds a great deal of balance to our backrow and I think dropping him to accommodate both Henderson and Williams would be a big mistake. Too unbalanced. Tuohy and Muller is a better balanced second row too, especially at lineout time, and Henderson hasn't been as impressive at lock as he has at 6. It seems like Henderson and Gilroy might both miss out- Gilroy maybe even not making the bench if Fridays selection is anything to go by, although I'd like to see him in there. Peter Nelson would be unfortunate to lose his place on the bench. In terms of impact subs, I actually think Tom Court can be a good impact sub coming on at loosehead. With Court, Henderson and Gilroy leading the charge from the bench in the second half hopefully we have enough to make it to our first ever Pro12 final.

Preferred Team;

1) Callum Black
2) Rory Best
3) John Afoa
4) Johann Muller (c)
5) Dan Tuohy
6) Robbie Diack
7) Chris Henry
8) Nick Williams
9) Ruan Pienaar
10) Paddy Jackson
11) Tommy Bowe
12) Stuart Olding
13) Darren Cave
14) Andrew Trimble
15) Jared Payne

16) Rob Herring 17) Tom Court 18) Declan Fitzpatrick 19) Iain Henderson 20) Sean Doyle 21) Paul Marshall 22) Michael Allen 23) Craig Gilroy

mckay1402 wrote:I think some of the criticism of the officiating is justified but it wasn't just Rollaind. The touch judge should have seen the trip and the fourth official should not have awarded the try. I think any fan would be upset at those two decisions which in the end were the difference between the two sides. naturally because it's a Welsh team we're not allowed to mention any refereeing decisions that went against us though.


It was 12 points that ulster would not have otherwise had and the score difference was 11 points. Not too hard to work out why scarlets fans feel aggrieved.

The trip was a bad miss, mckay. Seem to remember a bit of blocking just prior to that though. The TMO should never have been called into the Court try anyway. A try was given, and rightly so, and the ref should have held to his decision. Not great for the game this sort of farce.

mckay1402 wrote:I think some of the criticism of the officiating is justified but it wasn't just Rollaind. The touch judge should have seen the trip and the fourth official should not have awarded the try. I think any fan would be upset at those two decisions which in the end were the difference between the two sides. naturally because it's a Welsh team we're not allowed to mention any refereeing decisions that went against us though.

It was 12 points that ulster would not have otherwise had and the score difference was 11 points. Not too hard to work out why scarlets fans feel aggrieved.

It don't never stop y'all...whether you're allowed to or not

It's all semantics... as suggesting Ulster wouldn't have played on at a tougher pace until they got what they wanted - had they not indeed gotten what they wanted! - is being economical with the truth. The losing side played more freely and attacked more, given they had the ground to make up and at that point nothing to lose by trying. Ulster had plenty to lose and plenty to defend at that point. Two sides with different perspectives on the final half.

He asked "Try yes or no?" Not even...."Is there any reason why I can't award the try?"

Match officials were poor.Much missed-offsides chasing kicks,head high tackle,trip,lying offside which narked the sub scrummie a fair bit,TMO "try".
North was poorer.The lad has lost his mojo big time.
Williams dragged Ulster along,he was immense and is,along with Pienar,crucial to their chance of winning the play off final.
Ulster v Glasgow Final should be great if both sides at full strength.

Taffineastbourne wrote:
North was poorer.The lad has lost his mojo big time.

This tires on me at times. Has North really lost his mojo or is he just holding it back for the Lions? Are Welsh players who can play like they do at International level more selfish than anything else when it comes to Regional performances?

This dichcotomy between International and Regional really does need more blunt language from time to time. Lost mojo of selfish preservation?

SecretFly wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:
North was poorer.The lad has lost his mojo big time.

This tires on me at times. Has North really lost his mojo or is he just holding it back for the Lions? Are Welsh players who can play like they do at International level more selfish than anything else when it comes to Regional performances?

This dichcotomy between International and Regional really does need more blunt language from time to time. Lost mojo of selfish preservation?

Rugby is the best team game.There is no room for egos and selfishness.If a player puts himself ahead of his teammates he is not worth a place in the side in my view,no matter how good he can be when it suits him.

The match was a big let down. I expected Ulster to win but I also though the Scarlets would put up some bit of a fight. They lost the plot mentally and looked a poorly coached team. Maybe they've just hit a bad run of form because its hard to see how they finished 4th when looking at them last night.

You also had the ref giving Ulster all the 50/50 and 40/60 decisions. Not that it would have made a difference to the outcome of the match but its crazy having refs referee teams from their own country. They're in a no win situation. The Scottish touch judge (McMeniman??) was on the touchline, he could have reffed it.

Poor game ok. Loads of niggle. Dirty play etc.

Scarlets want to be looking at their attitude rather than the ref Ok they came back into it a bit, but they were so poor in the 1st half.

Lads like North and Davies looked like they didn't give a sh1t. I would have no time for that. Especially after the debacle last week at home.

That Scarlets team should have been looking to smash Ulster and fight to the death for the game. All teams have off days, but to have 2 such big ones in a row at he business end of the season.....

Scarlets form turned horribly at the vital time of the season. Since getting knocked out of Europe they really have been great. They ended a 14 game cold streak against Munster (away), they crushed Tigers in the LV Cup and easily dispatched Blues and Glasgow in the playoff race.

In fact (I may be wrong) but I'm pretty sure for all of February, March and April they lost just one game.

Last weeks game against Treviso halted that momentum massively. Ulster looked a confident team, Scarlets looked a team not quite prepared for a must win knockout.

Don't agree that Williams should have got red. A yellow for him and Trimble seemed fair. Lots of swinging by both but no real punches landed.

Barclay will be a great boost to Llanelli though they will surely need another back three player if both Fenby and North are leaving?

As for Ulster they have a real shot of winning it. That win against Leinster in Dublin last month will have them in good stead as they look for a win over Leinster or Glasgow.

MrsP wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

MrsP wrote:And, I could have told you that Rolland was going to get pulled apart by certain fans tonight long before kick-off. It would not have mattered which guy had the whistle for some folks. If their team lost they will blame the ref. Everytime ref!!!!

I don't know who else uses that Everytime ref, but I know the Dragons do but only in a humorous way. Even if there's been a penalty given in the first minute, they'll use it.

I don't see the harm in that myself.

Totally agree Rev! That was the same way I was using it last night, just trying to bring a little levity to the situation!

There is little more painful than a series of decisions going against your team in a big game. These forums provide a place to vent those frustrations, and I have no problem with fans doing so, there were certainly a couple of incidents that went against the Scarlets.

But lets be realistic. Ulster never really hit top gear, and the scarlets were poor. The game was won just after half time and Ulster made a few chances and went into training game mode. There is no way on earth the decisions that went against the scarlets lost them the game. Ulster had much more in the tank and more gears to go through. I feel your pain, the ref did not win this game for Ulster, he maybe just soured the taste of defeat for the scarlets.

I am amazed by some of the attitudes and arrogance here...

Scarlets who were massively injury hit, turned up and really tested a superior Ulster team, the Scarlets pack was probably a touch on top at times, and really fought for each other.

The difference between the 2 teams were the injuries, home tie and a few poor ref team calls, little else.

North looked awfull (again) but if reports are correct half the squad aren't talking to him and he isn't talking to anyone above the playing squad for the selling him debacle, why should he play for a team who have fallen out with him, and sold him under his own nose? He has a lions tour and career beyond the Scarlets to think about, as much as he tried he probably hasn't been able to get up for games in recent times (see Owens reluctance to put North in for a try late on and go into contact)

JD2 was poor too, but Williams was forced off early with injury and RP was lost in the warm up, big team loses 10 and 12 and 13 didn't play well shocker!!

As I said earlier, Ulster were the superior team and the best team in the Rabo by a mile so deserve to be in the final, and that game couldve been replayed 10 times and Uslter win it for me, good ref or bad!

But to claim they weren't under any pressure, were coasting and weren't out of first gear is massively disrespecfull, and it irks me when I hear Kiwi fans who tend to say it a lot when theyve won by 5-7 points!!!

And just regarding the 2 key decisions, for me they were both key in 2 scores and 12 points, if anyone tells me a 12 point hit like that doesn't have a knock on effect with players attitude toward the game/ref youve never played, it's so easy to get on the wrong side of a ref once he's made a big mistake against you, then your mindset changes, similar to Englands performance against Wales, the scrums were huge in seeing English heads go down, and you can't blame English fans for feeling cheated!!

Very well said bluesman. Scarlets still look as if they have issues up front, so how do they solve that? Is Easterby making the wrong selections? I know he's been very inconsistent in selection all season. Both Gareth's (Owen and Davies) surely deserve a better shot at it next September. They aren't getting game time because they don't hold the reputation of JD2, Scott Williams, RP, etc.

Bluesman you are spot on.

Ulster always had the upper hand but its amazing when a perceived key player or key change (both in the case of Priestland taking the spot off Owen Williams) can have on the mindset of the already underdogs. A few things I noticed within the first 15 minutes which already had a bearing on the minds of the Scarlets front five. That with Scott Williams, Liam Williams and Ken Owens all arguably key players and game changers didn't help their cause.

It was actually the Scarlets that revealed the early enterprise but Williams missing a long but fairly easy 35m attempt was a blow. Nick Williams continually offside driving through the maul when he was in front of all his team, I saw it happening on three occasions (Mike Ruddock guesting for the BBC Wales radio team commented this morning on it as well) McCusker complained to the ref on the second occasion and was ignored. The blatant trip by Diack on the 24 minute should have seen him having a 10 minute rest that would have solved the issue of tries by Bowe and Diack himself as he would still have been in the bin. The trip most deffo turned the game in Ulsters favour but even before that if the ref had dealt with Williams offside play he would have not been so effective.

The whole game can swing on one of two events, you often see a team who have been whipped in the first half become a totally different team in the second.

To say that Ulster played in 1st or 2nd gear is laughable and quite disrespectful, but at the end of the day you have to play the ref and the key decisions on the day............ and Ulster were the better side on the day and in fact all season.

So well done Ulster, hard luck Scarlets.

And come on the Weegies tonight

flyhalffactory wrote:
To say that Ulster played in 1st or 2nd gear is laughable and quite disrespectful, but at the end of the day you have to play the ref and the key decisions on the day............ and Ulster were the better side on the day and in fact all season.

So well done Ulster, hard luck Scarlets.

And come on the Weegies tonight

+1.

The Saint wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:
To say that Ulster played in 1st or 2nd gear is laughable and quite disrespectful, but at the end of the day you have to play the ref and the key decisions on the day............ and Ulster were the better side on the day and in fact all season.

So well done Ulster, hard luck Scarlets.

And come on the Weegies tonight

+1.

+2

Ulster were the best team on the day, and all season and thouroughly deserve the final, I persoanally hope Glasgow meet them there, my 2 teams of the season

I certainly wasn't being disrespectful. I said Ulster didn't hit TOP gear, not that they played in 1st gear. The suggestion being they were playing well, they had to, but that they had another level to go to if required. It wasn't.

To continue to talk of 12 underserved points scored in fatuous at best. The 'trip' decision was wrong, but there were several phases afterwards that the Scarlets couldnt defend their line from. And what are you seeing regarding the Court try that says it absolutely wasn't a try? It looks all the world a try to me, and at worst, given any doubt, a 5 meter try and still a great opportunity to score. Of course there are momentum swings as a result of decisions. But far far more key to the momentum of the game and the result was the fact ulster was the better team.

The score was 25-3 at the 44 minute mark. For all the world the game was won and it showed in Ulster's performance from here on in. Take away the 'trip' try and that's still a large margin and Im sure Ulster would have kept up their intensity for longer than they did.

Like i say, no disrespect meant, and I've no problem with folk expressing their displeasure. I just feel the need to provide a counter balance to that.

logie28 wrote:I certainly wasn't being disrespectful. I said Ulster didn't hit TOP gear, not that they played in 1st gear. The suggestion being they were playing well, they had to, but that they had another level to go to if required. It wasn't.

To continue to talk of 12 underserved points scored in fatuous at best. The 'trip' decision was wrong, but there were several phases afterwards that the Scarlets couldnt defend their line from. And what are you seeing regarding the Court try that says it absolutely wasn't a try? It looks all the world a try to me, and at worst, given any doubt, a 5 meter try and still a great opportunity to score. Of course there are momentum swings as a result of decisions. But far far more key to the momentum of the game and the result was the fact ulster was the better team.

The score was 25-3 at the 44 minute mark. For all the world the game was won and it showed in Ulster's performance from here on in. Take away the 'trip' try and that's still a large margin and Im sure Ulster would have kept up their intensity for longer than they did.

Like i say, no disrespect meant, and I've no problem with folk expressing their displeasure. I just feel the need to provide a counter balance to that.

Logie mate you are spot on. Ulster had one or two gears to spare especially when they were 25-3 up, The Scarlets had 4 key players injured during that key period and some dodgy reffing. All semantics, but I think most of our Welsh brethren agree that Ulster deserved to go through both on the night and over the season.

But you have to agree if Diack was binned then the Scarlets might have been able to defend their line better or the whole mindset of the two teams might have changed, and they wouldn't have had to.

However it was quite clear that the first 15-20 mins the Scarlets were IMO the slightly better side, as I said Nick Williams made massive in-roads around the breakdown but was clearly offside three times on the bounce now the ref and linesman must have seen it but chose to ignore even though McCusker made a point about it. When the trip was ignored then you could sense a change in the air and you have to say that cost the away side 12-14 points, and along with Williams straightforward pen miss it veered from a potential 3-6 score to 25-3 before you knew it. Most deffo then Ulster switched off but it can be said that the Scarlets edged the game in the first 20 mins and finished the last 15-20 the better side, and but for a crazy early engagement what five metres out could have come within four points and at 28-24 it might have been twitchy bums time

FHF,

I wouldn't have said that Scralets were the better team in the first 20 mins at all. They certainly were better in that period than for the subsequent 40 mins but did they ever look like scoring in that period?

I am still trying to work out what was the problem with the Tom Court try. Apart from the ref awarding it and then back tracking to go to the TMO, what was wrong with it?

That's a reasonable analysis from one point of view FHF, but I could also argue that without the refs 'help' Ulster were still capable of scoring tries, and they would have done so.

On the Williams thing, Ive been moaning about this type of blocking for years, (I especially hate players joining mauls from the back but bypassing the ball carrier and joining the blocking group in front) But while Ulster were doing it last night, I don't think they were doing anything other teams aren't doing game in game out, rightly or wrongly (wrongly!)

If I was a Scarlets fan I would really be bemoaning our luck with injuries. Losing Priestland pre match for a start, but then they had a succession of injuries during the game that would put an side totally off their game. These injuries prevented them getting any continuity and lost them key players and, more so than the ref, scuppered their chances of winning imo.

On the subject of injuries any word of Ken Owens? Like Best I think he's unlucky not to be a Lion this year, hope he's okay.

The Scarlets are a better team than they showed last night, but because of their form and injuries I feel we won that game comfortably, and would have done so without the benefit of the ref.

Now cmon glasgow!

Ok so this whole the ref ruined the result well heres a wee break down I managed to come up with
IF the ref had got every decision right then
No try for Bowe because Diack Tripped Scarlets player, Diack Probably goes to the bin
Court try is adjudged short but the 2 Scarlets players quite clearly offside stoped him 1 metre from their own line professional foul called bothe players to bin and penalty try awarded
Trimble get yellow maybe red for the slaps or punches or whatever that was from him Williams gets Red for the punches.
Scarlets get close to Ulster line and lose posession twice due to illegal stamps from scrumhalf this may also have resulted in yellow card
Final score presuming no other scores are scored during yellow cards etc and that Ulster still take their foot of the gas
Ulster 21-17 Scarlets anybody think this is wrong?

I don't think anyone is being disrespectful. My analysis of ulster is we looked nervous for the first ten and struggled for fluency, played very well for 40 mins then once we got out to 3 scores up we dropped our intensity and switched off. Let scarlets back into it when we should have put them to the sword. Scarlets showed good heart and that they left their best forwards on the bench, but we have every right to be disappointed with our team stopping playing for the last half hour...

neilthom7 wrote:Ok so this whole the ref ruined the result well heres a wee break down I managed to come up with
IF the ref had got every decision right then
No try for Bowe because Diack Tripped Scarlets player, Diack Probably goes to the bin Agree, would the Scarlet's score against 14 men...probably say just one penalty
Court try is adjudged short but the 2 Scarlets players quite clearly offside stoped him 1 metre from their own line professional foul called both players to bin and penalty try awarded Disagree lost the ball and short no try
Trimble get yellow maybe red for the slaps or punches or whatever that was from him Williams gets Red for the punches. If Trimble cant take it don't dish it out, yellow each fair.
Scarlet's get close to Ulster line and lose posession twice due to illegal stamps from scrumhalf this may also have resulted in yellow card Two kickable penalties or chance of a converted try against 14 men.
Final score presuming no other scores are scored during yellow cards etc and that Ulster still take their foot of the gas
Ulster 21-17 Scarlets anybody think this is wrong?

I make that 14 - 27!

The truth is that Ulster would probably have raised their game and prevented the Scarlet's comeback, but we will never know because the ref prevented a fair contest.

Yawn. Can't quite believe we've descended to the depths of wondering what the score might have been if a couple of decisions had gone the other way - where does it all stop? Time to move on. Ulster are in the final, Scarlets will learn from the experience and be back fighting once again next season

Seagultaf wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Ok so this whole the ref ruined the result well heres a wee break down I managed to come up with
IF the ref had got every decision right then
No try for Bowe because Diack Tripped Scarlets player, Diack Probably goes to the bin Agree, would the Scarlet's score against 14 men...probably say just one penalty
Court try is adjudged short but the 2 Scarlets players quite clearly offside stoped him 1 metre from their own line professional foul called both players to bin and penalty try awarded Disagree lost the ball and short no try
Trimble get yellow maybe red for the slaps or punches or whatever that was from him Williams gets Red for the punches. If Trimble cant take it don't dish it out, yellow each fair.
Scarlet's get close to Ulster line and lose posession twice due to illegal stamps from scrumhalf this may also have resulted in yellow card Two kickable penalties or chance of a converted try against 14 men.
Final score presuming no other scores are scored during yellow cards etc and that Ulster still take their foot of the gas
Ulster 21-17 Scarlets anybody think this is wrong?

I make that 14 - 27!

The truth is that Ulster would probably have raised their game and prevented the Scarlet's comeback, but we will never know because the ref prevented a fair contest.

What mate your maths is off the stamps from scrumhalf were scarlets scrumhalf and agree or disagree on courts ground he was quite clearly stoped by 2 offside men im sorry but there just is no argument there, also whether trimble can take it or not is not an indication of rules Williams by law would ahve been sent of so probably would trimble if they were interpreted as punches. by your maths on yellows etc Ulster would have won by even more mate

He didn't really prevent a fair contest at all, there were a few key errors, and I'd say the breakdown was a mixture of dominance from Ulster and a few favourable calls.

Noone is blaming the ref for the result here, but there is definately criticism, and worthy criticism IMHO.

Noone can know how teams/players wouldve reacted with different ref calls, but neil has a point, Courts try was definately short, but I thought that Lee was definately offside too, Owens might have just got back to an onside position for me.

All in all the difference between the teams was the combination of injuries, the home tie and the ref, because they combined very early on and attributed to a 22 point lead by half time doesn't matter too much IMHO.

Ulster were the better team, deserved the home tie, and deserve the final

My issue is this is not the first complaint certain fans have had about possible bias, Rolland shouldn't have been reffing the game, as he shouldn't have been reffing the wRWC semi, similar that Owens shouldn't have been reffirng the Samoa game at the RWC, take the opportunity for blame away and the problems sorted.

Anyway why am I even arguing about this from an Ulster perspective
We started alright, then played a great 40 minutes sparked really by the fight ironically enough. Then we eased off and the subs came on etc etc. So very dissapointed we eased off in the final if that were to happen it could cost us the game. I thought Tuohy, Williams, Pienaar and Payne had very good games as did Best. Front row and locks look strong, halfbacks did well, we look good round midfield too. Big game today and very interesting final ahead

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ulster were the better team, deserved the home tie, and deserve the final

My issue is this is not the first complaint certain fans have had about possible bias, Rolland shouldn't have been reffing the game, as he shouldn't have been reffing the wRWC semi, similar that Owens shouldn't have been reffirng the Samoa game at the RWC, take the opportunity for blame away and the problems sorted.

The right conclusion, bluesman.

On the issue of the potential for ref bias, do you think that is perceived or real? I suspect that regardless of the outcome yesterday, certain fans (not you) had already made up their minds that Rolland was going to ref in favour of an 'Irish' team, even tho there is nothing to suggest that would be the case in advance.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ulster were the better team, deserved the home tie, and deserve the final

My issue is this is not the first complaint certain fans have had about possible bias, Rolland shouldn't have been reffing the game, as he shouldn't have been reffing the wRWC semi, similar that Owens shouldn't have been reffirng the Samoa game at the RWC, take the opportunity for blame away and the problems sorted.

The right conclusion, bluesman.

On the issue of the potential for ref bias, do you think that is perceived or real? I suspect that regardless of the outcome yesterday, certain fans (not you) had already made up their minds that Rolland was going to ref in favour of an 'Irish' team, even tho there is nothing to suggest that would be the case in advance.

I agree, as soon as Scarlets fans (especially those who remember the RWC) saw he was reffing they probably weren't happy about it, an Irish ref, reffing an Irish team on Irish soil (Don't!!!). And for that alone I think him reffing the game was wrong, it may have effected travelling fans, buzz around the team, and the teams attitude toward him, and his attitude toward them (there was a very large internet campaign from the Welsh quadrant ridiculling him).

I have no doubt that Rolland had nothing but his professional performance as a ref in mind for this game, but the question mark, which was far more perceived as real (99.9/0.1) is all that matters.

Owens took a hiding from the Samoan team and management in the RWC, he was called a cheat by many supposed pro's in the Samoan game, why he was put in that position I will never know!!

From my POV if there is the tiniest hint of perception/history then just ship someone else in and have him run the line, would it have made that much difference is Rolland ran the line for the Scottish ref who did run the line?

I do think that part of the issue was a hang over from that Match between these teams a couple of seasons ago. I think we had a non Irish ref that day but the some Scarlets fans and the Scrum V team seemed convinced he was biased too.

As I remember it he did have a pretty terrible game right enough but I do think that some folk just seem to have decided that they will never get a fair match at Ravenhill. Then it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as we interpret each mistake as more evidence of our assumed bias.

MrsP wrote:I do think that part of the issue was a hang over from that Match between these teams a couple of seasons ago. I think we had a non Irish ref that day but the some Scarlets fans and the Scrum V team seemed convinced he was biased too.

As I remember it he did have a pretty terrible game right enough but I do think that some folk just seem to have decided that they will never get a fair match at Ravenhill. Then it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as we interpret each mistake as more evidence of our assumed bias.

Except I'm not a Scarlets fan, have no idea what game your refferring to, and I still think the ref deserved criticism

Can't believe this thread is still going!

Fairy nuff Blues.

I did sort of notice that you aren't primarily a Turk.

Not sure what gave it away?



Griff,

Why wouldn't it still be going on? Sometimes views are less extreme the day following a game. We are having a pretty sensible and very civilized discussion. Why not?

This thread is like the coals of a very large fire which was blazing away 24 hours ago. An orange glow with that fine layer of white ash on top.

Apologies... I'm up for the FA Cup. Just thought I'd stick my noggin' in because I heard a bit of noise coming from this direction.

Interesting choice of adjectives there given some of the previous discussions!

MrsP wrote:Fairy nuff Blues.

I did sort of notice that you aren't primarily a Turk.

Not sure what gave it away?



Griff,

Why wouldn't it still be going on? Sometimes views are less extreme the day following a game. We are having a pretty sensible and very civilized discussion. Why not?

Sorry, what I meant was the arguments over to ref etc. rather than the thread itself. But can see from your reaction that people are still spoiling for a fight, so I'll bow out now.
Cheers. Enjoy your evening.

I always think the occasional Welsh complaints about Irish refs are amusing when it comes to Ulster. They always underestimate the strength of provincial bonds over the national one in this country- they're thinking. "Great. Bloody Irish Ref. Thats just perfect." We're thinking- "Oh perfect. A Leinsterman as referee. Wonderful."

Notch wrote:I always think the occasional Welsh complaints about Irish refs are amusing when it comes to Ulster. They always underestimate the strength of provincial bonds over the national one in this country- they're thinking. "Great. Bloody Irish Ref. Thats just perfect." We're thinking- "Oh perfect. A Leinsterman as referee. Wonderful."

Again Welsh? Or Scarlets? When was the last time another Welsh club criticised a ref in Belfast?

I think a part of the problem recently is that a certain few WUM posters who I suspect aren't even Welsh have done a great job of complaining and gloating and certain mindsets on here from a lot of usually decent sadden me!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

rodders wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

rodders wrote:

The Saint wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Well what a surprise the hand picked ref won Ulster the game.

Shocking! even as far telling a Scarlets scrum five meters out from the Ulster line going for a push over try to "use it" WTF?

Every Scarlet ruck formed he called "use it" immediately,
the trip,
the close line on Davies with the try line in sigh,
the ball slapped down on the Ulster line,
Tom Court didn't even get over the line,
Andrew Trimble assaulting someone with their arms pined down thn backing off when he fought back.
Sealing off
In the side.

SHOCKER!

Here's a man telling you how it is Rodders, Gibson, Neil, etc.

Nah, view's probably just a bit stressed because he's ran out of creatine or something. A wee drip down to holland and barrett and he'll be back on top form ...

Actually got some creatine on Wednesday no Holland and Barret crap goes in this temple/body, only pure grade.

You're a classy guy view!

Pure grade Creatine Is it any better on the liver? Does it dehydrate you less? I suppose I'm looking from a performance POV though, hopping up on it and watching yourself flex in gym mirrors should be harmless enough...

I don't flex,infact my gym doesn't even have a mirror, i powerlift.
Regards creatine quality just like anything in life you get what you pay for.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ulster were the better team, deserved the home tie, and deserve the final

My issue is this is not the first complaint certain fans have had about possible bias, Rolland shouldn't have been reffing the game, as he shouldn't have been reffing the wRWC semi, similar that Owens shouldn't have been reffirng the Samoa game at the RWC, take the opportunity for blame away and the problems sorted.

The right conclusion, bluesman.

On the issue of the potential for ref bias, do you think that is perceived or real? I suspect that regardless of the outcome yesterday, certain fans (not you) had already made up their minds that Rolland was going to ref in favour of an 'Irish' team, even tho there is nothing to suggest that would be the case in advance.

I agree, as soon as Scarlets fans (especially those who remember the RWC) saw he was reffing they probably weren't happy about it, an Irish ref, reffing an Irish team on Irish soil (Don't!!!). And for that alone I think him reffing the game was wrong, it may have effected travelling fans, buzz around the team, and the teams attitude toward him, and his attitude toward them (there was a very large internet campaign from the Welsh quadrant ridiculling him).

I have no doubt that Rolland had nothing but his professional performance as a ref in mind for this game, but the question mark, which was far more perceived as real (99.9/0.1) is all that matters.

Owens took a hiding from the Samoan team and management in the RWC, he was called a cheat by many supposed pro's in the Samoan game, why he was put in that position I will never know!!

From my POV if there is the tiniest hint of perception/history then just ship someone else in and have him run the line, would it have made that much difference is Rolland ran the line for the Scottish ref who did run the line?

Jeebus, bluesman, if you think Rolland took some stick on here last night, can you imagine what it would have been like with a Scots ref?!?!

Linebreaker wrote:This thread is like the coals of a very large fire which was blazing away 24 hours ago. An orange glow with that fine layer of white ash on top.

Apologies... I'm up for the FA Cup. Just thought I'd stick my noggin' in because I heard a bit of noise coming from this direction.

That's just MrsP's new hair-do, LB

Griff wrote:

MrsP wrote:Fairy nuff Blues.

I did sort of notice that you aren't primarily a Turk.

Not sure what gave it away?



Griff,

Why wouldn't it still be going on? Sometimes views are less extreme the day following a game. We are having a pretty sensible and very civilized discussion. Why not?

Sorry, what I meant was the arguments over to ref etc. rather than the thread itself. But can see from your reaction that people are still spoiling for a fight, so I'll bow out now.
Cheers. Enjoy your evening.

Griff, don't bow out, man, there's not a chance MrsP has a bee in her bonnet about this one, trust me!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Notch wrote:I always think the occasional Welsh complaints about Irish refs are amusing when it comes to Ulster. They always underestimate the strength of provincial bonds over the national one in this country- they're thinking. "Great. Bloody Irish Ref. Thats just perfect." We're thinking- "Oh perfect. A Leinsterman as referee. Wonderful."

Again Welsh? Or Scarlets? When was the last time another Welsh club criticised a ref in Belfast?

I think a part of the problem recently is that a certain few WUM posters who I suspect aren't even Welsh have done a great job of complaining and gloating and certain mindsets on here from a lot of usually decent sadden me!

Agreed, bluesman, it's not 'Welsh' nor 'Scarlets' fans in general at all, just the same few tiresome characters that come on to feic things up for everyone else - Mods, I can list them for you if you like!

viewtothegym wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

rodders wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

rodders wrote:

The Saint wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Well what a surprise the hand picked ref won Ulster the game.

Shocking! even as far telling a Scarlets scrum five meters out from the Ulster line going for a push over try to "use it" WTF?

Every Scarlet ruck formed he called "use it" immediately,
the trip,
the close line on Davies with the try line in sigh,
the ball slapped down on the Ulster line,
Tom Court didn't even get over the line,
Andrew Trimble assaulting someone with their arms pined down thn backing off when he fought back.
Sealing off
In the side.

SHOCKER!

Here's a man telling you how it is Rodders, Gibson, Neil, etc.

Nah, view's probably just a bit stressed because he's ran out of creatine or something. A wee drip down to holland and barrett and he'll be back on top form ...

Actually got some creatine on Wednesday no Holland and Barret crap goes in this temple/body, only pure grade.

You're a classy guy view!

Pure grade Creatine Is it any better on the liver? Does it dehydrate you less? I suppose I'm looking from a performance POV though, hopping up on it and watching yourself flex in gym mirrors should be harmless enough...

I don't flex,infact my gym doesn't even have a mirror, i powerlift.
Regards creatine quality just like anything in life you get what you pay for.

If your powerlifting with creatine your doing yourself a disservice, at max lift your probably losing out on about 5 - 8% performance through dehydration alone

viewtothegym wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

rodders wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

rodders wrote:

The Saint wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Well what a surprise the hand picked ref won Ulster the game.

Shocking! even as far telling a Scarlets scrum five meters out from the Ulster line going for a push over try to "use it" WTF?

Every Scarlet ruck formed he called "use it" immediately,
the trip,
the close line on Davies with the try line in sigh,
the ball slapped down on the Ulster line,
Tom Court didn't even get over the line,
Andrew Trimble assaulting someone with their arms pined down thn backing off when he fought back.
Sealing off
In the side.

SHOCKER!

Here's a man telling you how it is Rodders, Gibson, Neil, etc.

Nah, view's probably just a bit stressed because he's ran out of creatine or something. A wee drip down to holland and barrett and he'll be back on top form ...

Actually got some creatine on Wednesday no Holland and Barret crap goes in this temple/body, only pure grade.

You're a classy guy view!

Pure grade Creatine Is it any better on the liver? Does it dehydrate you less? I suppose I'm looking from a performance POV though, hopping up on it and watching yourself flex in gym mirrors should be harmless enough...

I don't flex,infact my gym doesn't even have a mirror, i powerlift.
Regards creatine quality just like anything in life you get what you pay for.

Say no more

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

rodders wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

rodders wrote:

The Saint wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Well what a surprise the hand picked ref won Ulster the game.

Shocking! even as far telling a Scarlets scrum five meters out from the Ulster line going for a push over try to "use it" WTF?

Every Scarlet ruck formed he called "use it" immediately,
the trip,
the close line on Davies with the try line in sigh,
the ball slapped down on the Ulster line,
Tom Court didn't even get over the line,
Andrew Trimble assaulting someone with their arms pined down thn backing off when he fought back.
Sealing off
In the side.

SHOCKER!

Here's a man telling you how it is Rodders, Gibson, Neil, etc.

Nah, view's probably just a bit stressed because he's ran out of creatine or something. A wee drip down to holland and barrett and he'll be back on top form ...

Actually got some creatine on Wednesday no Holland and Barret crap goes in this temple/body, only pure grade.

You're a classy guy view!

Pure grade Creatine Is it any better on the liver? Does it dehydrate you less? I suppose I'm looking from a performance POV though, hopping up on it and watching yourself flex in gym mirrors should be harmless enough...

I don't flex,infact my gym doesn't even have a mirror, i powerlift.
Regards creatine quality just like anything in life you get what you pay for.

Say no more

Also if you don't have a mirror how do you check form? Especially as powerlifting is so technical, surely you don't have a conditioner on hand at all times?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

rodders wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

rodders wrote:

The Saint wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Well what a surprise the hand picked ref won Ulster the game.

Shocking! even as far telling a Scarlets scrum five meters out from the Ulster line going for a push over try to "use it" WTF?

Every Scarlet ruck formed he called "use it" immediately,
the trip,
the close line on Davies with the try line in sigh,
the ball slapped down on the Ulster line,
Tom Court didn't even get over the line,
Andrew Trimble assaulting someone with their arms pined down thn backing off when he fought back.
Sealing off
In the side.

SHOCKER!

Here's a man telling you how it is Rodders, Gibson, Neil, etc.

Nah, view's probably just a bit stressed because he's ran out of creatine or something. A wee drip down to holland and barrett and he'll be back on top form ...

Actually got some creatine on Wednesday no Holland and Barret crap goes in this temple/body, only pure grade.

You're a classy guy view!

Pure grade Creatine Is it any better on the liver? Does it dehydrate you less? I suppose I'm looking from a performance POV though, hopping up on it and watching yourself flex in gym mirrors should be harmless enough...

I don't flex,infact my gym doesn't even have a mirror, i powerlift.
Regards creatine quality just like anything in life you get what you pay for.

Say no more

Also if you don't have a mirror how do you check form? Especially as powerlifting is so technical, surely you don't have a conditioner on hand at all times?

Aye, Pantene

nope a mirror is a huge distraction for a powerlifter, form check by using the video on your phone, creatine can dehydrate but it never has really effected me that way.

viewtothegym wrote:nope a mirror is a huge distraction for a powerlifter, form check by using the video on your phone, creatine can dehydrate but it never has really effected me that way.

Just spat cider all over the computer!