There is life sans H-Cup!

Is losing the h-cup really a killer blow to pro rugby, especially in the pro 12 countries?

I'm really talking about money here. After investigating a little I'm really optimistic about how the pro 12 countries will do without it should the whole thing fall apart. With little or no changes, and no new competition even, all the countries could do just fine financially. England and France should do well also.

I only dug into the IRFU accounts so let me know if this wouldn't be true for the other pro 12 sides. The IRFU only gets 13% of profits. This was about €5.3 million. Last year the IRFU ended with a profit of over €7 million. So they would have made a profit even if the h-cup hadn't existed!

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_Annual_Report-2011-2012v2.pdf
(look to page 37 and 66 for details.)

"Were the new format to come into place, the English and the French would see their share of the ERC participation monies increase from last season’s estimated share of €10 million each to roughly €13.3 million apiece. This would be at the expense of the celts, whose share would be reduced from the estimated €5.3 million of last year to €3.5 million, while the Italians would receive approximately €3 million instead of €4 million." This is a quote from the Irish Times.

The WRU and SRU get the same 13% share as Ireland and the Italians get 11%.

With one more international per year this shortfall would be covered. The amount of money the pro 12 countries make from this is small enough compared to what their overall income is. They may not even need to do this. The RFU likewise could give more money to their clubs if they want to to help out the pro game there. Internationals are popular in every country involved so this hosting even one more a year could be an instant fix. Without the h-cup this would be no huge burden on the players who will be playing less anyway. To my knowledge though the WRU also made a profit last year.

So yes, there is hope for us all!

Players though.

And what they want to do and who they want to play with or against to test themselves.

HC might not be needed on a overt financial basis - but lurking beneath is the desires of players themselves. The enticement of 'far away hills are always greener' might begin to bite.

At present, Irish teams can test themselves against English teams and French teams...some of the French ones with real superstar names. The HC/Amlin, then, takes away the pressures of needing to be in those leagues to have a shot at those players and those teams.

Were that to go, the Pro12 might survive comfortably for a few years. But pressure on players would grow. The lure of playing in a big French league with exotic players would grow. Offers would flow in; and this time, in the absence of a European competition, many players would give in to the urge to test themselves in other leagues.

Already there is a bit of a floodgate opening over in Wales and that is playing some part in the financial wars going on over there between regions and the WRU. Would Pro12 in itself be enough to keep current players in Ireland in sufficient numbers to keep Irish Provinces competitive even in Pro12 itself?

Whilst the Unions may survive, which means Scottish/Irish clubs/provinces are safe, the Welsh and Italians would possibly fail, as we rely on sponsorship money etc (as individual teams) so no hec, not big sponsors.

I think Treviso and the Welsh regions would be the big losers because they're not owned by the unions. As far as I know Zebra are owned by the union aren't they?

It would not do European rugby any good if we lost the HC. How could they throw away something that's been such a huge success and in it's short life has already grown into a much loved tradition with great history and legendary past winners to inspire future generations. It's crazy.

I have a feeling the French are much less willing to lose European competition than McCafferty, who seems happy to tear it all down. I think there'll be a deal made. And at worst the English will sit it out in a year long sulk before coming back, like in '99.

They could also have smaller squads since theres less games in the season. It would attract more fans since the star players would be playing more often.

Feckless Rogue wrote:McCafferty, who seems happy to tear it all down.

Am I right in thinking McCafferty doesn't even have a background related to rugby other than his job now? He doesn't really care about tradition and is a corporate guy out for shareholders and profit margins. That's not a criticism of what he wants or who he is, but his conditioning isn't interested in nostalgia or the game itself...just economic performance growth upon growth each year upon year.

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership/rugby/player/79580.html

McCafferty succeeded Howard Thomas in 2005, having previously enjoyed success in the consumer sector. After spending the early part of his career with Midland Bank he spent eleven years with the Thomas Cook group.

Following this McCafferty joined Avis, where he remained until leaving in 2003 to pursue private investments.

His appointment in 2005 left the door open to improve the commercial footprint of the Guinness Premiership, with his expertise in branding being an important part of his suitability for the job.

No doubt he's good at making money for the people who hire him to make money for them. But his job is to make money for English rugby. So we should obviously be wary (to say the least) of his grand plans for the setup of the Rabo Pro12 and European competition.

Nope, a guy from that background should never be allowed have grand plans for rugby. No wonder an English club (can't remember which - was it Saracens?) went off to play a game in the middle east a while back?

Killing two bird with one stone - rugby and holidays!

When was that Fly, The game in the middle east? They are trying to devlope rugby over there; especially sevens.

There must be a bit of money in rugby over there. Jeremy Manning is over there with the Abu Dhabi Harlequins.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:When was that Fly, The game in the middle east? They are trying to devlope rugby over there; especially sevens.

There must be a bit of money in rugby over there. Jeremy Manning is over there with the Abu Dhabi Harlequins.

Now you are putting doubts in my mind, Leinster. I definitely remember a lot of talk about some English club or clubs either talking about playing in the middle east somewhere or actually going ahead with it...and club fans weren't really up for the idea and thought it was just a money grabbing gimick. I'm certain I heard all that a few years ago. I'll look it up if I get a chance to prove or disprove my memory!!!

SecretFly wrote:Nope, a guy from that background should never be allowed have grand plans for rugby. No wonder an English club (can't remember which - was it Saracens?) went off to play a game in the middle east a while back?

Killing two bird with one stone - rugby and holidays!

I think you are referring to the LV cup game in United Arab Emirates which Wasps did about 2 years ago vs Quins.

http://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/match_report/0,,11069_45014_1,00.html

Yep, that must be it, beshocked. I just remember that a lot of fans of both sides weren't really very warm on the idea....

Thats interesting. Must have been money in doing something like that.

If you scroll down the bottom there is a comment from a guy who was at the game.

So an English teams plays a game in the Middle East and they're money grabbing barstewards. But PRO12 supportors talking about breaking into the US as good thing financially are ok?

PRL CE isn't a rugby guy so "Nope, a guy from that background should never be allowed have grand plans for rugby". But of course it's fine that the guy in charge of the WRU isn't from a rugby background?

And I really hope the 'they' in

How could they throw away something that's been such a huge success and in it's short life has already grown into a much loved tradition with great history and legendary past winners to inspire future generations. It's crazy.

refers to all parties not just one or two.

HammerofThunor wrote:So an English teams plays a game in the Middle East and they're money grabbing barstewards. But PRO12 supportors talking about breaking into the US as good thing financially are ok?

Not at all, don't be so sensitive ... was just pointing out that he sees rugby through Thomas Cook specs Go for the rugby, stay for the apartment with a brilliant view of the pool.

HammerofThunor wrote:

And I really hope the 'they' in

How could they throw away something that's been such a huge success and in it's short life has already grown into a much loved tradition with great history and legendary past winners to inspire future generations. It's crazy.

refers to all parties not just one or two.

..and only two sides wanted the change.................

That would be the two that having given a financial leg up to the other members in the last agreement, as they were pleading poverty at the time, are now being screwed for their fair share....The french clubs will see this through.
The HC should be kept if possible and each Union should enter 50% of their top teams into the HC and 50% into the Amlin with the HC winner getting another team from their league/Union. Funds divided equally. Simple really.

Recwatcher wrote:That would be the two that having given a financial leg up to the other members in the last agreement, as they were pleading poverty at the time, are now being screwed for their fair share....The french clubs will see this through.
The HC should be kept if possible and each Union should enter 50% of their top teams into the HC and 50% into the Amlin with the HC winner getting another team from their league/Union. Funds divided equally. Simple really.

We've been through it all before Rec. And we're not going to agree. Look at the history of dear old Heineken Cup from the very beginning and you'll see French and English involvement in it grow and grow over the years by 'rights' given to them to enter more sides into it.

Nope, they haven't been under any burden, they've seen their chances of winning the competition grow over the years and now they greedily want those chances to grow again - by cutting off a few of the others.

TV brings the money..TV and sponsorship...not clubs. TV and spnsorship is Europe wide and it has no allegiance to any club or clubs just warm bodies on a seat watching the ad breaks.

Sadly, I have to differ about whether there is much life without a European Cup. I believe the halo effect brought by the Heineken Cup clearly raises the stature and interest in the regular league competitions. I think it is no mere coincidence that Rugby has grown massively with a European competition. The Heineken Cup brings in big money from tv, which only happens if there is large interest. And the knock-on effect supports growth in the leagues.

To be fair, the Premiership and Top 14 have been growing nicely and have their own identity. The Celtic League is doing great things but is still developing an identity beyond being what its' clubs do between European matches. But, to me, it is the European competition that binds them all together, and provides one Rugby identity (with very diverse supporter groups).

Therefore, I do not think we can predict the future without a European competition. Frankly, the damage would be huge. This is why, I believe the lack of European Rugby is unthinkable for all parties and why I believe a compromise of some kind will be reached. All parties need to respect other opinions and start negotiating in true good faith, not the nonsense we have seen so far.

was just pointing out that he sees rugby through Thomas Cook specs

That'd be the same Thomas Cook who created the travel business in a luxury excursion from Leicester to the exotic and fragrant shores of Loughborough?

Well, he had to do something as he waited for the complexes to be built in Lanzarote

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So an English teams plays a game in the Middle East and they're money grabbing barstewards. But PRO12 supportors talking about breaking into the US as good thing financially are ok?

Not at all, don't be so sensitive ... was just pointing out that he sees rugby through Thomas Cook specs Go for the rugby, stay for the apartment with a brilliant view of the pool.

I jolly well will be so sensitive. This is a topic that requires knee-jerk over-reaction comments and nothing else. As demostrated.

Not at all, don't be so sensitive ... was just pointing out that he sees rugby through Thomas Cook specs Wink Go for the rugby, stay for the apartment with a brilliant view of the pool.

And feck the poor barstuards who can't afford it or choose to feckless with their finances at their families' cost.

Strains of pre-2007 drifting in there I sense

Secretfly, that's a good point about the lure of exiting competitions drawing away players from the pro 12. But somehow I'm not sure that the Top 14 would be it. Super rugby would be the next level up.

The fact that financially pro rugby could survive without the h cup is significant if only to strengthen the negotiating hands of all the countries involved. One or two unions with no money worries being able to blackmail the rest would gradually destroy pro rugby across the poorer unions in Europe. If the unions can keep it afloat though there is more chance of a fair deal to all being thrashed out over the h cup because there will be a choice for the countries involved.

It's true that rugby has been increasing in popularity over the last decade but it is impossible to say whether or not this is because of the h cup. If it didn't exist the same result could have happened. Perhaps more promotion of the leagues would have had the same result. I love this competition and I hope that they sort it out for the years to come. But it is not the be-all and end-all that many think that it is.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So an English teams plays a game in the Middle East and they're money grabbing barstewards. But PRO12 supportors talking about breaking into the US as good thing financially are ok?

Not at all, don't be so sensitive ... was just pointing out that he sees rugby through Thomas Cook specs Go for the rugby, stay for the apartment with a brilliant view of the pool.

I jolly well will be so sensitive. This is a topic that requires knee-jerk over-reaction comments and nothing else. As demostrated.

I find this baffling, your debating the qualities of an RFU employee with an Irishman and you decide to attack the WRU, which has been widely criticised by everyone in Wales outside of the WRU!! Lewis is in exactly the same boat, greedy little **** who is happy to let the game die as long as the shareholders are making their profits!!

RE the Hcup, It'll be a huge loss to Welsh rugby, but I honestly think it might just be the catalyst that wakes the club game in Wales!!!

I the 4 regions can keep the majority of their playing staff, and produce their best teams week in week out, and mostly be competitive in the league against the best teams, then the love of the game might sparkle again!!!

The Welsh prem would also be boosted with a number of players not monopolised by the regions to sit in the stands week in week out, and the support for the clubs would finally start to trickle back.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So an English teams plays a game in the Middle East and they're money grabbing barstewards. But PRO12 supportors talking about breaking into the US as good thing financially are ok?

Not at all, don't be so sensitive ... was just pointing out that he sees rugby through Thomas Cook specs Go for the rugby, stay for the apartment with a brilliant view of the pool.

I jolly well will be so sensitive. This is a topic that requires knee-jerk over-reaction comments and nothing else. As demostrated.

I find this baffling, your debating the qualities of an RFU employee with an Irishman and you decide to attack the WRU, which has been widely criticised by everyone in Wales outside of the WRU!! Lewis is in exactly the same boat, greedy little **** who is happy to let the game die as long as the shareholders are making their profits!!

I'm not attacking Lewis. I'm (if anything) attacking double standards. Although I would say that Lewis is in charge of the WRU's governing of the regions and they're not happy (it seems). 'Thomas Cook' is in charge of general running of the Pro clubs in the premiership and they seem generally happy (or at least all a little unhappy which is probably as good as they'd ever get)

HammerofThunor wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So an English teams plays a game in the Middle East and they're money grabbing barstewards. But PRO12 supportors talking about breaking into the US as good thing financially are ok?

Not at all, don't be so sensitive ... was just pointing out that he sees rugby through Thomas Cook specs Go for the rugby, stay for the apartment with a brilliant view of the pool.

I jolly well will be so sensitive. This is a topic that requires knee-jerk over-reaction comments and nothing else. As demostrated.

I find this baffling, your debating the qualities of an RFU employee with an Irishman and you decide to attack the WRU, which has been widely criticised by everyone in Wales outside of the WRU!! Lewis is in exactly the same boat, greedy little **** who is happy to let the game die as long as the shareholders are making their profits!!

I'm not attacking Lewis. I'm (if anything) attacking double standards. Although I would say that Lewis is in charge of the WRU's governing of the regions and they're not happy (it seems). 'Thomas Cook' is in charge of general running of the Pro clubs in the premiership and they seem generally happy (or at least all a little unhappy which is probably as good as they'd ever get)

But it isn't double standards when Lewis has received far more criticism for his role, and bonus scheme than 'Tomo Cook' has. Infact Lewis is near hated by everyone outside of the WRU...

Did we just do a rebranding of McCafferty?

If it sticks, I'll be wanting my share of the rebranding fee!!

Gee, I'd be making a fortune if I could pick up on the little 606 deals I'm involved in.

I couldn't remember exactly what his name was. I'm happy to call him Thomas Cook from now on and will pass on 100% of associated funds to yourself.

As a Dragons fan,I can confirm that there is life without the H-Cup.It's shoite,mind!

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So an English teams plays a game in the Middle East and they're money grabbing barstewards. But PRO12 supportors talking about breaking into the US as good thing financially are ok?

Not at all, don't be so sensitive ... was just pointing out that he sees rugby through Thomas Cook specs Go for the rugby, stay for the apartment with a brilliant view of the pool.

I jolly well will be so sensitive. This is a topic that requires knee-jerk over-reaction comments and nothing else. As demostrated.

This reaction by HT makes me laugh. Fly points out something that is an example of an actual event that has happened that exemplifies the point he is making and HT counters it with an example on a speculation that hasn't and likely wont happen, to counter.


It always amazes me how easy English rugby enthusiasts are on 606v2 with the way that professional rugby is being run.

Every nation has problems, we all know that, but in other countries we are concerned about pro rugby organisations vs national bodies and are often divided in opinion between the two.

In England fans seem content with constantly backing the PRL and consider their national body some type of inconvenient archaic joke...?

Well you seem the clearly miss the point. I couldn't give a toss if they happen or not. It wasn't about the events themselves, but the response.

And no, I don't see anything fundementally wrong with the PRL or what it does. A few little tweaks potentially but I hope like hell they never run rugby they way I would. I don't have a clue.

Nice generalisation of english fans by the way. Just to let you know we're not all the same, nor do we all think the same. However, I would say that most are probably somewhere in between the unions and clubs and want a balance between the two. Since things seem to be pretty happy between the clubs and union it seems pretty easy to do at the moment (unless you support a championship club).