Why does everyone think the lions are just "power"?

Loads of Welsh in the squad but the Lions is far more than just bulk or power. There are many players in this squad with sublime skill and pace included. OK maybe Gatland is more focused with power when he's with Wales, but you can't knock 3 six nations tournament wins in 5 years. With the players at his disposal and coaches such as league legend Andy Farrell, there will be plenty or skill & variety.

You could pretty much field two types of team:

BULK STRENGTH POWER

Kearney
Cuthbert
Roberts
Tuilagi
North
Sexton
Phillips

Faletau
SOB
Warburton
POC
Gray
Jones
Hibbard
Healy

PRO SUPER SKILL MORE LIKELY TO BEAT AUSTRALIA (apparently) XV

Halfpenny
Maitland
BOD
Davies
Bowe
Farrell
Youngs

Heaslip
Tipuric
Croft
Parling
AWJ
Cole
Youngs
Jenkins

You are right about Gatland having skill in his team.... its whether or not he uses it or not. Play Roberts, Cuthbert, Phillips & Davies in your backline and the strategy will be the same as before... it may be enough to win a test match if they are surrounded by guys like BOD, O'Connell, Croft etc.... but it won't be enough to win 2 in 3.

The skill element really revolves around 1 guy... Jonny Sexton. He's only just back from injury and I could easily see Farrell taking his place if he performs better on tour. If that happens then route 1 is all they have and it doesn't matter who he has in his backline he won't be able to get what is required to win 2 in 3 matches.

fa0019 wrote:You are right about Gatland having skill in his team.... its whether or not he uses it or not. Play Roberts, Cuthbert, Phillips & Davies in your backline and the strategy will be the same as before... it may be enough to win a test match if they are surrounded by guys like BOD, O'Connell, Croft etc.... but it won't be enough to win 2 in 3.

The skill element really revolves around 1 guy... Jonny Sexton. He's only just back from injury and I could easily see Farrell taking his place if he performs better on tour. If that happens then route 1 is all they have and it doesn't matter who he has in his backline he won't be able to get what is required to win 2 in 3 matches.

That is actually a very good point FA0019, and the first one that has made me think. The big route one low risk style play may be enough to win the first test, but then dealing with Aus reaction to that is a whole different ball game. We know how easily gameplans and players are found out through analysts, and counter strategies arise, it's wether Gatland has a series plan as opposed to a game plan!!

To answer the title question, people think the Lions are just power because they can see a backline including Philips, Roberts, Cuthbert and North lining up against Oz. No other reasons.

Bathman_in_London wrote:To answer the title question, people think the Lions are just power because they can see a backline including Philips, Roberts, Cuthbert and North lining up against Oz. No other reasons.

Tuilagi not included in that?

Ruddy well should be. Cuthbert and North are more than Just power although North has disappointed me recently.

TJ wrote:Ruddy well should be. Cuthbert and North are more than Just power although North has disappointed me recently.

He was awfull last week, I don't think the WRU/Scarlets/Northampton debacle has done him any favours, I expect him to put that behind him on tour though!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:To answer the title question, people think the Lions are just power because they can see a backline including Philips, Roberts, Cuthbert and North lining up against Oz. No other reasons.

Tuilagi not included in that?

I think mist people assume BOD will start instead of him?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

TJ wrote:Ruddy well should be. Cuthbert and North are more than Just power although North has disappointed me recently.

He was awfull last week, I don't think the WRU/Scarlets/Northampton debacle has done him any favours, I expect him to put that behind him on tour though!

I was hoping he would become a more rounded / complete player than he has - although he is still young indeed. Has playing internationals from such a young age actually hindered his development?

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

TJ wrote:Ruddy well should be. Cuthbert and North are more than Just power although North has disappointed me recently.

He was awfull last week, I don't think the WRU/Scarlets/Northampton debacle has done him any favours, I expect him to put that behind him on tour though!

I was hoping he would become a more rounded / complete player than he has - although he is still young indeed. Has playing internationals from such a young age actually hindered his development?

North seems to only really want to put his body on the line for the international side, last weekend he seemed to have one eye on Lions selection and wanted to do things himself to stand out as opposed to being a team player. I think he is the first of a new generation of Welsh internationals, that will IMO be more like cricketers (international only) than most would like.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

TJ wrote:Ruddy well should be. Cuthbert and North are more than Just power although North has disappointed me recently.

He was awfull last week, I don't think the WRU/Scarlets/Northampton debacle has done him any favours, I expect him to put that behind him on tour though!

I was hoping he would become a more rounded / complete player than he has - although he is still young indeed. Has playing internationals from such a young age actually hindered his development?

North seems to only really want to put his body on the line for the international side, last weekend he seemed to have one eye on Lions selection and wanted to do things himself to stand out as opposed to being a team player. I think he is the first of a new generation of Welsh internationals, that will IMO be more like cricketers (international only) than most would like.

You can see where TJ is coming from though, he promised the world when he made his debut, but hasn't developed from that strike running kid. But then he is only what 21? is he the youngest tourist? Weird that he's pretty experienced at such a young age!!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just cleaned this thread up, lets atop all this nonsense about what nationality you are or other posters are and keep it on topic, are the lions more than just power.

Jees you say one thing about North and....

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just cleaned this thread up, lets atop all this nonsense about what nationality you are or other posters are and keep it on topic, are the lions more than just power.

Thanks




It does really come down to the selected team and what tactics we play.

The Ba bas could be a good indication

Scarlet - if my post was removed then the OP needs to be cleaned up with his false accusations of jealousy . It really is tiresome to get this all the time

Riskysports wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just cleaned this thread up, lets atop all this nonsense about what nationality you are or other posters are and keep it on topic, are the lions more than just power.

Thanks




It does really come down to the selected team and what tactics we play.

The Ba bas could be a good indication

The more I see that Ba Baa's the more worried I get!!!

Bluesman - I swear if I have to read another poster moaning about someone disliking a player down to what country they play for I end up having to retrieve my monitor from wherever it lands after I throw it through the window!

As for North, the lad has bags of potential, and really should have kicked on big time by now. When the whole Saints/WRU/Blues(possible)/Scarlets issues were going on I watched a video tribute on youtube to him, and then one to Lomu and thought jaysus North is really that good. But the truth is he tends only to be putting in those sort of performances for the national side. If he gets in the Lions starting team, I think he will be one of the stand out players of the tour, and I have no doubt about it, however I do wonder if he would be better off being 'dropped' by Wales every now and again to remind him that club form matters too.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just cleaned this thread up, lets atop all this nonsense about what nationality you are or other posters are and keep it on topic, are the lions more than just power.

Thanks




It does really come down to the selected team and what tactics we play.

The Ba bas could be a good indication

The more I see that Ba Baa's the more worried I get!!!

Yes, that is shaping up to be a tasty side

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Bluesman - I swear if I have to read another poster moaning about someone disliking a player down to what country they play for I end up having to retrieve my monitor from wherever it lands after I throw it through the window!

As for North, the lad has bags of potential, and really should have kicked on big time by now. When the whole Saints/WRU/Blues(possible)/Scarlets issues were going on I watched a video tribute on youtube to him, and then one to Lomu and thought jaysus North is really that good. But the truth is he tends only to be putting in those sort of performances for the national side. If he gets in the Lions starting team, I think he will be one of the stand out players of the tour, and I have no doubt about it, however I do wonder if he would be better off being 'dropped' by Wales every now and again to remind him that club form matters too.

Not from next season on though surely? Why should Northampton not suffer like the Scarlets did?!

Riskysports wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just cleaned this thread up, lets atop all this nonsense about what nationality you are or other posters are and keep it on topic, are the lions more than just power.

Thanks




It does really come down to the selected team and what tactics we play.

The Ba bas could be a good indication

The more I see that Ba Baa's the more worried I get!!!

Yes, that is shaping up to be a tasty side

Shame more grudge players aren't there, Best and Robshaw wouldve loved a crack at the lions tour, Interesting to see how Paul James goes, and Hook.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just cleaned this thread up, lets atop all this nonsense about what nationality you are or other posters are and keep it on topic, are the lions more than just power.

Thanks




It does really come down to the selected team and what tactics we play.

The Ba bas could be a good indication

The more I see that Ba Baa's the more worried I get!!!

Yes, that is shaping up to be a tasty side

Shame more grudge players aren't there, Best and Robshaw wouldve loved a crack at the lions tour, Interesting to see how Paul James goes, and Hook.

Would have made an interesting debate if they happened to injury their opposite number

What other 'grudge' players would people pick, with the exception of Robshaw and Best I think most other selections were good.

Hook has done nothing to warant a slot IMO.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Shame more grudge players aren't there, Best and Robshaw wouldve loved a crack at the lions tour, Interesting to see how Paul James goes, and Hook.

Yeah it would be good to see the Lions 'rejects' (not sure what to call them, the hopefuls that maybe should have toured etc), like Robshaw, Best, Laidlaw, Brown, James, and Biggar (but Hook is fair enough) to have a crack at the real Lions, maybe that would also be a plus for the Lions, as those boys will need to prove their worthy of the Lions shirt, and the 'rejects' will want to prove they are worthy of a call it if/when they are needed.

I could actuallky imagine Best biting Hartley/Hibbards nose off!!!

Or Hook decking Tuilagi...

James
Best
Murray
Launchbury
Hines
Robshaw
Brown
Wood
Laidlaw
Biggar
Visser
Hook
Scott
Ashton
Byrne

That would be a pretty decent looking team, and would definately be a tough warm up game!!

Slightly off topic but slightly on...........

Not a big fan of a UTUBE montage but I watched one of Jon "Foxy" Davies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVfQlreOnd8

Two things from that little effort...... firstly its amazing how many times I saw him wearing the 12 shirt, secondly this guy is so much more than brawn, he has a great left peg, sidesteps like the best of them, superb balance off both feet, SPEED WOW, much better now in defence and distribution but most importantly scores tries for fun. Very skilful player who looks and runs like a bull but has the mindset of magician.

Mr Gatland do us a favour pencil this guy in first even before your captain and pencil him in at 12, with either BOD or Tuilagi outside him.

And that slyly comes back fully on topic. I think a lot of the selected backs have subtle skills but it all depends how quick the ball comes to Sexton, and that will mean the forwards protecting Phillips or Youngs (or Murray) and providing them with space. I would say the backs generally are fast and robust who will power at speed rather than deft and fleet footed, but nevertheless they have got bags of skill.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
James
Best
Murray
Launchbury
Hines
Robshaw
Brown
Wood
Laidlaw
Biggar
Visser
Hook
Scott
Ashton
Byrne

That would be a pretty decent looking team, and would definately be a tough warm up game!!

I agree bluesman a pretty good team indeed.... I think Ryan Grant, Ken Owens and Ryan Jones would be jockeying in the queue for a crack as well, Also swap Scott and Hook around as Matty is too slow for outside centre

I for one am actually looking forward to seeing this baabaa game as sadly the gloss has been taken off these games for me in recent times. I also hope that they play with the baabaa spirit.

I think you may be getting hung up on the word power and are inferring that as slow but big. I think the lions pack has power in it but also mobility. What's wrong with that? Similarly there is size or power in the backs but also plenty of pace too. I think too many people infer plodding for power. NZ for me has a mix of power and pace and don't think we get upset with the power tag as nor indeed Sa does. Power comes in many different forms but it is a weapon. The lions are not just power but it gets emphasized because its something Oz probably lacks to some extent. Their scissors can be beat with your rock. Flaunt it not deny it!

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
James
Best
Murray
Launchbury
Hines
Robshaw
Brown
Wood
Laidlaw
Biggar
Visser
Hook
Scott
Ashton
Byrne

That would be a pretty decent looking team, and would definately be a tough warm up game!!

I agree bluesman a pretty good team indeed.... I think Ryan Grant, Ken Owens and Ryan Jones would be jockeying in the queue for a crack as well, Also swap Scott and Hook around as Matty is too slow for outside centre

I thought he was quite quick for a centre? Maybe I'm thinking of DeLuca

I don't like Hook at 13, but I suppose Barritt can come in at 13 and Hook to FB?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I for one am actually looking forward to seeing this baabaa game as sadly the gloss has been taken off these games for me in recent times. I also hope that they play with the baabaa spirit.

I think you may be getting hung up on the word power and are inferring that as slow but big. I think the lions pack has power in it but also mobility. What's wrong with that? Similarly there is size or power in the backs but also plenty of pace too. I think too many people infer plodding for power. NZ for me has a mix of power and pace and don't think we get upset with the power tag as nor indeed Sa does. Power comes in many different forms but it is a weapon. The lions are not just power but it gets emphasized because its something Oz probably lacks to some extent. Their scissors can be beat with your rock. Flaunt it not deny it!

See power is a combination of velocity and strength, so when I think power I have to think speed and strength, of hich the lions have plenty, but so do most other teams.

Youngs for example is very quick, yet small and bounces around a bit, not to mention struggling in the scrum, so Gatland has selected his dynamism over Bests strength in the tight, and Owens power game all over.

Speed also covers many facets. It's not just how quick you are but how quick you do things. The speed of passing the speed of the breakdown the speed of movement. Nz and Australia both have speed for example but its used in different ways. Nz wants speed of movement to seek width and can quickly link the forwards with the backs. The lions can use Tipuric on this capacity and that has nothing to do with power but everything to do with pace. Similarly the wallabies can clear quick ruck ball and use speed of passing and running to outsmart the defence. AAC is a big boy and can use power so they are by no means one dimensional but they lack size in players like joc or cooper so must seek other ways of getting an advantage. It's tactical chess movements to overwhelm your opponent. Neither Power or pace do a gane plan justice but they do represent various ways of getting that advantage.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Speed also covers many facets. It's not just how quick you are but how quick you do things. The speed of passing the speed of the breakdown the speed of movement. Nz and Australia both have speed for example but its used in different ways. Nz wants speed of movement to seek width and can quickly link the forwards with the backs. The lions can use Tipuric on this capacity and that has nothing to do with power but everything to do with pace. Similarly the wallabies can clear quick ruck ball and use speed of passing and running to outsmart the defence. AAC is a big boy and can use power so they are by no means one dimensional but they lack size in players like joc or cooper so must seek other ways of getting an advantage. It's tactical chess movements to overwhelm your opponent. Neither Power or pace do a gane plan justice but they do represent various ways of getting that advantage.

Well speed is determined by numerous things anyway, Acceleration, optimum velocity, agility, without mentioning the direction changes, decceleration etc...

Your right though it will be a chess game, I'm hoping Gatland uses the physical presence without resorting to headbutting the chess board, it's a balancing act!

flyhalffactory wrote:Slightly off topic but slightly on...........

Not a big fan of a UTUBE montage but I watched one of Jon "Foxy" Davies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVfQlreOnd8

Two things from that little effort...... firstly its amazing how many times I saw him wearing the 12 shirt, secondly this guy is so much more than brawn, he has a great left peg, sidesteps like the best of them, superb balance off both feet, SPEED WOW, much better now in defence and distribution but most importantly scores tries for fun. Very skilful player who looks and runs like a bull but has the mindset of magician.

Mr Gatland do us a favour pencil this guy in first even before your captain and pencil him in at 12, with either BOD or Tuilagi outside him.

And that slyly comes back fully on topic. I think a lot of the selected backs have subtle skills but it all depends how quick the ball comes to Sexton, and that will mean the forwards protecting Phillips or Youngs (or Murray) and providing them with space. I would say the backs generally are fast and robust who will power at speed rather than deft and fleet footed, but nevertheless they have got bags of skill.

I tend to agree re JD2. He does have quick feet and deceptive acceleration, allowing him to create space in close quarters and expoloit it. This makes him IMO more effective at 12 than at 13. Gatland though clearly sees him as a 13 and he not a great one for changing his mind.

As far as montage dideos goes thats pretty weak.

There are a lot of run ins, the try V Tonga where he fluffs a 23 man overlap and hits the ground (rescued by Williams pick up), and a lot of good play against some very poor defences in the Rabo.

He's a good player but his distribution isn't good enough for 12, and he doesn't command enough attention there either, it's easy to see why Gatland prefers him at 13.

His defence has got a lot better, as have his hands, but as an international 12 I'm not sure at all, he does a good job at 13, he is big strong quick and can change direction well.

Also, I believe that the Scarlets still do, definately used to, play a left and right centre as opposed to an inside and outside centre. So 12 and 13 are just shirt numbers and not actual positions.

Webslinger........... I certainly think that was the case when Regan "Distribution" King wore the 13 shirt who in my mind was one of the best distributors in the then Magners League the only player who came close to him was The Orange One, the case perhaps is not so with Scott Williams.

Bluesman
I don't think JDs passing game is any worse (or better) than the Docs, and as Mr G has only selected one "specialist" 12 then Foxy should seriously be considered

neither roberts or jd2 are distributors, the only player apart from Williams who has any pedigree for distribution is Hook. His banishment from welsh rugby tells you everything you need to know about wales midfield tactics and since i don't see any options in the Lions squad then there will be little choice but for the Doc to bash it up and hope that Tipuric and Warburton can do the rest.