Lions only have one 10

First topic message reminder :

Having watched the Sarries - Northampton game yesterday anyone else scared that we have only one 10? He was pretty awful (again) and definitely not Lions class.

majesticimperialman wrote:What about Charlie Hodgson?

He could be called up. he is playing better than Farrell is right now.

Hodgson was one of the small handful of players - and probably the only Englishman - to have a decent Lions tour in 2005. He got the man of the match award against Taranaki and may well have deserved to be a Test starter. Wouldn't have made a difference to the result, mind you, and it was eight years ago.

Old Charlie had a few good games in an England shirt but after a season the big teams worked him out and he became very erratic. Then of course he got injured, and doesn't look like he's recovered psychologically. He is a very good club level player and has a lot more to offer Saracens.

Farrell will have a strong pack in front of him.... he will also have backrow players like Smith, Hooper & Auelua charging into him.

Whenever he plays as sole receiver... he struggles. England have built their team around that.... Had they kept Flood at 10 then I doubt they would have gone with Goode at 15 as his benefits would be far attractive, Flood for all his faults can run a game on his own. Meaning Brown would have taken the jersey and England would have had a proper winger.

To accomodate Farrell, Lancaster had to re-jig his backline (which caused them to be unbalanced).

The Lions will learn this as the tour goes on... may be good enough for the dirt-trackers but it won't be good enough for the tests. If Farrell plays with no alternative receiver to play off, he will struggle and the lions will lose IMO.

Madigan, Hook, Hodgson, Flood, Biggar, Wilkinson, Henson, Goode, Patchell, Laidlaw

all of them I would rather see start at 10 over Owen Farrell

He is absolutely useless and has no attacking rugby brain whatsover.

He can kick goals slightly above adequately, lets pressure crack him, and his out of hand kicking isn't even impressive.

Don't get me started on his distribution, though in fairness he is a very good tackling 10.

Poor ROG

fa0019 wrote:Farrell will have a strong pack in front of him.... he will also have backrow players like Smith, Hooper & Auelua charging into him.

Whenever he plays as sole receiver... he struggles. England have built their team around that.... Had they kept Flood at 10 then I doubt they would have gone with Goode at 15 as his benefits would be far attractive, Flood for all his faults can run a game on his own. Meaning Brown would have taken the jersey and England would have had a proper winger.

To accomodate Farrell, Lancaster had to re-jig his backline (which caused them to be unbalanced).

The Lions will learn this as the tour goes on... may be good enough for the dirt-trackers but it won't be good enough for the tests. If Farrell plays with no alternative receiver to play off, he will struggle and the lions will lose IMO.

This is actually a really good point

England played Goode to take pressure off Farrell as an attacking playmaker - the Lions don't have any 10 or 12 players to do that, short of BOD stepping in it could be a problem.

I guess Phillips will take more control - he has been doing it with Wales pretty much since Stephen Jones left, sheparding Preistland and Biggar into 10 shirt.

Speaking of which, Stephen Jones for the Lions!

I cannot help thinking that the Lions is the "BIGGEST " tournament for Gatland before the 2015 RWC.

Yes he as done well with Wales since taking over...but being the coach of the Lions and winning in Australia will be a big boost for chance of getting the job of coaching the All Blacks

This is make or break for Gatland, if he wants to coach the All Blacks.

So by taking charge of the Lions he hopes too win the series for his CV for the All Black job. SO WHY? as he left himself short of back up 10, and not much scope in the centre spots?

I really do not think he as thought much about his selections to be honest. but then what do i know?

GunsGerms wrote:Not too worried about it. There is plenty of rugby to be played between now and the test matches. There are always injuries leading up to and during the tour. Sexton will be targeted by the McRaes of this world and back ups may need to be drafted in but Id rather have Sexton and Farrell than Cooper and Barnes.

I really don'y know what to say to that

Though Farrell's form may not be strong at club level he has the style that will suit the Lions strengths which he doesnt have at club level. I dont believe he would have been selected by Gatland if he was not the targetted test player- wy take Farrell for mid week matches?

For me though the rave for Sexton is there his lack of test matches this year combined with the coming off injury and only club form to get right he'll struggle with both the pace and intensity come test time, particularly with the current pace of the Australian game and grounds, the sxv being much closer to what will be required during the tests at the same venues than NH club rugby.

He's marginal at best as a world 10 and starts off the back mark. Punters here wont agree at this point particularly when it seems high hopes are being pinned on the one player, and no obvious back up should he fail to handle the extra pace or re-injure- both very possible outcomes.

Farrell is one that will hide behind his pack all day and play the right tunes when needed. Sexton is a different type of player that needs to express himself and unfortunately, he'll be trying to do that amongst a world already full of peacocks.

Biggar is the obvious one to be called up. I really hope its not Wilkinson - that would be a mistake. His day is gone.

Hogg will let no one down but I really hope he doesn't have to get called into ten. Remeber the played 10 in age grade rugby

His form and confidence right now is so good mind you that he could probably do anything ( although he did miss a kick to draw the Pro12 playoff)

Farell will surely be midweek. Sexton is clearly the far better player

Taylorman wrote:Though Farrell's form may not be strong at club level he has the style that will suit the Lions strengths which he doesnt have at club level. I dont believe he would have been selected by Gatland if he was not the targetted test player- wy take Farrell for mid week matches?

For me though the rave for Sexton is there his lack of test matches this year combined with the coming off injury and only club form to get right he'll struggle with both the pace and intensity come test time, particularly with the current pace of the Australian game and grounds, the sxv being much closer to what will be required during the tests at the same venues than NH club rugby.

He's marginal at best as a world 10 and starts off the back mark. Punters here wont agree at this point particularly when it seems high hopes are being pinned on the one player, and no obvious back up should he fail to handle the extra pace or re-injure- both very possible outcomes.

Farrell is one that will hide behind his pack all day and play the right tunes when needed. Sexton is a different type of player that needs to express himself and unfortunately, he'll be trying to do that amongst a world already full of peacocks.

I have no idea what this means but I can't see Farrell starting ahead of Sexton unless JS's form falls off a cliff.I can't wait to see him show what he can do now he's free of the Ireland setup,he's gonna set the world alight over the next few years imo.

TJ wrote:Farell will surely be midweek. Sexton is clearly the far better player

At this level, we'll see whether its gameplan or player skills thats required here. If Sexton is the best on offer, it doesnt fare well for them, not at all...but we'll have to see. I think his confidence levels will struggle when he tries to play his normal game.

Taylorman wrote:

TJ wrote:Farell will surely be midweek. Sexton is clearly the far better player

At this level, we'll see whether its gameplan or player skills thats required here. If Sexton is the best on offer, it doesnt fare well for them, not at all...but we'll have to see. I think his confidence levels will struggle when he tries to play his normal game.

You think Sexton can't execute a gameplan?

Sexton can do everything farrell can and more.

I see your point - but Farell is badly out of form - inthis form he is lucky to be on the lane and I wouldn't be suprised if Hogg or A.N.Other took over from him.

Maybe he will recover his confidence but his "iceman" persona has been badly damaged in recent weeks with him going to pieces several times ( although each time he did pull it back)

Gatland today,


"It's been tough for Owen but he has shown in the past that he is one of those players who responds really well to any adversity or criticism and comes back fighting better and stronger," said Gatland. "That is one of the reasons why we like him so much. We're sure he'll react really well to that criticism from outside and I'm sure he will do well on tour. The Saracens result also gives us an opportunity to work with him in the next couple of weeks prior to the first game."

Jonny Sexton's ongoing commitments with Leinster has ensured Farrell will be the starting Lions No10 for the tour's opening game against the Barbarians in Hong Kong on 1 June, by no means a low-key start for a young player enduring a sudden crisis of confidence.

Taylorman wrote:

TJ wrote:Farell will surely be midweek. Sexton is clearly the far better player

At this level, we'll see whether its gameplan or player skills thats required here. If Sexton is the best on offer, it doesnt fare well for them, not at all...but we'll have to see. I think his confidence levels will struggle when he tries to play his normal game.

NZ press is so Anglo centric its hardly surprising that Kiwis are more familiar with Farrell than Sexton. Also Farrell was involved when England trounced NZ so perhaps that helps his mistique in NZ.

However, most people that are familiar with both players would agree that Sexton has more strings to his bow and a better player right now. Who knows though Farrell may turn out to be better at some stage.

Never been a massive Farrell fan, and Sexton will deservedly be 1st choice, but all the Farrell-bashing is ridiculous, the kid is only young and has already steered England to a victory over NZ. When has Biggar, Madigan, Hook or whoever else "should be ahead", played in such a high-profile game?

chargedowntotheface wrote:Never been a massive Farrell fan, and Sexton will deservedly be 1st choice, but all the Farrell-bashing is ridiculous, the kid is only young and has already steered England to a victory over NZ. When has Biggar, Madigan, Hook or whoever else "should be ahead", played in such a high-profile game?

I agree, he has done enough to deserve a spot in the Lions squad. His goal kicking in particular is outstanding. He will play his part.

Madigan and Hook offer something different so probably would have been good third choice options. Biggar is a hybrid of Farrell and Sexton and has a great all round game but missed out this time. He is still a quality player. His day will come.

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

TJ wrote:Farell will surely be midweek. Sexton is clearly the far better player

At this level, we'll see whether its gameplan or player skills thats required here. If Sexton is the best on offer, it doesnt fare well for them, not at all...but we'll have to see. I think his confidence levels will struggle when he tries to play his normal game.

NZ press is so Anglo centric its hardly surprising that Kiwis are more familiar with Farrell than Sexton. Also Farrell was involved when England trounced NZ so perhaps that helps his mistique in NZ.

However, most people that are familiar with both players would agree that Sexton has more strings to his bow and a better player right now. Who knows though Farrell may turn out to be better at some stage.

That may be true Guns given the number of times Sextons been involved in NZ thumpings but its also a matter of familiarity with the Oz style of play in the matches that really count that perhaps eludes NH fans, in that other than World cups do you see them at their best, and then only fleetingly. And against the top 3, Sexton has been no standout either, so I'm assuming this familiarity you speak of is limited to NH form and foe.

And its not an anglo centric thing... to me the 4 sides are what they are. The mere reason I think Gatland will pump for Farrell is because he is more likely to play to the 10 man tune that whether NH fans like it or not, will be their best chance of winning the series. Obviously Farrells disappointed since gaining the initial plaudits but its assumed his confidence will return within the Lions environment and a more comprehensive side and support system around him.

Sexton may have outpointed Farrell but I don't believe the way hes done it (more through Farrels demise than purely Sextons club form) is what Gatland expected or wanted but I've doubts that Sexton has always been Gatlands clear fave at 10 for the entire last 12 months.

chargedowntotheface wrote:Never been a massive Farrell fan, and Sexton will deservedly be 1st choice, but all the Farrell-bashing is ridiculous, the kid is only young and has already steered England to a victory over NZ. When has Biggar, Madigan, Hook or whoever else "should be ahead", played in such a high-profile game?

Wales v England in a Championship decider is a tad more high profile than a one off friendly.

I do think Sexton being fit and in form is likely to be a key to the Lions' chances in the tests.

Farrell is good as far as he goes, but he has his limitations. He is still only 21, after all.

fa0019 wrote:Whenever he plays as sole receiver... he struggles. England have built their team around that.... Had they kept Flood at 10 then I doubt they would have gone with Goode at 15 as his benefits would be far attractive, Flood for all his faults can run a game on his own. Meaning Brown would have taken the jersey and England would have had a proper winger.

To accomodate Farrell, Lancaster had to re-jig his backline (which caused them to be unbalanced).

If Farrell plays with no alternative receiver to play off, he will struggle and the lions will lose IMO.

Maybe Gatland sees Stuart Hogg playing the second receiver role Alex Goode plays for England.

Taylorman wrote:That may be true Guns given the number of times Sextons been involved in NZ thumpings but its also a matter of familiarity with the Oz style of play in the matches that really count that perhaps eludes NH fans, in that other than World cups do you see them at their best, and then only fleetingly.

Nobody cares about Sexton's record against NZ. By your logic Freddy Burns should be touring as he is the only out half in world rugby with a 100% record v NZ. The Lions are playing Australia so NZ arent relevant. Sexton also outclassed the Aussies at the last world cup when ireland beat them so your comments dont make much sense.

Taylorman wrote:

And against the top 3, Sexton has been no standout either, so I'm assuming this familiarity you speak of is limited to NH form and foe.

Sexton has a better record v "the top three" than any other NH OH. He has beaten both SA and Australia at OH and come very close v NZ losing by only two points in the second test last summer.

Taylorman wrote:
And its not an anglo centric thing... to me the 4 sides are what they are. The mere reason I think Gatland will pump for Farrell is because he is more likely to play to the 10 man tune that whether NH fans like it or not, will be their best chance of winning the series. Obviously Farrells disappointed since gaining the initial plaudits but its assumed his confidence will return within the Lions environment and a more comprehensive side and support system around him.

That may well be the case but that doesnt mean that Farrell is a better player which seems to be what you were implying. Besides the NZ media is ridiculously Anglo centric.

Taylorman wrote:


Sexton may have outpointed Farrell but I don't believe the way hes done it (more through Farrels demise than purely Sextons club form) is what Gatland expected or wanted but I've doubts that Sexton has always been Gatlands clear fave at 10 for the entire last 12 months.

Out pointed Farrell in what? Farrell has only played for England since 2012. Sexton has been playing for Ireland since 2009 and Leinster since 2007 and as a result is a more accomplished, experienced player. Farrell seems to be developing nicely but despite what you or even Gatland may ultimatly think Sexton it is generally assumed is a better player.



Thats not to say Farrell wont turn out to be a fine player but he is only 21 and still improving.

Yeah ok I'll go with that and he did have a very good second test last year. For me it then comes down to whether he'll have the goods to direct play successfully vs Oz. I just think he's a little lightweight in that respect but fair comment- I'll reserve that for the tests.

Cooper will be a handful for him as a comparison. He can also do a lot more behind a beaten pack. Whether they pick him is the only question but all the signs are there that he has his swagger back.

Taylorman wrote:Yeah ok I'll go with that and he did have a very good second test last year. For me it then comes down to whether he'll have the goods to direct play successfully vs Oz. I just think he's a little lightweight in that respect but fair comment- I'll reserve that for the tests.

What? You kinda agree with me!?! Now I feel bad for my abrasive response. What are these mind tricks.

Taylorman wrote:
Cooper will be a handful for him as a comparison. He can also do a lot more behind a beaten pack. Whether they pick him is the only question but all the signs are there that he has his swagger back.

I know some people really rate Cooper but I cant see it really. I have seen him do some lovely tricks for the Reds but rarely has he been outstanding for Australia. In any case its unclear as to whether he will even be selected as his spats with Deans have been well documented. To add to that when was the last time Cooper actually played test rugby? Correct me if Im wrong but hasnt he only played one maybe two games for Australia in the last two years?

Beale another headcase has had more caps at 10 for Australia than anyone else in the last two years but he too probably wont be selected.

Hardly the best prep for a Lions tour.

Cooper was out last year through the World cup injury. Prior to that his form went south with his putting pressure on himself via his NZ liasons with McCaw, the media etc.

Prior to that and more recently he was sublime in the position albeit it for only a few tests. I think all this will make him a more accomplished player and is a must for the series. Fact is when Cooper goes well so does Oz and they have tried all sorts to replace him with mixed results.

From reports Cooper and Deans are talking and its now down to Coopers performances which with Genia have been more than enough. Next couple of Reds matches we will now. I'd say a 70% bet at the mo.

Beales checked into rehab so yes its a grubby world out there for some. He may struggle as his form was indifferent anyway.

The main concern for the Lions should be the vast turnaround in player availability, lower injury rate combined with the emergence and development of some exciting talent. Oz domestic rugby is by far the best improved this year, certainly in the SH.

Taylorman wrote:Cooper was out last year through the World cup injury. Prior to that his form went south with his putting pressure on himself via his NZ liasons with McCaw, the media etc.

Prior to that and more recently he was sublime in the position albeit it for only a few tests. I think all this will make him a more accomplished player and is a must for the series. Fact is when Cooper goes well so does Oz and they have tried all sorts to replace him with mixed results.

From reports Cooper and Deans are talking and its now down to Coopers performances which with Genia have been more than enough. Next couple of Reds matches we will now. I'd say a 70% bet at the mo.

Beales checked into rehab so yes its a grubby world out there for some. He may struggle as his form was indifferent anyway.

The main concern for the Lions should be the vast turnaround in player availability, lower injury rate combined with the emergence and development of some exciting talent. Oz domestic rugby is by far the best improved this year, certainly in the SH.

Ok I agree with you then for the most part anyway.

I have no doubt Beale will turn things around. I do think that he and Ioane at their peak have been Australia's most influential backs in the last few years. Thats just my opinion though.

Yep its looking like Genia, Cooper, Lelo, AAC, Ioane, Folau and maybe Mogg now if JOC and Beale are out. I like Rod Davies as well. Not a big Mogg fan yet as I havnt watched him enough. The counter attack/ injection into the line from Beale needs to be replaced so I'd take whoevers best at that.

Folau's the big improver but its not tst level and I suspect hes getting much more room than he will vs the Lions. So a bit of a risk with 3 newbies. Losing JOC is a major.

Yep JOC is without doubt a blow as is fielding three dubutants in the backs v the Lions a risk.

The challenge for the Lions is always how to get 4 seperate groups of players to gel together in one team.

However, it is starting to look like the Aussies will be faced with a similar problem whereby some of backs will probably have never all played together before.

Re: Farrell he does have an advantage over Sexton in that he will be starting at OH v the Barbarians in Hong Kong (Sexton will be playing for Leinster) and Gatland has already said that the starting 15 in this match will have a head start on all other test match contenders.

GunsGerms wrote:Yep JOC is without doubt a blow as is fielding three dubutants in the backs v the Lions a risk.

The challenge for the Lions is always how to get 4 seperate groups of players to gel together in one team.

However, it is starting to look like the Aussies will be faced with a similar problem whereby some of backs will probably have never all played together before.

Re: Farrell he does have an advantage over Sexton in that he will be starting at OH v the Barbarians in Hong Kong (Sexton will be playing for Leinster) and Gatland has already said that the starting 15 in this match will have a head start on all other test match contenders.

The only thing that will give Farrell an advantage over Sexton is a complete Talent Transplant.

dragonbreath wrote:
The only thing that will give Farrell an advantage over Sexton is a complete Talent Transplant.

Youre only saying that because youre Welsh. He isnt that bad.

GunsGerms wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:
The only thing that will give Farrell an advantage over Sexton is a complete Talent Transplant.

Youre only saying that because youre Welsh. He isnt that bad.

A fit Sexton is better than Farrell. But Farrell's a good defender, has a decent kicking game, and let's face it you don't have to be the greatest passer in the world to shift the ball on to the current phase's designated bosh-it-up merchant

I was at Farrell's first pro game, for Sarries against Scarlets, when he was 17. He was very impressive in terms of composure that day, and played really well (I think he was in the centre).

The trouble (for me) with Farrell, is that he isn't a rookie with 2 caps. He has 15 or 16 caps to his name, and God knows how many for his club. To my mind, he hasn't progressed at all this season, and in fact, has possibly regressed slightly, when you consider that his only main strength - his goal kicking - has shown to be erratic when under pressure. This wasn't the case previously.
He is great defensively, brave and strong, and has a decent eye for a chip through, which I assume comes from his heavily rugby league background.
He does not, however, offer any threat whatsoever with the ball in hand, and isn't particularly General-esque (whatever you take that to be) in the middle of the field.
He is also prone to a bit of nonsense, his later shoulder barges becoming more and more a feature of his game.
I quite like him though, and I don't think his lack of genius comes from a lack of effort, I think he'll try really hard for the Lions, and it may be the making of him. Personally, I think another 10 will be flown out, hopefully Hook or Biggar, and they will help to steer the ship.
We're all Lions now boys.

Personally, I think another 10 will be flown out, hopefully Hook or Biggar, and they will help to steer the ship.
We're all Lions now boys.

I dont think that anybody will be flown out, unless their is some serious injury.

And what with Hook playing for the Baabaas, i dont think he will even be considerd.

GunsGerms wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:
The only thing that will give Farrell an advantage over Sexton is a complete Talent Transplant.

Youre only saying that because youre Welsh. He isnt that bad.

No on this occasion I am afraid that it is just a plain fact. At his very best he is a average player, when he slips below his best he is a very very ordinary player as we have been starkly reminded in the last few weeks.

I concede that the pool of talent from which Gatland had to fish is shallow and that his actual selection is not outrageous in that context, but that doesn't really help us, it merely highlights the lack of quality 10s in the NH. France don't have one either remember. It is hard to recall when a player with quite as little talent last pulled on the famous shirt.

I have always thought Wilkinson overrated but even I can see he is 100 times the player Farrell is. I never thought I would see the day that I prayed for Jonny to change his mind.

Gatland is a cunning old fox, surely he must see the folly of this two 10 policy and have a trick up his sleeve, Well I bloody hope he has anyway

DAN BIGGAR.

Bizarre thread.. Disappointing in some ways.

Lions tours have strange twists and turns .... let's see what happens.

Re: Farrrell or any player Lions player, anyone who has had a thought of condemnation for their least favourite players pass through their consciousness, might end up loving them and eating their words .. or at least their thoughts ... which is a bit weird.

gents


jonny or dan will figure


if sexton is seen as test 10 of has to cover the bench, but of will start midweek leaving ho to cover bench....hogg? no i think not as he will be starting 15.


gats is up to something

I am shocked that the decision to take only 2 players in the most pivotal position in rugby on the most intense long tour still going has come across as a decision that is at best naive...

GunsGerms wrote:Re: Farrell he does have an advantage over Sexton in that he will be starting at OH v the Barbarians in Hong Kong (Sexton will be playing for Leinster) and Gatland has already said that the starting 15 in this match will have a head start on all other test match contenders.

This is a key point. Farrell gets to play the first Saturday with the majority of the Welsh team and therefore the Test team. Sexton's first game will be the following Tuesday with the late Leinster/Leicester arrivals. It will be hard for these guys to move from midweek to Saturday games.

I keep telling you all, the Ginger Monster is on tour and always has his boots with him

majesticimperialman wrote:Personally, I think another 10 will be flown out, hopefully Hook or Biggar.

I dont think that anybody will be flown out... and what with Hook playing for the Baabaas, i dont think he will even be considerd.

Eh?

bedfordwelsh wrote:I keep telling you all, the Ginger Monster is on tour and always has his boots with him

I agree, POC should be reserve fly half

Gretgael1 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I keep telling you all, the Ginger Monster is on tour and always has his boots with him

I agree, POC should be reserve fly half

He's a bit careless with the boot though, so if the chips were down would he be able to knock his goals over?

bedfordwelsh wrote:I keep telling you all, the Ginger Monster is on tour and always has his boots with him

Rhys Patchell is being promoted through the ranks very quickly...

Risca Rev wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I keep telling you all, the Ginger Monster is on tour and always has his boots with him

I agree, POC should be reserve fly half

He's a bit careless with the boot though, so if the chips were down would he be able to knock his goals over?

Well if his goal is to kick people in the head he should be ok.

Sorry but I have to say this.

Every time I read this heading I think of the Landrover Defender 110

Hate Landrovers. Always breakdown.