Munster 2013/14

First topic message reminder :

Some news of players leaving Munster.

Doug Howlett has announced his retirement.

Other departures from the current squad - besides Peter Stringer who remains with Bath, Marcus Horan who announced his retirement recently, Sean Scanlon (Rotherham Titans) and Sean Henry (Connacht) - include Wian du Preez who returns to his native South Africa, Scott Deasy and Christy Condon.

BJ Botha will continue on with Munster having signed a two year contract extension while Danny Barnes has not been re-contracted but is understood to have negotiated an opportunity to play abroad and news of that will be confirmed in the coming weeks.

Its been confirmed that Lualala is off at the end of the season. Lets pray Mannix is off too. The back play has been terrible since he came in. I'm not sorry to see Lualala go either. Good player but makes far too many mistakes.

Downey is another player who isn't up to the requird level.

profitius wrote:Its been confirmed that Lualala is off at the end of the season. Lets pray Mannix is off too. The back play has been terrible since he came in. I'm not sorry to see Lualala go either. Good player but makes far too many mistakes.

Downey is another player who isn't up to the requird level.

What would your ideal back line look like, prof?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

profitius wrote:Its been confirmed that Lualala is off at the end of the season. Lets pray Mannix is off too. The back play has been terrible since he came in. I'm not sorry to see Lualala go either. Good player but makes far too many mistakes.

Downey is another player who isn't up to the requird level.

What would your ideal back line look like, prof?

From the players there

15 Hurley. He doesn't have Jones' pace but he showed something in attack at the weekend that Jones hasn't all season.
14 Earls
13 Lualala. Not many choices here. Center is a major weakness for Munster.
12 Dineen. More of an all rounder than Downey and just playing better anyway.
11 Zebo
10 Hanrahan. But I can see why they're taking their time with him.
9 Murray

Lualua is a big loss, he's the only Munster outside back who runs forward rather than sideways.

Prof - based on what I have seen I would go with this back line:

9) Murray
10) Hanrahan
11) Conway
12) Downey?
13) Earls
14) Zebo
15) Murphy

12 is a bit of a weakness, unless one of Hanrahan or Keatley can play there. I would like to see JJ at 10 asap, so perhaps Keatley could be a good option there? He certainly has the attacking instinct, but at 10 his decision making can be suspect.

rodders wrote:Lualua is a big loss, he's the only Munster outside back who runs forward rather than sideways.

It almost certainly means Earls will be back at 13. There are a lot more options at wing than at 13.

Rory, Zebo will stay at 11 because he has a great left boot.

Sin é wrote:Rory, Zebo will stay at 11 because he has a great left boot.

Sorry, swap Zebo and Conway.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

rodders wrote:Lualua is a big loss, he's the only Munster outside back who runs forward rather than sideways.

It almost certainly means Earls will be back at 13.  There are a lot more options at wing than at 13.

Downey and JJ in the centre could be the best combination since Nonu and Smith but no one sees it.... ok I'm half joking ...

Hanrahan needs to be at 10 in my opinion. His game management and place kicking is simply superb. He needs to gain experience there so that his decision making can continue to improve. He has the control of ROG and the attacking nous of Sexton combined.

In the centres his kicking game would be wasted in my opinion.

I think there are only 3 players in the country who can replace O'Driscoll next season - Payne, Olding and Hanrahan...

No one else has the pace or skills to be an international class outside centre imo. JJs try was like something O'Driscoll would have scored 10 years ago.

Earls is better than any of those players in terms of line breaking ability and genuine pace. He is simply the most dangerous option we have at 13. Obviously his decision making has been targeted as his main weakness. However it really isn't as bad as people make out. His distribution is actually good nowadays as well.

Hanrahan may be fantastic in attack and with a bit of space, but he isn't a 13 by any means.

rodders wrote:I think there are only 3 players in the country who can replace O'Driscoll next season - Payne, Olding and Hanrahan...

No one else has the pace or skills to be an international class outside centre imo. JJs try was like something O'Driscoll would have scored 10 years ago.

Wow you really are getting carried away Rodders. I would say Henshaw and Fitzgerald are both ahead of JJ in the queue for that particular honour. I would even prefer to see Earls be considered first.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:Rory, Zebo will stay at 11 because he has a great left boot.

Sorry, swap Zebo and Conway.

Yes, thats more like it. Johne Murphy has been great this season as well. He has that extra bit of experience as well.

Rodders, JJ is and will remain a 10.

Any thoughts on Zebo playing at 15 again? I know he has played there for Ireland, but has he ever played there for Munster?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Any thoughts on Zebo playing at 15 again?  I know he has played there for Ireland, but has he ever played there for Munster?

Never!

Zebo racked up hattricks from a 11 with Earls at centre. Zebo didn't do so well outside Casey.

Munster really need to sort out the centre now.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:I think there are only 3 players in the country who can replace O'Driscoll next season - Payne, Olding and Hanrahan...

No one else has the pace or skills to be an international class outside centre imo. JJs try was like something O'Driscoll would have scored 10 years ago.

Wow you really are getting carried away Rodders. I would say Henshaw and Fitzgerald are both ahead of JJ in the queue for that particular honour. I would even prefer to see Earls be considered first.

That's a matter of opinion Guns - Earls and Fitzgerald aren't good enough in the centre in my opinion and wouldn't be if they played there until the cows came home.

By contrast the 3 boys above have all the skills. The have pace, great footballing skills and hands, vision are physically strong enough for midfield.

Rodders - although Payne is exceptional at bringing other players into the game and keeping the defence guessing with ball in hand, he simply doesn't have the outright pace and agility to run like Earls or Fitzgerald.

Either way, you are losing something I guess. BOD both had the magical playmaking game and the pace, he really was a once in a lifetime player.

I genuinely think Earls is the best option, for now at least.

I don't agree with that at all Rory. 100% no. Payne has more line breaking ability than Fitz and Earls put together...and crucially when he does make line breaks he always looks to offload and keep the move alive.

I think Ulster should do the honourable thing and give Munster one of our star centres - maybe Paddy Wallce.

 

Rods, this is what your favourite ex-player has to say about Earls:

Ronan O'Gara wrote:This is my Keith Earls Theory. I see so much to work with in training with Earls, stuff you would never see as an opposition coach, even one as partial to detail as Schmidt.

Keith is a class player, but there so much more in the tin from him. He’s Ireland’s most explosive back, and in training he’s the one who troubles Brian O’Driscoll as an outside centre every time.

But a casual observer hears of Earls and thinks of Manu Tuilagi steamrolling over him in the World Cup warm-up game at the Aviva in 2011. But I’d be in awe watching the lad training some days. The one answer I don’t have is where his best position is. Is he the 13, is he better off left wing, and if he is, where is Zebo going to go? He has that power and explosiveness in attack, and as a defensive centre, it’s more about reading and match intelligence than strength, even though he is not lacking in that department.

rodders wrote:I don't agree with that at all Rory. 100% no. Payne has more line breaking ability than Fitz and Earls put together...and crucially when he does make line breaks he always looks to offload and keep the move alive.  

Last week against Perpignan, Earls beat something ridiculous like 10 defenders and made 3 line breaks or so. At 13 he made the most line breaks in the 6 nations in 2012. Against Northampton, Fitzgerald beat 8 defenders and made 3 line breaks. I have yet to see Payne come up with such stats.

Obviously as you say his offloading ability when he does make a line break is what sets him apart currently.

Ah sure we were all liginds in training Sin

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't agree with that at all Rory. 100% no. Payne has more line breaking ability than Fitz and Earls put together...and crucially when he does make line breaks he always looks to offload and keep the move alive.  

Last week against Perpignan, Earls beat something ridiculous like 10 defenders and made 3 line breaks or so.  At 13 he made the most line breaks in the 6 nations in 2012.  Against Northampton, Fitzgerald beat 8 defenders and made 3 line breaks.  I have yet to see Payne come up with such stats.

But yet and all Munster didn't get the winning try until Earls went off? That says, along with his stats for Ireland that Keith Earls breaks generally don't amount to much on the scoreboard.

Payne created one try and scored one - that's the stats that count.

Not sure what games you were watching Rory?

From ESPN:

Earls:

29 metres run
0 tries / 0 assists
0 Clean breaks
1 defender beaten/ 0 Offloads

Payne:

42 metres
1 try / 2 assists
2 clean breaks
2 defenders beaten/ 2 Offloads

rodders wrote:Not sure what games you were watching Rory?

From ESPN:

Earls:

29 metres run
0 tries / 0 assists
0 Clean breaks
1 defender beaten/ 0 Offloads

Payne:

42 metres
1 try / 2 assists
2 clean breaks
2 defenders beaten/ 2 Offloads

Earls got 4 touches of the ball. Payne got about 35.

42 metres isn't much from a fullback.

The results of the Munster v Perp

22 touches:
172m gained. 2 cleans breaks. 9 Defenders beaten. 1 try.

Sin é wrote:Rods, this is what  your favourite ex-player has to say about Earls:

Ronan O'Gara wrote:This is my Keith Earls Theory. I see so much to work with in training with Earls, stuff you would never see as an opposition coach, even one as partial to detail as Schmidt.

Keith is a class player, but there so much more in the tin from him. He’s Ireland’s most explosive back, and in training he’s the one who troubles Brian O’Driscoll as an outside centre every time.

But a casual observer hears of Earls and thinks of Manu Tuilagi steamrolling over him in the World Cup warm-up game at the Aviva in 2011. But I’d be in awe watching the lad training some days. The one answer I don’t have is where his best position is. Is he the 13, is he better off left wing, and if he is, where is Zebo going to go? He has that power and explosiveness in attack, and as a defensive centre, it’s more about reading and match intelligence than strength, even though he is not lacking in that department.

Cant say I disagree with O'Gara there. Earls is under rated IMO. Seriously talented player.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:I think there are only 3 players in the country who can replace O'Driscoll next season - Payne, Olding and Hanrahan...

No one else has the pace or skills to be an international class outside centre imo. JJs try was like something O'Driscoll would have scored 10 years ago.

Wow you really are getting carried away Rodders. I would say Henshaw and Fitzgerald are both ahead of JJ in the queue for that particular honour. I would even prefer to see Earls be considered first.

That's a matter of opinion Guns - Earls and Fitzgerald aren't good enough in the centre in my opinion and wouldn't be if they played there until the cows came home.

By contrast the 3 boys above have all the skills. The have pace, great footballing skills and hands, vision are physically strong enough for midfield.  

Earls and Fitz are two of Irelands fastest and most skillful players. They have proven that both for the Lions and Ireland. One side step and JJ is Ireland's incumbent 13?

Payne too has never played in an International game before even if he is very good a club level.

Even Robbie Hendshaw has three Ireland caps. I reckon the pecking order is:

Fitz/Earls/Hendshaw
Olding/Cave
Payne (because he isnt in contention until a bit after O'Driscoll has left.)

I dont think JJ is even on the list.

I always enjoy the lulster brigade deciding who our best players are and in what position. Its comical at best especially rodders

Henshaw and Earls are tried and tested at 13 and it hasn't worked. WC on the horizon there is no point in wasting valuable game time with these two. I would like point out though that I think Earls should start on the wing or fullback and Henshaw should be given a chance at 15 in 6N, even Zebo. Anyone but Rob at 15, and that's coming from a Leinster man.

It's a pity our two best option are injured and not eligible. Olding is unreal and will be the closest thing we're going to get to BOD imo.

Without a doubt I would be starting Cave at 13 in the 6N. He's arguable the form 13 in Europe atm. I would need to see more of Fitz at 13 for Leinster before I can comment. In theory he should be perfect there. Great defence, our best line runner, good hands and rugby brain (unlike Earls).

I do like the idea of JJ at 13. Jackson looks like the future at 10 and Sexton still has a few years in him, not to mention Maddog.

In what way has Henshaw been tried and tested at 13? Hes only played 2 HC cup games there in which he looked pretty good and a handful of league games.

gleesonisgod wrote:Henshaw and Earls are tried and tested at 13 and it hasn't worked. WC on the horizon there is no point in wasting valuable game time with these two. I would like point out though that I think Earls should start on the wing or fullback and Henshaw should be given a chance at 15 in 6N, even Zebo. Anyone but Rob at 15, and that's coming from a Leinster man.

It's a pity our two best option are injured and not eligible. Olding is unreal and will be the closest thing we're going to get to BOD imo.

Without a doubt I would be starting Cave at 13 in the 6N. He's arguable the form 13 in Europe atm. I would need to see more of Fitz at 13 for Leinster before I can comment. In theory he should be perfect there. Great defence, our best line runner, good hands and rugby brain (unlike Earls).

I do like the idea of JJ at 13. Jackson looks like the future at 10 and Sexton still has a few years in him, not to mention Maddog.

Really. Henshaw is a kid and you are writing him off already.

When has it not worked out with Earls at 13? Only criticism I've heard as him not working out is that he is a super winger. Name any game you think he didn't perform at 13? (He has about 30 Heineken Cup caps for Munster at 13, and he was Ireland best back for the 6Nations he played at 13 when BOD was injured). The weak link were the props for that series.

Sin é wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:Henshaw and Earls are tried and tested at 13 and it hasn't worked. WC on the horizon there is no point in wasting valuable game time with these two. I would like point out though that I think Earls should start on the wing or fullback and Henshaw should be given a chance at 15 in 6N, even Zebo. Anyone but Rob at 15, and that's coming from a Leinster man.

It's a pity our two best option are injured and not eligible. Olding is unreal and will be the closest thing we're going to get to BOD imo.

Without a doubt I would be starting Cave at 13 in the 6N. He's arguable the form 13 in Europe atm. I would need to see more of Fitz at 13 for Leinster before I can comment. In theory he should be perfect there. Great defence, our best line runner, good hands and rugby brain (unlike Earls).

I do like the idea of JJ at 13. Jackson looks like the future at 10 and Sexton still has a few years in him, not to mention Maddog.

Really. Henshaw is a kid and you are writing him off already.

When has it not worked out with Earls at 13?  Only criticism I've heard as him not working out is that he is a super winger. Name any game you think he didn't perform at 13? (He has about 30 Heineken Cup caps for Munster at 13, and he was Ireland best back for the 6Nations he played at 13 when BOD was injured). The weak link were the props for that series.

JJ at 13 ...rubbish analysis of a player. He has either played 12 or 10.
Cave - decent club player, but not Intl standard and certainly not the form 13 in Europe... Doh!

Earls..good enough to play anywhere. Maybe he will profit under Penney and Holy Joe

rodders wrote:Not sure what games you were watching Rory?

From ESPN:

Earls:

29 metres run
0 tries / 0 assists
0 Clean breaks
1 defender beaten/ 0 Offloads

Payne:

42 metres
1 try / 2 assists
2 clean breaks
2 defenders beaten/ 2 Offloads

The previous weekend I mean, rodders. The first game against Perpignan.

ME-109 wrote:
Earls..good enough to play anywhere. Maybe he will profit under Penney and Holy Joe

Rubbish analysis of a player ..... profit under Penney and Joe? Well I mean if he didn't profit under his favourite uncle Deccie he's not likely to under a coach who'll pick the side on merit is he?

Mind you Penney seems to have a soft spot for players who run sideways so maybe he fits the bill there.....

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:Henshaw and Earls are tried and tested at 13 and it hasn't worked. WC on the horizon there is no point in wasting valuable game time with these two. I would like point out though that I think Earls should start on the wing or fullback and Henshaw should be given a chance at 15 in 6N, even Zebo. Anyone but Rob at 15, and that's coming from a Leinster man.

It's a pity our two best option are injured and not eligible. Olding is unreal and will be the closest thing we're going to get to BOD imo.

Without a doubt I would be starting Cave at 13 in the 6N. He's arguable the form 13 in Europe atm. I would need to see more of Fitz at 13 for Leinster before I can comment. In theory he should be perfect there. Great defence, our best line runner, good hands and rugby brain (unlike Earls).

I do like the idea of JJ at 13. Jackson looks like the future at 10 and Sexton still has a few years in him, not to mention Maddog.

Really. Henshaw is a kid and you are writing him off already.

When has it not worked out with Earls at 13?  Only criticism I've heard as him not working out is that he is a super winger. Name any game you think he didn't perform at 13? (He has about 30 Heineken Cup caps for Munster at 13, and he was Ireland best back for the 6Nations he played at 13 when BOD was injured). The weak link were the props for that series.

JJ at 13 ...rubbish analysis of a player. He has either played 12 or 10.
Cave - decent club player, but not Intl standard and certainly not the form 13 in Europe... Doh!

Earls..good enough to play anywhere. Maybe he will profit under Penney and Holy Joe

Ok I think there is a good chance you are a wum but lets presume you're not.

BOD used to play 10 so I don't see why JJ couldn't play 13. I doubt it will ever happen but i think it's a nice idea.

Earls has proven for Ireland that he's not a great 13 but that he is a great winger. His defence, awareness, hands, aren't as good as Cave's, Fitzy's, or Olding's.

How do you know Cave isn't international standard? I'd really like to hear your input on that one.

Keith Wood was a handy 10 at JJs age too.....   

O'Driscoll only played one international at 10 I think v Australia. He did play there at school level but he really shone when he made the switch to 13.

He played there against the ABs 2 seasons ago too when ROG got binned.

O'Driscoll has played 9, 10, 12 and 13 for Ireland and 15 for the Lions. Fact for the day.

Australia Schools Defeat Munster U19

17 December 2013, 8:06 pmBy Cian Tracey
A late second half comeback from Munster U19s wasn't enough for them to claim a draw against Australia Schools as they came up just short at Thomond Park.
Munster U19 13, Australia Schools 16.
Substitute Cormac Blake’s converted try four minutes from time gave the home side hope of claiming a famous draw, despite playing in their own half for large parts of the game.
Munster put in an excellent defensive display against a very physical Australian side and perhaps should have claimed the draw when they were given a kickable penalty in front of the posts two minutes from time. They instead opted for the corner but the kick went beyond the dead ball line.

The victors opened up an early eight-point lead after a Mitchell Third penalty and an Adrian Henley try. Tomas Quinlan responded with a penalty but it was Australia who led 8-3 at half time.

Quinlan and Third exchanged early second half penalties before Australia extended their lead through a well-worked Harry Jones try that put his side into a 16-6 lead.

But with the game nearing an end, Munster showed tremendous character to fight back and deservedly crossed for a try when Blake was forced over from a powerful rolling maul. Quinlan added the extras but it wasn’t enough as Australia ran out three point winners.

Afterwards, Munster U19s coach Keith Murphy spoke of his delight with how his side acquitted themselves.

“We might have snuck it at the end. We’re well proud of what the boys did tonight and in particular they can be proud of themselves because they gave a very good account of themselves against a strong, physical Australian side.

“We’ve found that these players back themselves a lot and we’re very proud of that. This has been a very good experience for our guys. These kinds of games are a must for our development.

“A lot of these players have fierce potential. The future bodes well for Munster Rugby,” he added.

Munster U19: S Fitzgerald; G O’Shea (P Kiernan 32), S McMahon capt, JJ O’Neill (G Lyons 51), B Murphy; T Quinlan, D O’Mahony (J Poland 40), L O’Connor, J Boland (L O’Halloran 36), M O’Donnell (J O’Halloran 56); F Bradshaw Ryan, J Keane (A Hogan 49); B Kilkenny, L O’Leary (T Ademakin 53), M Murphy (C Blake 51).

Australia Schools: A Henley (H Hutchinson, 25); H Jones, A Kellaway capt (T Milne 42), K Morgan, J Todd; M Third (A Deegan 56), M Short; F Sa’aga, A Mafi (E Guttenbeil 53), M Gibbon (V Fifita 33); L Cannell, M Jones (J Anderson 33); D Morris (L Faka’osilea 49), T Tai (J McCalman 40), R Warren Vosayco.

Referee: G Conway (IRFU).

Van Den Heever And Casey Start Tomorrow

20 December 2013, 10:09 amBy The Editor
Gerhard van den Heever will make his home debut and Duncan Casey will start his first competitive Munster game against Scarlets at Musgrave Park tomorrow night (ko 7:15pm).
The pair come into the side as Head Coach Rob Penney makes 12 changes to the team that beat Perpignan in France last weekend.
Three of the players involved in the winning try at Stade Aime Giral - Denis Hurley, Tommy O’Donnell and JJ Hanrahan - all come into the first XV with Billy Holland returning as captain.

Casey Laulala maintains his place in the centres with Ivan Dineen coming into the side to partner the former New Zealand international.

Andrew Conway will make his fifth start for the province on the left wing after recovering from a blow to the knee sustained against Cardiff Blues.

South African van den Heever takes his place on the opposite wing for his second start since signing from Western Province with Denis Hurley at full-back.

Cathal Sheridan retains his place at scrum-half after impressing last weekend with matchwinner Hanrahan at out-half.

BJ Botha is the only survivor from last week's front-row with Dave Kilcoyne and Duncan Casey coming into the side.

It will be Casey's first start and it will also be the Corkman's first Rabo appearance following his debut off the bench against Perpignan at Thomond Park two weeks ago.

Captain Billy Holland is joined in the second-row by Ian Nagle with both players coming into the side after starting together for Munster A last weekend.

Rob Penney has gone for an exciting back-row combination with Dave O’Callaghan, Tommy O’Donnell and CJ Stander all named in the starting XV.

Cork Con out-half Johnny Holland is amongst the replacements and will be hoping to earn his second Munster cap in front of the home crowd after his appearance off the bench against Cardiff Blues.

Another notable name on the bench is that of development prop Alan Cotter who makes his first appearance in the matchday 23 and could make his debut.

Tickets can be purchased online here and can also be purchased from the Munster Rugby ticket offices in Thomond Park and Musgrave Park today until 5pm.

Tickets will be available tomorrow from 9am to kick-off from the Dolphin entrance in Musgrave Park and from the Sunday's Well Turnstiles from 5:45pm.

Munster:
Denis Hurley;
Gerhard van den Heever, Casey Laulala, Ivan Dineen, Andrew Conway;
JJ Hanrahan, Cathal Sheridan;
Dave Kilcoyne, Duncan Casey, BJ Botha;
Ian Nagle, Billy Holland (Capt.);
Dave O'Callaghan, Tommy O'Donnell, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Damien Varley, Alan Cotter, John Ryan, Donncha O'Callaghan, Barry O'Mahony, Duncan Williams, Johnny Holland, Ronan O'Mahony

Good try by Scarlets.

Did Botha go off?  Looked like he twisted his ankle.

Not sure what the prblem was - looked worse than a twisted ankle

Scarlets are playing a much tighter game this season than previous seasons.  They used to be all about running in the backs, but look quite adept at grinding out victories this season.

Bad miss by JJ. Munster don't look like getting a try. Scarlets defence very good.

Scarlets down to 13 Munster have to nick it.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Scarlets down to 13 Munster have to nick it.

Woldn't put any money on it the way they are playing

Ouch, gotta feel for the Scarlets.

Lets hope this gets awarded