Munster 2013/14

First topic message reminder :

Some news of players leaving Munster.

Doug Howlett has announced his retirement.

Other departures from the current squad - besides Peter Stringer who remains with Bath, Marcus Horan who announced his retirement recently, Sean Scanlon (Rotherham Titans) and Sean Henry (Connacht) - include Wian du Preez who returns to his native South Africa, Scott Deasy and Christy Condon.

BJ Botha will continue on with Munster having signed a two year contract extension while Danny Barnes has not been re-contracted but is understood to have negotiated an opportunity to play abroad and news of that will be confirmed in the coming weeks.

Sin é wrote:
I feel sorry for Jackson - I think he has been messed about because he really can't be trusted internationally unless he gets to take responsibility for every time he plays and not have a crutch (Pienaar) to fall back on.

It's a tough life, being groomed as Sextons back-up and primed for the next World Cup. Getting international experience off the bench. Being seen as a leadership figure and definite starter at your province.

Poor wee scamp. We should have a collection for him at the Italy game!   

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I feel sorry for Jackson - I think he has been messed about because he really can't be trusted internationally unless he gets to take responsibility for every time he plays and not have a crutch (Pienaar) to fall back on.

It's a tough life, being groomed as Sextons back-up and primed for the next World Cup. Getting international experience off the bench. Being seen as a leadership figure and definite starter at your province.

Poor wee scamp. We should have a collection for him at the Italy game!   

  

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I feel sorry for Jackson - I think he has been messed about because he really can't be trusted internationally unless he gets to take responsibility for every time he plays and not have a crutch (Pienaar) to fall back on.

It's a tough life, being groomed as Sextons back-up and primed for the next World Cup. Getting international experience off the bench. Being seen as a leadership figure and definite starter at your province.

Poor wee scamp. We should have a collection for him at the Italy game!   

You would have to have Ruan Pienaar collect it for him, he wouldnt know what to do with it otherwise.

Don't get me wrong.

I've nothing against Jackson who I think is a good out half but I genuinely don't think he has the talent or kicking ability to be a great international 10.

I think both Madigan and especially JJ have that potential.

A 10 who can't kick is like a hooker who can't throw or a tighthead who can't scrummage: a liability who shouldn't be on an international team.

ME-109 wrote:Same with Luke Marshall...pick him for one game and drop him from the matchday squad completely with a clear list of things he needs to improve on (apparently being liked by BOD is one of them)

Maybe growing a beard would help.

ME-109 wrote:Sin É did you hear anything on the rumour from Leinsterfan about Sheriden being signed from LI? Havent seen anything on it myself.

I saw something about it, but as far as I know he has another another season to go on his contract so obviously Munster would have to buy it out.

MunsterMac wrote:I'm sorry Sin I can't agree on JJ.

If he had been handled properly he would now be the Irish no 2 out half.

Everything that has been asked of him so far in his career he has done with ease including taking the 10 shirt at short notice for the u-20 at the WC and consequectly being shortlisted for player of the tournament.

As I said earlier his kicking, defending, try scoring, try setting up (eg Sunday v Ospreys) etc has been top notch.

Dan Carter made his debut for NZ at 21 and by 22 he made the position his own.

I see no reason why JJ couldn't have been the Irish no 2 at this stage if he had been handled correctly.

I think he has basically been a victim of circumstance being behind ROG and the man they brought in to replace him last season and Munster feeling they have to play Keatley this season.

Dan Carter made his debut for NZ at 12, not 10. Played about 12 games there as well before he became the No. 10 and a lot of those games were against teams like Wales, Italy, Tonga, Canada. He was playing international rugby for 18 months before he moved to 10.

Carter (after playing about 5 games of Super Rugby at 10 against easy opposition (at home) he was moved to 12 where he spent the next 2 seasons.

I think JJ has been given a very similar introduction as Carter (game time, but not in the key role). I also think Mannix has been very influential in keeping him under wraps a bit, as he himself as a talented young player was introduced too early and then thrown to the wolves with a shattered confidence.

a lot of those games were against teams like Wales, Italy, Tonga, Canada

 

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I feel sorry for Jackson - I think he has been messed about because he really can't be trusted internationally unless he gets to take responsibility for every time he plays and not have a crutch (Pienaar) to fall back on.

It's a tough life, being groomed as Sextons back-up and primed for the next World Cup. Getting international experience off the bench. Being seen as a leadership figure and definite starter at your province.

Poor wee scamp. We should have a collection for him at the Italy game!   

He still won't be a reliable kicker from the tee unless he actually is given the chance to challenge Pienaar, who is a perfect example of who will always be preferred when it comes to picking the team - the one with the reliable boot who can win a tight game for you.

JJ is building his game around a very reliable boot. Having that confidence/skill will be worth a lot in the years to come. Think Brock James, Nick Evans and a few more unreliables and how they have cost their teams. Then think of the careers that Stephen Jones, ROG, Wilko (even Dan Parks) have had out of having a very reliable boot.

Even though Sexton has improved a lot, he still seems to me to be lacking in total confidence in it.

MunsterMac wrote:

a lot of those games were against teams like Wales, Italy, Tonga, Canada

 

They were really Poopie around then!   

MunsterMac wrote:Don't get me wrong.

I've nothing against Jackson who I think is a good out half but I genuinely don't think he has the talent or kicking ability to be a great international 10.

I think both Madigan and especially JJ have that potential.

A 10 who can't kick is like a hooker who can't throw or a tighthead who can't scrummage: a liability who shouldn't be on an international team.

Id have Jackson ahead of Madigan who I think is hugely over rated and over hyped. A couple of good games where leinster dominated made him look very good. However he has struggled this year and its no coincidence that he is not starting in the big games for Leinster. His game management is poor, he is weak in defence and kicking is only all right. A classic example of the D4 media getting carried away on 1 or 2 performances.

BlueMuff wrote:

MunsterMac wrote:Don't get me wrong.

I've nothing against Jackson who I think is a good out half but I genuinely don't think he has the talent or kicking ability to be a great international 10.

I think both Madigan and especially JJ have that potential.

A 10 who can't kick is like a hooker who can't throw or a tighthead who can't scrummage: a liability who shouldn't be on an international team.

Id have Jackson ahead of Madigan who I think is hugely over rated and over hyped. A couple of good games where leinster dominated made him look very good. However he has struggled this year and its no coincidence that he is not starting in the big games for Leinster. His game management is poor, he is weak in defence and kicking is only all right. A classic example of the D4 media getting carried away on 1 or 2 performances.

What exactly is the D4 media? Irish Times is located in D2 and the Independant group in Citywest Dublin 18.

Sounds like you get your facts from WaterfordWhispersNews.com

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

MunsterMac wrote:Don't get me wrong.

I've nothing against Jackson who I think is a good out half but I genuinely don't think he has the talent or kicking ability to be a great international 10.

I think both Madigan and especially JJ have that potential.

A 10 who can't kick is like a hooker who can't throw or a tighthead who can't scrummage: a liability who shouldn't be on an international team.

Id have Jackson ahead of Madigan who I think is hugely over rated and over hyped. A couple of good games where leinster dominated made him look very good. However he has struggled this year and its no coincidence that he is not starting in the big games for Leinster. His game management is poor, he is weak in defence and kicking is only all right. A classic example of the D4 media getting carried away on 1 or 2 performances.

What exactly is the D4 media? Irish Times is located in D2 and the Independant group in Citywest Dublin 18.

Sounds like you get your facts from WaterfordWhispersNews.com

rrryyyyllleeeee nuuuugggeeeeentt ….. tttttoooooonnnnnyyyyy waaaarrrrddd

RTE is practically in Kiely's ……

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

MunsterMac wrote:Don't get me wrong.

I've nothing against Jackson who I think is a good out half but I genuinely don't think he has the talent or kicking ability to be a great international 10.

I think both Madigan and especially JJ have that potential.

A 10 who can't kick is like a hooker who can't throw or a tighthead who can't scrummage: a liability who shouldn't be on an international team.

Id have Jackson ahead of Madigan who I think is hugely over rated and over hyped. A couple of good games where leinster dominated made him look very good. However he has struggled this year and its no coincidence that he is not starting in the big games for Leinster. His game management is poor, he is weak in defence and kicking is only all right. A classic example of the D4 media getting carried away on 1 or 2 performances.

What exactly is the D4 media? Irish Times is located in D2 and the Independant group in Citywest Dublin 18.

Sounds like you get your facts from WaterfordWhispersNews.com

RTE, Newstalk, The IT, TV3 (shane Byrne) all those D4 based media organisations.

Dont knock WWN - some insightful stuff on there   

Tony Ward scored two drop goals and a conversion v the All Blacks for Munster. I would have thought he would be held in high esteem in Munster.

If you bother to listen to anything Ryle Nugent says then there is no hope for you.

BlueMuff wrote:
RTE, Newstalk, The IT, TV3 (shane Byrne) all those D4 based media organisations.

Dont knock WWN - some insightful stuff on there   

RTE is the only one based in D4 and it is full of rednecks from Munster. Hook, Quinlan, Daire "go easy" O'Brien, Lenihan, ROG, Conor O'Shea etc. There are more Munster pundits or presenters in RTE than anything else.

That's why conor murray and peter o'mahoney get so many motm awards then....

Lenihan is hated in Munster.

BlueMuff wrote:Lenihan is hated in Munster.

???? You what now?

rodders wrote:That's why conor murray and peter o'mahoney get so many motm awards then....

Exactly.

GunsGerms wrote:Tony Ward scored two drop goals and a conversion v the All Blacks for Munster. I would have thought he would be held in high esteem in Munster.

If you bother to listen to anything Ryle Nugent says then there is no hope for you.

Ryle Nugent (ex-Blackrock) is the head of sport of RTE.

Tony Ward's brain is frazzled from watching Leinster School's rugby.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Tony Ward scored two drop goals and a conversion v the All Blacks for Munster. I would have thought he would be held in high esteem in Munster.

If you bother to listen to anything Ryle Nugent says then there is no hope for you.

Ryle Nugent (ex-Blackrock) is the head of sport of RTE.

Tony Ward's brain is frazzled from watching School's rugby.

Tony Ward's brain is frazzled end of..(you dont need any more)

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Tony Ward scored two drop goals and a conversion v the All Blacks for Munster. I would have thought he would be held in high esteem in Munster.

If you bother to listen to anything Ryle Nugent says then there is no hope for you.

Ryle Nugent (ex-Blackrock) is the head of sport of RTE.

Tony Ward's brain is frazzled from watching School's rugby.

Tony Ward's brain is frazzled end of..(you dont need any more)

Nobody cares about Ryle. He is not relevant. Neoptism.

Ward is fine. He's harmless.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:That's why conor murray and peter o'mahoney get so many motm awards then....

Exactly.

I presume he was trying to throw everyone off the scent when he gave J'aime moi the MOTM against Scotland.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Tony Ward scored two drop goals and a conversion v the All Blacks for Munster. I would have thought he would be held in high esteem in Munster.

If you bother to listen to anything Ryle Nugent says then there is no hope for you.

Ryle Nugent (ex-Blackrock) is the head of sport of RTE.

Tony Ward's brain is frazzled from watching School's rugby.

Tony Ward's brain is frazzled end of..(you dont need any more)

Nobody cares about Ryle. He is not relevant. Neoptism.

Ward is fine. He's harmless.

He was the one who couldn't stop himself going on about Madigan. Madser played in the Leinster School's Cup, don't ya know.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:That's why conor murray and peter o'mahoney get so many motm awards then....

Exactly.

I presume he was trying to throw everyone off the scent when he gave J'aime moi the MOTM against Scotland.

Do you mean Je m'aime? I love me - J'aime moi is gramatically incorrect. Zeebs would be horrified.

on a seperate note why do Munster pundits always say left instead of let?

The referee left Ireland off with that one, par example. Any ideas?

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:That's why conor murray and peter o'mahoney get so many motm awards then....

Exactly.

I presume he was trying to throw everyone off the scent when he gave J'aime moi the MOTM against Scotland.

Do you mean Je m'aime? I love me - J'aime moi is gramatically incorrect. Zeebs would be horrified.

in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

ME-109 wrote:
in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

Why because it is coming from someone from Munster?

GunsGerms wrote:on a seperate note why do Munster pundits always say left instead of let?

The referee left Ireland off with that one, par example. Any ideas?

Can't say I've noticed that one. I myself would say 'let off' and use 'left out' (of the match day squad).

Can't say I've noticed it. Maybe its a Cork thing.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:on a seperate note why do Munster pundits always say left instead of let?

The referee left Ireland off with that one, par example. Any ideas?

Can't say I've noticed that one. I myself would say 'let off'  and use 'left out' (of the match day squad).

Can't say I've noticed it. Maybe its a Cork thing.

Lenihan and Sheehan say it all the time. Watch out for it.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:on a seperate note why do Munster pundits always say left instead of let?

The referee left Ireland off with that one, par example. Any ideas?

Can't say I've noticed that one. I myself would say 'let off'  and use 'left out' (of the match day squad).

Can't say I've noticed it. Maybe its a Cork thing.

Lenihan and Sheehan say it all the time. Watch out for it.

Does Quinlan say it? (he is from Tipp and mostly lived in Limerick).

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:on a seperate note why do Munster pundits always say left instead of let?

The referee left Ireland off with that one, par example. Any ideas?

Can't say I've noticed that one. I myself would say 'let off'  and use 'left out' (of the match day squad).

Can't say I've noticed it. Maybe its a Cork thing.

Lenihan and Sheehan say it all the time. Watch out for it.

Does Quinlan say it? (he is from Tipp and mostly lived in Limerick).

Off the top of my head not sure.

Think Daire "go easy" O'brien does though.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

Why because it is coming from someone from Munster?

Because J'aime loves himself.

In other news, I believe there was a waiting list of 250 for ROG's testimonial in London.

Seems to be a popular guy over there. Imagine London gave him a testimonial and D4 gave him nothing but abuse for years.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I feel sorry for Jackson - I think he has been messed about because he really can't be trusted internationally unless he gets to take responsibility for every time he plays and not have a crutch (Pienaar) to fall back on.

It's a tough life, being groomed as Sextons back-up and primed for the next World Cup. Getting international experience off the bench. Being seen as a leadership figure and definite starter at your province.

Poor wee scamp. We should have a collection for him at the Italy game!   

He still won't be a reliable kicker from the tee unless he actually is given the chance to challenge Pienaar, who is a perfect example of who will always be preferred when it comes to picking the team - the one with the reliable boot who can win a tight game for you.

JJ is building his game around a very reliable boot. Having that confidence/skill will be worth a lot in the years to come. Think Brock James, Nick Evans and a few more unreliables and how they have cost their teams. Then think of the careers that Stephen Jones, ROG, Wilko (even Dan Parks) have had out of having a very reliable boot.

Even though Sexton has improved a lot, he still seems to me to be lacking in total confidence in it.

Well, Jackson has been rather good when kicking at goal this season. He's kicked in a number of games including Heineken Cup games and the test match against Samoa and his kicking is coming on. The Ulster coaching staff certainly can't be accused of not giving him opportunities and the fact Ruan got the nod for the last few Heineken Cup games doesn't really worry me. There's no other place kicker in Ireland who would have been ahead of Pienaar in terms of goal kicking when he was in that form, including Madigan and Hanrahan or even Sexton. Pienaar went to practice at Welford Road and completed something like 60 consecutive accurate place kicks from all parts of the pitch. Add to that he has a longer range than Jackson and it was a fair call.

I would hope he is kicking for Ulster on Friday, assuming he is released. I think that that is fair because he does need some game time kicking to prepare for the Italy game- harsh on Ruan, but Pienaar will be kicking in plenty of other matches. We (Ulster) can rely on him to kick at goal. Certainly ever other part of his game is entirely reliable, and I think it's rather unfair to lump him in with Brock James who tends to go to pieces when his kicking game goes- the reason Jackson is the current number 2 out half in Irish rugby is the consistency he has in his all round game, allied to the fact his kicking is getting more consistent after not being always great last season.

As for Nick Evans, unreliable? Hmm. I think we would have had some fun and games in the selection arguments if Ireland had a guy as talented as Nick Evans around at the same time as O'Gara!

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

Why because it is coming from someone from Munster?

Because of who it refers to...

Anyhow Guns the things that bother you are interesting Left off or Let off....out of curiosity are you a dub

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

Why because it is coming from someone from Munster?

Because J'aime loves himself.

In other news, I believe there was a waiting list of 250 for ROG's testimonial in London.

Seems to be a popular guy over there. Imagine London gave him a testimonial and D4 gave him nothing but abuse for years.

J'aime seems pretty popular in Munster too the amount you lads talk about him.

In all fairness ROG deserved most of it.

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

Why because it is coming from someone from Munster?

Because of who it refers to...

Anyhow Guns the things that bother you are interesting Left off or Let off....out of curiosity are you a dub  

I didnt say it bothered me. Its just curious.

No I'm a bogger.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

Why because it is coming from someone from Munster?

Because of who it refers to...

Anyhow Guns the things that bother you are interesting Left off or Let off....out of curiosity are you a dub  

I didnt say it bothered me. Its just curious.

No I'm a bogger.

And what sort of a bogger are you....

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

Why because it is coming from someone from Munster?

Because of who it refers to...

Anyhow Guns the things that bother you are interesting Left off or Let off....out of curiosity are you a dub  

I didnt say it bothered me. Its just curious.

No I'm a bogger.

And what sort of a bogger are you....

A filthy bogger.


from Westmeath.

a filthy bogger with chinos under his wellies

rodders wrote:a filthy bogger with chinos under his wellies

worst kind of bogger.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
in this case the incorrect grammar is more apt

Why because it is coming from someone from Munster?

Because of who it refers to...

Anyhow Guns the things that bother you are interesting Left off or Let off....out of curiosity are you a dub  

I didnt say it bothered me. Its just curious.

No I'm a bogger.

And what sort of a bogger are you....

A filthy bogger.

from Westmeath.

Good man yourself....a muck savage so...

Anyhow no idea why people use Left off instead of Let off. Just a language thing I guess. Like a lot of Irish variations of the good Queens English

Yep, why do you ask where I'm from? Do you like to build profiles on people?

Thanks for the response. Always thought it a funny one. A bit like how English people pronounce 6th as sickth or Americans ask as axe.

GunsGerms wrote:Yep, why do you ask where I'm from? Do you like to build profiles on people?

Thanks for the response. Always thought it a funny one. A bit like how English people pronounce 6th as sickth or American's ask as axe.

Not at all...just interested...always find it amusing to be called a redneck amongst other things from people like yourself...

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yep, why do you ask where I'm from? Do you like to build profiles on people?

Thanks for the response. Always thought it a funny one. A bit like how English people pronounce 6th as sickth or American's ask as axe.

Not at all...just interested...always find it amusing to be called a redneck amongst other things from people like yourself...

Takes one to know one. No?

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yep, why do you ask where I'm from? Do you like to build profiles on people?

Thanks for the response. Always thought it a funny one. A bit like how English people pronounce 6th as sickth or American's ask as axe.

Not at all...just interested...always find it amusing to be called a redneck amongst other things from people like yourself...

Takes one to know one. No?

Perhaps...not sure I have encountered anyone from Westmeath besides yourself so cant really tell. I might have met one once...

On the "left off" "left down" thing all the Limerick lads do it too. POC Fla etc. I think Quinny does too.

Just part of the rich tapestry of the regional variations in Hyberno-English.

Have you ever noticed that nordies use "whenever" a lot when they just mean "when"

I would use "whenever" for events that happen regularly. eg. "Whenever you go to Ravenhill it is always raining"

They seem to use it in circumstances that may only happen once. eg. "See whenever you got married"


anyway....

I just love watching Munster fans, (who have spent years slagging off Jamie Heaslip because he..... "wears headphones" "has nice hair" "shook his finger once when scoring a try" "has fancy boots" "wears fashionable clothes") squirming when they have to defend "The Zeebmeister" because he......."wears headphones" "has nice hair" "shook his finger once when scoring a try" "has fancy boots" "wears fashionable clothes"

They must go home and take it out on their missuses after a hard day at the Zeebdefending.

FWIW I like both players, but that's cool because I'm a dub,   

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I feel sorry for Jackson - I think he has been messed about because he really can't be trusted internationally unless he gets to take responsibility for every time he plays and not have a crutch (Pienaar) to fall back on.

It's a tough life, being groomed as Sextons back-up and primed for the next World Cup. Getting international experience off the bench. Being seen as a leadership figure and definite starter at your province.

Poor wee scamp. We should have a collection for him at the Italy game!   

He still won't be a reliable kicker from the tee unless he actually is given the chance to challenge Pienaar, who is a perfect example of who will always be preferred when it comes to picking the team - the one with the reliable boot who can win a tight game for you.

JJ is building his game around a very reliable boot. Having that confidence/skill will be worth a lot in the years to come. Think Brock James, Nick Evans and a few more unreliables and how they have cost their teams. Then think of the careers that Stephen Jones, ROG, Wilko (even Dan Parks) have had out of having a very reliable boot.

Even though Sexton has improved a lot, he still seems to me to be lacking in total confidence in it.

Well, Jackson has been rather good when kicking at goal this season. He's kicked in a number of games including Heineken Cup games and the test match against Samoa and his kicking is coming on. The Ulster coaching staff certainly can't be accused of not giving him opportunities and the fact Ruan got the nod for the last few Heineken Cup games doesn't really worry me. There's no other place kicker in Ireland who would have been ahead of Pienaar in terms of goal kicking when he was in that form, including Madigan and Hanrahan or even Sexton. Pienaar went to practice at Welford Road and completed something like 60 consecutive accurate place kicks from all parts of the pitch. Add to that he has a longer range than Jackson and it was a fair call.

I would hope he is kicking for Ulster on Friday, assuming he is released. I think that that is fair because he does need some game time kicking to prepare for the Italy game- harsh on Ruan, but Pienaar will be kicking in plenty of other matches. We (Ulster) can rely on him to kick at goal. Certainly ever other part of his game is entirely reliable, and I think it's rather unfair to lump him in with Brock James who tends to go to pieces when his kicking game goes- the reason Jackson is the current number 2 out half in Irish rugby is the consistency he has in his all round game, allied to the fact his kicking is getting more consistent after not being always great last season.

As for Nick Evans, unreliable? Hmm. I think we would have had some fun and games in the selection arguments if Ireland had a guy as talented as Nick Evans around at the same time as O'Gara!

The point I'm making in a situation a few years down the road, all things equal except the kicking from the tee, JJ will get the gig because as you say yourself, as with Ulster, Ireland will always want their best kicker taking the kicks.

Lots of players get all their kicks in practice situation or low pressure games, but it has happened so often that when the pressure is on, people have failed.