Munster 2013/14

First topic message reminder :

Some news of players leaving Munster.

Doug Howlett has announced his retirement.

Other departures from the current squad - besides Peter Stringer who remains with Bath, Marcus Horan who announced his retirement recently, Sean Scanlon (Rotherham Titans) and Sean Henry (Connacht) - include Wian du Preez who returns to his native South Africa, Scott Deasy and Christy Condon.

BJ Botha will continue on with Munster having signed a two year contract extension while Danny Barnes has not been re-contracted but is understood to have negotiated an opportunity to play abroad and news of that will be confirmed in the coming weeks.

GunsGerms wrote:Zeebs was still at fault for O'Driscoll's try. Will he be too much of a defensive liablility against the likes of Huget, Clerc, Poitrenau?

Thats a lazy analysis Guns...he could have done better but Jones shot up outside him instead of sweeping inside him and it was clearly bad communication on Jones part (take a look)...anyhow we all know it was Rollands fault.

No one in Munster has any concerns on Zebos defence. Its a bit like the old DOC gives away penalties story (it happened one season and never again)...come on Guns try some analysis discussion...if not game on...

GunsGerms wrote:Zeebs was still at fault for O'Driscoll's try. Will he be too much of a defensive liablility against the likes of Huget, Clerc, Poitrenau?

Just when I think your posts are starting to be meangiful you come up with this. Back on the ignore list for now Im afraid.   

Considering the predictable drift attack we had, Earls and Zebos performane out on the wings was even more remarkable. They Leinster defence was able to shift across and they never had an overlap yet they still made a number of line breaks.

Gents, it is undenyable that Zebo was at fault for Drico's try. Very poor D from him.

Muff please dont put me on your ignore list     

Zebo was average enough v Leinster. I'd go with VdH, Earls and Jones particularly v Toulouse. Maybe keep Zebo on the bench to come on if Munster are chasing the game.

GunsGerms wrote:Gents, it is undenyable that Zebo was at fault for Drico's try. Very poor D from him.

Muff please dont put me on your ignore list     

Zebo was average enough v Leinster. I'd go with VdH, Earls and Jones particularly v Toulouse. Maybe keep Zebo on the bench to come on if Munster are chasing the game.

He was so average his stats were 50% better than the next best. Also your spelling is atrocious...you can take the mucksavage out of mullingar etc...doesnt look like the expensive education in Clowngowes did you much good...daddy will be disappointed...

You spelt Clongowes wrong Dod.

Dont you think a safer back three would be VdH, Earls and Jones? Would you not be concerned with Zebo's defence when up against such attacking players such as Clerc and Huget? No concerns?

Anyhow..

I wonder will he try something different for a centre pairing like start JJ and Keatley. This is our biggest problem in terms of attack.

Zeebs was still at fault for O'Driscoll's try.

You see Guns this is where you just say something for the sake of saying it without any basis in reality.

Zebo was playing on the wing and when Leinster spun the ball wide in the lead up to the try he held the defensive line perfectly covering his opposite number McFadden and keeping an eye on Jennings on his inside.

When Jennings got the ball Zebo continued to cover McFadden as he had to and left Jennings to Laulala on his inside.

The problem was that the Munster defensive cover was too slow getting across to cover  BOD, Kearney and D'Arcy (I think) who ran into a huge whole in the centre.

The only other thing Zebo could have done was to shoot out of the line to take Jennings but he had no reason to think he had do this as he would have assumed the defensive cover was getting across and even if he had it would have just created an even bigger hole for Jennings to offload into.

Zebo was not at fault.

GunsGerms wrote:You spelt Clongowes wrong Dod.

Dont you think a safer back three would be VdH, Earls and Jones? Would you not be concerned with Zebo's defence when up against such attacking players such as Clerc and Huget? No concerns?

Cant spell and cant read...

MunsterMac wrote:

Zeebs was still at fault for O'Driscoll's try.

You see Guns this is where you just say something for the sake of saying it without any basis in reality.

Zebo was playing on the wing and when Leinster spun the ball wide in the lead up to the try he held the defensive line perfectly covering his opposite number McFadden and keeping an eye on Jennings on his inside.

When Jennings got the ball Zebo continued to cover McFadden as he had to and left Jennings to Laulala on his inside.

The problem was that the Munster defensive cover was too slow getting across to cover  BOD, Kearney and D'Arcy (I think) who ran into a huge whole in the centre.

The only other thing Zebo could have done was to shoot out of the line to take Jennings but he had no reason to think he had do this as he would have assumed the defensive cover was getting across and even if he had it would have just created an even bigger hole for Jennings to offload into.

Zebo was not at fault.

I think Guns doesnt want to understand this because otherwise it would mean that BOD was at fault for the try in the second Lions test. Its probably a sub concious thing with him..

Zebo was at fault. When Jones tackled Jenno, Zebo had a decision to make. Attack the ruck/tackled player and turn the ball over or mark the guy coming through on the offload. In the end he did neither and nothing at all allowing Jennings to offload to Drico who had an easy gallop through to score. Granted it was sublime play from Leinster but better defender would not have allowed this to happen.

This passage of play perfectly demonstrates the two things that Schmidt highlighted to Zebo to work on and as such effectively vindicates Schmidt for not selecting him in the 6 nations.

How was the spelling Dod?

GunsGerms wrote:Zebo was at fault. When Jones tackled Jenno, Zebo had a decision to make. Attack the ruck/tackled player and turn the ball over or mark the guy coming through on the offload. In the end he did neither and nothing at all allowing Jennings to offload to Drico who had an easy gallop through to score. Granted it was sublime play from Leinster but better defender would not have allowed this to happen.

This passage of play perfectly demonstrates the two things that Schmidt highlighted to Zebo to work on and as such effectively vindicates Schmidt for not selecting him in the 6 nations.

How was the spelling Dod?

Oh jebus...Casey tackled Jennings get it right at least. Jones overran the line.

All it highlights is that Leinster supporters can foolishly comfort themselves that having a very average winger picked for Ireland who doesnt do much (except get run down by locks) are picked by a coach who prefers their wings to be resourcing rucks.

Ah well you see there's your first problem. Jones was nowhere near Jennings. It was Laulala who tackled Jennings.

The second problem is there was no ruck. Jennings was offloading as he hit the ground so no ruck formed.

Have you even looked at the replay??

There are many Munster players who you could point the finger at for this try but Zebo isn't one of them no matter how much you want him to be.

It hardly matters who tackled Jennings. At least their defense was ok. There was at least a second or two before Jennings offloaded enough time to commit to the turn over or defend an offload. He was completely in no mans land, he may as well not have been there.

A better defender in Zebo's position would be right on top of the tackled player as they hit the ground to force a turn over.

Would you describe Zebo as the Matt Le Tissier of Irish rugby? Good at doing the fancy stuff but not too bothered chipping in else where?

No I think you will find MunsterMacs analysis is the correct one and thanks Zebo is a very good all round winger does his defensive duties as well as if not better than most (has saved us on quite a number of occasions). So no concerns at all. Top scorer this year despite being injured and will be our overall top try scorer in a couple of years at a young age....lets see rarely misses a tackle, great positioning, great left boot...oh and most importantly doesnt get chased down by locks   

There was at least a second or two before Jennings offloaded enough time to commit to the turn over or defend an offload.

No there wasn't. He literally offloaded as he hit the ground.

I have to say though Guns the zeal you bring to your anti-Zebo agenda even in the face of overwhelming evidence is admirable in a sad kind of way.

Like all players I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find examples of poor defending on Zebo's part that we can all discuss like adults but until then give it a rest.

Looks Guns its quiet simple there was an overlap with heaps of pressure. It would have been considered a complete butchering of the chance if Leinster didnt score from that position.

Lets not forget Daverage was clearly at fault for the try against England and the try against France. According to your logic this proves Holy Joe was wrong to have daverage on the team.

MunsterMac wrote:

There was at least a second or two before Jennings offloaded enough time to commit to the turn over or defend an offload.

No there wasn't. He literally offloaded as he hit the ground.

I have to say though Guns the zeal you bring to your anti-Zebo agenda even in the face of overwhelming evidence is admirable in a sad kind of way.

Like all players I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find examples of poor defending on Zebo's part that we can all discuss like adults but until then give it a rest.

He offloaded after he hit the ground, enough time to challenge or cover the offload. It really is as simple as that. Cant understand how you can defend him when he cant defend to a sufficient standard himself. Zebo actually did nothing at all yet you seem to think that is fine?

How do you conclude there is an anti-Zebo agenda rather than a preference for other options?

Never let facts get in the way of a good WUM et Guns??

Either that or you watched the match in a chronologically shifted alternate Universe where "a second or two" equates to 'immediate' in our Universe.

I hope their is no other agenda with regards to Zebo Guns. I get that you want to support your own "boy" from clowngowes even if he is particularly average. This is obvious in your dislike for "rock" boy Luke Fitz for example.

Those are the facts. Good defenders are on top of the tackled player before they have time to offload. Zebo did absolutely nothing to stop that try when he was the one guy best placed to stop it. Can't be much more fair than that.

GunsGerms wrote:Those are the facts. Good defenders are on top of the tackled player before they have time to offload. Zebo did absolutely nothing to stop that try when he was the one guy best placed to stop it. Can't be much more fair than that.

They are the facts according to Guns parallel universe...For anyone else reading this check the video out for the reality...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPiKMb0GLOY

ME-109 wrote:I hope their is no other agenda with regards to Zebo Guns. I get that you want to support your own "boy" from clowngowes even if he is particularly average. This is obvious in your dislike for "rock" boy Luke Fitz for example.

"their"? Seriously Dod put your spell checker on if you are going to call others out on their spelling.

I don't care where a player went to school. Fitz and Kearney have nothing to do with this debate anyway.

Anyhow. Census Johnson is out. Picamoles, Nyanga and McAllister are travelling but could all be doubtful.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I hope their is no other agenda with regards to Zebo Guns. I get that you want to support your own "boy" from clowngowes even if he is particularly average. This is obvious in your dislike for "rock" boy Luke Fitz for example.

"their"? Seriously Dod put your spell checker on if you are going to call others out on their spelling.

I don't care where a player went to school. Fitz and Kearney have nothing to do with this debate anyway.

I hope it isnt anything else then with regards to Zebo Guns...you have an unhealthy dislike for him...making things up etc.

Fitz and Kearney have nothing to do with this debate anyway.

I have a feeling a lot of things have nothing to do with this debate like reality and facts.

ME-109 wrote:

I hope it isnt anything else then with regards to Zebo Guns...you have an unhealthy dislike for him...making things up etc.

Stop beating around the bush Dod what are you implying?

ME-109 wrote:Anyhow. Census Johnson is out. Picamoles, Nyanga and McAllister are travelling but could all be doubtful.

Back to the rugby...

Apparently the reports on POM are still that he is Iffy....

Anyone see the report from POCs interviews/media stint yesterday...very downbeat.

Not surprised.

I think it's a combination of disappointment at the performance against Leinster and the typical 'we're up against it' mentality for Saturday.

I also think there's a certain frustration that after 2 years Munster are still struggling with the 'Canterbury Way'.

MunsterMac wrote:Not surprised.

I think it's a combination of disappointment at the performance against Leinster and the typical 'we're up against it' mentality for Saturday.

I also think there's a certain frustration that after 2 years Munster are still struggling with the 'Canterbury Way'.

Well I really hope we go back to basics on Sat, solid scrum, good line out, MAUL, pack pick and go. And only go out wide when its clearly on. AKA Quinns match and Clermont match last year.

Same as last year would be better I agree. It actually suits Downey and LLL better (if he picks Downey). Its probable we will have the upper hand in the scrum so hopefully we get something from that. Maul them off the park as well. A good old Munster Senior cup gameplan

Since everyone seems to be a bit down about our chances against Toulouse, here is something to cheer everyone up. Russell Crowe (who owns a rugby league team in Aus) got into a spat with a journalist the other day over something and nothing, he tweeted this:  

Russell Crowe ‏@russellcrowe Mar 31
I know Ireland is a sovereign nation. You can imply I don't love Ireland but it won't stick, love the place, love the people.

Conor Higgins ‏@IrishFireDragon
@russellcrowe, good man Russell, come back to Dublin and we'll bring you to a real rugby game #LeinsterRugby

Russell Crowe ‏@russellcrowe
@IrishFireDragon Munster forever !!!

  
Nice we have some dedicated fans even if we're not very good!   

 Writin' songs and makin' films and fightin' 'round the world  

Spoiler:

Sin é wrote:Since everyone seems to be a bit down about our chances against Toulouse, here is something to cheer everyone up. Russell Crowe (who owns a rugby league team in Aus) got into a spat with a journalist the other day over something and nothing, he tweeted this:  

Russell Crowe ‏@russellcrowe Mar 31
I know Ireland is a sovereign nation. You can imply I don't love Ireland but it won't stick, love the place, love the people.

Conor Higgins ‏@IrishFireDragon
@russellcrowe, good man Russell, come back to Dublin and we'll bring you to a real rugby game #LeinsterRugby

Russell Crowe ‏@russellcrowe
@IrishFireDragon Munster forever !!!

  
Nice we have some dedicated fans even if we're not very good!   

Apparently he wore a Munster tie in the movie Proof of life. I think he is friends with Richard Harris which is possibly why he likes Munster.

I think he is friends with Richard Harris which is possibly why he likes Munster.

Of course Richard Harris is dead a good 10 years now.

MunsterMac wrote:

I think he is friends with Richard Harris which is possibly why he likes Munster.

Of course Richard Harris is dead a good 10 years now.

Thats true but proof of life was filmed about 15 years ago so it is possible he was friends with Harris at the time. Thats the explaination I heard anyway. There is a good clip of Harris and O'Toole on youtube at an Ireland game. Peter O'Toole was a connacht fan himself I think.

GunsGerms wrote:

MunsterMac wrote:

I think he is friends with Richard Harris which is possibly why he likes Munster.

Of course Richard Harris is dead a good 10 years now.

Thats true but proof of life was filmed about 15 years ago so it is possible he was friends with Harris at the time. Thats the explaination I heard anyway. There is a good clip of Harris and O'Toole on youtube at an Ireland game. Peter O'Toole was a connacht fan himself I think.

POT was a Connemara man through and through and definitely supported Connacht.

If I was from Connemara I'd be pretty proud about it too. Possibly my favorite part of the world.

Russell Crowe was in Gladiator with Harris and they were big drinking buddies I believe.

Crowe is a bit of gobshoite so you could guess the type of team he'd support   .

Haha Rodders, contraversial. Yes Gladiator that must have been it alright. He does fit the bill to be a Munster fan in some ways anyway.

Mickado wrote: Writin' songs and makin' films and fightin' 'round the world  

Spoiler:

Peter O'Mahony and Russell Crowe, fightin' around the world!

Sin é wrote:Since everyone seems to be a bit down about our chances against Toulouse, here is something to cheer everyone up. Russell Crowe (who owns a rugby league team in Aus) got into a spat with a journalist the other day over something and nothing, he tweeted this:  

Russell Crowe ‏@russellcrowe Mar 31
I know Ireland is a sovereign nation. You can imply I don't love Ireland but it won't stick, love the place, love the people.

Conor Higgins ‏@IrishFireDragon
@russellcrowe, good man Russell, come back to Dublin and we'll bring you to a real rugby game #LeinsterRugby

Russell Crowe ‏@russellcrowe
@IrishFireDragon Munster forever !!!

  
Nice we have some dedicated fans even if we're not very good!   

  

For The Attention of Guns.

This article in the Indo gives a good run down on Leinster's record in France which I thought might interest you:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/toulon-a-massive-test-but-we-know-we-have-it-in-us-reddan-30146946.html

rodders wrote:Russell Crowe was in Gladiator with Harris and they were big drinking buddies I believe.  

Crowe is a bit of gobshoite so you could guess the type of team he'd support   .

Agreed Crowe is a gobshite but in this interview looks like he met his equal with regard to being a 'pain in the ar$e'

Some things never change on here.

POM is average at best,

Earls cant pass so cant play centre,

and

Zebo is a very poor defender.


It used to make me laugh reading such drivel but I am seriously bored with it now.

Ah, here's what I really think;

POM isn't average. He's a very effective back row although he lacks top end power and pace, he has loads of aggression (sometimes too much!), guile and technique. So he can be incredibly frustrating to play against and incredibly useful to have in your side.

Zebo isn't a terribly poor defender- he's a pretty average defender- but will likely have to work his bollox off to smooth off the rough edges in his game. There are doubts over his attitude in this regard. He's super talented and he knows it. Now; is he willing to work his Love sacks off to be super talented and get those 1% improvements in every area. He'll either be a provincial hero to Munster fans and a provincial hero to Munster fans and a top international winger and the difference is basically going to be down to his willingness to work harder than his rivals for selection and attitude.

Keith Earls has the following weaknesses- never struck me as being very confident at the top level, never struck me as being a good decision maker, sometimes fails to execute skills under pressure. Mainly mental things as opposed to 'not being able to pass'. You would have said the same for Andrew Trimble until recently in an Ireland jersey though, so there's every chance he can add to his caps if he is persistent. But even if Keith Earls is playing at his very best the best parts of his game come down to finishing, creating opportunities for himself, and beating defenders one on one- as well as his pace. He's strongest when playing by instinct. He's not a tactician or creative player who can open up a defence with a deft offload, he's the guy you want to get the ball to in space. He's wasted at centre. He's just wasted there. It makes as much sense as putting Cave on the wing- now there's a centre, maybe not an international centre, but thats the kind of player you want there. Not an out and out finisher.

Now you can jump on my back or disagree with it, but you can't say its not fair.

Nachos Jones wrote:Some things never change on here.

POM is average at best,

Earls cant pass so cant play centre,

and

Zebo is a very poor defender.


It used to make me laugh reading such drivel but I am seriously bored with it now.

I think Earls can play centre personally. No need to be so sensitive, you are never going to agree with 100% of all posts you see on a forum. Maybe focus on the posts/articles that interest you?

Notch,

My rebuttal.

POM:
Leader, perfect captain for any side and very much in the POC mould. Certain Ireland Captain for the RWC.

Zebo:
He is much better than simply 'a pretty average defender', he is very solid in defence. Defence is certainly not something that I have concerns about with him.
As for his supposed attitude problems (aside from a few in his own private life) he has never shown any of that whilst being with Munster, in fact he is one of the hardest trainers on the ground and has a lot of respect from his peers in Munster.

Earls:
He has the vision, the speed and the ability to cut a team open. He also has a much better passing game than some on here may allude to. He is also and excellent supporting runner. He does seem to have confidence issues at times but he is quality and if shown faith at 13 and a decent run, he is very much the best future Ireland 13 option in my opinion.

You seem to think those three players are perfect.

POM "perfect captain". How do you know? I'd say POC, Sexton, Best or Heaslip are all ahead in the pecking order for the world cup captaincy.

Zebo. If Schmidt thinks his defense needs work that's good enough for me.

Earls. Agree on all that except "he is very much the best future Ireland 13 option". He is an option but possibly not the best option, up there though.

Well POM is already captain ahead of POC in Munster guns. I would say that the RWC captain is a two horse race between Sexton and POM. POM is a natural leader but has to pick and choose his words with ref's at times.

So all that Schmidt says is carved in stone as gospel? I have watched Zebo for years as well and I am truly not concerned about his defence.

With Earls, I said that if he is shown faith at 13 and given a decent run then I think that, not right now in these circumstances, only if he was given a lengthy run at 13.