Munster 2013/14

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Some news of players leaving Munster.

Doug Howlett has announced his retirement.

Other departures from the current squad - besides Peter Stringer who remains with Bath, Marcus Horan who announced his retirement recently, Sean Scanlon (Rotherham Titans) and Sean Henry (Connacht) - include Wian du Preez who returns to his native South Africa, Scott Deasy and Christy Condon.

BJ Botha will continue on with Munster having signed a two year contract extension while Danny Barnes has not been re-contracted but is understood to have negotiated an opportunity to play abroad and news of that will be confirmed in the coming weeks.

Nachos Jones wrote:Well POM is already captain ahead of POC in Munster guns. I would say that the RWC captain is a two horse race between Sexton and POM. POM is a natural leader but has to pick and choose his words with ref's at times.

So all that Schmidt says is carved in stone as gospel? I have watched Zebo for years as well and I am truly not concerned about his defence.

With Earls, I said that if he is shown faith at 13 and given a decent run then I think that, not right now in these circumstances, only if he was given a lengthy run at 13.

That's obviously because POM is likely to play more games. The provinces usually have a captain that is going to be available for a lot of games. Leo, POM, Muller etc. If POC is still around which he will be then he will be captain. The WC is next year it would be ridiculous to give the captaincy to a rookie captain.

Yes Schmidt knows a lot more about rugby than you do.

I would love to see what Schmidt could do with Earls. He is a sublime talent so there is still a chance he is our answer at 13 IMO.

Well POM has captained at all levels already so he is not really a rookie captain now is he and sure, aren't all new captains rookies? If Sexton were to be made Ireland Captain wouldn't he fall into the rookie category.

I am not saying that I know more than Schmidt. All I am saying is that I am able to watch and form my own views and not rely totally on someone else to form my opinions...

Nachos Jones wrote:Well POM has captained at all levels already so he is not really a rookie captain now is he and sure, aren't all new captains rookies? If Sexton were to be made Ireland Captain wouldn't he fall into the rookie category.

I am not saying that I know more than Schmidt. All I am saying is that I am able to watch and form my own views and not rely totally on someone else to form my opinions...

Enjoyed that..

He is a rookie captain at international level so he will not be captain at the world cup. Also there is a very good chance he wont be in the first team if Ferris returns to the levels he is capable of.

Sexton wont be captain but he is less a rookie because he has been an international for a lot longer than POM.

Yep, no problem with that.

Nachos Jones - do you think Paul O'Connell isn't going to the world cup or that Schmidt will dump him as captain?

Given Paulies evasion during questions that invited praise for JS...everything is possible...

Sin é,

I really hope that Paul goes to the RWC but I just have this niggling doubt in my mind that he wont. Cant really explain it but just a feeling I have. If he is not there then I honestly would have POM as captain.

POC only has 90 caps on the odometer. He will be good for another 15-20 at least I'd say.

Guns you seem to forget that zebo was selected for the Lions! That's something Daverage will never ever achieve with a neutral coach selecting the team.

Nachos Jones wrote:Sin é,

I really hope that Paul goes to the RWC but I just have this niggling doubt in my mind that he wont. Cant really explain it but just a feeling I have. If he is not there then I honestly would have POM as captain.

Only reason he won't be there is if he is injured. I wouldn't be surprised though if he lost the captaincy.

BlueMuff wrote:Guns you seem to forget that zebo was selected for the Lions! That's something Daverage will never ever achieve with a neutral coach selecting the team.

He was called up as injury cover and never remotely threatened the first team,he was behind Sean Maitland.It's not exactly a ringing endorsement now is it.I find the petty nicknames you've give Dave Kearney players a good indicator of what type of supporter you are,any player you don't like you abuse,top class Irish fans down south,best fans in the world.   

There does appear to be a certain level of animosity between Schmidt and Paul so it would not surprise me if he wasn't selected or if selected, lost the captaincy. I just see POM being a long term captain for Ireland.

On the game tomorrow, I know Penny wants to keep Keatley as starting 10 for the HC but JJ is surely putting him under a lot of pressure to start him there.

Nachos Jones wrote:There does appear to be a certain level of animosity between Schmidt and Paul so it would not surprise me if he wasn't selected or if selected, lost the captaincy. I just see POM being a long term captain for Ireland.

On the game tomorrow, I know Penny wants to keep Keatley as starting 10 for the HC but JJ is surely putting him under a lot of pressure to start him there.

Its all in your head. Typical Munster conspiracy. The world is against us down here, you are only guessing based on absolutely nothing yet again.

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:There does appear to be a certain level of animosity between Schmidt and Paul so it would not surprise me if he wasn't selected or if selected, lost the captaincy. I just see POM being a long term captain for Ireland.

On the game tomorrow, I know Penny wants to keep Keatley as starting 10 for the HC but JJ is surely putting him under a lot of pressure to start him there.

Its all in your head. Typical Munster conspiracy. The world is against us down here.

Guns, there is no Munster conspiracy here. I will explain this to you again, I watch and observe things and from that I form my own opinion. I am not claiming that all Munster fans see this, this is my own opinion.

This must be simple for even you to understand, this is the beauty of a forum where everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Exactly what did you watch and observe? Sin when he made the same comments? The only people that think there is any anamosity between the two are from Munster. Coincidence? It is quite pathetic.

Seems to be lingering bitterness over the time O'Connell got in trouble for kicking Kearney in the head.

I observe the body language of people GunsGerms, I cant help it if others may have observed the same thing. I am neither claiming it as being true, I am saying that it is my opinion.

I have not called you pathetic for your series of negative comments directed towards Zebo and POM as I feel you are entitled to your own opinion.

Ive been called worse. You described it as drivel which isnt much different anyway. You seem reasonable so Ill explain. The issue I have is generally I cant criticise a Munster player without being accused of having a irrational hate for that player. I criticise Ulster, Leinster, Connacht players just as much but seldom experience the same frenzied feral responses.

Dod went so far as to imply that with Zebo I have some underlying non-rugby reason for disliking him. I think it was fairly clear what he was implying which is really really sad. All I have done is criticise him in response to the gushing praise he tends get on this thread.

To claim two people dont get along without any evidence other than "body language" is seriously clutching at straws. I get the impression that a section of Munster fans would actually like to believe that they dont get on because they dont like Schmidt themselves. Paul good, Schmidt bad.

As Sin said POC returned to Munster "to his people" implying the rest of the Ireland team and management arent his people. Attitudes like this are a little sad. The biggest statement of confidence that any manager can make in a player is to make them captain and that's what Schmidt did with POC. I think that tells us all we really need to know. You dont need to be best friend with your manager but I have no doubt there is mutual respect there.

Nachos Jones wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:There does appear to be a certain level of animosity between Schmidt and Paul so it would not surprise me if he wasn't selected or if selected, lost the captaincy. I just see POM being a long term captain for Ireland.

On the game tomorrow, I know Penny wants to keep Keatley as starting 10 for the HC but JJ is surely putting him under a lot of pressure to start him there.

Its all in your head. Typical Munster conspiracy. The world is against us down here.

Guns, there is no Munster conspiracy here. I will explain this to you again, I watch and observe things and from that I form my own opinion. I am not claiming that all Munster fans see this, this is my own opinion.

This must be simple for even you to understand, this is the beauty of a forum where everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

From an observation of these threads it seems as though you've formed your 'own' opinion, which happens to be the same as the opinions of DOD and Sin, the only other people I've come across with that opinion. Coincidence? Its all a bit sensationalist. While believing the stories can be good craic, the truth is often quite banal.

I'm sure POC has a professional relationship with Schimdt, and admires his unquestionable ability as a coach. Suggestions that Paul is strongly hostile towards Schmidt are frankly insulting to the man. You're indirectly comparing himself and Joe's relationship to that of Morgan Parra and St Andre. Paul and Joe are leagues ahead in maturity and ability.

If you want to get into the nitty gritty- POC complimented Schmidt, and said that he was very impressed in his interview after the England game. Kearney's try was a classic Schmidt half time audible, and according to Paul the fact that it worked filled the team with confidence.

The reason for Paul's occasional reluctance to wax lyrical about Schmidt is obvious. Schmidt has received a simply ridiculous amount of praise of late in the Irish, English, French and Kiwi media. POC rightly feels that adding to that mountain of worship is pointless, and instead opts to offer praise to Kidney and co, whom linger in poor public memory following an unlucky final season.

The same thing was going on when Kidney took over, players tipped the hat towards EOS following the GS.

Guns, someone on Munsterfans (lots of friends/family of the players post on there so I wouldn't dismiss it) said that there was a bit of a falling out between them. Schmidt told POC on the Tuesday/Wednesday who his team was for the French game (which I gather had D Ryan & Tommy O'Donnell involved in the squad). POC told them they would be involved and then, without saying he was going to do it, Schmidt announced a completely different squad on the Thursday without saying pre announcement that he had changed his mind.

If that happened, I can see how mutual respect would be lost.

Sin é wrote:Guns, someone on Munsterfans (lots of friends/family of the players post on there so I wouldn't dismiss it) said that there was a bit of a falling out between them. Schmidt told POC on the Tuesday/Wednesday who his team was for the French game (which I gather had D Ryan & Tommy O'Donnell involved in the squad). POC told them they would be involved and then, without saying he was going to do it, Schmidt announced a completely different squad on the Thursday without saying pre announcement that he had changed his mind.

If that happened, I can see how mutual respect would be lost.

Fairly stupid of POC to go telling players they are in the squad before it is announced. Also why just those guys? As Ireland captain surely it doesnt reflect well on himself to be ringing his Munster team mates telling them they are in the squad to congratulate them. It isnt his responsibility to do so anyway, he isnt coach. However, it sounds like a fairly tall story/chinese whisper.

kunu wrote:The reason for Paul's occasional reluctance to wax lyrical about Schmidt is obvious. Schmidt has received a simply ridiculous amount of praise of late in the Irish, English, French and Kiwi media. POC rightly feels that adding to that mountain of worship is pointless, and instead opts to offer praise to Kidney and co, whom linger in poor public memory following an unlucky final season.

The most POC has said about Schmidt is that he is world class on 'detail' which reminds me of being told on a leadershipship & motivation course to always try and find something good to say about someone even if they were Poopie at everything else.

kunu wrote:

I'm sure POC has a professional relationship with Schimdt, and admires his unquestionable ability as a coach. Suggestions that Paul is strongly hostile towards Schmidt are frankly insulting to the man. You're indirectly comparing himself and Joe's relationship to that of Morgan Parra and St Andre. Paul and Joe are leagues ahead in maturity and ability.

I am very sorry but where did I say that?

I have made some personal observations and have formed a personal opinion. I have also never claimed that Paul and Schmidt do not have a professional relationship with mutual respect.

Notch wrote:

Mickado wrote: Writin' songs and makin' films and fightin' 'round the world  

Spoiler:

Peter O'Mahony and Russell Crowe, fightin' around the world!

Simon Zebo & David Rudisha running rings around everyone around the world   


David Rudisha MBS ‏@rudishadavid Apr 2
To the brave and faithful, nothing is impossible. @Munsterrugby

That could well be true, but I Honestly think POC is mature enough not to hold a grudge against a coach (who's got a reputation for wide selections) for changing his mind. Its a professional game, and Joe is clearly an ultra professional coach who's only picking the players he thinks will do the job at hand. He isn't trying to cheer anyone up or boost careers. A man of POC's stature is bound to understand that.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:The reason for Paul's occasional reluctance to wax lyrical about Schmidt is obvious. Schmidt has received a simply ridiculous amount of praise of late in the Irish, English, French and Kiwi media. POC rightly feels that adding to that mountain of worship is pointless, and instead opts to offer praise to Kidney and co, whom linger in poor public memory following an unlucky final season.

The most POC has said about Schmidt is that he is world class on 'detail' which reminds me of being told on a leadershipship & motivation course to always try and find something good to say about someone even if they were Poopie at everything else.

So you reckon POC doesnt rate Schmidt?

Nachos Jones wrote:There does appear to be a certain level of animosity between Schmidt and Paul .

Definition of animosity :

an·i·mos·i·ty
ˌanəˈmäsitē/Submit
noun
1.
strong hostility.
"he no longer felt any animosity toward her"

Now, you say you didn't mean to convey the sense of strong hostility. Yet, you used the word animosity. Now we've got sensationalism.

sen·sa·tion·al·ism
senˈsāSHənlˌizəm/Submit
noun
1.
(esp. in journalism) the use of exciting or shocking stories or language at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement.

I'm aware this seems quite petty, but its simple fact.

This is all largely irrelavant given the weekend thats in it. Guns shouldnt you be over on the Leinster thread discussing approach and tactics to beat Toulon instead of trolling around here.

Great article by Liam Toland in this mornings IT on how Munster dismantled the Leinster scrum (legally) by targeting Ross and not Bent as many thought they would.

Kanu,

That could be one of the most patronising posts I have read on here.

Just to clear things up for you, I said a 'certain' level of animosity. The key word being certain and could quite easily be also interpreted as very low level. The sensationalism that you also refer to has been solely brought into this debate by you. If you wanted slightly more elaboration in regards to what I said then the mature option to take would be to ask.

kunu wrote:That could well be true, but I Honestly think POC is mature enough not to hold a grudge against a coach (who's got a reputation for wide selections) for changing his mind. Its a professional game, and Joe is clearly an ultra professional coach who's only picking the players he thinks will do the job at hand. He isn't trying to cheer anyone up or boost careers. A man of POC's stature is bound to understand that.

Of course he is isn't. But not trusting your coach, or your coach not trusting a player (let alone his captain) isn't going to work well.

No doubt POC will be very professional about it, but if/when, things are not going well, that team will fall apart.

Of course Schmidt can change his mind, but he should have told POC he had. Why did he tell POC in the first place - was he trying to catch him out or something? D Ryan & TOD were completely dumped out of the squad for a few teenagers.

Jaysus lads get over yerselves. POC has nothing but good things to say about Joe and visa versa.

Nachos,

Presenting facts as simply as possible is facilitative, not patronising. This is a debating forum. You asked me for clarification, and I used definitions to eliminate the possibility of subjectivity - it was clear you and I didn't share the same definition of animosity from your initial reply.

My point here is that the notion of POC and Schmidt not getting along to the point of POC being dropped from the team, is sensationalist in my opinion.

Kunu,

You unfortunately sensationalised my personal opinion by not affording me the respect by means of request for elaboration.

As I explained to GunsGerms, this is a forum whereby people are afforded their own personal opinions. These are my opinions, whether they be correct or not.

Sensationalist to the point of being a self fullfilling prophecy almost? In that I suspect it would appease your bog standard Munster fan to see this happen as they would have something tangable to whinge about when there isnt much but conjecture and fantasy to complain about with Schmidt as coach. Is that fair to say?

kunu wrote:facilitative  

Swallow a dictionary ???

Anyone know if Nyanga or Picamoles will be fit for this one. Nyanga is an absolute beast so it would be really terrible if he was not playing.......

GunsGerms wrote:Sensationalist to the point of being a self fullfilling prophecy almost? In that I suspect it would appease your bog standard Munster fan to see this happen as they would have something tangable to whinge about when there isnt much but conjecture and fantasy to complain about with Schmidt as coach. Is that fair to say?

No it would not please me to see this happening as I think that Paul is a very essential member to the Ireland team.

Well here are the facts...

In two interviews following the win in France (one immediately pitchside) POC was asked his opinion of JS and what he had brought to the team. On both occasions Paulie ignored the question and in the pitchside interview mentioned what DK and EOS had done in building up the team and the work done previously in bringing players through. Allied to what Sin É has said concerning comments on Munsterfans this would show a certain level of tension between the two. Even in the interview where POC mentioned the level of detail that JS was interested in it looked as if he felt it was over the top.

On top of that the treatment of certain players (more so in the communication of squads who was in/out/or needed to work on stuff) was very poor. This happened mostly with some of the Munster players (as well as Luke Marshall). These are the players paulie plays and trains with week in week out.

JS won a championship with mostly Leinster players...well done to him it worked, he got lucky. But then all coaches have good or bad luck on their side. The way it panned out for Munster players was not good. Its funny that people would think Munster players/supporters would feel anything other than hard done by, given there were some teenagers picked in 50/50 call as Sin É said.

Anyhow can you all now rock on back to the Goys section so we can talk about the QF. We can reconvene if/when both teams meet in the semi.

BlueMuff wrote:Anyone know if Nyanga or Picamoles will be fit for this one. Nyanga is an absolute beast so it would be really terrible if he was not playing.......

All three travelled and are 50/50 (McAllister, Nyanga and Picamoles). I think we could handle Picamoles but Nyanga is another thing altogether....

Edit - Looks like they are going to throw POM in even if not 100% fit. Last year he was not fully fit for the Quins and Clermont game and was still very important for us...

 "He got lucky". You are great craic Dod, why would anyone rock back to "the goys section" with entertainment such as that on tap over here?

Toulouse team named - no McAllister or Nyanga but they have left 2 bench slots free so wouldnt be surprised to see both of them start.

DOD did you see Liam Tolands article this morning - great article on how Munster demolished Leinster scrum by targeting ross and not Bent.

Nachos I apologise. Don't post here too often, so had a look back through a few threads and realised I'm guilty of assuming you share the opinions of a couple other avid Munster fans who do very much consistently sensationalise the situation, often in jest. Was wrong.

Doesn't change my opinion that the situation concerning POC and Joe is pie in the sky

Any of the examples of animosity between POC and Schmidt provided seem to be one way only. If POC hates Schmidt as much as Munster fans claim then perhaps he isnt suited for the captaincy role?

If I understand correctly Schmidt should pick more Munster players in order to please his captain? I love laughing.

BlueMuff wrote:Toulouse team named - no McAllister or Nyanga but they have left 2 bench slots free so wouldnt be surprised to see both of them start.

DOD did you see Liam Tolands article this morning - great article on how Munster demolished Leinster scrum by targeting ross and not Bent.

Yes saw the article...hopefully we get parity at least in the scrum, will need BJ for the full 80. Whats the complete lineup for Toulouse...can you post it.

Shoite...apparently Cronin is out with a bad ankle....

Toulouse are as follows.
Medard
Huget
Fritz
Fickou
Gear
Beauxis
Vermaak
Picamoles
Tekari
Camara
Albacete
Maestri
Montes
Tolofua
Steenkamp

The No.6 Camara is going to be a great player. He was in the French u.20s this year very impressive.

The ERC site has the following as replacements
16. Jaba Bregvadze, 17. Cyril Baille, 18. Schalk Ferreira, 19. Romain Millo-Chluski, 20. Gillian Galan, 21. Jean-Marc Doussain, 22. Luke McAlister, 23. Yannick Nyanga

But the Toulouse site doesnt....seems Noves is trying the old GAA thing...

Current suggested Munster team...

Mun XV: Jones, Earls, Laulala, Downey, Zebo, Keatley, Murray, Kilcoyne, Varley, Botha, Foley, POC, POM Capt., TOD, Coughlan

Replacements: Casey, J Ryan, Cotter, O’Callaghan, CJ, Williams, JJ, GVDH

Thats some back line:

Medard, Huget, Fritz, Fickou, Gear.

Defense will have to be water tight to keep them out.

Camara looked good against the under 20s earlier in the year. Very big dude.

On paper we look a lot weaker....but the game isnt played on paper...still its a big ask and we will need to play like we did last year at this stage...

Is Archer out injured too? Gonna be a tough day for your front row.

Yep...we will need BJ and Killer for the whole game by the looks of things. Ryan is OK (havent seen Cotter too much) but with Archer and Cronin missing it makes things a lot more difficult