Oz rugby...For once I agree with Rattue...well

For much of the first four paragraphs...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-sport-analysis/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502180&objectid=10883137

The remaining dribble about NZ I don't believe is anywhere near the average Kiwi's thinking.

For one I'm excited about this years AB's, the way way overdue emergence of Auckland as a true rugby force, even though there is still a long way to go.

But back to the title.

Based on this years sxv matches alone, Oz have truly got some momentum going after last years horrors. The Lions have toured one year too late and are going to cop what could be the start of another strong Ozzie spell, a la the early and late 90's. Its no coincidence the World cup in xv is in the NH- the venue of Oz's two wins. Robbie Deans finally has some real toys to play with now there's a few back in the cot and I don't think he's going to waste this opportunity.

In terms of improvement alone, put some long term money on Oz in xv and a quid or two on a 3-0 sweep vs the Lions.

I have picked 2-1 all along but am slowly tending towards the sweep.

Taylorman, my take on this is that it is a Super xv article as opposed to International rugby, dont worry about the reference to the Auckland blues, thats just Rats having a go at Ted, theyve been fueding for years.

Yeah I know youre a fan, Id forgotten that. Perhaps tomorrow nights match might settle some of the comments. I'd certainly extend the Oz improvement into the International arena, like he said- regardless of whether they win the sxv or not, Oz are certainly on the rise. How on earth the Force have won matches with next to no one in he side except Albie astounds me.

Folau's certainly brought the ariel game into play well and he's now a likely starter though something tells me a rehab inspired Beale will somehow get into this side- Beales career somewhat coinciding with RD's- he's a fan thats for sure.

seems to me gatland has picked his tour with only the W in mind, the fact is in modern pro rugby nothing else matters and those unfortunate romantics who yearn for the days of creativity and guile and who want to see an embattled lions scrape victory from the jaws of defeat are unlikely to get what they want. gats is solely concerned with a series win, and quite right too. Yes if we go 1 down and scrape it back then all well and good but truth is he has picked a statisticians team of blunt inatruments and is intent on leaving littke to chance....no zebo for example, the closest thing the Home nations has to an audacious back, well maybe hogg too. It will be roper dope rugby, only the aussies ain't no dopes. 2-1 wallabies

Tman

I agree the Force victories are unexplainable, but good on them.
To judge the Blues and see whether they are the real deal depends on what happens on their trip to Bloemfontein and Durban.

Whatever happens its still a darn side better then last year.

100%beefy wrote:seems to me gatland has picked his tour with only the W in mind, the fact is in modern pro rugby nothing else matters and those unfortunate romantics who yearn for the days of creativity and guile and who want to see an embattled lions scrape victory from the jaws of defeat are unlikely to get what they want. gats is solely concerned with a series win, and quite right too. Yes if we go 1 down and scrape it back then all well and good but truth is he has picked a statisticians team of blunt inatruments and is intent on leaving littke to chance....no zebo for example, the closest thing the Home nations has to an audacious back, well maybe hogg too. It will be roper dope rugby, only the aussies ain't no dopes. 2-1 wallabies

Whih is really why I went for Farrell as Gats no.1 10. But even he's losing confidence.

The problem for me is theres nothing new with this lot (Lions). We've seen what they can all do, where in the short few months Oz are going through something of a mini- rennaisance for them with talent coming out of every nook and crannie- Floau leading the way there. And doubly better for them the hardened guys who backboned the wins of a couple of years ago- Cooper, Horwill, Genia, AAC and until last week JOC and Beale are there also.

Gats has no choice but to play it safe but down this way that can be a very tough road- especially if tries are needed in the last 20.

Earlier in the year Rattue was gloating about how the Aussies were dominating against our S15 teams, and saying that he wants it to continue, with the convicts winning lots of titles so that our All Blacks would have to start performing at S15 level

Now we've faced the lesser teams more often (rebels and force) and the ledger has evened up, so he produces his Aussie rugby in good shape article.

So they've got two good teams (reds, brumbies), an ok team (Waratahs) and two alsorans (rebels, force). We've got four good teams, and an also ran. How that suggests the convicts are better than us is mindboggling. And also, Aus rugby is in the poo poo, money wise. Hardly good shape that

Taylorman wrote:

100%beefy wrote:seems to me gatland has picked his tour with only the W in mind, the fact is in modern pro rugby nothing else matters and those unfortunate romantics who yearn for the days of creativity and guile and who want to see an embattled lions scrape victory from the jaws of defeat are unlikely to get what they want. gats is solely concerned with a series win, and quite right too. Yes if we go 1 down and scrape it back then all well and good but truth is he has picked a statisticians team of blunt inatruments and is intent on leaving littke to chance....no zebo for example, the closest thing the Home nations has to an audacious back, well maybe hogg too. It will be roper dope rugby, only the aussies ain't no dopes. 2-1 wallabies

Whih is really why I went for Farrell as Gats no.1 10. But even he's losing confidence.

The problem for me is theres nothing new with this lot (Lions). We've seen what they can all do, where in the short few months Oz are going through something of a mini- rennaisance for them with talent coming out of every nook and crannie- Floau leading the way there. And doubly better for them the hardened guys who backboned the wins of a couple of years ago- Cooper, Horwill, Genia, AAC and until last week JOC and Beale are there also.

Gats has no choice but to play it safe but down this way that can be a very tough road- especially if tries are needed in the last 20.

Oh dear...

Are you really claiming that the likes of Mogg, Foloau etc are the complete players who are going to step onto the international stage to whitewash an immensely talented and experienced lions team?

Are you claiming that Beales implosion, JOC and Pococks injuries are actually going to strngthen Aus? Are you claiming that Coopers first return since hissy fit station will help the team morale? Horwill and AAC returning to good form is all well and good, but Aus lost players who had more about them last year too, Sharpe was immense, and tbh this is the weaket lock and centre partnership options I have ever seen from Aus, they are one step from popping Ioanie at 13, or Harris at 12

The Brumbies have started well, and the Reds are going well too, but they are both solid playing staff who are coached excellently, and have a clear and workable gameplan that suits their style, opposing that is the Welsh contingent, some of whom didn't win a game of rugby for 8 months, including the lions captain and favourites for the 12 and 15 shirts, not to mention the amount of players Wales had injured last season which was comparible to Aus.

Aus 'nightmare' season still involved the Reds riding high, the Brumbies just missing out and the Tah's and Rebels well... where they are now. So the difference is literally a spike in Brumbies form, thats it!

I agree however a whitewash is a very real possibility, but I don't see Aus doing it at all, normally when you hear comments from coaches regarding getting their house in order and it doesn't matter what the opposition do it's BS, but this time Gats only has to get the team playing at 80% to beat the Aussies in my opinion, there is very little to worry about if the lions get things right.

I said it before the tour, and will stick with it 3 - 0 lions.

I think the OP is right and it will probably be 3-0 to the Aussies.

It's tough getting the Lions side together in such a short period of time (especially the way it seems to be heading at the moment - I'm not sure the players will want to pull together as much as on previous tours) and I think the Aussies will just be too good.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I think the OP is right and it will probably be 3-0 to the Aussies.

It's tough getting the Lions side together in such a short period of time (especially the way it seems to be heading at the moment - I'm not sure the players will want to pull together as much as on previous tours) and I think the Aussies will just be too good.

2-1 to the Lions, no question. Australia are grossly over rated. There will be three bruising tests and lots of injuries. They have already lost two of their best players JOC and Pocock and Beale and Cooper are 50/50 for inclusion and a ball hasnt even been kicked.

Lions have a stronger squad overall and will be too much for the Aussies.

I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

Anyone remember the '09 tour. Probably the most brusing rugby ever recorded. Think I remember hearing that there was a small tsunami off the coast of Cape town from the after shock of the second test.

The Aussies wont have the beef to deal with the wave of pain thats gonna hit them.

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It works both ways Billtong. We all know who you are backing anyway.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I think the OP is right and it will probably be 3-0 to the Aussies.

It's tough getting the Lions side together in such a short period of time (especially the way it seems to be heading at the moment - I'm not sure the players will want to pull together as much as on previous tours) and I think the Aussies will just be too good.

What's funny? Lions sides rarely win a series.

I just don't get this massive confidence.

I also think the Aussies are being underrated. We won't bash them into submission.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It works both ways Billtong. We all know who you are backing anyway.

Of course it works both ways, but thus far I have seen more respectful behaviour from the one side to the debate than the other.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I think the OP is right and it will probably be 3-0 to the Aussies.

It's tough getting the Lions side together in such a short period of time (especially the way it seems to be heading at the moment - I'm not sure the players will want to pull together as much as on previous tours) and I think the Aussies will just be too good.

What's funny? Lions sides rarely win a series.

I just don't get this massive confidence.

I also think the Aussies are being underrated. We won't bash them into submission.

The Lions have won more matches v Aus than they have lost.

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It has far less to do with SH/NH confidence arrogance etc, and far more to do with facts.

For all the bigging up of Aus there is no actual evidence that they are improved from last year at all, a spike in Brumbies form and the return of Georg Smith does not compensate for the Cooper/Beale mess, the loss of key players to injury / retirement, or the uneven and unbalanced look to the squad.

For me the lions played SA at their strongest, world champs who were no.1 on the planet, and it was some of the most brutal rugby ever recorded, if this lions squad can reproduce that level of unity, and commitment then they have the stronger squad and better players comfortably.

I'm not saying the Lions will definately win 3-0, but if Gatland gets his house in order, unites the team correctly then I think there is little Aus can do, and their 'nightmare' season is far from over.

Youngster carving up the Super league still need testing on the international stage, older experienced heads aren't performing great, and the squad looks a little desperate, the back row combinations look weak, Higg isn't an effective 8, Hooper and Gill are untested in a tour like this, the centre options are lacking something, and there is no lock to partner Horwill.

Key for Aus will be Cooper, he needs to get back into the squad, be treated like nothing has happened and all past dispensed of, then his partnership with Genia realised to it's fullest, that is a lot of trust to put on that little **** IMHO!

Lots of pigeon chest strutting here. Good to see.

I think the point Rattue was making is that in the future Australia will reap the rewards of a bigger performance base. That won't come in time for the Lions series. But like previous predictions I think we need consistent perforances across the board before we start making these statements. I seem to recall that there was talk of player depth in 2011 and that was exposed in the RWC and last year. Encouraging signs for sure but let's wait and see before we make future predictions. Much like the Lions.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It works both ways Billtong. We all know who you are backing anyway.

Of course it works both ways, but thus far I have seen more respectful behaviour from the one side to the debate than the other.

Come off it Billtong, thats ridiculous.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It works both ways Billtong. We all know who you are backing anyway.

Of course it works both ways, but thus far I have seen more respectful behaviour from the one side to the debate than the other.

Well in all fairness you havn't seen any disrespecfull comments from here, opinions are opinions and disrespectfull comments would mean you having to act as a mod.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It has far less to do with SH/NH confidence arrogance etc, and far more to do with facts.

For all the bigging up of Aus there is no actual evidence that they are improved from last year at all, a spike in Brumbies form and the return of Georg Smith does not compensate for the Cooper/Beale mess, the loss of key players to injury / retirement, or the uneven and unbalanced look to the squad.

For me the lions played SA at their strongest, world champs who were no.1 on the planet, and it was some of the most brutal rugby ever recorded, if this lions squad can reproduce that level of unity, and commitment then they have the stronger squad and better players comfortably.

I'm not saying the Lions will definately win 3-0, but if Gatland gets his house in order, unites the team correctly then I think there is little Aus can do, and their 'nightmare' season is far from over.

Youngster carving up the Super league still need testing on the international stage, older experienced heads aren't performing great, and the squad looks a little desperate, the back row combinations look weak, Higg isn't an effective 8, Hooper and Gill are untested in a tour like this, the centre options are lacking something, and there is no lock to partner Horwill.

Key for Aus will be Cooper, he needs to get back into the squad, be treated like nothing has happened and all past dispensed of, then his partnership with Genia realised to it's fullest, that is a lot of trust to put on that little **** IMHO!

Hey, I am not saying you can't disagree, but a bit of diplomacy goes a long way

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It has far less to do with SH/NH confidence arrogance etc, and far more to do with facts.

For all the bigging up of Aus there is no actual evidence that they are improved from last year at all, a spike in Brumbies form and the return of Georg Smith does not compensate for the Cooper/Beale mess, the loss of key players to injury / retirement, or the uneven and unbalanced look to the squad.

For me the lions played SA at their strongest, world champs who were no.1 on the planet, and it was some of the most brutal rugby ever recorded, if this lions squad can reproduce that level of unity, and commitment then they have the stronger squad and better players comfortably.

I'm not saying the Lions will definately win 3-0, but if Gatland gets his house in order, unites the team correctly then I think there is little Aus can do, and their 'nightmare' season is far from over.

Youngster carving up the Super league still need testing on the international stage, older experienced heads aren't performing great, and the squad looks a little desperate, the back row combinations look weak, Higg isn't an effective 8, Hooper and Gill are untested in a tour like this, the centre options are lacking something, and there is no lock to partner Horwill.

Key for Aus will be Cooper, he needs to get back into the squad, be treated like nothing has happened and all past dispensed of, then his partnership with Genia realised to it's fullest, that is a lot of trust to put on that little **** IMHO!

Hey, I am not saying you can't disagree, but a bit of diplomacy goes a long way

Well I can apologies about calling Cooper a name, and sorry if any offence was taken by the SH contingent (I just dislike certain characters and attitudes in the game, Mike Phillips is another **** if that helps) but the rest is pretty factual don't you think?

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It works both ways Billtong. We all know who you are backing anyway.

Of course it works both ways, but thus far I have seen more respectful behaviour from the one side to the debate than the other.

Come off it Billtong, thats ridiculous.

Guns I think it was you who suggested the Lions will win 3-0 a few weeks ago, nobody laughed at you, did they?

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It works both ways Billtong. We all know who you are backing anyway.

Of course it works both ways, but thus far I have seen more respectful behaviour from the one side to the debate than the other.

Come off it Billtong, thats ridiculous.

Guns I think it was you who suggested the Lions will win 3-0 a few weeks ago, nobody laughed at you, did they?

Ask cyril...

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I think the OP is right and it will probably be 3-0 to the Aussies.

It's tough getting the Lions side together in such a short period of time (especially the way it seems to be heading at the moment - I'm not sure the players will want to pull together as much as on previous tours) and I think the Aussies will just be too good.

What's funny? Lions sides rarely win a series.

I just don't get this massive confidence.

I also think the Aussies are being underrated. We won't bash them into submission.

The Lions have won more matches v Aus than they have lost.

Yeah but remember that even up to the early 90s AUS had as few as 10,000 regular players in union. Prior to the 80s, AUS were whipping boys as their pool of players probably consisted of chaps who played a few games for a laugh whilst backpacking through Europe.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
It has far less to do with SH/NH confidence arrogance etc, and far more to do with facts.

For all the bigging up of Aus there is no actual evidence that they are improved from last year at all, a spike in Brumbies form and the return of Georg Smith does not compensate for the Cooper/Beale mess, the loss of key players to injury / retirement, or the uneven and unbalanced look to the squad.

For me the lions played SA at their strongest, world champs who were no.1 on the planet, and it was some of the most brutal rugby ever recorded, if this lions squad can reproduce that level of unity, and commitment then they have the stronger squad and better players comfortably.

I'm not saying the Lions will definately win 3-0, but if Gatland gets his house in order, unites the team correctly then I think there is little Aus can do, and their 'nightmare' season is far from over.

Youngster carving up the Super league still need testing on the international stage, older experienced heads aren't performing great, and the squad looks a little desperate, the back row combinations look weak, Higg isn't an effective 8, Hooper and Gill are untested in a tour like this, the centre options are lacking something, and there is no lock to partner Horwill.

Key for Aus will be Cooper, he needs to get back into the squad, be treated like nothing has happened and all past dispensed of, then his partnership with Genia realised to it's fullest, that is a lot of trust to put on that little **** IMHO!

Bang on Bluesman. Some of the reasons why Aus will whitewash the Lions are laughable:

Cooper will be playing - The Guy is a shambles attitude wise and has played one test match in 2 years.

Young bucks playing well in super 15 - Folau, christian lealiifano, Mogg will be Australia's saviours. - There is no way a load of debutants will be in Deans' team and if they are they will get a rude awakeining when test rugby hits them.

fa0019 wrote:
Yeah but remember that even up to the early 90s AUS had as few as 10,000 regular players in union. Prior to the 80s, AUS were whipping boys as their pool of players probably consisted of chaps who played a few games for a laugh whilst backpacking through Europe.

I was responding to the comment that the Lions rarely win series. The records show they do v Aus.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:I find it amusing that when a SH supporter thinks the Wallabies will win the series 3-0 it is shunned and laughed off, but when a NH supporter says it, it is called confidence.

It works both ways Billtong. We all know who you are backing anyway.

Of course it works both ways, but thus far I have seen more respectful behaviour from the one side to the debate than the other.

Come off it Billtong, thats ridiculous.

Guns I think it was you who suggested the Lions will win 3-0 a few weeks ago, nobody laughed at you, did they?

Feel free to laugh at me if you want. I dont think a 3 - 0 Lions series withewash is beyond the realms of possibility. Hopefully this is their aim.

Not by 3-0. It can happen but there's a psychological factor you have to bring into the equation. You can feel free to point out the weaknesses of Australia but mental toughness is not one of them.

GunsGerms wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
It has far less to do with SH/NH confidence arrogance etc, and far more to do with facts.

For all the bigging up of Aus there is no actual evidence that they are improved from last year at all, a spike in Brumbies form and the return of Georg Smith does not compensate for the Cooper/Beale mess, the loss of key players to injury / retirement, or the uneven and unbalanced look to the squad.

For me the lions played SA at their strongest, world champs who were no.1 on the planet, and it was some of the most brutal rugby ever recorded, if this lions squad can reproduce that level of unity, and commitment then they have the stronger squad and better players comfortably.

I'm not saying the Lions will definately win 3-0, but if Gatland gets his house in order, unites the team correctly then I think there is little Aus can do, and their 'nightmare' season is far from over.

Youngster carving up the Super league still need testing on the international stage, older experienced heads aren't performing great, and the squad looks a little desperate, the back row combinations look weak, Higg isn't an effective 8, Hooper and Gill are untested in a tour like this, the centre options are lacking something, and there is no lock to partner Horwill.

Key for Aus will be Cooper, he needs to get back into the squad, be treated like nothing has happened and all past dispensed of, then his partnership with Genia realised to it's fullest, that is a lot of trust to put on that little **** IMHO!

Bang on Bluesman. Some of the reasons why Aus will whitewash the Lions are laughable:

Cooper will be playing - The Guy is a shambles attitude wise and has played one test match in 2 years.

Young bucks playing well in super 15 - Folau, christian lealiifano, Mogg will be Australia's saviours. - There is no way a load of debutants will be in Deans' team and if they are they will get a rude awakeining when test rugby hits them.

Can't disagree mate, and I have seen a lot of super rugby this season.

Positives for Aus are...

- Brumbies are playing well

- There is an emergance of young talent becoming very effective in super rugby

- Cooper and Genia look excellent

- They don't have 156 injuries right now

- They will be at home

- They are always tough to beat

Negatives are...

- The young talent is still untested at test level, including a number of 10 cap players who havn't quite had the chance yet.

- Cooper is always a risk, recently slating his coach and squadmates

- Less injuries but far more serious ones plight them, Pocock is a massive loss.

- Beale is now in rehab and looks to have totally imploded

- Their back row, lock and centre options look weak (for them) not to mention the issues they'll have if Cooper doesn't return

In all I just can't see where all the optimism surround Aus has come from, not much has changed this season and if anything they look weaker. RD knows this is his job on the line, and is hardly a risk taker to begin with. I can understand Aussie fan trying to be optimistic about their team, theyve turned the corner etc (as the Welsh were last season) but for other SH posters to be so optimistic and outrageous baffles me, I get the hint of a SH bias rising to the surface, a will to beat the NH enemy.

Good luck all involved, maybe I'm just getting flight jitters, 20 hours is a long time

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Not by 3-0. It can happen but there's a psychological factor you have to bring into the equation. You can feel free to point out the weaknesses of Australia but mental toughness is not one of them.

No its not alright. Ive commented on their strengths before. I'm delighted that Australia's confidence is bubbling over. That plays right into the Lions hands IMO.

Folau will feature in the 23 and is a great impact player.... its growing every game he plays and when the Waratahs need a boost they seem to go to him, thats wide shoulders for a guy with hardly any union time.

Mogg, this kid has skills.... blink and you'll think you've seen the re-emergence of Ben Tune.

Cooper is a lot like Spencer, watch him for the reds and he completely runs the show. He makes players like Ioane look 10 times the player they are. Yes he had a disaster at the RWC but they still got 3rd place even then. He will be at home and I'd back him to peform more than I'd back him to crumble.

Whoever out of AUS' top 30 players Deans uses should be enough to win the series. I don't see the skills in the lions good enough to win 2 matches. I don't see Gatland using a back 3 of perhaps Halfpenny, Hogg and Maitland over a North, Halfpenny, Cuthbert trio for example.

GunsGerms wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Not by 3-0. It can happen but there's a psychological factor you have to bring into the equation. You can feel free to point out the weaknesses of Australia but mental toughness is not one of them.

No its not alright. Ive commented on their strengths before. I'm delighted that Australia's confidence is bubbling over. That plays right into the Lions hands IMO.

That and Georg Smiths popularity

Just thought I'd add, I think its amazing how we all form opinions of players personalities with little information. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors.... half our opinions on lions series are based on edit videos from behind the scenes clips...probably 5% of what actually goes on.

Guys like Guildford/Beale for example have bad reps but if they were your mates and they did what they have done we would classify them as legends. I've seen far far worse from guys I would trust looking after my boy for instance.

In SA for instance Andries Bekker has quite a bad reputation, that he's arrogant, workshy and loves himself. I met him in a bar a while back and he was a great chap, despite being with his wife and just wanting to chill out he was happy to have people disturb him, shake hands with strangers, have photos etc. Then again when I bumped into Bryan Habana on a different night out he was a total douche.. but I'm sure there are guys who have the complete opposite opinion of the two players etc.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Not by 3-0. It can happen but there's a psychological factor you have to bring into the equation. You can feel free to point out the weaknesses of Australia but mental toughness is not one of them.

No its not alright. Ive commented on their strengths before. I'm delighted that Australia's confidence is bubbling over. That plays right into the Lions hands IMO.

That and Georg Smiths popularity

George Smith was at fault for Drico's wonder try in '01. Maybe history will repeat itself.

fa0019 wrote:Just thought I'd add, I think its amazing how we all form opinions of players personalities with little information. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors.... half our opinions on lions series are based on edit videos from behind the scenes clips...probably 5% of what actually goes on.

Guys like Guildford/Beale for example have bad reps but if they were your mates and they did what they have done we would classify them as legends. I've seen far far worse from guys I would trust looking after my boy for instance.

In SA for instance Andries Bekker has quite a bad reputation, that he's arrogant, workshy and loves himself. I met him in a bar a while back and he was a great chap, despite being with his wife and just wanting to chill out he was happy to have people disturb him, shake hands with strangers, have photos etc. Then again when I bumped into Bryan Habana on a different night out he was a total douche.. but I'm sure there are guys who have the complete opposite opinion of the two players etc.

I felt a little sorry for Beale for the latest ban as he only had one beer didnt he? I know how hard it can be to just have 1. However, he knew the terms that he had to abide by. I know nothing of his character so cant comment what he is like but he had done some dumb things.

Cooper on the other hand tweets so much and doesnt hold back on tweets so his character is a little more transparent.

By the way Fa everyone can have a bad day and be a douche. You cant fault Habana's comitment and attitude to the sport. Thats all that matters to me.

fa0019 wrote:Just thought I'd add, I think its amazing how we all form opinions of players personalities with little information. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors.... half our opinions on lions series are based on edit videos from behind the scenes clips...probably 5% of what actually goes on.

Guys like Guildford/Beale for example have bad reps but if they were your mates and they did what they have done we would classify them as legends. I've seen far far worse from guys I would trust looking after my boy for instance.

In SA for instance Andries Bekker has quite a bad reputation, that he's arrogant, workshy and loves himself. I met him in a bar a while back and he was a great chap, despite being with his wife and just wanting to chill out he was happy to have people disturb him, shake hands with strangers, have photos etc. Then again when I bumped into Bryan Habana on a different night out he was a total douche.. but I'm sure there are guys who have the complete opposite opinion of the two players etc.

Are you actually criticising people for slating players who form long term poor reputations and then claiming so and so is lovely because you walked past him in a bar???

For the record I dislike very few players for personal reasons, Beale and Guildford aren't 2 of them, Cooper is along with a certain few I have had the mispleasure of reading about, bumping into etc...

Don't think it's SH bias. I really don't want to praise Australia! But the comments we will bend you backwards in the scrum and smash you in the set piece do tend to come out against Australia. England did destroy the scrum with Sheridan et al but England also destroyed NZ at the breakdown last year. These matches did happen but are they part of a wider pattern or is it selective bias?

By all means point out your areas of attack. But we can also point out the problems of the Lions principally their lack of time together. That is and always will be their biggest handicap. They have a good squad though and Gatland, like Deans, will have a simple game plan. He knows where he can gain an edge and he will choose players to get that. What is doubtful is can they adapt IF they fail to get an edge.

It's only natural there's bias to your respective teams. There does seem to me some coming out with bravado comments. It'll need a lot more than bravado though to get a result. The closer the matches come though, the more hot air gets blown about. That's all part of the banter. The real talking will be done on the field and nothing we say will change that.

I take the stance that the best coaching performance out of either Deans or Gatland over the next Month will decide the outcome of this Lions series.

Well generally speaking of records, Australia has a far, far superior record against all of the home nations - especially Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The question arises can the Lions become more than the sum of its parts? Previously they have shown this potential (before 1997) but to be frank it has not really gelled for them in the last 3 tours.

Sure, up until 2001 it has not been rosy for us but don't forget the Lions overall record is something like Played 111, 44 games won; 57 lost and 10 drawn. In other words - the Lions myth is crumbling as time goes on. I still love the special nature of the contest though and I wish them all the best when they arrive here.

Naturally, the Wallabies will be looking to continue that trend and we have more than enough very skillful players to do it. Of course we'll probably leave 7-12 points (per match!) on the field due to poor goal kicking... but I just have this feeling there will be lots of tries scored from the Wallabies against a slower and ageing Lions outfit and that we are more likely to prevail on current form.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I take the stance that the best coaching performance out of either Deans or Gatland over the next Month will decide the outcome of this Lions series.

Spon on.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don't think it's SH bias. I really don't want to praise Australia! But the comments we will bend you backwards in the scrum and smash you in the set piece do tend to come out against Australia. England did destroy the scrum with Sheridan et al but England also destroyed NZ at the breakdown last year. These matches did happen but are they part of a wider pattern or is it selective bias?

By all means point out your areas of attack. But we can also point out the problems of the Lions principally their lack of time together. That is and always will be their biggest handicap. They have a good squad though and Gatland, like Deans, will have a simple game plan. He knows where he can gain an edge and he will choose players to get that. What is doubtful is can they adapt IF they fail to get an edge.

It's only natural there's bias to your respective teams. There does seem to me some coming out with bravado comments. It'll need a lot more than bravado though to get a result. The closer the matches come though, the more hot air gets blown about. That's all part of the banter. The real talking will be done on the field and nothing we say will change that.

I don't think theres any hot air being blown though (not sure exactly who is mentioning the set peice, I'm not a fan of that OLD chestnut) and your right the lions will always be disadvantaged by what they are exactly, a group of strangers/enemies coming together with little time to prep before playing one of the best teams in the world.

But as I said if Gatland can recreate the lions unity, attitudes and performance of 09, they are capable of whitewashing this Aus side, and thats not hot air, because the SA team of 09 were far superior to this Aus team, infact they were superior to the better Aus team at the time.

As I said the lions really have it on them, they get their house in order they win, simple. It's not often I say that about rugby, especially the lions.

Linebreaker wrote:Well generally speaking of records, Australia has a far, far superior record against all of the home nations - especially Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The question arises can the Lions become more than the sum of its parts? Previously they have shown this potential (before 1997) but to be frank it has not really gelled for them in the last 3 tours.

Sure, up until 2001 it has not been rosy for us but don't forget the Lions overall record is something like Played 111, 44 games won; 57 lost and 10 drawn. In other words - the Lions myth is crumbling as time goes on. I still love the special nature of the contest though and I wish them all the best when they arrive here.

Naturally, the Wallabies will be looking to continue that trend and we have more than enough very skillful players to do it. Of course we'll probably leave 7-12 points (per match!) on the field due to poor goal kicking... but I just have this feeling there will be lots of tries scored from the Wallabies against a slower and ageing Lions outfit and that we are more likely to prevail on current form.

Likewise there is plently of evidence that the myth surrounding the Aussies is fading too with all of Samoa, Scotland and Ireland beating Australia in the SH recently and Wales and England coming very close.

If you want to talk about ancient records then surely the Lions superior record over the Aussies is more relevant.

Linebreaker wrote:Well generally speaking of records, Australia has a far, far superior record against all of the home nations - especially Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The question arises can the Lions become more than the sum of its parts? Previously they have shown this potential (before 1997) but to be frank it has not really gelled for them in the last 3 tours.

Sure, up until 2001 it has not been rosy for us but don't forget the Lions overall record is something like Played 111, 44 games won; 57 lost and 10 drawn. In other words - the Lions myth is crumbling as time goes on. I still love the special nature of the contest though and I wish them all the best when they arrive here.

Naturally, the Wallabies will be looking to continue that trend and we have more than enough very skillful players to do it. Of course we'll probably leave 7-12 points (per match!) on the field due to poor goal kicking... but I just have this feeling there will be lots of tries scored from the Wallabies against a slower and ageing Lions outfit and that we are more likely to prevail on current form.

I probably agree with a lot of this except the last part, this is the most athletic pack the lions and maybe the NH has ever seen, to compare players like Cole to Robinson, Healy to Alexander, Hibbard to Moore, Grey to Horwill, Falatau/Croft to Higginbotham I'd say the lions pack is far more athletic than Aus, centre pairings will look a bit ropy either side, but the back 3 will be a very close run thing. All options are attacking with little defencive nous.

I'm also not sure where the 'Aus will score tries' myth is coming from, Ive heard this from all angles and I don't see it, Gatland and RD will be weary of mistakes, and their lack of defence out wide, Gatland will surely play a containment game and the Welsh defencive system is very good, where will all these tries come from v the lions that didn't come v a depleted Wales side?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Just thought I'd add, I think its amazing how we all form opinions of players personalities with little information. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors.... half our opinions on lions series are based on edit videos from behind the scenes clips...probably 5% of what actually goes on.

Guys like Guildford/Beale for example have bad reps but if they were your mates and they did what they have done we would classify them as legends. I've seen far far worse from guys I would trust looking after my boy for instance.

In SA for instance Andries Bekker has quite a bad reputation, that he's arrogant, workshy and loves himself. I met him in a bar a while back and he was a great chap, despite being with his wife and just wanting to chill out he was happy to have people disturb him, shake hands with strangers, have photos etc. Then again when I bumped into Bryan Habana on a different night out he was a total douche.. but I'm sure there are guys who have the complete opposite opinion of the two players etc.

Are you actually criticising people for slating players who form long term poor reputations and then claiming so and so is lovely because you walked past him in a bar???

For the record I dislike very few players for personal reasons, Beale and Guildford aren't 2 of them, Cooper is along with a certain few I have had the mispleasure of reading about, bumping into etc...

not at all, I don't know if Bekker is a good chap or not, my one meeting of him can no way be a credible backing of him and the type of guy he is... hence why I said I'm sure their are guys who would have had the opposite opinion. Perosnally I don't care whether players are great chaps or tools... its what they bring on the rugby field I'm concerned with.

If I was to criticse him on the rugby field I think he takes on too much responsibilitiy in the lineout but otherwise he's a WP man through and through and we love him for that.

In terms of Coooper, he's loved by reds fans and his fellow players at least on the pitch. He's the leader of that team with Horwill... the heartbeat. He's not a thorn in their side, players look up to him you can see that everytime he walks on the field... when he was injured he has even miked up to coach the team on plays etc. Most guys when injured don't show that sort of commitment to his cause.

Off the pitch that may be a different matter but that doesn't mean when on Reds and AUS time he's a good professional.

Australia can lose an isolated match. Show me the times they have lost 3 -0 in a series other than against the ABs. I'm too lazy to look it up myself.

It's not hot air to say the Lions can win 3-0. Of course they can. It's not hot air to say they won't lose 3-0. I personally think the Lions best chance of winning is the second test and then the decider comes down to who executes the best performance. My hot air comments are directed at we will smash the Aussies up front found in other threads. Wales had the right game plan but not the right execution last year. It's the small things that end up counting for a lot. Can the Lions do the little things well because that's what it'll come down to. There will be no clear superiority anywhere. The coaches know the strengths of the other and will look to shore up their weaknesses as well as try to force their own strengths. That's what makes these games compelling. Usually they're very even handed affairs and this series I see no different.

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Well generally speaking of records, Australia has a far, far superior record against all of the home nations - especially Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The question arises can the Lions become more than the sum of its parts? Previously they have shown this potential (before 1997) but to be frank it has not really gelled for them in the last 3 tours.

Sure, up until 2001 it has not been rosy for us but don't forget the Lions overall record is something like Played 111, 44 games won; 57 lost and 10 drawn. In other words - the Lions myth is crumbling as time goes on. I still love the special nature of the contest though and I wish them all the best when they arrive here.

Naturally, the Wallabies will be looking to continue that trend and we have more than enough very skillful players to do it. Of course we'll probably leave 7-12 points (per match!) on the field due to poor goal kicking... but I just have this feeling there will be lots of tries scored from the Wallabies against a slower and ageing Lions outfit and that we are more likely to prevail on current form.

Likewise there is plently of evidence that the myth surrounding the Aussies is fading too with all of Samoa, Scotland and Ireland beating Australia in the SH recently and Wales and England coming very close.

If you want to talk about ancient records then surely the Lions superior record over the Aussies is more relevant.

GunsGerms wrote:I was responding to the comment that the Lions rarely win series. The records show they do v Aus.

You keep falling into your own trap, GG.

It was you who brought up the topic of records (which is completely untrue, btw, in the modern era as everyone knows... except you).
I was talking about the historic trend against the individual home nations. Do you really want to revisit Ireland's shocking record against Australia again? I thought we sorted that out a few weeks ago. Keep trying - but maybe it would be better if you said less about recent Lions winning series. How embarrassing! Can't believe you are still banging on like that foolish, armless and legless knight on Life of Brian... still arguing and insisting he wants to go on with it.

Blues, a little bit like you too on these threads of late - still trying to justify Wales' dismal record against Australia - but perhaps you also have a short memory? Fair enough if you want to believe your own myths but let's be a little more objective please. You are clutching at straws but full of hope. Nothing wrong with that but I tend to disagree with most of what you are saying.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Australia can lose an isolated match. Show me the times they have lost 3 -0 in a series other than against the ABs. I'm too lazy to look it up myself.

It's not hot air to say the Lions can win 3-0. Of course they can. It's not hot air to say they won't lose 3-0. I personally think the Lions best chance of winning is the second test and then the decider comes down to who executes the best performance. My hot air comments are directed at we will smash the Aussies up front found in other threads. Wales had the right game plan but not the right execution last year. It's the small things that end up counting for a lot. Can the Lions do the little things well because that's what it'll come down to. There will be no clear superiority anywhere. The coaches know the strengths of the other and will look to shore up their weaknesses as well as try to force their own strengths. That's what makes these games compelling. Usually they're very even handed affairs and this series I see no different.

I agree, and I never bought into the Aus being weak up front, they just have different priorities, the scrum does get beat now and then, but for the tries the tight 5 score and get around the park they get away with it.

I disagree on the 2nd test though, Aus won't have played a game until test 1, whereas the lions test players will have at least 3 under their belts, and I think the lions need to go out there and win game 1, then game 2 is where the Aus mindset might get them out of trouble, if so theres a decider if not I see the lions winning the series 3-0

Linebreaker wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Well generally speaking of records, Australia has a far, far superior record against all of the home nations - especially Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The question arises can the Lions become more than the sum of its parts? Previously they have shown this potential (before 1997) but to be frank it has not really gelled for them in the last 3 tours.

Sure, up until 2001 it has not been rosy for us but don't forget the Lions overall record is something like Played 111, 44 games won; 57 lost and 10 drawn. In other words - the Lions myth is crumbling as time goes on. I still love the special nature of the contest though and I wish them all the best when they arrive here.

Naturally, the Wallabies will be looking to continue that trend and we have more than enough very skillful players to do it. Of course we'll probably leave 7-12 points (per match!) on the field due to poor goal kicking... but I just have this feeling there will be lots of tries scored from the Wallabies against a slower and ageing Lions outfit and that we are more likely to prevail on current form.

Likewise there is plently of evidence that the myth surrounding the Aussies is fading too with all of Samoa, Scotland and Ireland beating Australia in the SH recently and Wales and England coming very close.

If you want to talk about ancient records then surely the Lions superior record over the Aussies is more relevant.

GunsGerms wrote:I was responding to the comment that the Lions rarely win series. The records show they do v Aus.

You keep falling into your own trap, GG.

Yawn, read the thread properly Threadbreaker.