Oz rugby...For once I agree with Rattue...well

First topic message reminder :

For much of the first four paragraphs...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-sport-analysis/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502180&objectid=10883137

The remaining dribble about NZ I don't believe is anywhere near the average Kiwi's thinking.

For one I'm excited about this years AB's, the way way overdue emergence of Auckland as a true rugby force, even though there is still a long way to go.

But back to the title.

Based on this years sxv matches alone, Oz have truly got some momentum going after last years horrors. The Lions have toured one year too late and are going to cop what could be the start of another strong Ozzie spell, a la the early and late 90's. Its no coincidence the World cup in xv is in the NH- the venue of Oz's two wins. Robbie Deans finally has some real toys to play with now there's a few back in the cot and I don't think he's going to waste this opportunity.

In terms of improvement alone, put some long term money on Oz in xv and a quid or two on a 3-0 sweep vs the Lions.

I have picked 2-1 all along but am slowly tending towards the sweep.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Your 15 and tactics?

What I would think is a good squad

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Alexander
4. Horwill
5. Simmons
6. Mowen
7. Hooper
8. Higginbotham

You could interchange Higginbotham and Mowen as they both have played at 6 and 8 this season.

9 Genia
10. Barnes (This is if Cooper is not going to be there)
11. Ioane
12. Lealiifano
13. AAC
14. Folau
15. O'Connor

Tactics, Barnes and Cooper tactical kicking is good, they can play the territory game as well as anyone, quick ruck ball (Don't get involved in attritional warfare at the break downs) Mutlphases, middle, middle, side to side.

Keep line out throws to the front as it is safer ball, use the maul sparingly, first phase attacking lines bringing Folau, O'Connor and Ioane on the inside ball from the line outs or scrums.

your team and what Meyer chooses is probably a little different. That is the best the squad can put out bar Oosthuizen in at loosehead.

Meyer is very conservative. He likes Beast, Spies, Hougaard, De Villiers and Kirchner.

They will play.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I would think AUS would beat SA at the moment. Look at a potential match up with injuries included.

SA

Beast, Strauss, Du Plessis, Etzebeth, Kruger, Alberts, Coetzee, Spies, Hougaard, Steyn, Habana, De Villiers, De Jongh, Pietersen, Kirchner.

AUS

Robinson, Sharpe, Alexander, Timani, Horwill, Higginbottom, Hooper, Mowan, Genia, Barnes, Ioane, O'Connor, Ashely-Cooper, Tomane, Mogg.

From that, well the halfbacks, centres and 3/4 are superior.

The backrows look a decent contest but crucially SA's front five is nothing special and AUS' is of a decent standard. They won't get dominated. That means AUS backrow won't be on the back foot and overall they are better players on the floor then Alberts, Coetzee and Spies.

AUS would win, certainly at home and probably away too.

No chance, although that wouldn't be my SA team exactly.

Yeah, that wouldn't be my SA team either.

1. Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis (Sadly no replacement for him yet)
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Pieter Stef du Toit
6. Marcel Coetzee
7. Lappies Labuschagne (Would like to see Arno Botha there)
8 Pierre SPies
9. Piet v Zyl
10. Lambie
11. Habana
12. Jean de Villiers (We all know he will be there)
13. Jan Serfontein
14. JP Pietersen
15 Willie le Roux.

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Your 15 and tactics?

What I would think is a good squad

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Alexander
4. Horwill
5. Simmons
6. Mowen
7. Hooper
8. Higginbotham

You could interchange Higginbotham and Mowen as they both have played at 6 and 8 this season.

9 Genia
10. Barnes (This is if Cooper is not going to be there)
11. Ioane
12. Lealiifano
13. AAC
14. Folau
15. O'Connor

Tactics, Barnes and Cooper tactical kicking is good, they can play the territory game as well as anyone, quick ruck ball (Don't get involved in attritional warfare at the break downs) Mutlphases, middle, middle, side to side.

Keep line out throws to the front as it is safer ball, use the maul sparingly, first phase attacking lines bringing Folau, O'Connor and Ioane on the inside ball from the line outs or scrums.

We differ on a few selections, but we pretty much agree on tactics, keep away from the arm wrestle, move ball quick and sparingly, use inside runners a lot, and look for parity in the set peice, kick dead and contain in the right areas. But don't you think this is underog tactics? The fact my tactics would depend on avoiding the lions strengths more than my own highlights I would be the underdog.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Your 15 and tactics?

What I would think is a good squad

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Alexander
4. Horwill
5. Simmons
6. Mowen
7. Hooper
8. Higginbotham

You could interchange Higginbotham and Mowen as they both have played at 6 and 8 this season.

9 Genia
10. Barnes (This is if Cooper is not going to be there)
11. Ioane
12. Lealiifano
13. AAC
14. Folau
15. O'Connor

Tactics, Barnes and Cooper tactical kicking is good, they can play the territory game as well as anyone, quick ruck ball (Don't get involved in attritional warfare at the break downs) Mutlphases, middle, middle, side to side.

Keep line out throws to the front as it is safer ball, use the maul sparingly, first phase attacking lines bringing Folau, O'Connor and Ioane on the inside ball from the line outs or scrums.

We differ on a few selections, but we pretty much agree on tactics, keep away from the arm wrestle, move ball quick and sparingly, use inside runners a lot, and look for parity in the set peice, kick dead and contain in the right areas. But don't you think this is underog tactics? The fact my tactics would depend on avoiding the lions strengths more than my own highlights I would be the underdog.

Underdog, No.

Australia has been playing a similar type of game for yonks, they know when to be confrontational and when not to.

Cooper is not going to start.. he will be lucky if he gets into the 23. His defence is not good enough. Deans knows the Lions will go physical.... Roberts, Tuilagi, North etc will be charging down his channel.

I've been saying that he needs to play for a while but this weekend's matches made me change my mind. Barnes was very good, O'Connor will go in at either 10 or 12 and Cooper is just a liability... he gifted the Cheetahs points on the weekend. Deans won't want that.

fa0019 wrote:Cooper is not going to start.. he will be lucky if he gets into the 23. His defence is not good enough. Deans knows the Lions will go physical.... Roberts, Tuilagi, North etc will be charging down his channel.

I've been saying that he needs to play for a while but this weekend's matches made me change my mind. Barnes was very good, O'Connor will go in at either 10 or 12 and Cooper is just a liability... he gifted the Cheetahs points on the weekend. Deans won't want that.

I agree though what Cooper can do outweighs what he can't IMHO, also if you want to see defencive weakness go and look at the recent JOC lowlight real, seeing Cooper and JOC at 10/12 would make good watching from a lions POV defencively (I don't want to think of both players at full tilt, top form ball in hand!)

I like your team BB but do you really think Meyer would choose those players over his favourites? Le Roux isn't even in his squad nor is van Zyl?

That side would compete vs. AUS.... Meyers is just a damage limitation team though and will be as dangerous as the Stormers have been all season.... toothless.

But bilt I think your right we have done Aus to death now, I am happy to atsrt debating lions selection if you like

I can only hope FA, the problem we have is our half backs are poor quality at the moment, each and everyone of them has a fault or two, Hougaardt can't kick, Duvenhage is average, Groom inexperienced, Pretorius poor pass, it goes on and on.

The only one that has been consistent is van Zyl when he got his opportunities.

Meyer said he learnt a few things last year, lets hope.

Hougaard is Bergamasco's slightly better twin brother.

Duvenhage is very average, Pretorius is Meyer's god son (only explanation).

van Zyl.... must have upset Meyer in the past... no other explanation. Perhaps he turned down an offer from the Bulls in the past?

thebluesmancometh wrote:But bilt I think your right we have done Aus to death now, I am happy to atsrt debating lions selection if you like

Go for it.

I'll start with the backline.

I know everyone believes Philips will be the half back, I just think Sexton is a dead certainty and would consider Murray.

But lets go with this for now.

1. Cian Healy (A must in my opinion if not for his mobility)
2. I don't know because I wanted Best there.
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. O' Connell
6. SOB
7. Warburton (He will be ther,e but I think it is a mistake)
8. Faletau (Would have chosen Robshaw myself)
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Tuilangi
13. O'Driscoll (if he is up to it, otherwise Roberts)
14. Bowe
15. Kearney (is he in the squad, can't remember, otherwise Halfpound)

fa0019 wrote:Cooper is not going to start.. he will be lucky if he gets into the 23. His defence is not good enough. Deans knows the Lions will go physical.... Roberts, Tuilagi, North etc will be charging down his channel.

I've been saying that he needs to play for a while but this weekend's matches made me change my mind. Barnes was very good, O'Connor will go in at either 10 or 12 and Cooper is just a liability... he gifted the Cheetahs points on the weekend. Deans won't want that.

Also worth bearing in mind that if the combo is Cooper-Lealiifano then the Lions will target that.

Lealiifano is excellent in attack but would give away a stone and half to Roberts or JD2.

fa0019 wrote:Hougaard is Bergamasco's slightly better twin brother.

Duvenhage is very average, Pretorius is Meyer's god son (only explanation).

van Zyl.... must have upset Meyer in the past... no other explanation. Perhaps he turned down an offer from the Bulls in the past?

must be

I just hope to hell Kirchner is not selected.

Are you guys in the right thread?

George Carlin wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Cooper is not going to start.. he will be lucky if he gets into the 23. His defence is not good enough. Deans knows the Lions will go physical.... Roberts, Tuilagi, North etc will be charging down his channel.

I've been saying that he needs to play for a while but this weekend's matches made me change my mind. Barnes was very good, O'Connor will go in at either 10 or 12 and Cooper is just a liability... he gifted the Cheetahs points on the weekend. Deans won't want that.

Also worth bearing in mind that if the combo is Cooper-Lealiifano then the Lions will target that.

Lealiifano is excellent in attack but would give away a stone and half to Roberts or JD2.

Not exactly likely though... Lealiifano has never been capped and Cooper isn't even in the 25 players Deans drew up.

One thing Deans isn't and thats a risk taker. He doesn't gamble.

Linebreaker wrote:Are you guys in the right thread?

Don't know.

..plus Cooper has only played one or two test matches in the last couple of years. He will need to play out of his skin for the Rebs v the Lions to get anywhere near the Australia team.

Linebreaker wrote:Are you guys in the right thread?

Someone said AUS would lose to SA at the moment and we were discussing the possible match ups. Don't worry, Interest in AUS rugby is back on again... well until Scotland repeat our 2010 bannockburn re-enactment on the bokke in our match up later in the year.

Biltong wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Are you guys in the right thread?

Don't know.

Where's Henson? And why does this thread have no mention of Jonny Wilkinson?

George Carlin wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Are you guys in the right thread?

Don't know.

Where's Henson? And why does this thread have no mention of Jonny Wilkinson?

Patience my dear Watson, we're getting to them.

I know you joke but I fear Wilko will not only go but be involved in a test

There was a bit of a media campaign against Cooper for the first time here today. Or more like a few ex-players jumping to RD's defence in omitting QC. (could it be a ploy to fire him up in the next few weeks though?)

I'm not convinced JOC should be at 10. Barnes has a better kicking game (the RL style plus his reading of the game situation is more astute, imo). Some have even said JOC might miss out altogether (if injury not healed)... and Cummins will be in the run on side.

Linebreaker wrote:There was a bit of a media campaign against Cooper for the first time here today. Or more like a few ex-players jumping to RD's defence in omitting QC. (could it be a ploy to fire him up in the next few weeks though?)

I'm not convinced JOC should be at 10. Barnes has a better kicking game (the RL style plus his reading of the game situation is more astute, imo). Some have even said JOC might miss out altogether (if injury not healed)... and Cummins will be in the run on side.

I agree with all of that LB.

fa0019 wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Are you guys in the right thread?

Someone said AUS would lose to SA at the moment and we were discussing the possible match ups. Don't worry, Interest in AUS rugby is back on again... well until Scotland repeat our 2010 bannockburn re-enactment on the bokke in our match up later in the year.

Oh sorry mate.
Yeah... I read that bit. I thought it might have been the first steps to SA World Dominance manifesting itself on here.

Linebreaker wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Are you guys in the right thread?

Someone said AUS would lose to SA at the moment and we were discussing the possible match ups. Don't worry, Interest in AUS rugby is back on again... well until Scotland repeat our 2010 bannockburn re-enactment on the bokke in our match up later in the year.

Oh sorry mate.
Yeah... I read that bit. I thought it might have been the first steps to SA World Dominance manifesting itself on here.

Like I said on another thread, SA will never dominate world rugby.

Our administrators are in it for themselves and don't have the inclination to do what is best for SA rugby, our coaches are to conservative, we have no continuity planned from one coach to the next, no collective mindset and politics.

Biltong wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Are you guys in the right thread?

Someone said AUS would lose to SA at the moment and we were discussing the possible match ups. Don't worry, Interest in AUS rugby is back on again... well until Scotland repeat our 2010 bannockburn re-enactment on the bokke in our match up later in the year.

Oh sorry mate.
Yeah... I read that bit. I thought it might have been the first steps to SA World Dominance manifesting itself on here.

Like I said on another thread, SA Wales will never dominate world rugby.

Our administrators are in it for themselves and don't have the inclination to do what is best for SA rugby, our coaches are to conservative, we have no continuity planned from one coach to the next, no collective mindset and politics.

Agree 100%

I also read that too, mate.

So no chance of a change in Admin style or introducing a creative coach? Surely there are some good ones out there?

Linebreaker wrote:I also read that too, mate.

So no chance of a change in Admin style or introducing a creative coach? Surely there are some good ones out there?

No chance, you first have to get rid of the SA mentality of every man for himself, then you have to remove entitlement out of the picture.

You won't get rid of the current crop of administrators because they spend most of their time ensuring new blood doesn't get a hold to have any vote oust them.

Politics in this country isn't going to let go of sport any time soon, hence there will be no collective focus to put the Boks first.

Forget about having coaches that aren't conservative, their jobs are on the line every test, irrespective of whether they have a contract in place, they know if they win 60% of their games they are safe.

So they won't go for gold, as they know they have one shot at coaching SA. Never again.

Yes there are great coaches in SA, Mallet and White are top of that list, and we all know what happened to them.

Well, I will travel to Aus for the series more in hope than expectation.

The Lions have some big guys in the squad, but Aus have had the most cohesive defence of any team in the last 12 years imo. Size won't bother them; they make their tackles.

You have to really work to create space against Aus. Gatland knows this hence most people reckon the Lions' tactics will be to keep it tight and force penalties. I think that's what we will see.

Both Aus and NZ are very adept at exploiting turnover ball, so I would also expect that to come into Gatland's thinking when picking his 1st XV and bench.

I want a pretty mobile back row of Croft, Tipuric and Heaslip, but with Warburton as captain that's not going to happen.

Locks - O'Connell and whoever fits the game plan.

Front row - Healy, Hartley (yes, really) and Cole. Mobility and scavenging from those three.

9 - Youngs for his pace, though I reckon Phillips will start.
10 - Sexton
11 - Cuthbert
12 - O'Driscoll (I would move him inside for his experience and distribution).
13 - Tuilagi
14 - Maitland
15 - Halfpenny (2nd kicking option) but equally happy with Kearney, who is bang on form.

The highlanders feature a lot of encumbent all blacks who are clearly out of form or badly coached, so Rattue may have a point on NZ rugby. I think going into 2015 SA and England will be favourites and Wales, Australia and France will be nipping at their heels.

GloriousEmpire wrote:The highlanders feature a lot of encumbent all blacks who are clearly out of form or badly coached, so Rattue may have a point on NZ rugby. I think going into 2015 SA and England will be favourites and Wales, Australia and France will be nipping at their heels.

well good luck to that...nz as 6th faves I mean...a brand new 'new' for rugby...well said and thought out...