How will O'Gara be remembered?

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I thought he was excellent and very similar to Stephen Jones. I feel sorry for ROG as most people will remember his monumental phukkupp in South Africa more than anything else. A shame, but that's sport.

fa0019 wrote: He's easily the best Irish 10 in 30 years (my knowledge deminishes at this point for age purposes).

I think Ollie Campbell or maybe even Tony Ward might have something to say about that.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote: He's easily the best Irish 10 in 30 years (my knowledge deminishes at this point for age purposes).

I think Ollie Campbell or maybe even Tony Ward might have something to say about that.

When did those guys last play test rugby... wasn't it about 30 years ago???

Spencer doesn't belong in that top tier fa. Larkham most certainly does. That's very hallowed company and there's quite a gap between other likely players.

Castagniede was just as mercurial as Spencer and for my mind more reliable. Bluesman will no doubt like to add Henson to that list of 'talented' players though for me his position was 12 not 10. An inverse Carter in that respect as though they can play both positions they were only really comfortable at test level at one position. I don't take into account club rugby as test rugby is the pinnacle of rugby. Have no problem if you like club rugby over test rugby. Many prefer to remember ROG as a Munster player. I get that too. But for me greatness can only be given to test players who consistently perform and greatness should be limited to a very select few. Even Merths for me is not a great even though he will always be a rugby god for me. If Irish fans want to worship false idols as well then all power to them. Faith is subjective.

I suppose it was up until the mid 80s though we really didnt have anyone decent at all between then.

Larkham and AUS were fortunate to have guys around him that could kick place goals like Eales and Burke. Did Spencer ever have that luxury?

MacDonald aside who was a replacement for Umaga I can't think of a regular one. Jeff Wilson wasn't too bad to mind.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote: He's easily the best Irish 10 in 30 years (my knowledge deminishes at this point for age purposes).

I think Ollie Campbell or maybe even Tony Ward might have something to say about that.

I was just about to say that Ollie Campbell was in the top 5 in the world at his peak in the 80s. At 10 and 12, arguably.

Jackie Kyle still peerless though.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Spencer doesn't belong in that top tier fa. Larkham most certainly does. That's very hallowed company and there's quite a gap between other likely players.

Castagniede was just as mercurial as Spencer and for my mind more reliable. Bluesman will no doubt like to add Henson to that list of 'talented' players though for me his position was 12 not 10. An inverse Carter in that respect as though they can play both positions they were only really comfortable at test level at one position. I don't take into account club rugby as test rugby is the pinnacle of rugby. Have no problem if you like club rugby over test rugby. Many prefer to remember ROG as a Munster player. I get that too. But for me greatness can only be given to test players who consistently perform and greatness should be limited to a very select few. Even Merths for me is not a great even though he will always be a rugby god for me. If Irish fans want to worship false idols as well then all power to them. Faith is subjective.

So basically, what you are saying is that Carter is the benchmark and everyone falls short of him.

I can understand why you might think that way (bearing in mind what has happened when he is injured).

People rate Jonny because he is a thoroughly nice guy so is bullet proof when it comes to criticism (a bit like BOD). Only players like ROG gets compilations of their mistakes etc.

One thing about ROG in that he was never afraid to try stuff - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If you ask ROG about the Lions Tour, he will still tell you he attempted to do the right thing - a draw was useless (and he is right - the Saffers would have come gunning for the Lions in the last Test and with most of the Lions injured, they'd have been blown away).

Carter, Wilkinson and Larkham are modern greats for me. Read back on my posts you Munster misery guts.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Carter, Wilkinson and Larkham are modern greats for me. Read back on my posts you Munster misery guts.

Well, I don't get why you would rate Wilkinson over O'Gara if that is the case who always seems to me to be more mechanical than anything else (in that you know he has practised every possible scenario about a million times so that he is perfect - except at the world cup of course when his kicking went to pot ) and there was some dodgy stuff going on by the England management with Wilko escaping all tarnish - absolutely bullet proof.

This is what Brian O'Driscoll said about ROG on twitter:

Brian O'Driscoll ‏@BrianODriscoll : What a phenomenal career my bud ROG has had this last 15 odd years. Brilliant rugby brain, incredible competitor. Will badly miss playing with him & less so against. Chirpy as u like but backed it up every time. Munster & Ireland's loss is Racing's gain. Go well.

Great quote from BOD. I'm sad to see so many of us having to defend the guy. Good luck to him in his next challenge helping to turn Sexton into a legend!

What else is BOD go to say on twitter: Jayzus, he hung around longer than the smell in my bog this morning after his leaving party (which that little shoite wasn't invited to).

I hardly think a tweet from your captain is going to get you into the Rugby Hall of Fame. I can see the attraction of O'Gara. He's been all those things BOD mentioned. I know how much you rate the guy Sin é. I feel the same way about Andrew Merthens. I know bromance when I see it. But excuse me if I think Rogan Josh wasn't as spicy and delicious as you would have me believe. An Irish great just as Merths was a Kiwi great. Lot more colourful characters than Johhny and Dan as well but it's lonely at the top for a reason. Not everybody can fit!

The Irish and Munster lads will tell you I'm one of his biggest critics, for me the last 2 seasons have been painful bar some stellar games (Northampton away, two HC knockout games this year). His all round game has deteriorated greatly in the last year or so, he is still accurate with the boot but has ha tremendous struggles running the Munster backline, they have been inept at large periods (they scored something like 3/4 tries with him at 10 in the HC, one was from an intercept and I think another came for a scrum move.

I feel that he was quite limited, this isn't a bad thing, just he didn't have the all round game that you would hope to have, (most 10s don't Carter and maybe Larkham, Wilkinson never was in my opinion). He benefitted from havin a terrific pack, which catered to his skillset, and we played a game to maximise his abilities and not his deficiencies. He worked his ass of to get better at his game, an you coul see it. He was never considered a running outhalf but in his Ireland's purple patch, he did score a fair few tries, offering something in that department. I said he can't run a backline now, but back in the day he was relatively good at it, Ireland's potency in attack against European teams in particular was well noted an he did have a strong hand in it.

So basically ROG was incredibly good at what he did but the talents of those around him and the style we played were a big hand in his success. He will rightfully go own as a Munster and Irish legend, for what he has achieved and for his role in getting us this far.

As for his greatest days in Green and red.

Best game for Ireland, probably South Africa in 2004: Masterful kicking and directing the pack around the field, capped off with a superb, and cheeky try that was only something he would do.

Best game for Munster: You could probably pick around 10 here and not really be wrong, close call between Munster Leicester 2003 QF and that Leinster semi, Second one plumps it because, of that try an handoff. Very nice jumping into the crowd too. I was in that stand and the place went mental!

How will ROG be remembered..hmm

By all Munster fans = well
By most Ireland fans = well
By most of the mental midgets on here = no one outside your sad lonely lives will care

Will ROG care? Will he f#£k

Oh jebus i forgot about Thomond...the wendyball fan of Munster...

It's really a shock someone liking more than one sport now, lifting The Ban really estroye Ireland.

I appreciate what you see in Merthens, what I don't see is what more you see in Wilkinson actually that elevates him greater than ROG. Wilko played risk free rugby and was very conservative. I still rate, probably more for being so a nice bloke than anything else.

All BOD had to say was 'a great career, a pleasure to play with, great loss to rugby etc. etc.' It will be interesting to see if he refers to other retiring players for their a) brilliant rugby brain, b) competitive nature and c) for being a bit gabby but always backing his words with deeds.

What about Wilko's form at the last world cup then? We have been regaled with how he won the 2003 world cup and got england to the final in '07 - what happened to him in 2011?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Okay...that's okay... fire away. I realise many here like looking through bedroom windows as much as they like talking rugby tactics.

Ok let me ask, do you think Lance Armstrong legacy has been tarnished by his off bike antics? Do you beleive Henson was one of the best players in the world despite his off field attitude, and how much of a fan of Danny Cipriani, and Ashley Cole are you?

I would go as far to say many players boost their careera with professionalism behind the scenes, Wilkinson, and Warburton are 2 that jump out! To not consider attitudes and private life antics is niaive, and Kurtley Beale maybe is paying a price of certain peoples niaivity now don't you think?

Lance Armstrong's off the bike antics? You mean taking drugs which enhance his performance? I suppose that does alters our perception of him?

As for O'Gara's personal life, the only thing that is definitely true is that he has lost a shedload of money through ba property eals. For a man who lived in Ireland, you seem to have failed to realise that 90% of what we say regarding sportstars off the field is complete horseshit.

Taking rugs is performance enhancing?! Next time I have a Turkish delight I'll think twice.

Mate, Johnny's star had faded by 2005 when he passed the baton to Carter and he's held it ever since. If JW's judged unfairly by winning the game in 2003 because O'Gara never got that opportunity or had a pack the equal of the white orcs on steroids then that's just how the cookie crumbles. Both ROG and Wilkinson had weaknesses as well as Larkham. I never felt fear when facing ROG the way I did with Wilkinson and Larkham. That has a lot to do with the teams they played for of course but it also had to do with the individual brilliance they had at their disposal.

O'Gara is one of the great flyhalves for me of the modern era. Not just the greatest. You can feel different but you're not going to change my opinion.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
O'Gara is one of the great flyhalves for me of the modern era. Not just the greatest. You can feel different but you're not going to change my opinion.

Who was claiming he was the greatest?

Yes quite right. I should have said he is not in my top three. Not at the tip of the pyramid. But you did well to have him so long. Soon to retire is someone who was at the top of the pyramid. And I don't mean POC...

Sin é wrote:If you ask ROG about the Lions Tour, he will still tell you he attempted to do the right thing - a draw was useless

I agree with Sin é for once! I do not understand this obsession with ROG's actions with the Lions. ROG went for the win- a poorly executed attempt, but an attempt nonetheless. Anyone who says that he should have kicked the ball out of play for a draw, has simply a loser mentality. A draw in rugby generally is pointless, 1 game down in a three match series, a draw is as good as a loss. Or would people be patting themselves on the backs for (at best) one won, one drawn game in the Lions? I would regard that as a lost series.

ROG, I will remember you most for the Grand Slam match, home to Mayo from London for the weekend, on the couch with my wee Mauritian girlfriend at the time, who couldn't stop laughing at me bawling my eyes out for the last 5 minutes of that match... Cheers ROG...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yes quite right. I should have said he is not in my top three. Not at the tip of the pyramid. But you did well to have him so long. Soon to retire is someone who was at the top of the pyramid. And I don't mean POC...

Paddy Wallace?

Close rodders! He is Irish.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Taking rugs is performance enhancing?! Next time I have a Turkish delight I'll think twice.

Mate, Johnny's star had faded by 2005 when he passed the baton to Carter and he's held it ever since. If JW's judged unfairly by winning the game in 2003 because O'Gara never got that opportunity or had a pack the equal of the white orcs on steroids then that's just how the cookie crumbles. Both ROG and Wilkinson had weaknesses as well as Larkham. I never felt fear when facing ROG the way I did with Wilkinson and Larkham. That has a lot to do with the teams they played for of course but it also had to do with the individual brilliance they had at their disposal.

O'Gara is one of the great flyhalves for me of the modern era. Not just the greatest. You can feel different but you're not going to change my opinion.

If you want to judge JW greatness don't look at the RWC03 and their all-star side but rather the RWC07.... England were probably at best the 6th best side there... probably 7th and JW was hardly fit come the beginning of the tournament.

England were nilled by SA in the pool stages who piled on 36 points of their own when he was injured.. and it could have been far far worse. The recovery is probably the greatest recovery in rugby world cup history (albeit we're only 7 tournaments in)... went on to beat AUS and FRA (his finest performance for me) and then took SA to a whisker of retaining the trophy.
He wasn't the sole reason in the difference but he was the major factor in their turnaround. Very few players could have had that impact.

As a legend.

2 HC's and a grand slam. Jeysus, I'll never ever forget that grand slam game for as long as I live.

Ronan will be remembered as a legend. He's an athletic, good looking chap with a great voice and recently he has showed his value by carving out a solo career without the rest of the band. That is a sign of true quality

RubyGuby wrote:Ronan will be remembered as a legend. He's an athletic, good looking chap with a great voice and recently he has showed his value by carving out a solo career without the rest of the band. That is a sign of true quality

But his career has been a bit of a rollercoaster recently.

dummy_half wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Ronan will be remembered as a legend. He's an athletic, good looking chap with a great voice and recently he has showed his value by carving out a solo career without the rest of the band. That is a sign of true quality

But his career has been a bit of a rollercoaster recently.

Ronan's career has always been a bit of a roller coaster; it comes with the territory if I'm honest; he's just had to ride it and I think he's done ok. He's been a bit head strong on times when he could have said Nothing at All but that's just his personality - I'm sure he'll have a good retirement Loving each day as if its the last and he deserves it to be fair.

He still shouldn't have punted that ball in the air for the Lions though in the last minute

As far as Irish fly-halfs over the last 30 years go, some of them before ROG had to play outside Michael Bradley - I defy anyone to look good under those circumstances.

BlueNote wrote:As far as Irish fly-halfs over the last 30 years go, some of them before ROG had to play outside Michael Bradley - I defy anyone to look good under those circumstances.

A bit harsh - you'd be counting in minutes how long it took to get the ball out of rucks and mauls so it wasn't just his fault!

Irish legend. Served his country and Province very well. Holds all the records. He did a lot more than just help his team win that famous Grand Slam in 2009.

A lot of put-the-boot-in voting going on here. Lovely bunch of Lions Musketeer fans we have here.

I think this should become the norm for how we say bye to players of long standing in the game. Do a voting trip on it instead.

Four options for all of them. Good, not so good, bad, ridiculous. Great idea. Classy.

littlejohn wrote:

BlueNote wrote:As far as Irish fly-halfs over the last 30 years go, some of them before ROG had to play outside Michael Bradley - I defy anyone to look good under those circumstances.

A bit harsh - you'd be counting in minutes how long it took to get the ball out of rucks and mauls so it wasn't just his fault!

As far as i remember when Bradley played and was captain, we used to win more than we lost..

He will be remembered as one of the best rugby players that Ireland has ever produced.

If BOD were not around he would be talked of as the best Irish rugby player of his generation.

Intotouch wrote:He will be remembered as one of the best rugby players that Ireland has ever produced.

If BOD were not around he would probably be remembered as being pretty average.

Just corrected that for you

His record disputes the conclusion.

SecretFly wrote:His record alongside BOD disputes the conclusion.

There you go, corrected that for you as well

BOD doesn't play for Munster.

RubyGuby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His record alongside BOD disputes the conclusion.

There you go, corrcted that for you as well

Correction again: His record disputes the conclusion. The initial hypothesis assumed DOD didn't exist Plus, DOD isn't a fly half.

Can't someone just entertain me for a while or do i have to say the truth - OGara's a top class act, he can control a game, has vision, great boot, tenacity and he's an all round good footballer and distributor. Has been ice cool on occasion with the boot and the fact that lots of opposing fans have a dislike for him is just testament to the quality he has on the field. Hopefully he will be remembered for these qualities

I'm a Munster man myself Stag and I couldn't let the truth get in the way in the end. Back to Sneem for now

RubyGuby wrote:Can't someone just entertain me for a while or do i have to say the truth - OGara's a top class act, he can control a game, has vision, great boot, tenacity and he's an all round good footballer and distributor. Has been ice cool on occasion with the boot and the fact that lots of opposing fans have a dislike for him is just testament to the quality he has on the field. Hopefully he will be remembered for these qualities

I'm a Munster man myself Stag and I couldn't let the truth get in the way in the end. Back to Sneem for now

The truth is vastly over rated Ruby

Aint no fecking pleasing some people - Funny thing is I have 2 lads aged 6 and 13 and when we watch Munster they say, hey look daddy's playing - Unfortunatley me and ROG look alike, Mrs thinks the same - We probably have similar temperaments but I was probably better under the high ball than ROG -

You look like O'Gara, Ruby???!!!!! Dear God, you must be getting a lot of dirty looks around town these days with ye Olde Lions fever coming to a head.

"There's that basteraud now.... look at him looking so innocent and him after losing it all for us last time, the F&**in' C&*$in' B£$*&%din' B*&^ix!"

I try to keep a low profile Fly - which isn't easy for me

The topic of ROG is one which I often discuss with some Irish mates after a few pints. He is seen as one of Irelands greats and a key member of the very good Ireland side in which he played.

IMO however he was one of the reason that such a talented group of players actually underachieved. Had the Sexton of today played throughout ROGS tenure in the 10 shirt then I am pretty sure that they would have swept all before them in the NH.

dragonbreath wrote:The topic of ROG is one which I often discuss with some Irish mates after a few pints. He is seen as one of Irelands greats and a key member of the very good Ireland side in which he played.

IMO however he was one of the reason that such a talented group of players actually underachieved. Had the Sexton of today played throughout ROGS tenure in the 10 shirt then I am pretty sure that they would have swept all before them in the NH.

Sexton 1 ROG 0

Whammy!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps, but that's kinda like saying Campese, with his chubby-legged premature middle-aged spread, would be roasted, sliced, marinated and chewed up in the modern game inhabited by terminator giants.

Luckily for many past greats, they get to retire and leave the player developments to the new generation.