How will O'Gara be remembered?

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I thought he was excellent and very similar to Stephen Jones. I feel sorry for ROG as most people will remember his monumental phukkupp in South Africa more than anything else. A shame, but that's sport.

Blue Im afraid its solid fact that he's best player in Heineken Cup history.

ERC handed him a best Player of All Time Award in 2010.

Actually to be fair that was two years ago but in 2010-2011 he was regarded as best Heineken Cup player of all time.

mrsuperclear wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:See now I get the Munster references, he was a Munster legend, great at what he was good at and performed immensely with the Munster gameplan. He was however certainly not the 'greatest player the HC has ever seen' there would be a hundred players wanting to dispute that, including a certain mr O Connell!!!

In reality he was a points machine, and would do a job unrivalled in Ireland for years, and toured twice with the lions....

I will remember him as a Munster legend, long term Irish 10 an twice tourist of the lions, there will be a slight tarnish on his record as the lions mess up to lose the 2nd test, and the rumours of his private life, plus playing on a few seasons too long, but there aren't many players without the odd tarnished reputation.

I wouldn't compare him to Wilkinson as Wilkinson has a far more distinguished career, has won more, and in every team he has played has command legendary respect by all and sundry, not to mention being probably the most professional player since rugby turned pro.

Similarly to ROG, he will be remembered as a legend in IReland and less so outside IReland, like Jones will be remembered as a legend of the Welsh game but less so outside Wales.

Not that it's overly important, but he toured three times with the Lions. He may not have played in many tests on tour, but that is another indicator of his longevity and his consistent performances over the years.

I can see why people outside of Ireland would remember him for the Lions. People are defined more by their mistakes than their triumphs, that's just the way life is.

Still, undoubtedly an Irish legend who also was definitely one of the best players to ever grace the Heineken cup with his performances in a red jersey over the years.

Apologies he toured 3 times, I hadn't realised. And I am not criticising him on the liosn mistake, it was after all just the 2 mistakes he made in a 10 second period with a rush of blood, every forward who has ever played the game does that per month, it's just that it was such a critical mistake, of epic proportion on the largest stage possible, so easily rememberable.

He will go down in HC history for his points scored and games played stats, and rightly so, but to claim he is one of the greats of HC history, when hundreds of world cup winners, world player of the year winners, club, country and lions captains/legends of the game have graced the tournament???

For me a competition great is the guy who when transferred into any team would improve it massively, and on a consistent basis, players like Dayglo, Hill, M. Williams, Wilkinson, POC, Castro, BOD, Jauzion and tons more players who were the envy of every team in the tournament for season after season. As good as ROG was for Munster it was really the Munster desire and ethos that carried them through teams at times, ROG was a great servant but hardly a great ability wise.

Ah see that's where we differ. I thought 14 years of consistent performances for his actual team counted for more than hypothetical performances for an imaginary team

How he may have done at Touluse or Tigers is simply not relevant. His actual achievements in the Heineken Cup are.

red_stag wrote:Ah see that's where we differ. I thought 14 years of consistent performances for his actual team counted for more than hypothetical performances for an imaginary team

How he may have done at Touluse or Tigers is simply not relevant. His actual achievements in the Heineken Cup are.

By the same standards there is a little asian winger who has a very strong claim to being the best winger on the planet

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Apologies he toured 3 times, I hadn't realised. And I am not criticising him on the liosn mistake, it was after all just the 2 mistakes he made in a 10 second period with a rush of blood, every forward who has ever played the game does that per month, it's just that it was such a critical mistake, of epic proportion on the largest stage possible, so easily rememberable.

He will go down in HC history for his points scored and games played stats, and rightly so, but to claim he is one of the greats of HC history, when hundreds of world cup winners, world player of the year winners, club, country and lions captains/legends of the game have graced the tournament???

For me a competition great is the guy who when transferred into any team would improve it massively, and on a consistent basis, players like Dayglo, Hill, M. Williams, Wilkinson, POC, Castro, BOD, Jauzion and tons more players who were the envy of every team in the tournament for season after season. As good as ROG was for Munster it was really the Munster desire and ethos that carried them through teams at times, ROG was a great servant but hardly a great ability wise.

Before dismissing being selected as the greatest player of the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup, perhaps you might watch who selected him as the player. Since Wilko (then) or Martin Williams never won the Heineken Cup, it was highly unlikely that they would be in the running to make the team. 3 Munster players made the dream team: Wallace, Foley & ROG.

Full team was: 1. Califano, 2 Servat, 3. Marconnet, 4 Johnson, 5 Pelous, 6 Elsom, 7 D Wallace, 8 Foley, 9. Rob Howley, 10 Ronan O'Gara, 11 Clerc, 12 Jauzion, 13 O'Driscoll, 14 Lewsey, 15 G Murphy.


http://www.ercrugby.com/15

thebluesmancometh wrote:

red_stag wrote:Ah see that's where we differ. I thought 14 years of consistent performances for his actual team counted for more than hypothetical performances for an imaginary team

How he may have done at Touluse or Tigers is simply not relevant. His actual achievements in the Heineken Cup are.

By the same standards there is a little asian winger who has a very strong claim to being the best winger on the planet

So how does he do against the big boys?

8 tries against Taipai
6 tries against Hong Kong

thebluesmancometh wrote:

He will go down in HC history for his points scored and games played stats, and rightly so, but to claim he is one of the greats of HC history, when hundreds of world cup winners, world player of the year winners, club, country and lions captains/legends of the game have graced the tournament???

WC winners and Lions captains etc... has absolutely nothing to do with being a Great of the HC competition. You don't just show up (like Elsom did) do your season and be a GREAT of the competition. GREATS of anything get to be great because of longevity added to success. The HC is its own competition, exotic WC winners don't just show up for a wet week in it and expect to be automatically slotted into the pantheon of HC greats simply by virtue of their extra-cirricular work outside that competition. Come on blues - you're above a comment like that.

O'Gara is one of the Greats of the HC, he is because he's achieved records in it that are real. He has the records and to churlishly drop him into an also-ran category, in a competition he had such a large part to play in over the years, is beneath you.

red_stag wrote:FYI the poll above only allows you select Irish or Lions for remembering him. No option for remembering him as a Munster legend.

He is a Munster legend and he is one of the all-time Heineken Cup greats. I don't get it bluesman, and when I of all people think you're being way too harsh on ROG you've kind of gone off the deep end!

You might accuse me of looking at ROG through rose tinted goggles too but I'd say some of my friends from Munster might find that ironic...

I remember watching the grand slam match against Wales (I hadn't watched much NH rugby before then) and thinking this Irish 10 is really putting his team under a lot of pressure. I felt that after he kicked the drop goal to win the game and people were going on about him, that Wales were pretty poor and Ireland were clearly better and it was his fault that the game was even close.That's the main thing I remember him for. It might be unfair but that's what I saw.

The lions second test thing doesn't bother me tbh. The lions offered little in the second half if memory serves. My abiding memory of him ( dunno why ) is him moaning to the ref he was being targeted in the 2005 game at the MS. Altho i dont think this should detract from his overall top record. Happy retirement rog..

Very solid, unspectacular and INCREDIBLY annoying to play against as he just seemed to always be able to find the corners of the pitch and put the defending side under so much pressure
Sadly, though, because it was in his final few games, he will be remembered for that inexplicable cross-kick against Scotland that almost cost Ireland a try.
Perhaps we was like Sevvy and stayed on just past his sell-by date and may be remembered not necessarily for all the right reasons? Which would be a shame as he was one of Ireland's and the Munster's great players

For me it was the 2007 6Nations, he was amazing then, truly amazing.

After that it was some of the less savoury stuff I guess.

The recent past gets remembered most in the beginning; and then, as the years roll by, the overall career becomes more the measuring stick. O'Gara is safe enough as regards legacy.

His new chapter as coach.......................... now there's an intriguing one.

Anybody who thinks that ROGs muck up lost us the 2nd Test and series haven't got a clue, utterly embarrassing.

If you want to have a look opportunities that we didn't take then how about the 1st Test....... Ugo Monye mucking up a certain two tries, or Mike Phillips sleeping around the scrum in the 1st and 3rd tests, David Wallace out of position for the first and second tries in the 1st test etc etc etc. We should have won the first test, and wrapped up the second long before ROG had a moment of madness, and maybe we wouldn't have been talking about one brief moment in the whole of the first two tests.

The problem is there are a rare few who only look at bits and pieces of a match/test/series and then come up silly comments.

I look at ROG as the ultimate professional, a points machine, better attacker and defender than people give him credit, the best Irish 10 for a decade, and possibly the greatest Heino Cup player ever. The 2nd test muck up was incidental to otherwise a wonderful career.

He was for most of his carear one of the most consistent 10s in the game, at his peak he was the best around for playing the game tactically, kicking the corners and closing a game out.

I'm amazed that ROG's record in the HC makes him the best player to grace the competition, but 2 japanese wingers who lead the all time test scoring list don't get the same acknowledgement as 2 of the best wingers ever to play the game???

Someone mentioned the best team to grace the competition...

1. Califano, 2 Servat, 3. Marconnet, 4 Johnson, 5 Pelous, 6 Elsom, 7 D Wallace, 8 Foley, 9. Rob Howley, 10 Ronan O'Gara, 11 Clerc, 12 Jauzion, 13 O'Driscoll, 14 Lewsey, 15 G Murphy.

Do we all agree 100% with that team too? Because I would disagree with about half of it!!!

ROG will deservedly be remembered as a Munster legend, and regarded as an Irish legend in Ireland, outside of Ireland he will be remembered for differing reasons, but mostly for being a good int player who had a very long and immensely succesfull career for his ability.

Blue we are talking about one specific competition.

SecretFly wrote:That's the heavily bandaged O'Gara who was probably concussed and still on the field?

This is why I easily throw off the bloody Lion's sanctimonious purist bullshitt that goes on on these threads.

We're all the one until a scapegoat is needed for yet another series loss by the glorious Lions.
I wish there was a yawn emoticon in this place for all the syrupy drivel I hear about ye olde Lions and what an individual player might do to kill the eternal dream that they're always better than they mostly ever prove to be.

All Hail the Lions

+111111 fly

every 4 years we get this drivel about the lions - old farts like willie john and slattery trotted out telling us all about the glorious history of the lions and how going to SA in 1974 did not do anything to prop the regime blah blah (and i'm the same bleedin age as these old farts!!). as a true blue leinster ladyboy i've thought and said a lot of negative things about rog over the last 15 years, but i would never accuse him of lack of commitment and pride in his province and his country. and then to hear this bilge about losing the series for the lions, jeez makes me want to vomit.
rog will always be a hero to real irish fans - whether they're from north, south, east or west. he goes on to the next state of his career with the thanks of everybody in green. f1ck the begrudgers.

Not my favourite player but then again no one who tours with the lions 3 times, none as replacement is a bad player and people should think back to What 10s Ireland had before him.

Humpherys was ok at best but the rest were beyond rubbish... Well for at least 10 years prior.

I will always remember him for his rushing up in the 2005 6N final match vs Wales where he kept on getting penalised for it. I recall after the ref said they told him prior to the kickoff that they were going to do it.... Prior warning didn't make it legal.... Still did it many times and the ref pulled them up every time. Jokes.

red_stag wrote:Blue we are talking about one specific competition.

No we're not we are talking ROG being remembered full stop. Like I said a Munster legend, good Irish international and a 3 times lions tourist, anything beyond that is sentimental.

ROG was never the 'best kicker of his generation' he wasn't the 'best player to grace the HC' he was a very proud and passionate Munsterman, a good servant to his country who was rewarded with touring with the lions 3 times.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

red_stag wrote:Blue we are talking about one specific competition.

No we're not we are talking ROG being remembered full stop. Like I said a Munster legend, good Irish international and a 3 times lions tourist, anything beyond that is sentimental.

ROG was never the 'best kicker of his generation' he wasn't the 'best player to grace the HC' he was a very proud and passionate Munsterman, a good servant to his country who was rewarded with touring with the lions 3 times.

I actually agree with all of that Blue. He was a one dimensional player who proved the beauty of rugby. You dont need to be an all rounder to succeed.

However the particular disagreement we have is with regards to his role in the Heineken Cup not 6 Nations, World Cup, Celtic League, Lions Tour or any other game.

There were, are and will be better players, better flyhalves even than Ronan O'Gara. However no player has been as consistently superb in the Heineken Cup in the as he; a fact recognised by the European Rugby Cup.

IMO you are clouded by O'Gara not being a clear success in other tournaments. However in the Heineken Cup he is peerless.

His drop goal to break a 60-year deadlock will undoubtedly live on in Irish folklore for generations, not at all unlike the legacy of Wilkinson's '03 moment for England fans. The man himself will be remembered as being ever-present and making a massive contribution for club and country for the good part of a decade, a contribution which I would personally say is second only to BOD's over that time.

On a less serious note, playing-wise he'll be remembered perhaps as being consistently the least competent tackler on the field. Not having a swipe or trying to detract from his pros but it has to be said, the sight of him getting bounced in the tackle sticks quite firmly in the mind.

I understand both points of view.... Difficult to argue his worth from a HC standpoint, he was a great performer albeit behind a greater pack.

Jones and wilkinson for instance never played in teams (until recently) which could challenge for year on year HC success... Had O'Gara been in the same teams he would have never got such plaudits.

Then again, you get the hand you're dealt with and he made the most of the players he had and his own talents. He should be very proud of his achievements, probably the best Irish 10 in 30 years.

red_stag wrote:I actually agree with all of that Blue. He was a one dimensional player who proved the beauty of rugby. You dont need to be an all rounder to succeed.

Ah come on he wasn't one dimensional. He had a great array of offensive kicks and had a great long passing game of either hand.

Later in his career, his reflexes dulled which made him stand deeper and thus less effective in attack but circa 2005-2008 he was a superbly rounded no 10, defence notwithstanding.

I'll remember him as a consummate tactical kicker, above all else. And also the feeling, if your side was just a couple of points ahead against his near the end of the game, that almost inevitably somehow he'd get a drop-goal or penalty over to sneak the win.

Never warmed to him as a person, but he was a good quality international fly-half for a long time.

Much maligned but he will be missed by Ireland for his dependability.

You have to remember what a general he was in the mid-2000s. He will never ever be on a highlight reel for his running game but god knows how many opposing teams he shattered by cracking over a last minute drop goal.

Like a lot of NH players, the game worked against his physical limitations but he made the best of what he had.

The good:

Tactically brilliant

Excellent kicker

Very ballsy. Not afraid tough call and risk.

Mentally very tough.

Good hands

Winning mentality

The bad:

Some off field issues have hampered his game at times. '07 WC for example

His mouth. Has said the wrong thing way too many times.

Tackling. He is brave but not effective.

Running. Rarely beats defenders.

Bernard Jackman works as a coach in France and he says the one player the French always ask him about is O'Gara. He has a huge rep in France because of his tactical nous at 10.

Ill remember him as a balsy, gifted player who bowed out a few years after his sell by date.

Perhaps strangely I'll always remember ROG in a Munster jersey first and foremost, and his exploits for Munster in the Heineken Cup. Clearly an Irish legend also.

His ill-fated decision not to put the ball out of play in the 2nd Test in 2009 will of course haunt him, but my memory of ROG will always be him receiving bullett like passes from Stringer and hammering the ball into the corners, whilst the body language of the opposition forwards slumps at the thought of competing against POC for the ball.

From the persepctive of an opposition fan, I'd say that ROG was a very tactically astute fly half who made the most of his abilities. Playing for much of his career outside the best passing SH in the game and (for Ireland) with one very good and one great centre outside him took the pressure off his relatively weak running game. And for Muster he was behind one of the great packs of the modern era, again allowing him to show the assets he did have.

He wasn't someone that had me worried that he was going to turn a game with a moment of individual brilliance, but I'm sure most forwards hated playing against him simply because he was so good at playing the territory game. Good goal and drop goal kicker as well, so kept opposing sides under pressure.

Was never a great defender, and carried on for longer than he should have, but overall was a good to very good player.

I think opposition fans always fail to fully appreciate players of his type. He wouldn't beat you with an outrageous bit of skill but he was relentless in pushing you back in the corners, keeping the pressure on and then nailing the kicks.

Sadly, for him, he will be remembered by many for his efforts in a Lions' shirt, both the nightmare end to the SA 2nd test and the battering he took from McRae.

Its definitely understandable that opposition fans won't remember as much as his own and Lions (when they pay most attention) will be whats remembered clearly.

Stephen Jones retired recently and for me the clearest memory I have of him is failing to score the kick to deny Ireland the Grand Slam in 2009.

It would be different for a Welsh fan.

O'Gara in his pomp was the sort of Flyhalf that if France had played with him at 10 in the last 6nations, they probably could have won the thing. Such was his understanding of playing the game in the right areas and putting his team where they needed to be to strike.

Perhaps not so much in the later years.

He's won games, and lost games, like all flyhalves, what hes acheived is no meant feat and he will surely go down as a modern-day great along with his Irish buddies BOD & POC.

GunsGerms wrote:The good:

Tactically brilliant

Excellent kicker

Very ballsy. Not afraid tough call and risk.

Mentally very tough.

Good hands

Winning mentality

The bad:

Some off field issues have hampered his game at times. '07 WC for example

His mouth. Has said the wrong thing way too many times.

Tackling. He is brave but not effective.

Running. Rarely beats defenders.

Bernard Jackman works as a coach in France and he says the one player the French always ask him about is O'Gara. He has a huge rep in France because of his tactical nous at 10.

Ill remember him as a ballsy, gifted player who bowed out a few years after his sell by date.

A pretty good summary GG. And if I was reading it name-unseen (and if "running" was in the "good" column) I'd probably have assumed it was about Andrew Mehrtens - which isn't a bad comparison

Unfortunately costing the Lions a possible series win in 2009 for me.

same as fluxy, it's the balls up in 2009 that i'll remember him for. Rush of blood to the head.

I suppose I will remember O'gara predominately for his role in the dominant (but not always eye pleasing) Munster side of the mid-2000's. He was the perfect FH for that pack of forwards really and some of his kicks to the corners were just brilliant.

My other memory really is of his 2 Lions moments mentioned already, not really fair seeing as I know he must have 100 odd Irish caps and a sack load of points, but thats what comes to mind for me.

Fluxy wrote:Unfortunately costing the Lions a possible series win in 2009 for me.

How? The matches were level and the Lions were heading for draw.

Id say the front 5 selection in the 1st test cost the Lions the series as much as ROG in the 2nd test.

Had the selection been better in the first test I think we would have seen games 1 and 2 being very close with possibly the 3rd being the decider instead of a dead rubber.

All conjecture of course.

Pete the Andrew Merthens comparison is apt as he is thought of primarily as a kicker but both were far more than that. I think the problem with comparing fly halves is that we have Johnny Wilkinson and Carter in the last few years as reference points and it's impossible to hold a candle to those two. Rog loved through both those careers but like many fine 10s since then it's difficult to stand out from the crowd of other hopefuls. You add in his Munster career though and suddenly his name stands out far more. At least for me. As an AB fan Ogara never got me nervous in a way that BOD did. But Ireland was never allowed to impose a Munster like plan on nz to any great effect whereas bod was able to exhibit more individual brilliance. That is in part because nz are good at exposing weaknesses and rog had those particularly on defence. But in a way rog was similar in that he was a great reader of the game and knew how to build pressure. He is an Irish great but in the pantheon of world rugby he had a very distinguished but not illustrious career. Doug Hewlett recently retired. Nz's most prolific try scorer but not an all time great either for nz let alone world rugby. Harsh you may feel but that is how it should be: easier to pass a camel through the eye of The Needle than to pads into the kingdom of rugby greats.

Rog was turned back at the door. Some think it was his lip that made the bouncer turn him away. I think it was more the quality of his shoes.

Merhtens and ROG were both far more complete fly halves than Wilkinson imo.

Merhtens had great running game, he just seemed a conservative pick compared to his auld rival Carlos Spencer....

rodders wrote:Merhtens and ROG were both far more complete fly halves than Wilkinson imo.

Merhtens had great running game, he just seemed a conservative pick compared to his auld rival Carlos Spencer....

Merhts was a (marginally) better defender than Carlos too - he generally got carried/dragged along by the guy he was tackling whereas Carlos tended to favour the "matador" tackle.

On the flip side, Carlos never knocked out his S12 coach after being told off about his drinking. Granted RD admitted he deserved it, but Mitchell held enough of a grudge to not select Mehrts for RWC 2003.

[quote]Speaking of Mehrtens ... interview with him on French rugby in Saturday's Irish Times:

I think so much talent is wasted in France’ – Mehrtens
After more than five years playing and coaching in the country, the former All Black outhalf feels French sides play more as individuals

“But you still see, a lot of the time, they play as individuals and that’s French teams probably to a tee. That’s their weakness. If they feel that everybody is on song on their day they will beat up anyone because they’ve got phenomenal athletes right throughout the country but they’re just so individual.
“You wonder if they are even team people. What they call their esprit de clocher , which is the belltower spirit, that the club die for the village, they talk that up but then at the same time they don’t live it day to day in their lives.

“If you look at Michalak and Trinh-Duc, they’re talented individual players but they’re not organisers; they’re not guys necessarily who read the game. They read the situation and have a crack with individual skill but they’re not guys who will move a team around the park very well.”

He adores the intense passion of Toulon and their “phenomenal” array of players. “They’ve got a goalkicker who can win you matches as well as a guy like Matt Giteau who is the creator. And I think the key for me with Toulon is getting that balance between Wilkinson running the game and Giteau running the game.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/i-think-so-much-talent-is-wasted-in-france-mehrtens-1.1398900?page=1

Wilkinson is another to be labelled one dimensional. His weaknesses were running and the passing distribution of other 10s. But he did some things so well like defence and kicking that he deserves his place.

Merths for me is my favourite AB fly half and Bachop my favourite 9. Not because they were canty legends (though that helps) but because they did fundamental things very well. They also had frailties. Like a good comic super hero they had human weaknesses. Carter and Johnny are exemplary men who never courted controversy and were role models for all. But they're frustrating as role models in that they're so good. It's like Superman. Only kryptonite can kill him. Has anyone seen this Kyrptonite. Give me flaws I can really see. Rog in that respect is much more one to be championed and I totally relate. He was no Superman but like Batman he had obvious fears and he worked hard to overcome them. Plus he had that annoying little sidekick called Stringer following him everywhere he went and he always looked like a boy in that uniform even though he could kick arse. Against all odds rog always seemed to fill out his Irish costume and make himself look more threatening than what he should have.

Being a complete flyhalf doesn't mean they're a better player.

Could ROG run a backline better than JW.... sure. Would anyone have ROG in their team over JW if their life depended on it... both now and throughout their mirror era careers???? Not a chance.

Spencer was not a complete player... couldn't kick from a tee to save his life... he was still the most talented rugby player we've seen in the pro era.. second to none.

fa0019 wrote:Being a complete flyhalf doesn't mean they're a better player.

Could ROG run a backline better than JW.... sure. Would anyone have ROG in their team over JW if their life depended on it... both now and throughout their mirror era careers???? Not a chance.

Spencer was not a complete player... couldn't kick from a tee to save his life... he was still the most talented rugby player we've seen in the pro era.. second to none.

Im not sure Wilko would ever have been an automatic test pick over ROG. I suppose it would depend on the opposition. Im not sure that there was the same emphasis on a very strong defensive 10 now as there was ten years ago which is the only criteria I can see for picking Wilko over Rog. Even still while Wilko's D was exceptional even ferocious for the first part of his career it certainly wasnt great towards the mid to late part after all his injuries.

fa0019 wrote:Being a complete flyhalf doesn't mean they're a better player.

Could ROG run a backline better than JW.... sure. Would anyone have ROG in their team over JW if their life depended on it... both now and throughout their mirror era careers???? Not a chance.

Spencer was not a complete player... couldn't kick from a tee to save his life... he was still the most talented rugby player we've seen in the pro era.. second to none.

I think a lot of people forget just how good England's back line was between about 2000 and 2003, with Wilkinson pulling the strings. Later on for England, with less quality ball and less talented players outside him, he didn't look so good (although he runs the Toulon backline brilliantly even now, behind a good pack).

As for Spencer, a tremendously gifted player but lacked a bit between the ears and was too indisciplined (tactically / game management rather than in terms of conceding penalties) to be a great 10 of the professional era - he came at least 20 years too late for a player of his type (I'm thinking Barry John and Mark Ella as amateur comparisons).

The only time when they were both fit and ROG was probably on a par with JW was in 11.. and ROG was by then 2nd choice with Ireland no? JW should have been a 2nd choice also.

01 - Lions tour, JW was well ahead.
03 - no need to mention.
05 - lions tour, JW injured and still ahead.
07 - dragged a terrible england side to the RWC final. Easily ahead.
09 - Lions tour, JW was injured.
11- probably par.
13 - JW, re-energised with Toulon and playing well. Finished career strong and records speak for themselves.

ROG was a very good player mind... nothing against that. Wilkinson is one of the greats with Spencer, Larkham, Carter. ROG is in the next tier with Stephen Jones, Morne Steyn, Matt Giteau, Butch James & Gregor Townsend. He's easily the best Irish 10 in 30 years (my knowledge deminishes at this point for age purposes).

According to Mehrtens, Giteau is the creator in the Toulon team.

“They’ve got a goalkicker who can win you matches as well as a guy like Matt Giteau who is the creator. And I think the key for me with Toulon is getting that balance between Wilkinson running the game and Giteau running the game.''

Some of you will be surprised to hear at the ripe old age of 36, Clermont offered ROG a player/coaching deal.

dummy_half wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Being a complete flyhalf doesn't mean they're a better player.

Could ROG run a backline better than JW.... sure. Would anyone have ROG in their team over JW if their life depended on it... both now and throughout their mirror era careers???? Not a chance.

Spencer was not a complete player... couldn't kick from a tee to save his life... he was still the most talented rugby player we've seen in the pro era.. second to none.

I think a lot of people forget just how good England's back line was between about 2000 and 2003, with Wilkinson pulling the strings. Later on for England, with less quality ball and less talented players outside him, he didn't look so good (although he runs the Toulon backline brilliantly even now, behind a good pack).

As for Spencer, a tremendously gifted player but lacked a bit between the ears and was too indisciplined (tactically / game management rather than in terms of conceding penalties) to be a great 10 of the professional era - he came at least 20 years too late for a player of his type (I'm thinking Barry John and Mark Ella as amateur comparisons).

Backline was good sure but from 01-03 he never had an alternative receiver bar some disasterious Charlie Hodgson experiments which SCW continued into the 05 Lions tour. His centres were Tindall, Greenwood, Catt. Catt was a superb player mind and got England through the RWCQF for sure but his cameo's were often like Will Farrell in Wedding Crashers... brief but superb.

Greenwood was a great runner but never was an alternative receiver. They even played Robinson and Lewsey at fullback so he got no joy their either. That backline was run by JW.