Who SHOULD be the Lions 10's?

It should be the current best 3. In my opinion these are:

Wilkinson
Sexton
Biggar

Anyone agree / disagree?

I can't see beyond Sexton to be hinest, Wilkinson already said he isn't going, unkess he cahnges his mind and Gatland wants him, then I would suggest he plays of the bench.

Sexton, on form Biggar should be on the bench but his Dad isn't a coach

If the lions ARE looking for someone to come on late in the game to close it out then wilkIndaughter could well be the man,but surely the lions should be aiming to be more ambitious,no?

Biltong wrote:...Wilkinson already said he isn't going...

He didn't. This is what he actually said about his conversation with Gatland:

'I told him where I am at the moment, that there's a bit of day-to-day management where my body is concerned,' Wilkinson said. 'I'll see how I am at the end of the club season and if Warren needs me and I am able to get involved, that would be fabulous.

sickofwendy wrote:If the lions ARE looking for someone to come on late in the game to close it out then wilkIndaughter could well be the man,but surely the lions should be aiming to be more ambitious,no?

Ambitious coaches pick the best players at their disposal. Wilkinson is surely currently one of the best, just not available it would seem. Owen Pharrell Williams selection mystifies me.

Oh goody...a new Lions topic!!!!!! .... flyhalves and which one

Depends on what your looking for in your 10,whilst pharrell isn't in great form and a lot of people think he shouldn't be there, he is so therefore if you do bring someone in they should bring a bit of flair,something different from nowhere a miss pass or a jink into space to release north or hogg,a Madigan or even flood.
I don't think johnny has the game to breach the Australian defence any more.

Well Farrell shouldn't be anywhere enar that jersey. Prove a number of time this year he can't step up in big games, for example the aviva and heineken cup semi fianls and the game agaisnt wales for the grand slam.
Sexton an easy choice but Wilko must make himself available for the tour. We can't have Owen as back up.

I really saw nothing from wilkinson to show he is any better than the current options. If he didnt gave the brilliant Giteau outside him he would have looked very average. Aimlessly kicked away too much ball.

maestegmafia wrote:I really saw nothing from wilkinson to show he is any better than the current options. If he didnt gave the brilliant Giteau outside him he would have looked very average. Aimlessly kicked away too much ball.

There was the 17 successful kicks (no misses, including drop goal attempts) in the last 2 rounds of a high pressure competition which his team, which he captained, won.

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I really saw nothing from wilkinson to show he is any better than the current options. If he didnt gave the brilliant Giteau outside him he would have looked very average. Aimlessly kicked away too much ball.

There was the 17 successful kicks (no misses, including drop goal attempts) in the last 2 rounds of a high pressure competition which his team, which he captained, won.

Isn't that what we expect of a goal kicker...?

What makes a flyhalf exceptional is their ability to read the opposition and make a difference. Giteau was the only creative player in the Toulon team today.

Wilkinsonmania really has to stop, the guy is nowhere near Sexton's form atm. Yea he might be a slightly better option than farrell, but people are acting as if he is replicating his 2003 form. Fair play to Wilko kicking Toulon to a Heineken cup win but Sexton did that for the last two years for Leinster. Regardless of what people think of the Amlin final, Sexton's kicking was flawless last night too. Sexton is and will probably remain the best outhalf option for the Lions.

Ledge the ledgebag wrote:Wilkinsonmania really has to stop, the guy is nowhere near Sexton's form atm. Yea he might be a slightly better option than farrell, but people are acting as if he is replicating his 2003 form. Fair play to Wilko kicking Toulon to a Heineken cup win but Sexton did that for the last two years for Leinster. Regardless of what people think of the Amlin final, Sexton's kicking was flawless last night too. Sexton is and will probably remain the best outhalf option for the Lions.

I am not arguing with that. It would seem a very retrograde step to take Wilkinson on the Lions trip. (e.g I dont think he should go and I am amazed the possibility ever came up in the first place). But despite being held together with sticky tape etc he is still capable of some great performances and he is obviously loved down in (and is very important to) Toulon. I dont get the Johnny hate, or the Farrell hate for that matter.

It is a weak time for NH no.10's. Having Sexton on form is huge, but as everyone says after him its anyones guess, but looking at the last year as a whole there have been plenty of good reasons for taking Farrell along.

lostinwales wrote:

Ledge the ledgebag wrote:Wilkinsonmania really has to stop, the guy is nowhere near Sexton's form atm. Yea he might be a slightly better option than farrell, but people are acting as if he is replicating his 2003 form. Fair play to Wilko kicking Toulon to a Heineken cup win but Sexton did that for the last two years for Leinster. Regardless of what people think of the Amlin final, Sexton's kicking was flawless last night too. Sexton is and will probably remain the best outhalf option for the Lions.

I am not arguing with that. It would seem a very retrograde step to take Wilkinson on the Lions trip. (e.g I dont think he should go and I am amazed the possibility ever came up in the first place). But despite being held together with sticky tape etc he is still capable of some great performances and he is obviously loved down in (and is very important to) Toulon. I dont get the Johnny hate, or the Farrell hate for that matter.

It is a weak time for NH no.10's. Having Sexton on form is huge, but as everyone says after him its anyones guess, but looking at the last year as a whole there have been plenty of good reasons for taking Farrell along.

Wilkinson has always been one of the nicest men in sport. Cracking bloke selfless hardworking player with levels of determination that inspire everyone. And rightly so.

Regarding the quality of tens available I think the main problem is the quality is so young and un-tested at international level. Farrell, despite being the second best flyhalf at saracens, is the only of the new wave to have secured his spot at international level.

But besides Farrell there is so much talent that maybe should tour ahead of him and should be rated as a greater option than Wilkinson as cover. Ireland have Keatly, Madigan and Jackson, Wales have Biggar, Owen Williams, Steffan Jones and Patchell.

Sexton, Farrell & Wilko.

End of.

I think Sexton will be the Starting fly half. And Farrell will be the bench options.

Will some one explain to me why they think that Dan Biggar should be in front of Farrell?

Wilkinson is not going. get over it. He is too old and too slow.

majesticimperialman wrote:And Farrell will be the bench options.

Why does Farrell achieve a Pluralised mention? Are you making a joke about him only being there because of his father being coach?

majesticimperialman wrote:Will some one explain to me why they think that Dan Biggar should be in front of Farrell?

Basically because Biggar has shown over time to be a far more accomplished player at flyhalf. Biggar is more experienced and has performed when the pressure is on numerous times with excellent displays. He has been instrumental in the Ospreys winning two difficult Pro 12 title matches, closing out tough season finishes. He has put in some fine display in the six nations to take the title for Wales from second place.

Meanwhile Farrell has shown that he doesn't have the temperament three times in crucial games this year, Six Nations Grandslam decider, HEC Semis and Premiership Play offs were he was out classed by Biggar, Wilkinson and Myler.

Dan Biggar recent achiements

2010 - Pro12 final win away at Leinster
2012 - Pro12 final win away at Leinster (ridiculous touchline conversion for the win)
2013 - Influential part of Welsh championship and record defeat of England.

It doesn't make sense why he's not there.

I'm surprised no journalist has asked Wilkinson: "Have you been practising with the new Lions match ball?". I'd assume that anyone being pencilled in as a flyhalf or potential kicking back-up would benefit from some time with it.

Perhaps someone could also ask kicking coach Neil Jenkins which players in the Home Unions have been given a ball. That might help with this speculation.

Anyone wondering whether Quade Cooper features in Robbie Deans plans might ask him whether he's got his hands on one. It was unveiled in March.

Wilkinson denies that he's going to be part of the Lions set-up but get's caught out on a trick question about the Lion's match ball?

"I told you lot before. I'm not going anwhere close to Australia this summer."
"But you've been practicing with Lion's match balls?"
"Yeah.... had them now for a month as I need to be up to spee................. "

Wouldn't it be just handier for the journalist to just ask "So Wilco... I can call you Wilco, can't I?............ okay then, Mr. Wilkinson sir, you're still not going to go on the Lions tour?"

Sexton starting is a no-brainer.
I do wonder about the bench option, though. If it is acknowledged by the Lions management that Stuart Hogg is covering stand-off, is there not a good argument for having him on the bench (here's hoping he actually starts, though) ahead of Farrell as he can cover 10, 11, 14 and 15?

SecretFly wrote:Wilkinson denies that he's going to be part of the Lions set-up...

It's funny how people keep saying that even though I've posted Wilkinson's own words twice on the forum, once earlier in this thread. Here they are again:

'I told him where I am at the moment, that there's a bit of day-to-day management where my body is concerned,' Wilkinson said. 'I'll see how I am at the end of the club season and if Warren needs me and I am able to get involved, that would be fabulous.

It may be, if Gatland does put the question again - and he may decide not to - Wilkinson decides at that point he isn't up to it, and needs the off season to prepare properly for next year. However, as he hasn't said anything else since those comments, I don't know why some here are so convinced he's already changed his mind.

His Toulon team mate, Simon Shaw, speculated the other day that Wilkinson would be invited to join even if it was a prop who went down first.

Rugby Fan, I'm afraid I might have been posting that notion that Wilkinson didn't exactly say 'never' even for a longer duration than you have.

That wasn't the point of my comment though. I've said often enough on threads here that it seems to me Wilkinson said to Gatland - 'nope, not for the full tour and the mid-week games. I'm past that. If you have a genuine need for me come the actual tests, then we can talk then but the full tour - no.'

But my comment was about the need for journalists to catch him out with talk about match balls. They wouldn't need to go so far. Just ask him the question again. "Would you go now if asked?"

If he's going to lie about his intentions of going (to keep Lions secrets etc) then he's not going to tell the truth about what balls he might have been practicing with recently.

SecretFly wrote:... I've said often enough on threads here that it seems to me Wilkinson said to Gatland - 'nope, not for the full tour and the mid-week games. I'm past that. If you have a genuine need for me come the actual tests, then we can talk then but the full tour - no....

I think it's even simpler than that. Wilkinson isn't playing mind games, or setting terms for his involvement. He was asked if he could get on the plane to Hong Kong and he said no, because he feels an obligation to Toulon. He's captain of a team which has given him a new lease of life on rugby, where his team mates have encouraged him to go on for another year, and Toulon has a big match coming up. Wilkinson has always been loyal. He played for Newcastle for longer than many thought professionally wise, but he felt he had obligations there too.

In a self-deprecating way, he gave Gatland reasons to feel no regret at his answer- "not sure if my body would make it anyway" - but left the door open to join-up if needed. He didn't try and ask for a delayed inclusion like the one Woodward offered him in 2005. From all he has said, if a call comes once he has concluded the season with Toulon, he'll go, and do so unconditionally. The only thing I can see stopping him, is if he really does decide his body needs rest, and elects for a proper off season. There's really no reason to think Wilkinson has any other agenda.

Asking him if he's trained with the Lions match ball is no trick question. Based on his coments, I'd expect him to have given it a run and be happy to say so. If, instead, he hasn't picked one up recently, then that would suggest he has indeed had a change of heart.

no mention of hog being the third flyhalf . if there no injures to the two number tens then wilks won't be going . lot of people seem to wish this to happen strange

Is this a joke thread.

There is only One owen Farrel. One owen farrell , Ony one owen Farreeeeeelll

Jonny Sexton, Ian Madigan and Dan Biggar but hey ho sometimes you've got to throw a dog a bone.

Rugby Fan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:... I've said often enough on threads here that it seems to me Wilkinson said to Gatland - 'nope, not for the full tour and the mid-week games. I'm past that. If you have a genuine need for me come the actual tests, then we can talk then but the full tour - no....

I think it's even simpler than that. Wilkinson isn't playing mind games, or setting terms for his involvement. He was asked if he could get on the plane to Hong Kong and he said no, because he feels an obligation to Toulon. He's captain of a team which has given him a new lease of life on rugby, where his team mates have encouraged him to go on for another year, and Toulon has a big match coming up. Wilkinson has always been loyal. He played for Newcastle for longer than many thought professionally wise, but he felt he had obligations there too.

In a self-deprecating way, he gave Gatland reasons to feel no regret at his answer- "not sure if my body would make it anyway" - but left the door open to join-up if needed. He didn't try and ask for a delayed inclusion like the one Woodward offered him in 2005. From all he has said, if a call comes once he has concluded the season with Toulon, he'll go, and do so unconditionally. The only thing I can see stopping him, is if he really does decide his body needs rest, and elects for a proper off season. There's really no reason to think Wilkinson has any other agenda.

Asking him if he's trained with the Lions match ball is no trick question. Based on his coments, I'd expect him to have given it a run and be happy to say so. If, instead, he hasn't picked one up recently, then that would suggest he has indeed had a change of heart.

Well we disagree on the idea of him 'setting terms' for any contribution he could potentially make. I think he's let Gatland know exactly what he's thinking - and that's tests only (if requested) rather than rooming and playing mid-weekers to fight for his place.
But again...you don't need to ask about a ball to get to the answer you want. Just ask the question "Has Gatland been talking to you again? Have you two had chats?" If he'd be honest about kicking around a ball in practice he'd be honest about having a chat with Gatland.

PS -on that Toulon bit. There is absolutely no clash of interests going on between his commitments to that team and any involvement he might have been percieved to have had with the Lions this Summer. To suggest so is to suggest six Leinster players are already having a clash of interests, given they too have a big match coming up. And Six Leicester and a few Northampton Lions players are still also involved with their clubs too. There would have been no clash of interests that would have dissuaded Wilkinson from declaring that he was going with the Lion in the summer.

Well given he will in all probability not tour, Wilkinson will not be the starting 10.

Sexton will obviously be favourite but I can see Farrell getting the jersey as he looks like a player Gatland would warm to.

Wilkinson though limited as he may be... 17 out of 17 in the HC KO stages... that would be the sort of player the Lions will need on the bench. It would put the fear in the Aussies if nothing else.

I should have been the Lions 10.

Just that I did my knee years ago. Then discovered beer and cheese.

If Australia had done its homework on Lions and stopped their strike running ability dead in its tracks. A heavy duty homework project it would be, by the way!

But if Gatland is finding that his big strategic project has been fully and completely found out and countered, if ready made try scoring opportunities aren't coming - then is the time Wilkinson might be required to change focus; pooling resources into heavy duty forward pressure added to Wilkinson's metronomic penalty kicks and drop goal ability.

The only thing I feel is that if Gatland was forced to restructure his thoughts to such an extent, he'd feel he had failed miserably. Gatland wants to prove his 'Welsh' game works against Australia. That will be important to him. Gatland is a stubborn man and I'm not sure he'll be pragmatic enough to change his patterns when his blood is up with only two tests left to play.

SecretFly wrote:PS -on that Toulon bit. There is absolutely no clash of interests going on between his commitments to that team and any involvement he might have been percieved to have had with the Lions this Summer. To suggest so is to suggest six Leinster players are already having a clash of interests, given they too have a big match coming up. And Six Leicester and a few Northampton Lions players are still also involved with their clubs too. There would have been no clash of interests that would have dissuaded Wilkinson from declaring that he was going with the Lion in the summer.

I think you've misread the schedule.

Home Union club players finish their season next weekend. If Toulon beat Toulouse in the Top 14 semi-final next weekend, they'll be playing in the final on June 1st. That's the same day as the Lions tour opener in Hong Kong.

Rugby Fan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:PS -on that Toulon bit. There is absolutely no clash of interests going on between his commitments to that team and any involvement he might have been percieved to have had with the Lions this Summer. To suggest so is to suggest six Leinster players are already having a clash of interests, given they too have a big match coming up. And Six Leicester and a few Northampton Lions players are still also involved with their clubs too. There would have been no clash of interests that would have dissuaded Wilkinson from declaring that he was going with the Lion in the summer.

I think you've misread the schedule.

Home Union club players finish their season next weekend. If Toulon beat Toulouse in the Top 14 semi-final next weekend, they'll be playing in the final on June 1st. That's the same day as the Lions tour opener in Hong Kong.

My point still holds. Wilkinson saying I'm on the Lions tour does not and would not have compromised his continued involvement with his club...even to June 1st. He didn't have to be available for the Hong Kong game. He didn't have to play in any of the earlier games. Toulon wouldn't have believed that his naming on a Lions side would have meant that he was going to leave them in a lurch for June 1st.

When he would actually head down to Australia would never have been written in stone. Didn't need to be. It certainly isn't written in stone even now as the coy words coming from both Gatland and Wilkinson have always hinted at. No conflict of interest.

SecretFly wrote:...He didn't have to be available for the Hong Kong game...When he would actually head down to Australia would never have been written in stone...

It was written in stone. Gatland asked all the players to be available to get on the plane to Hong Kong. Pro12 and Aviva club finalists can do that but Top14 finalists can't. Gatland said he will overlook Pro12 and Aviva players for the tour opener because he will have had the other players preparing for longer. It doesn't change the fact that he wanted all squad members to leave on the same plane and, in principle, be available to play in Hong Kong.

I wouldnt be unhappy with Wilko being selected but I dont think he is one of the top three OHs in B&I.

My choices would be Sexton, Farrell and Biggar/Madigan

George Carlin wrote:I should have been the Lions 10.

Just that I did my knee years ago. Then discovered beer and cheese.

Was it an arrow?

Rugby Fan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:...He didn't have to be available for the Hong Kong game...When he would actually head down to Australia would never have been written in stone...

It was written in stone. Gatland asked all the players to be available to get on the plane to Hong Kong. Pro12 and Aviva club finalists can do that but Top14 finalists can't. Gatland said he will overlook Pro12 and Aviva players for the tour opener because he will have had the other players preparing for longer. It doesn't change the fact that he wanted all squad members to leave on the same plane and, in principle, be available to play in Hong Kong.

That's a simplification. Gatland would and might still take Wilkinson at any point. The General rule applies to some...not to all. There are always exceptions to declared 'rules' - as Stevens proves

SecretFly wrote:..Gatland would and might still take Wilkinson at any point.

If Toulon don't make it to the Top 14 final, then Gatland could even ask the question again before they fly out. He could also ask Wilkinson to fly out to replace an injured player. That's not in doubt. What you were saying is that Wilkinson has no more of a clash than any Aviva or Pro12 player. That isn't the case.

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I should have been the Lions 10.

Just that I did my knee years ago. Then discovered beer and cheese.

Was it an arrow?

skyrim fellow geek

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I should have been the Lions 10.

Just that I did my knee years ago. Then discovered beer and cheese.

Was it an arrow?

skyrim fellow geek

I had to look that one up, you nerds.

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I really saw nothing from wilkinson to show he is any better than the current options. If he didnt gave the brilliant Giteau outside him he would have looked very average. Aimlessly kicked away too much ball.

There was the 17 successful kicks (no misses, including drop goal attempts) in the last 2 rounds of a high pressure competition which his team, which he captained, won.

He missed a drop goal against Saracens in the semi-final.

Rugby Fan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:..Gatland would and might still take Wilkinson at any point.

If Toulon don't make it to the Top 14 final, then Gatland could even ask the question again before they fly out. He could also ask Wilkinson to fly out to replace an injured player. That's not in doubt. What you were saying is that Wilkinson has no more of a clash than any Aviva or Pro12 player. That isn't the case.

My final one on this. It is the case by my reckoning. And my reckoning is, and always has been, that when Gatland and Wilkinson had their chat about Wilkinson joining the Lions, even then it was always with the knowledge that Wilkinson would first have to end his seasonal commitments to Toulon first. It would never have been any other way or all hell would have broken out with the French club organisers and Lions staff. That was never going to happen. Gatland was never going to steal Wilkinson off Toulon before Toulon's season ended.

So, if both Gatland and Wilkinson admitted to a chat, that chat would always have taken into consideration Wilkinson's prior commitments first. No conflict of interests ever. Had Wilkinson said yes to Gatland, then he was always going to arrive late...it would never have been any other way.

If the current trend continues whereby players are rushing towards France, the Lions tours of the future will need to take this into account before scheduling tour matches... even 1 year out (2014) could have caused perhaps half a dozen top class players from being excluded/joining late.

SecretFly wrote:My final one on this. It is the case by my reckoning. And my reckoning is, and always has been, that when Gatland and Wilkinson had their chat about Wilkinson joining the Lions, even then it was always with the knowledge that Wilkinson would first have to end his seasonal commitments to Toulon first.

Your take contradicts what the Lions management has said. Here's Andy Irvine again:

‘The truth is Jonny wasn’t up for it. Had he said, “I’m your man, I’m desperate to play for the Lions, don’t worry about the French (league) final”, I think that Jonny would have been on the trip. But he didn’t say that. The fact is he’s more or less ruled himself out. I personally feel very passionate that if you want to play for the Lions you prove to us that you want to play for the Lions. Four years ago Nathan Hines was so determined to go he just walked out on Perpignan. That's the attitude we're looking for.’

It's clear Wilkinson was asked if he was prepared to fly out with the rest of the squad. We are where we are because he chose instead to fulfill his commitments with Toulon.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I should have been the Lions 10.

Just that I did my knee years ago. Then discovered beer and cheese.

Was it an arrow?

skyrim fellow geek

Is Skyrim a porn channel?

No Lions Coach is EVER going to demand a player walks out on his club to commit to getting on a plane early, with all the lively giddy lads, to play a warm-up game against the Barbarians. Bunk.... from whatever source. Bunk.

Andy Irvine is talking crap and obviously hasn't got a clue about professional contractual rugby...or the obligations players feel to their profession (the salary bill payers) and the fans of the clubs they play with.

'I used to be a rugby player, like you, but then I took a Tuilagi to the knee...