Anyone else bored with the Gatland bashing and bickering?

I just wondered whether I am the only one who thinks it is time for everyone to stop whinging about Gatland (who were the other options for coach?), his tactics (lots of assumptions are being made), his squad selections (generally sound), etc and get behind the Lions.

It's possible to 'get behind the Lions' at the same time as having reservations over selection and tactics. It's not a choice between rejection of the touring party and absolute unquestioning support.

Agree with LP, plus Gatland is hardly helping to bring unity to proceedings by making comments along the lines of "this is the first time some of the home nations players have been coached properly".

I fully support his appointment as coach, he's the right man for the job. I also think that, with one or two inevitable exceptions, his squad is pretty much right. I still wish he'd learn a thing or two about how to deal with the press. A PR mastermind he is not. Hopefully he's doing a better job with the players behind closed doors, which frankly is what really matters.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's possible to 'get behind the Lions' at the same time as having reservations over selection and tactics. It's not a choice between rejection of the touring party and absolute unquestioning support.

+1

He's just a greatly misunderstood man

I think Cyril suffers from the same thing

is it because hes Welsh coach . personally i found it hard getting behind scw lions when he picked twenty English players after Wales won the slam .

It's only recently moved on to Gatland bickering from the previous Wales bashing. Yes, I am bored of it though.

Lions supporters have never been shy expressing their views about previous tours, so I don't see any difference this time.

On the 606 rugby podcasts, Ozzy has suggested that no active Home Union coach should lead the Lions. I've got some sympathy with that view. Gatland is the first since Graham Henry in 2001 and only the second in the professional era.

He was the obvious pick from the incumbents and he's got the chops for the job. It's not so much a question of whether he can be successful, it's more the potential for conflicts of interest.

The main objection to choosing someone else these days is that there aren't a lot of other decent former international coaches with Home Union experience around. Ozzy ended up proposing Eddie O'Sullivan.

I can't see the Lions ever doing it, but it would be fascinating to see an effective club coach given a chance to step up. We fared pretty well with Carwyn James. Conor O'Shea or Joe Schmidt might have been good choices for this year.

If we want international coaches with a Northern Hemisphere rugby culture, and no apparent conflicts, I suppose we could always choose a Frenchman.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:is it because hes Welsh coach . personally i found it hard getting behind scw lions when he picked twenty English players after Wales won the slam .

From my perspective my criticism today has nothing to do with him being Welsh coach. I just think he had no place, and that it was unneccesary, having a sly dig at the coaches from the other home nations.

Imagine the carnage on here IF a Welsh heavy side loses the first test? Not that we all wish to happen, oh no, but you can bet your mortgage they'll be uproar. I can just see it....

The Saint wrote:It's only recently moved on to Gatland bickering from the previous Wales bashing. Yes, I am bored of it though.

Well actually there was very little Welsh bashing and I wish people would stop throwing that in our faces every time we have a discussion

Most of the initial converstaions were about Stevens

Then Farrell

Then the captaincy

They Robshaw and Brown

Very little Welsh bashing there

So please stop throwing it in our face

Grrrrr

I can't speak for all 'bashers' but my thinking that Gatland hasn't exactly got off on the right foot media wise doesnt mean that I think the whole tour is a disaster and should be scrapped immediately. I will be cheering them just as loudly as anyone else despite thinking Gatland should think a little more about what he says sometimes.

Agree the bashing and whinging is getting a bit much, however what is worse for me at the moment is the information overload.

Reading everyone's opinions on each individual player, their strengths and weaknesses from different perspectives has got me in a spin.

You can literally take any player and do a run down on the info like this.

Player X

His slow- no he is fast
Got poor hands - got great hands


Etc.

Riskysports wrote:

The Saint wrote:It's only recently moved on to Gatland bickering from the previous Wales bashing. Yes, I am bored of it though.

Well actually there was very little Welsh bashing and I wish people would stop throwing that in our faces every time we have a discussion

Most of the initial converstaions were about Stevens

Then Farrell / 2 fly halves

Then the captaincy

Then Lydiate, Robshaw and Brown

Very little Welsh bashing there

So please stop throwing it in our face

Grrrrr

Fixed it slightly.

Actually, perhaps Beshocked has a point. There was as much Saracens bashing than there was Welsh bashing

Anyone else bored with wanderingdragon, keep going on about (WELSH BASHING)?

What does an actual "Get behind the Lions" week or month actually look like?

I'm curious.

A selection of "We're going to smash 'em!" threads?

Wouldn't they get sickly sweet after an hour or two? God, we already have enough sugary stuff coming out of camp in the weeks to come as players go overboard on the verbal backslaps for players from other Nations.

I don't believe there is a dimension in this real world that can cater for a full "Get behind the Lions" week or month.

wanderingdragon.

Posters do have a right to speak out about Gatland and his selection policys. That does not mean that those who do speak out about him, does not support the Lions now does it?

majesticimperialman wrote: Anyone else bored with wanderingdragon, keep going on about (WELSH BASHING)?

Actually I didn't mention Wales - it was Gatland I mentioned! Learn to read properly!

Biltong wrote:Agree the bashing and whinging is getting a bit much, however what is worse for me at the moment is the information overload.

Reading everyone's opinions on each individual player, their strengths and weaknesses from different perspectives has got me in a spin.

You can literally take any player and do a run down on the info like this.

Player X

His slow- no he is fast
Got poor hands - got great hands


Etc.

Don't be talking about a player you know nothing about Bilt!

Player X might have been poor as an underage player but, since he's come into the side, his poor hands have been worked on. He can do poor things now so fast that he can mimic good hands very well indeed if you're not looking at him. His only weakness is his slow brain but he's suffered so many concussion lay-offs in his career that he's very lucky in that regard.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Agree the bashing and whinging is getting a bit much, however what is worse for me at the moment is the information overload.

Reading everyone's opinions on each individual player, their strengths and weaknesses from different perspectives has got me in a spin.

You can literally take any player and do a run down on the info like this.

Player X

His slow- no he is fast
Got poor hands - got great hands


Etc.

Don't be talking about a player you know nothing about Bilt!

Player X might have been poor as an underage player but, since he's come into the side, his poor hands have been worked on. He can do poor things now so fast that he can mimic good hands very well indeed if you're not looking at him. His only weakness is his slow brain but he's suffered so many concussion lay-offs in his career that he's very lucky in that regard.

Says the guy that doesn't even know who player X is.

Just to help you out you are now describing player W

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agree with LP, plus Gatland is hardly helping to bring unity to proceedings by making comments along the lines of "this is the first time some of the home nations players have been coached properly".

I've not heard or read this quote. Anyone got a link?

David Eccs???

Of course I know him....played for us for seven years. Pity Ospreys bought him but I think now they're realising why we sold him.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Agree the bashing and whinging is getting a bit much, however what is worse for me at the moment is the information overload.

Reading everyone's opinions on each individual player, their strengths and weaknesses from different perspectives has got me in a spin.

You can literally take any player and do a run down on the info like this.

Player X

His slow- no he is fast
Got poor hands - got great hands


Etc.

Don't be talking about a player you know nothing about Bilt!

Player X might have been poor as an underage player but, since he's come into the side, his poor hands have been worked on. He can do poor things now so fast that he can mimic good hands very well indeed if you're not looking at him. His only weakness is his slow brain but he's suffered so many concussion lay-offs in his career that he's very lucky in that regard.

Well i actually herd that Player X had been put into a freezer in the local iceland to improve his fitness.

Unfortunately they left him too long and his left foot froze and fell off.

They have replaced it with a chicken, and he is now moving to the wing

Riskysports wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Agree the bashing and whinging is getting a bit much, however what is worse for me at the moment is the information overload.

Reading everyone's opinions on each individual player, their strengths and weaknesses from different perspectives has got me in a spin.

You can literally take any player and do a run down on the info like this.

Player X

His slow- no he is fast
Got poor hands - got great hands


Etc.

Don't be talking about a player you know nothing about Bilt!

Player X might have been poor as an underage player but, since he's come into the side, his poor hands have been worked on. He can do poor things now so fast that he can mimic good hands very well indeed if you're not looking at him. His only weakness is his slow brain but he's suffered so many concussion lay-offs in his career that he's very lucky in that regard.

Well i actually herd that Player X had been put into a freezer in the local iceland to improve his fitness.

Unfortunately they left him too long and his left foot froze and fell off.

They have replaced it with a chicken, and he is now moving to the wing

POLAND, geez do I have to spell everything out?

The last place on earth you'd want to bury a player you are trying to freeze is, ironically, Iceland. One of the most volcanic hot spots on the planet.

I've found this, ""We trained with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before. Some of the Welsh boys hadn't experienced that for a few months as well. It reminded people of what the expectations are."

Not quite the same thing as "not coached properly" is it?

SecretFly wrote:The last place on earth you'd want to bury a player you are trying to freeze is, ironically, Iceland. One of the most volcanic hot spots on the planet.

The store, not the island

Cheaper anyway...

Scarpia wrote:I've found this, ""We trained with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before. Some of the Welsh boys hadn't experienced that for a few months as well. It reminded people of what the expectations are."

Not quite the same thing as "not coached properly" is it?

On the same wavelength, Scarpia.

Some people just wanna see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear

Riskysports wrote:

The Saint wrote:It's only recently moved on to Gatland bickering from the previous Wales bashing. Yes, I am bored of it though.

Well actually there was very little Welsh bashing and I wish people would stop throwing that in our faces every time we have a discussion

Most of the initial converstaions were about Stevens

Then Farrell

Then the captaincy

They Robshaw and Brown

Very little Welsh bashing there

So please stop throwing it in our face

Grrrrr

Throw what in your face, the truth? Preceding your list was:

Wales have lost 8 tests to Australia.

Wales can't beat the SH.

Warburton is a rubbish captain.

Gethin Jenkins is rubbish in spite of all he has achieved because he's on the bench for some Barbarians team in the South of France.

Phillips is slow in the head, at passing and rubbish.

Gatland is the worst coach the Lions have had.

You see.

spoilt the ending for the rest of us

RubyGuby wrote:Some people just wanna see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear

Everyone does. It's called being human Ruby

Scarpia wrote:I've found this, ""We trained with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before. Some of the Welsh boys hadn't experienced that for a few months as well. It reminded people of what the expectations are."

Not quite the same thing as "not coached properly" is it?

It's not the same thing. Different words obviously. Pretty clear implication and meaning though.

There's just no need to be saying that sort of thing. I can't think of a single positive outcome. All it serves to do is annoy fans, coaches and players from Scotland, Ireland and England.

Gatland is a fine head coach, and I fully support his appointment. But that is a poor piece of PR right there.

The Saint wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

The Saint wrote:It's only recently moved on to Gatland bickering from the previous Wales bashing. Yes, I am bored of it though.

Well actually there was very little Welsh bashing and I wish people would stop throwing that in our faces every time we have a discussion

Most of the initial converstaions were about Stevens

Then Farrell

Then the captaincy

They Robshaw and Brown

Very little Welsh bashing there

So please stop throwing it in our face

Grrrrr

Throw what in your face, the truth? Preceding your list was:

Wales have lost 8 tests to Australia.

Wales can't beat the SH.

Warburton is a rubbish captain.

Gethin Jenkins is rubbish in spite of all he has achieved because he's on the bench for some Barbarians team in the South of France.

Phillips is slow in the head, at passing and rubbish.

Gatland is the worst coach the Lions have had.

You see.

Saint, i do agree with what you say actualy.

He (Gatland) was in a very tetchy mood anyway during that interview...classic Gatland before a campaign actually. He gets very emotionally into things and begins to bite and snap for little real reason.

"How many times do I have to say 'No'" when questioned about Wilkinson again.

Emmm, for as long as you're Lions Coach, Gats, I'm afraid. You don't want to talk about it, old Wilko fans want to keep bringing it up - it's an interview. There'll be more of them.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scarpia wrote:I've found this, ""We trained with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before. Some of the Welsh boys hadn't experienced that for a few months as well. It reminded people of what the expectations are."

Not quite the same thing as "not coached properly" is it?

It's not the same thing. Different words obviously. Pretty clear implication and meaning though.

There's just no need to be saying that sort of thing. I can't think of a single positive outcome. All it serves to do is annoy fans, coaches and players from Scotland, Ireland and England.

Gatland is a fine head coach, and I fully support his appointment. But that is a poor piece of PR right there.

It's not PR at all though thats the point, we all moan when Football/rugby coaches keep regurgetating the same tired old cliches, then when one constantly just says what he see's and how it is he is dumb for his lack of media training etc...

I for one think it's a breathe of fresh air, rather than hear...

'Ye the boys are going well'

'All the players are immensely fit and conditioned'

'The rest of the squad have slotted in nicely to the welsh regime I'm employing'

yawn...

His job right now is to get the best from this Lions squad. If you feel that having a dig at the coaching regime of Scotland, Ireland and England (how will Farrell and Rowntree feel about that quote?) is the best way for Gatland to achieve that outcome, then you are smoking something illegal.

This is so absolutely typical. Gatland makes a clear blunder, gets rightly criticised, and some Welsh fans feel the need to defend him as if the whole world is against them.

I'm not against Gatland at all. His coaching record is superb and he is head and shoulders the best man for the job. But this quote was the wrong thing to say. Has anyone got a sensible suggestion as to how this sort of thing helps the Lions??

Scarpia wrote:I've found this, ""We trained with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before. Some of the Welsh boys hadn't experienced that for a few months as well. It reminded people of what the expectations are."

Not quite the same thing as "not coached properly" is it?

Yes, you're right. However, imagine what the reaction would have been if Woodward had said the same in 2005, substituting "English" for "Welsh".

I don't think for a moment that Gatland intended to have a sly dig, any more than Warburton did when he seemed to talk about his Welsh team mates before mentioning the others. They just haven't got into the rhythm of speaking about the Lions. In Warburton's case, that's understandable and forgiveable. He might want to choose his words a little more carefully in the future. In Gatland's case, he should be a bit more savvy because he's had the post for a while now. The last Lions tour went very well as far as bonding goes but you can't take that for granted, as we've seen before.

To begin with I thought that Gatland was an idiot for saying that but the more i think about it the more i think he may be up to something.

The other countries involved in the Lions will see what he said as a dig at them and their performance/fitness levels. They will see the only way to shove it in his face is by outperforming the wales players. So will lead to better training sessions and better performances, in theory of course.

It could just as easily lead everyone else to think that gatland sees this as another wales tour as they are so obviously better than everyone else etc etc.

Or the 7 or so players there who were not involved in the double championship of the last 2 years weren't up to scratch as the welsh players weren't, that everybody has goals and peak performance times in their schedule and noone anticipates a lions tour and therefore hasn't adapted a training regime to include peaking for the lions, they have all been uninvolved with any finals and therefore are all a touch out of touch with international standards, and the non welsh are out of touch with what Gatland perceives as his international standards.

Lets be real he's just made a RWC semi and won the 6N twice in a row off the back of his superior conitioning regime, and with what everyone perceives as a lot of limite players!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scarpia wrote:I've found this, ""We trained with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before. Some of the Welsh boys hadn't experienced that for a few months as well. It reminded people of what the expectations are."

Not quite the same thing as "not coached properly" is it?

It's not the same thing. Different words obviously. Pretty clear implication and meaning though.

There's just no need to be saying that sort of thing. I can't think of a single positive outcome. All it serves to do is annoy fans, coaches and players from Scotland, Ireland and England.

Gatland is a fine head coach, and I fully support his appointment. But that is a poor piece of PR right there.

I think what Gatland is eluding to is Wales' training methods, which I believe they may be employing here. They've been doing it for a while, and were doing it in Poland too - very short, sharp, high intensity sessions for 30-45 mins, rather than training for a few hours at a time. And then in the ice baths and cryo chambers.

Not all nations train the same way, some do the longer, slower, more traditional way. They all have their own conditioning coaches (teams of), most of who are doctors in their own right and bring their own experimental ways to national squad training. Therefore, if they're following Wales-type training sessions (perhaps the Wales conditioning coaches are there?) then it is perfectly feasible that they trained "with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before", because they may be used to different approaches to training. However, some fans are interrogating the media reports looking for any way to twist Gatland's words to make them sound divisive. I mean, why would he do that? He wouldn't do it on purpose. So, assuming that he may have meant the above then this is another example of people trying to stick the knife in before the squad has even left these shores.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Or the 7 or so players there who were not involved in the double championship of the last 2 years weren't up to scratch as the welsh players weren't, that everybody has goals and peak performance times in their schedule and noone anticipates a lions tour and therefore hasn't adapted a training regime to include peaking for the lions, they have all been uninvolved with any finals and therefore are all a touch out of touch with international standards, and the non welsh are out of touch with what Gatland perceives as his international standards.

Lets be real he's just made a RWC semi and won the 6N twice in a row off the back of his superior conitioning regime, and with what everyone perceives as a lot of limite players!

He's done great work on conditioning and uses it almost as a gameday tactic to be honest. Nothing wrong with that. I've been asking and bellyaching and moaning about Ireland adopting a similar conditioning programme for a good few years now. You know when you've hit a perfectly conitioned machine and Ireland have been hit with perfectly conditioned Wales more than enough for me to pick up on the message.

But that's what I've been saying. It's not exactly a secret Gatland. The secret is out long ago. All sides that meet Wales know that a big slice of their prowess is that ability to hit, hit, hit and hit again at pace for most of the 80 minutes. That takes some well conditioned lungs to achieve not just skill levels alone.

But we know that, Gatland. No need to remind us. And the players from England, Ireland and Scotland knew it too. They might have been breathless after sessions but not surprised or shocked by those demands.

In some respects I think he's talking more to Australian media than our own localised media. I think he's started his propaganda campaign. I think he's trying to sow seeds of slight doubt in the minds of Aussies or even perhaps get them obsessing about conditioning levels themselves; anything to keep them attentive to what he's saying so that he can throw in a few red-herrings too.

He'd just want to be very careful about bluffing the Aussies and he'll need to back up everything he says in conditioning terms or the Aussie media will pick the flesh from his bones. He can put too much pressure on his players at times with his pre-war words.

Fly, I just think someone asked him how training was going and he was just being honest and said that some players were struggling (because the methods were new to them - if they're using wales' methods) and that some of the Wales boys were struggling too because it's been a few months since they did them too.

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Or the 7 or so players there who were not involved in the double championship of the last 2 years weren't up to scratch as the welsh players weren't, that everybody has goals and peak performance times in their schedule and noone anticipates a lions tour and therefore hasn't adapted a training regime to include peaking for the lions, they have all been uninvolved with any finals and therefore are all a touch out of touch with international standards, and the non welsh are out of touch with what Gatland perceives as his international standards.

Lets be real he's just made a RWC semi and won the 6N twice in a row off the back of his superior conitioning regime, and with what everyone perceives as a lot of limite players!

He's done great work on conditioning and uses it almost as a gameday tactic to be honest. Nothing wrong with that. I've been asking and bellyaching and moaning about Ireland adopting a similar conditioning programme for a good few years now. You know when you've hit a perfectly conitioned machine and Ireland have been hit with perfectly conditioned Wales more than enough for me to pick up on the message.

But that's what I've been saying. It's not exactly a secret Gatland. The secret is out long ago. All sides that meet Wales know that a big slice of their prowess is that ability to hit, hit, hit and hit again at pace for most of the 80 minutes. That takes some well conditioned lungs to achieve not just skill levels alone.

But we know that, Gatland. No need to remind us. And the players from England, Ireland and Scotland knew it too. They might have been breathless after sessions but not surprised or shocked by those demands.

In some respects I think he's talking more to Australian media than our own localised media. I think he's started his propaganda campaign. I think he's trying to sow seeds of slight doubt in the minds of Aussies or even perhaps get them obsessing about conditioning levels themselves; anything to keep them attentive to what he's saying so that he can throw in a few red-herrings too.

He'd just want to be very careful about bluffing the Aussies and he'll need to back up everything he says in conditioning terms or the Aussie media will pick the flesh from his bones. He can put too much pressure on his players at times with his pre-war words.

Have to agree totally fly, he may be starting the process, but also bare in mind what he said about the non welah he also said about the welsh boys, that they needed to be 'reminded' so he is essence saying the whole squad isn't quite there. Not only is this saying to Aus that the welsh conditioning levels would be surpassed, but it also motivates the squad mambers there who are falling short and the ones who are not there yet who will think they have an edge.

Maybe I underestimated him in saying he was just calling it like it is!

That said the conditioning propoganda was always pretty see through, well IMHO anyway, and numerous other coaches have adopted it, none so unsuccesfully as Phil Davies of the Blues. Pre season talk was all about the Blues having 8 new strength and conitioners on site, despite 6 being voluntary students and having no time with the first team, plus the number of conditioners matters not a jot, 1 great conditioner can deligate his excellent regime/orders to monkeys to impliment.

Ps aren't the conditioning team English predominantly?

Adam Beard is the head of Lions conditioning Bluesman. He's the Wales head conditioning guy too.

Is Wales' recent 'success' built on superior conditioning? Can't say I noticed it in the several games they've played against us the last year or so.

I thought it was more down to discovering some oversized players with foreign DNA and dusting off Woodward's decade old straight up the middle gameplan.

mzan wrote:Is Wales' recent 'success' built on superior conditioning? Can't say I noticed it in the several games they've played against us the last year or so.

I thought it was more down to discovering some oversized players with foreign DNA and dusting off Woodward's decade old straight up the middle gameplan.

You don't see it. I certainly do. To say it's all down to conditioning is to insult Welsh players. But their methods do give them an extra weapon in sustaining their gameplan for longer (when it gets up to speed!) and it also helps with alertness and skill levels lasting longer in an 80 minute game. Exhaustion doesn't just hit the legs, it hits the brain.
England were run off their feet in the 6N

Griff wrote:Adam Beard is the head of Lions conditioning Bluesman. He's the Wales head conditioning guy too.

preparing to have him kid-napped as you speak, Griff