Anyone else bored with the Gatland bashing and bickering?

First topic message reminder :

I just wondered whether I am the only one who thinks it is time for everyone to stop whinging about Gatland (who were the other options for coach?), his tactics (lots of assumptions are being made), his squad selections (generally sound), etc and get behind the Lions.

does everyone really think gats will coach the same rugby wales play....i honestly think we need to remember that there are less than half welsh players in the squad and farrell and rowntree will have a big impact on coaching

100%beefy wrote:does everyone really think gats will coach the same rugby wales play....i honestly think we need to remember that there are less than half welsh players in the squad and farrell and rowntree will have a big impact on coaching

I think some aspects will be similar, others wont. Defence and Fitness will be paramount.

100%beefy wrote:does everyone really think gats will coach the same rugby wales play....i honestly think we need to remember that there are less than half welsh players in the squad and farrell and rowntree will have a big impact on coaching

I think most of us are expecting the backline to play largely like Wales - using Roberts and the big wingers as power carriers to draw the defence into the midfield rather than utilising skill and guile to put players in space. I can accept the argument that we simply don't have many options for the 12 jersey that would allow executing a different game plan (Scott has only played 1 season, 12trees only a couple of games at international level), but it does concern me that a to date unsuccessful strategy is going to be repeated.

I'm not trying to sugar coat the Wales losses (honest!), but three of the losses were down to stupid penalties in the last few minutes or a break away try from Australia's own try line. What I mean is that the strategy was successful enough to get us plenty of points, score plenty of tries, get us in the winning position with minutes left. Stupidity in giving away a penalty by pulling down the maul (e.g. Hibbard) is not the fault of the strategy, or a slip in defense allowing a length of the field try.

I know people will see this as ifs and buts, and maybe I am sugar coating it a bit, but in general the strategy of the bish bosh that people talk about has been good enough to very nearly win on those 3 occasions, and only the brain fart of an individual has let the get away. It's not like the strategy led to drubbings (OK maybe in the 3rd place world cup playoff!). What's to say that that strategy will not be good enough to get our noses in front in 3 tests again this time? But, the added quality and depth of picking from 4 nations may help us to keep in front until the final whistle. There'll be no inexperience really in this team by the looks of the squad picked, so less likelihood of individual mistakes throwing the game away (although is possible of course).

Griff wrote:... less likelihood of individual mistakes throwing the game away...

After all, when have individual errors ever turned a Lions series? Well, I suppose there was Campese in 1989...and that last minute penalty in 1993...and Wilko's intercept pass in 2001...and O'Gara in 2009.....

Griff wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:mzan

You have hit my gripe with Gatland pretty much on the head. From his squad selection it would appear that we have plan A, which if that doesn't work will be replaced by plan A.

I would love to see a bit of adventure and risk taking and make it a spectacle, but I do fear that this is unlikely with the squad he's selected.

Who would you and mzan have picked for the lions instead if you were Gatland, in order to have a plan B? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely interested. Because, for all of the bickering from the B&I fans on this forum it is only maybe 2 or 3 players in total that we have disagreement about being picked. I think the vast majority of the 37 (is that the number?) are generally agreed with. Just wondering what changes you would have made from those left behind?

I would definitely have taken Matt Scott to give a footballing option in midfield. We have Roberts (bosh) Davies (bosh, albeit with a bit more finesse than Roberts) and Tuilagi (bosh). BOD provides some intelligence in there, but if he gets a knock we have route one and that is it. I don't see bashing it up working against Australia and would have liked to have seen a ball player in there. I would also have taken Laidlaw as 3rd choice 9/10, and left Murray at home. I'd also have taken Christian Wade.

I just feel that gives you options. You can go bosh to start off and then have players like Scott and Wade on the bench to bring on as the game breaks up late on. As an example, if we start with Roberts and Tuilagi in the centre and it's not working, I don't see bringing on Davies as likely to work as he is a similar style of player.

Davies has vision - Roberts and Tuilagi are blinkered - Hopefully BOD will be a first choice centre

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Griff wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:mzan

You have hit my gripe with Gatland pretty much on the head. From his squad selection it would appear that we have plan A, which if that doesn't work will be replaced by plan A.

I would love to see a bit of adventure and risk taking and make it a spectacle, but I do fear that this is unlikely with the squad he's selected.

Who would you and mzan have picked for the lions instead if you were Gatland, in order to have a plan B? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely interested. Because, for all of the bickering from the B&I fans on this forum it is only maybe 2 or 3 players in total that we have disagreement about being picked. I think the vast majority of the 37 (is that the number?) are generally agreed with. Just wondering what changes you would have made from those left behind?

I would definitely have taken Matt Scott to give a footballing option in midfield. We have Roberts (bosh) Davies (bosh, albeit with a bit more finesse than Roberts) and Tuilagi (bosh). BOD provides some intelligence in there, but if he gets a knock we have route one and that is it. I don't see bashing it up working against Australia and would have liked to have seen a ball player in there. I would also have taken Laidlaw as 3rd choice 9/10, and left Murray at home. I'd also have taken Christian Wade.

I just feel that gives you options. You can go bosh to start off and then have players like Scott and Wade on the bench to bring on as the game breaks up late on. As an example, if we start with Roberts and Tuilagi in the centre and it's not working, I don't see bringing on Davies as likely to work as he is a similar style of player.

Can't really disagree with much of that, although I would say that Jonathan Davies can run lines as well as bosh. The fact he hasn't been of late is due to being off form so there's an argument that he shouldn't have travelled at all due to this, but he hits gaps as well as hitting men when paying well.

Matt Scott I haven't seen enough of to be honest but I hear good things about him so yes maybe he should have got the call.

Wade is certainly exciting, but is it a bit of a risk as he hasn't played much at this level? Certainly they could have taken him and seen how he got on in the warm up games.

dummy_half wrote:

100%beefy wrote:does everyone really think gats will coach the same rugby wales play....i honestly think we need to remember that there are less than half welsh players in the squad and farrell and rowntree will have a big impact on coaching

I think most of us are expecting the backline to play largely like Wales - using Roberts and the big wingers as power carriers to draw the defence into the midfield rather than utilising skill and guile to put players in space. I can accept the argument that we simply don't have many options for the 12 jersey that would allow executing a different game plan (Scott has only played 1 season, 12trees only a couple of games at international level), but it does concern me that a to date unsuccessful strategy is going to be repeated.

I thought Wales used some fantastic skills and guile to score two tries in their last game, for example.

[quote="Griff"][quote="Ozzy3213"][quote="Griff"]

Ozzy3213 wrote:mzan


Can't really disagree with much of that, although I would say that Jonathan Davies can run lines as well as bosh. The fact he hasn't been of late is due to being off form so there's an argument that he shouldn't have travelled at all due to this, but he hits gaps as well as hitting men when paying well.

Matt Scott I haven't seen enough of to be honest but I hear good things about him so yes maybe he should have got the call.

Off Form!
Pre 6Ns Davies was most certainly the form centre in Wales, and Post 6Ns has scored 3 tries in 5 games, played full 80 minutes in all the Scarlets matches, and I believe was close to MOM in all of them..... if that's off-form then I can't wait to see him on song. In fact he is probably the only centre who is on peak form, Roberts and Tualagi looking lethargic and BOD injured so before and after 6Ns criteria he was the one name Mr G could have pencilled in first. He is a much better footballer that many give him credit, and ditto to his passing game, also he has a distinct advantage of having a sublime left peg. I would play him 12 with no hesitation as when Regan King had the 13 shirt Davies was an awesome inside centre (playing left-right instead if inside-outside).

Matt Scott is a very talented footballer, played most of his career as a 10, clever boy on and off the field, with a awareness about him that we haven't seen in Scotland for a long time, however he hasn't that burst of speed that Davies/Tualagi/BOD has and IMHO hence you can discount him at 13, and deffo needed another season before he could raise his hand up ahead of Davies/Roberts or BOD at 12.

I am pleased in is going on the summer SA tournament instead of on the Lions tour.

maestegmafia wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

100%beefy wrote:does everyone really think gats will coach the same rugby wales play....i honestly think we need to remember that there are less than half welsh players in the squad and farrell and rowntree will have a big impact on coaching

I think most of us are expecting the backline to play largely like Wales - using Roberts and the big wingers as power carriers to draw the defence into the midfield rather than utilising skill and guile to put players in space. I can accept the argument that we simply don't have many options for the 12 jersey that would allow executing a different game plan (Scott has only played 1 season, 12trees only a couple of games at international level), but it does concern me that a to date unsuccessful strategy is going to be repeated.

I thought Wales used some fantastic skills and guile to score two tries in their last game, for example.

Yes, but it mostly came from your openside flanker (and the guile involved in bribing Walsh )

maestegmafia wrote:I thought Wales used some fantastic skills and guile to score two tries in their last game, for example.

If the Lions were playing England, we'd all be a lot more relaxed (albeit some of us would be horribly conflicted).

dummy_half wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

100%beefy wrote:does everyone really think gats will coach the same rugby wales play....i honestly think we need to remember that there are less than half welsh players in the squad and farrell and rowntree will have a big impact on coaching

I think most of us are expecting the backline to play largely like Wales - using Roberts and the big wingers as power carriers to draw the defence into the midfield rather than utilising skill and guile to put players in space. I can accept the argument that we simply don't have many options for the 12 jersey that would allow executing a different game plan (Scott has only played 1 season, 12trees only a couple of games at international level), but it does concern me that a to date unsuccessful strategy is going to be repeated.

I thought Wales used some fantastic skills and guile to score two tries in their last game, for example.

Yes, but it mostly came from your openside flanker (and the guile involved in bribing Walsh )

That Welsh backrow was very instrumental, though so were many players. None of those tries were individual efforts, plenty of passing and good skills in the build up.

Unfortunately a few missed opportunities too.

Those players except Biggar are Lions should bode well when a few top players from the other home nations are added too.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/british-irish-lions-tour-2013-4013818

Lots of good reasoned points made here.

Lack of utility backs in the Lions.

Lack of creativity.

Always interesting to see how others view the squad selection.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/british-irish-lions-tour-2013-4013818

Lots of good reasoned points made here.

Lack of utility backs in the Lions.

Lack of creativity.

Always interesting to see how others view the squad selection.

Do you mean "others" as other than yourself? Or including yourself?

dummy_half wrote:

Yes, but it mostly came from your openside flanker (and the guile involved in bribing Walsh )

Don't forget we also bribed all of your team to be rubbish - didn't take much either!

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/british-irish-lions-tour-2013-4013818

Lots of good reasoned points made here.

Lack of utility backs in the Lions.

Lack of creativity.

Always interesting to see how others view the squad selection.

Do you mean "others" as other than yourself? Or including yourself?

Others I meant as Lions opponents in this case an Australian & I suspect you knew that all along. I just happened to agree with him.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/british-irish-lions-tour-2013-4013818

Lots of good reasoned points made here.

Lack of utility backs in the Lions.

Lack of creativity.

Always interesting to see how others view the squad selection.

Do you mean "others" as other than yourself? Or including yourself?

Others I meant as Lions opponents in this case an Australian & I suspect you knew that all along. I just happened to agree with him.

So you meant you agree with the Australian journalists points.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/british-irish-lions-tour-2013-4013818

Lots of good reasoned points made here.

Lack of utility backs in the Lions.

Lack of creativity.

Always interesting to see how others view the squad selection.

it's hard to disagree with it however i don't expect a whitewash....what is vital is that we win the first test, i absolutely believe had we won the first test in 09 we would have won the series. right now because of the squad make up the monkey on our backs seems to be how many times 'wales' have lost to oz and that's fair enough....if the lions can just get that first win - i don't care how- then all that will be forgotten

100%beefy wrote:....what is vital is that we win the first test...

Everyone says that, but the last two Lions tours to Australia were won by the team which lost the first Test.

Lions will lose if they go with Wales' style of p..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Well done Trev. Try adding something that isn't repeated every other day.

No one has seen this squad play but everyone is predicting the outcome.

I think a number of posters should watch some rugby before making presumptions.

maestegmafia wrote:...everyone is predicting the outcome...

That's not a fair description of most of the discussion here.

maestegmafia wrote:No one has seen this squad play but everyone is predicting the outcome.

I think a number of posters should watch some rugby before making presumptions.

No-one has seen this squad play as a team/squad, but everyone has seen every player in the squad play at some point, and have witnessed the coach's work with other teams. Therefore people are perfectly capable of forming some opinions on how things might go. If your argument is that we need to see some rugby on the tour before forming an opinion and discussing it, then we may as well shut the forum down for a couple of weeks, as it's going be pretty quiet on here if we're only allowed to discuss things once the action starts.

RubyGuby wrote:Davies has vision - Roberts and Tuilagi are blinkered - Hopefully BOD will be a first choice centre

Maybe he does have vision.. but he has a horrific passing game for a 13.