Anyone else bored with the Gatland bashing and bickering?

First topic message reminder :

I just wondered whether I am the only one who thinks it is time for everyone to stop whinging about Gatland (who were the other options for coach?), his tactics (lots of assumptions are being made), his squad selections (generally sound), etc and get behind the Lions.

anyway, there are only two Irish lads there at present so he wasn't talking about us anyway

SecretFly wrote:

mzan wrote:Is Wales' recent 'success' built on superior conditioning? Can't say I noticed it in the several games they've played against us the last year or so.

I thought it was more down to discovering some oversized players with foreign DNA and dusting off Woodward's decade old straight up the middle gameplan.

You don't see it. I certainly do. To say it's all down to conditioning is to insult Welsh players. But their methods do give them an extra weapon in sustaining their gameplan for longer (when it gets up to speed!) and it also helps with alertness and skill levels lasting longer in an 80 minute game. Exhaustion doesn't just hit the legs, it hits the brain.
England were run off their feet in the 6N

I'd say the conditioning levels certainly make up for certain flaws in games, but as you say the higher conditioned you are doesn't mean the longer you can go for, it's the quality performance at which you can attain and sustain in the 40 minutes.

Remember the human body can go for 24hours, 40 minutes is a tiny little window for performance, not only do higher conditioned players play at a higher intensity for longer, they are able to think clearer, perform basic motor skills and react far more effeiciently for the 40 minutes.

I had no idea Beard was the conditioner, it makes sense really, but I was told the English lads were involved and mustve assumed they were in charge following Gatlands recomendations. That said anyone involved with Beard and Gats this tour is going to learn a little insight into what they do well.

Griff wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scarpia wrote:I've found this, ""We trained with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before. Some of the Welsh boys hadn't experienced that for a few months as well. It reminded people of what the expectations are."

Not quite the same thing as "not coached properly" is it?

It's not the same thing. Different words obviously. Pretty clear implication and meaning though.

There's just no need to be saying that sort of thing. I can't think of a single positive outcome. All it serves to do is annoy fans, coaches and players from Scotland, Ireland and England.

Gatland is a fine head coach, and I fully support his appointment. But that is a poor piece of PR right there.

I think what Gatland is eluding to is Wales' training methods, which I believe they may be employing here. They've been doing it for a while, and were doing it in Poland too - very short, sharp, high intensity sessions for 30-45 mins, rather than training for a few hours at a time. And then in the ice baths and cryo chambers.

Not all nations train the same way, some do the longer, slower, more traditional way. They all have their own conditioning coaches (teams of), most of who are doctors in their own right and bring their own experimental ways to national squad training. Therefore, if they're following Wales-type training sessions (perhaps the Wales conditioning coaches are there?) then it is perfectly feasible that they trained "with a level of intensity that some of the players from other countries hadn't experienced before", because they may be used to different approaches to training. However, some fans are interrogating the media reports looking for any way to twist Gatland's words to make them sound divisive. I mean, why would he do that? He wouldn't do it on purpose. So, assuming that he may have meant the above then this is another example of people trying to stick the knife in before the squad has even left these shores.

Good post Griff.

Griff - you don't need to twist those words, they draw a very clear implication.

You may be right in that he didn't mean it in that way, your explanation makes perfect sense, but it's still a silly thing to say.

I bear Gatland zero ill will, he's a superb coach, but I worry about the Aussie media, and Gatland's ability to cope with it. His weakness is his foot in mouth - someone (not Alistair Campbell!) needs to be in his ear on these matters.

Frankly I'm bored about the whole Lions debate. I just want to see the rugby now. June can't come soon enough. It was fun for a while but it's a bit like looking at lewd pictures sent by mates on what's app. They have their novelty value but after a while you just feel like playing with the real thing.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Frankly I'm bored about the whole Lions debate. I just want to see the rugby now. June can't come soon enough. It was fun for a while but it's a bit like looking at lewd pictures sent by mates on what's app. They have their novelty value but after a while you just feel like playing with the real thing.

Perfect analogy!

Do you want me to forward them to you? Is that what you're saying Fes?

Have you tried looking at them upside down and through a mirror? That might extend their value for a few more miliseconds.

The Saint wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

The Saint wrote:It's only recently moved on to Gatland bickering from the previous Wales bashing. Yes, I am bored of it though.

Well actually there was very little Welsh bashing and I wish people would stop throwing that in our faces every time we have a discussion

Most of the initial converstaions were about Stevens

Then Farrell

Then the captaincy

They Robshaw and Brown

Very little Welsh bashing there

So please stop throwing it in our face

Grrrrr

Throw what in your face, the truth? Preceding your list was:

Wales have lost 8 tests to Australia.

Wales can't beat the SH.

Warburton is a rubbish captain.

Gethin Jenkins is rubbish in spite of all he has achieved because he's on the bench for some Barbarians team in the South of France.

Phillips is slow in the head, at passing and rubbish.

Gatland is the worst coach the Lions have had.

You see.

That is not Welsh bashing that is talking about certain oppointments and game plans.

Wales have lost 8 tests to Australia.

A valid point if we are talking tactics, is it the right tactic to play the Gatland way, with big runners and less 'magic feet' - valid argument not Welsh bashing

Wales can't beat the SH. - Havn't not can not. Is there a missing ingredient to the tactic. See above

Warburton is a rubbish captain. - Not rubbish, but maybe not the best choice. He struggled with Captaincy before - a valid discussion

Gethin Jenkins is rubbish in spite of all he has achieved because he's on the bench for some Barbarians team in the South of France. - Genkins is not rubbish, but not in the best of form. He is also being kept from starting with a potential option, so valid to question that

Phillips is slow in the head, at passing and rubbish. - Most of thoes comments are based on his position of scrum half - he is slower than most scrum half to get the ball out, and takes into into contact more that I would like - again goes back to tactics - is he the right / best choice - a valid discussion

Gatland is the worst coach the Lions have had. - Not sure I have heard anyone say that - so not worth refuting



See most of these are all valid discussions and not anti Welsh

No all these Lions threads still bore me Secret. I understand them but I don't have to like them. I've simply reached saturation point.

And yes I'm aware of the irony of posting on one. But if you don't tell the person playing music on his phone with no earphones that his execrable taste in music is bugging you he might interpret your silence as support for his behavior.

You're not exactly alone on your bored island kia. Look around the rock over there towards the shingle beach and you'll find plenty of us

We're all waiting for some real rugby. Not just Lions though.

these lions threads exist because we all excited (except New Zealand south Africa and France )waiting for the games to start . oh and prob Scotland

SecretFly wrote:You're not exactly alone on your bored island kia. Look around the rock over there towards the shingle beach and you'll find plenty of us

We're all waiting for some real rugby. Not just Lions though.

Oh!

We are very excited too.

An excuse to AM beer never one to miss

Riskysports wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

The Saint wrote:It's only recently moved on to Gatland bickering from the previous Wales bashing. Yes, I am bored of it though.

Well actually there was very little Welsh bashing and I wish people would stop throwing that in our faces every time we have a discussion

Most of the initial converstaions were about Stevens

Then Farrell

Then the captaincy

They Robshaw and Brown

Very little Welsh bashing there

So please stop throwing it in our face

Grrrrr

Throw what in your face, the truth? Preceding your list was:

Wales have lost 8 tests to Australia.

Wales can't beat the SH.

Warburton is a rubbish captain.

Gethin Jenkins is rubbish in spite of all he has achieved because he's on the bench for some Barbarians team in the South of France.

Phillips is slow in the head, at passing and rubbish.

Gatland is the worst coach the Lions have had.

You see.

That is not Welsh bashing that is talking about certain oppointments and game plans.

Wales have lost 8 tests to Australia.

A valid point if we are talking tactics, is it the right tactic to play the Gatland way, with big runners and less 'magic feet' - valid argument not Welsh bashing

Wales can't beat the SH. - Havn't not can not. Is there a missing ingredient to the tactic. See above

Warburton is a rubbish captain. - Not rubbish, but maybe not the best choice. He struggled with Captaincy before - a valid discussion

Gethin Jenkins is rubbish in spite of all he has achieved because he's on the bench for some Barbarians team in the South of France. - Genkins is not rubbish, but not in the best of form. He is also being kept from starting with a potential option, so valid to question that

Phillips is slow in the head, at passing and rubbish. - Most of thoes comments are based on his position of scrum half - he is slower than most scrum half to get the ball out, and takes into into contact more that I would like - again goes back to tactics - is he the right / best choice - a valid discussion

Gatland is the worst coach the Lions have had. - Not sure I have heard anyone say that - so not worth refuting



See most of these are all valid discussions and not anti Welsh

Nothing valid about it. All statements used as a stick to beat Wales. Must be a jealousy thing ...

I'm not surprised people are questioning Gatland, he doesn't seem to have given himself much scope outside of a gameplan that has seen Wales lose 7 games in a row against us in the last 3 years, and that has seen the superior Boks only win twice (both with home advantage and at altitude) from 8 games in the same time period.

You can look at that as being true conviction or stubbornness. Personally I think it's the latter and I see this tour being the nail in the coffin of him ever getting the NZ job he's ultimately after.

Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

[quote="maestegmafia"]Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.[/quot e] extremely well put maest. people talk like if we use to beat Australia all the time and since gats took over we can't . i think its just a mental issue with us against the sh teams at the moment def not being out played by them . lions doing well should help the Welsh lads taking part to abolish that mindset .

In defence of Risky, as much of the criticism of Jenkins and Phillips has come from Wales fans as from the rest of us.

Warburton as captain? Did well in the RWC (the red card in the SF was a combination of bad luck and Rolland being the only ref to actually apply the IRB directive to the letter), but has been more questionable recently to the extent that he lost the Wales captaincy during this year's 6Ns. Clearly Gatland is a bigger fan than Howley is of SW as a captain. Wouldn't have been my choice (O'Connell or BOD for preference), but can understand why Gatland went for the option he knows best.

Wales record against Australia is relevant to these discussions because we have a Wales-dominated Lions squad, led by their coach and the expectation that the tactics will be fundamentally similar to those Wales have applied throughout their string of defeats to Australia.

Obviously, Gatland MAY have a trick or two up his sleeve and have developed a more expansive gameplan (actually, the mobility of the forwards he's selected may be consistent with that, but the apparent lack of creativity in midfield goes against this), and even if the idea is to just keep boshing away the Lions selection should (at least in theory) provide a stronger squad of players than Wales on their own, so might be sufficient to change the results (and noting that Wales have been close to Aus in a couple of the more recent losses).

jimmyinthewell68 wrote: lions doing well should help the Welsh lads taking part to abolish that mindset .

It might - in fact, I hope it does - but it has never worked that way with any other Lions tour. If Home Union teams weren't beating the Lions opponents before the tour, then they didn't start beating them afterwards.

Rugby Fan wrote:

jimmyinthewell68 wrote: lions doing well should help the Welsh lads taking part to abolish that mindset .

It might - in fact, I hope it does - but it has never worked that way with any other Lions tour. If Home Union teams weren't beating the Lions opponents before the tour, then they didn't start beating them afterwards.

good point but the last time lions won a series the Welsh didnt have a good team . we got the players now but still not the winning attitude playing sh teams .

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:good point but the last time lions won a series the Welsh didnt have a good team . we got the players now but still not the winning attitude playing sh teams .

Even when the Welsh made up the core of two winning Lions squads in the seventies, it didn't improve their record against the southern sides. There's a lot to enjoy about Lions tours, but there's no evidence for the idea that it helps any of the Home Union sides be more competitive against the Big 3. I've argued in a separate thread that it might actually do the opposite.

I don't think a winning attitude transfers easily across two different teams and concepts. Wales - like any of the Home Nations - will only build confidence when they start beating SH opposition on their own. That's how France do it, and that's how England eventually did it under Woodward. France don't take part in the Lions, and Woodward didn't gain anything from the 2001 series loss.

If the rumour that Kelly Brown isn't on the stand-by list is true then Gatland hasn't had nearly enough bashing.

Brown has played a hell of a lot better than Warburton this season, even at open-side. One of Sarries most consistent players in both the AP and Heineken as well as leading Scotland admirably during 6Ns.

SecretFly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Some people just wanna see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear

Everyone does. It's called being human Ruby

Not quite true there Mr Fly but I see where you're coming from

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

Wasn't Howley (now Lions attack coach) in charge of Wales for the other 5 losses?

RubyGuby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Some people just wanna see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear

Everyone does. It's called being human Ruby

Not quite true there Mr Fly but I see where you're coming from

Nope, it's absolutely ding dong true, Ruby. I've never met a perfect humanbeing in my life. (Thankfully!! - In theory they should be total bores!). Everone has bias and everyone has used it if they're more than a few weeks old. A baby cries because it prefers mother to hold it rather than gruff Dad - bias at an early age

Everyone does it of course - but not all the time unless your Clive Woodward - The key is to listen to the things that make you uncomfortable. My youngest lad always cried when his mother picked him up. He's 6 now and she's never forgiven him. The lad just knows where his prioroties lie.

Sin é wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

Wasn't Howley (now Lions attack coach) in charge of Wales for the other 5 losses?

Yep the same guy who coached Wales to a Six Nations championship win.

RubyGuby wrote:Everyone does it of course - but not all the time unless your Clive Woodward - The key is to listen to the things that make you uncomfortable. My youngest lad always cried when his mother picked him up. He's 6 now and she's never forgiven him. The lad just knows where his prioroties lie.

[quote] isn't your wife English ruby

Exactly Jimmy - but you should see her shout for Wales - it's amazing

maestegmafia wrote:

Sin é wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

Wasn't Howley (now Lions attack coach) in charge of Wales for the other 5 losses?

Yep the same guy who coached Wales to a Six Nations championship win.

.... with a loss against Ireland who have a very good record against Australia!

So who is going the one player from the present squad who is going to miss out against the Ba-bas - I'd bet it will be Conor Murray (the only scrumhalf who has a win over Wales and Australia in recent times)!

Sin

The Lions selectors could have chosen a lot of players from:

a) The team that had 30 points put on them in the last match
b) The team that you know who have beaten on 10 of the last 11 occasions
c) The team that finished bottom but one in the 6 Nations championship

Against all the odds the selector has gone with most of the team that reached the semi-finals of the RWC in 2011, won a GS in 2012 and yet another championship in 2013. Maybe he's just biased eh!

Sin é wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Sin é wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

Wasn't Howley (now Lions attack coach) in charge of Wales for the other 5 losses?

Yep the same guy who coached Wales to a Six Nations championship win.

.... with a loss against Ireland who have a very good record against Australia!

So who is going the one player from the present squad who is going to miss out against the Ba-bas - I'd bet it will be Conor Murray (the only scrumhalf who has a win over Wales and Australia in recent times)!

You do realise that is the reasoning of a moron

dragonbreath wrote:

Sin é wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Sin é wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

Wasn't Howley (now Lions attack coach) in charge of Wales for the other 5 losses?

Yep the same guy who coached Wales to a Six Nations championship win.

.... with a loss against Ireland who have a very good record against Australia!

So who is going the one player from the present squad who is going to miss out against the Ba-bas - I'd bet it will be Conor Murray (the only scrumhalf who has a win over Wales and Australia in recent times)!

You do realise that is the reasoning of a moron

Why does beating Wales come into being good in the lions squad? That really makes no sense.


I think this whole antagonism aimed at Wales and Welsh coaches is because we are on the pedestal, we have been the best team in Europe two years in a row and have contributed a larger majority to the Lions than anyone else

"I think this whole antagonism aimed at Wales and Welsh coaches is because we are on the pedestal"

To be fair, there is also a concern as a result of Wales having had such a poor autumn series. I appreciate that part of that was down to the injury position, particularly at lock, but also these guys still have to show they aren't flakey against SH opposition.

maestegmafia wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Sin é wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Sin é wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

Wasn't Howley (now Lions attack coach) in charge of Wales for the other 5 losses?

Yep the same guy who coached Wales to a Six Nations championship win.

.... with a loss against Ireland who have a very good record against Australia!

So who is going the one player from the present squad who is going to miss out against the Ba-bas - I'd bet it will be Conor Murray (the only scrumhalf who has a win over Wales and Australia in recent times)!

You do realise that is the reasoning of a moron

Why does beating Wales come into being good in the lions squad? That really makes no sense.


I think this whole antagonism aimed at Wales and Welsh coaches is because we are on the pedestal, we have been the best team in Europe two years in a row and have contributed a larger majority to the Lions than anyone else

Christ it seems we've moved from Gatland to Wales bashing! I don't think that was the objective of this post

This thread is going along nicely.....clearly not many people are bored with the Gatland bashing and bickering!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Gatland is clearly the right man to lead the Lions and with only one or two exceptions (Rory Best and the inclusion of a 3rd fly half in particular), I think the squad is pretty much spot on.

Still, I am concerned about Gatland's ability to handle the press, and I do think the midfield options lack creativity, and the backs generally are short on footballing skills. Not a criticism of the Welsh at all, nor a criticism of Gatland. To pick better footballers would have been to ignore some form players, and players who have earned the right to be selected.

yes i think the real fun will start when gtaland and the oz press start locking horns

funnyExiledScot wrote: I do think the midfield options lack creativity, and the backs generally are short on footballing skills. Not a criticism of the Welsh at all, nor a criticism of Gatland. To pick better footballers would have been to ignore some form players, and players who have earned the right to be selected.

There isn't a huge variety to choose from modern centres have morphed into a homogeneous centre, if they are good or different they are quickly bought by Clermont Auvergne. There are a few inexperienced guys as you said but maybe considered not ready to be trusted. Shame England dropped Twelvetrees he looked like the type of lad who could of made a difference. Notice how england stopped scoring tries ones he left the frame???

maestegmafia wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote: I do think the midfield options lack creativity, and the backs generally are short on footballing skills. Not a criticism of the Welsh at all, nor a criticism of Gatland. To pick better footballers would have been to ignore some form players, and players who have earned the right to be selected.

There isn't a huge variety to choose from modern centres have morphed into a homogeneous centre, if they are good or different they are quickly bought by Clermont Auvergne. There are a few inexperienced guys as you said but maybe considered not ready to be trusted. Shame England dropped Twelvetrees he looked like the type of lad who could of made a difference. Notice how england stopped scoring tries ones he left the frame???

It is areal shame. The other major shortcoming of the squad selection is only one specialist 12 - Roberts who will set the tone for the way the backs will play & I assume will be picked at IC.
That is why I believe it will be bosh up the middle (power game).

What happens to the plan if Roberts gets injured? There will have to be a manufactured 12.

From the squad chosen I hope BOD goes 12 (not natural position but most creative back in squad) with Tuilagi outside. But I won't hold my breath.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote: I do think the midfield options lack creativity, and the backs generally are short on footballing skills. Not a criticism of the Welsh at all, nor a criticism of Gatland. To pick better footballers would have been to ignore some form players, and players who have earned the right to be selected.

There isn't a huge variety to choose from modern centres have morphed into a homogeneous centre, if they are good or different they are quickly bought by Clermont Auvergne. There are a few inexperienced guys as you said but maybe considered not ready to be trusted. Shame England dropped Twelvetrees he looked like the type of lad who could of made a difference. Notice how england stopped scoring tries ones he left the frame???

It is areal shame. The other major shortcoming of the squad selection is only one specialist 12 - Roberts who will set the tone for the way the backs will play & I assume will be picked at IC.
That is why I believe it will be bosh up the middle (power game).

What happens to the plan if Roberts gets injured? There will have to be a manufactured 12.

From the squad chosen I hope BOD goes 12 (not natural position but most creative back in squad) with Tuilagi outside. But I won't hold my breath.

Jonathan Davies has played plenty of inside centre, so thats not an issue. Davies at 12 with BOD outside him will be the best test partnership.

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

What I wrote wasn't a criticism about what Gatland has achieved in the NH, but what he's trying to make work down here. What beats one type of opponent doesn't necessarily beat another. He's loaded his squad in a direction (type of player, not nationality) that hasn't worked for Wales down here (whether he was present for all of them or not, the essence of the gameplan and the personnel directed by his deputy under his instruction were the same) and hasn't worked for the superior Boks either (when better exponents of a method can't make it work in a set of circumstances you should really look at a plan B).

Many here, up with you and neutral feel this is the wrong direction to go, but what compounds it is that he's put all his eggs in that basket, there is very little room for manoeuvre when that gameplan fails, and those facets combined look like they will lessen the series.

We enjoy the Lions' visit as much as you do, it's a great showcase for union worldwide and here where we have to compete with stronger placed codes. Unlike you however, we only get to be involved every 12 years and win or lose we want to cherrish that experience with suitable enjoyment of the spectacle. Unfortunately it's looking like it'll be a bit of a damb squib in the involving rugby stakes. Gatland is playing a safe and solid hand which might see some respectable results, but won't see him triumph (we've seen it all before from better sides and dealt with it), whereas not too much different, just a bit more of a gamble in certain areas would have opened the doors to give you more of a chance and made for more enjoyable encounters for the players and spectators.

mzan

You have hit my gripe with Gatland pretty much on the head. From his squad selection it would appear that we have plan A, which if that doesn't work will be replaced by plan A.

I would love to see a bit of adventure and risk taking and make it a spectacle, but I do fear that this is unlikely with the squad he's selected.

On jd2, yes, he's played 12 before, but he isn't a good footballer. His passing lets him down from time to time.

funnyExiledScot wrote:On jd2, yes, he's played 12 before, but he isn't a good footballer. His passing lets him down from time to time.

+1 there is a big difference between having played in a position & being a proficient international there.

Ozzy3213 wrote:mzan

You have hit my gripe with Gatland pretty much on the head. From his squad selection it would appear that we have plan A, which if that doesn't work will be replaced by plan A.

I would love to see a bit of adventure and risk taking and make it a spectacle, but I do fear that this is unlikely with the squad he's selected.

Who would you and mzan have picked for the lions instead if you were Gatland, in order to have a plan B? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely interested. Because, for all of the bickering from the B&I fans on this forum it is only maybe 2 or 3 players in total that we have disagreement about being picked. I think the vast majority of the 37 (is that the number?) are generally agreed with. Just wondering what changes you would have made from those left behind?

mzan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wales more famously took absolute pastings from the Aussies for the last thirty years, recently they have either drawn or been close surely that shows what a great job Gatland has done with Wales.

You can use seven loses in a row as an example if you want. (By the way he wasn't coaching Wales for five of those games, Howley was) or you can look at three six nations championships and a RWC semi final during his tenure since 2008.

For a small nation like Wales, in the modern International game we are doing very well.

What I wrote wasn't a criticism about what Gatland has achieved in the NH, but what he's trying to make work down here. What beats one type of opponent doesn't necessarily beat another. He's loaded his squad in a direction (type of player, not nationality) that hasn't worked for Wales down here (whether he was present for all of them or not, the essence of the gameplan and the personnel directed by his deputy under his instruction were the same) and hasn't worked for the superior Boks either (when better exponents of a method can't make it work in a set of circumstances you should really look at a plan B).

Many here, up with you and neutral feel this is the wrong direction to go, but what compounds it is that he's put all his eggs in that basket, there is very little room for manoeuvre when that gameplan fails, and those facets combined look like they will lessen the series.

We enjoy the Lions' visit as much as you do, it's a great showcase for union worldwide and here where we have to compete with stronger placed codes. Unlike you however, we only get to be involved every 12 years and win or lose we want to cherrish that experience with suitable enjoyment of the spectacle. Unfortunately it's looking like it'll be a bit of a damb squib in the involving rugby stakes. Gatland is playing a safe and solid hand which might see some respectable results, but won't see him triumph (we've seen it all before from better sides and dealt with it), whereas not too much different, just a bit more of a gamble in certain areas would have opened the doors to give you more of a chance and made for more enjoyable encounters for the players and spectators.

Ozzy3213 wrote:mzan

You have hit my gripe with Gatland pretty much on the head. From his squad selection it would appear that we have plan A, which if that doesn't work will be replaced by plan A.

I would love to see a bit of adventure and risk taking and make it a spectacle, but I do fear that this is unlikely with the squad he's selected.

What is the game plan?

From what I have seen of Gatlands Ireland, Wasps and Wales the game plan has changed and evolved as the game has, as the players changed. Some aspects remain with players that stick around others move and new ideas take their place as opportunities arose. You can't employ the same game plan with Kieth Wood, Jeremy Davidson and Eric Ellwood as you do with Dallaglio Howley and Alex King or Martyn Williams, Henson and Shane or lately with Biggar, Tipuric and Halfenny.

Look at what is at his disposal and what is achievable. Gatland has been around coaching at a top level for a long time now and he has changed game plans constantly.

The only common denominator is fitness and defence, two aspects that every coach drills into any ambitious team.

Griff wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:mzan

You have hit my gripe with Gatland pretty much on the head. From his squad selection it would appear that we have plan A, which if that doesn't work will be replaced by plan A.

I would love to see a bit of adventure and risk taking and make it a spectacle, but I do fear that this is unlikely with the squad he's selected.

Who would you and mzan have picked for the lions instead if you were Gatland, in order to have a plan B? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely interested. Because, for all of the bickering from the B&I fans on this forum it is only maybe 2 or 3 players in total that we have disagreement about being picked. I think the vast majority of the 37 (is that the number?) are generally agreed with. Just wondering what changes you would have made from those left behind?

I was manly upset about the omission of Best but i wont be surprised if he gets the call out. I would have liked to have seen twelvetrees, zebo, madigan as plan b players in the 37 man squad. I tend to agree that gatland wont have many ball playing players who could be selected in the second and third tests if things go pear shaped with biff bosh bash rugby..

maestegmafia wrote:...From what I have seen of Gatlands Ireland, Wasps and Wales the game plan has changed and evolved as the game has, as the players changed....

Not enough to beat Australia as much as his teams should have, though, and that's the nagging concern. Is Gatland a better coach than Andy Robinson, Martin Johnson and Brian Ashton? I think so. None of them managed to win a single Grand Slam, let alone two. However, they all have better records against Australia than Gatland. Robinson won once with England and twice with Scotland. Johnson beat Australia home and away. Ashton beat them at a World Cup. I doubt whether many Welsh supporters would argue England had better players on those occasions.