The shell of Rafa Nadal wins 6 out of the first 8 tournaments he enters, if Novak beats him at RG it will become the husk of a shell of Nadal

Simple Transition era. thumbsup 50% of prime Nadal is enough to mop almost everything today. Sorry

Those who claim that Nadal circa 05-08 is superior to the Nadal of the last couple of years may have a tough time actually marrying the facts to their beliefs. Nadal is on a tear, frankly looks as good as ever or close to it. But I would like to thank the poster who I quoted above for really exposing the hypocrisy of those who all but suggest we are in a weak era today, while at the same time some of the same people argued vociferously with me for months and even years that there are no weak eras, that eras are incomparable and that Nalby, Roddick, Safin, and Hewitt are as tough as any era if there is such a thing. At least now we see what is really behind all this talk about how Nadal is just a shell of himself, it is really a big up on Federer and an attempt to paint the current game and current stars as weak and in crisis. And if they don't like Djokovic or murray it doesn't hurt to take some of the shine off of their accomplishments as well. So ask yourselves when an unprecedented number of journalists and legends are calling the game strong as ever or a golden age how some learned posters come to the exact opposite conclusion. Although they won't use the exact terminology of "weak era" that would be too obvious wouldn't it, they take every opportunity to slag the current stars, the current game, and to try to diminish their accomplishments.

Here is my prediction if Novak beats Nadal, and even if it is an epic of monumental proportions going 9-7 or 8-6 in the fifth Nadal will go from the hottest player on tour the last 3 months to a washed up near has been hobbled and crippled by leg injuries.

Wilander and the other eurosport commentator are making some good points right now....this might be the strongest top five of all time but below number five this is easily the weakest chasing pack of all time....from five down to 100 these players are found wanting in so many ways.

Top 5? So Ferrer is one of the strongest top 5 players ever?

I think the top three (meaning Roger, Rafa and Novak) are pretty special.

After that it's pretty weak.

I mean just look at how many 29+ year olds have had their best seasons in the last couple of years. Even the ancient Benneteau reached his highest ranking last year.

I'm certainly not watching a peak Nadal here, in fact, today's Rafa Nadal wouldn't get past baked goods against his 2008 incarnation.

I don't usually watch Nadal but from what little I've seen since he's come back, it's conceivable he's not at his best anymore. Perhaps Djokovic's peak has missed Nadal's?

Socal: this article seems a bit confused...........how are you today?

Jeremy he's obviously a bit unhinged.

Clearly Nadal is playing rubbish.

The fact that he's reached 8 finals this year is just a reflection of the weakness of the tour.

Federer is on his last legs, and Rafa in all honesty isn't far behind. Watching him play this season, apart from a couple of matches, he's looked like a shadow of the player that dominated clay in 2008 and 10. It just shows how pathetic the field is that despite obviously being below par and having come off an 8 month lay off Rafa is still able to dominate the clay courts.

I don't buy any off the weak era crap but for people who do (Socal) then look no further than the current crop. The draw looks so lightweight it's unbelievable. There are no great youngsters. All the players after the top 3-4 are pretty crap. The older generation of players (ie from Fed's era) actually look to be the better all round players, despite being 5-6 years past their best.

shivfan wrote:Wilander and the other eurosport commentator are making some good points right now....this might be the strongest top five of all time but below number five this is easily the weakest chasing pack of all time....from five down to 100 these players are found wanting in so many ways.

I don't know about any of that shivfan, the trailing pack has a very high bar to jump over with how consistent the top 4 players have been. Players like Berdych, Tsonga, and Del Po are not weaker than what you expect or see in the past from players who hold their current positions lets say the 5-10 range. People have rose colored spectacles and forget that people like Chang and Brad Gilbert in times of supposedly greater parity broke into the top 5 or James Blake for that matter. How are Tsonga, Berdy, and del po weak second tier top 10 players and compared to who?

By the way the players 5-20 don't typically decide major titles in any era. But my point on this thread is not an era discussion per se but a comparison of one players form vs. the lionized version of Nadal from 05-08. I think the main reason 05-08 Nadal is seen as better is because he beat his main rival so routinely in most of their big matches, now he has been on the losing end of most of his big rivalry matches with his preeminent rival.

bogbrush wrote:I'm certainly not watching a peak Nadal here, in fact, today's Rafa Nadal wouldn't get past baked goods against his 2008 incarnation.

You do realize the man has played in 8 straight finals and won 6 of them. Frankly he is a better all around player, he was always very vulnerable on a hardcourt in 05-08 period. Now he is much less vulnerable on faster surfaces than in the past. I mean he lost one match that was his first final after a 7 month absence and one match to the world #1 on song, that is it. Did he never drop sets in 05-08 and did he win every match back then, I certainly don't remember a Nadal who was nearly as polished an all around player as we see in the last couple of years.

I don't pay attention to that S America low strength tour. We've also got to remember that his competition sent quite what it was; Federer s in a steepening decline, Djokovic beat him the only time they et.

I prefer to go by what I see, and what I've seen in three matches at RG as been worse than anything I've ever seen from him here.

He has won 2 masters one on clay and hardcourt as well with full fields. As for South America pretty much all the best clay courters have been going in recent years. I will concede he has not looked good so far in the early rounds of this RG, but he went through in straights today and has looked great in his comeback, and was looking great prior to his injury 2012 as well. Overrall across all surfaces Nadal of recent years is better, especially when you look at all the major hardcourt finals he has reached compared to Nadal of 05-08, on average.

Just saying it doesn't make it.

I see specific vulnerability now in the backhand, which is a shadow from the days when Federer said it was like playing a guy with two forehands. Now they can go there and get relief. That changes things massively: having a go-to strategy takes a lot off his opponents mind. Fognini was taking it there and getting results, and if he had half a mind he'd have got two sets out of the three I saw.

There is no such thing as me saying so, the fact is that he never as routinely made as many finals of Grandslams on hardcourt prior to now. His serve in the early days was 10-12 miles an hour slower we all have the numbers off of a gun. I don't think Nadal is worse on the backhand he still crunches the cross court backhand and looks a little inept when going up the line with it, which has always been the case. In the last couple of years he has been to a handful of hardcourt slam finals he went to zero in 05-8. A period of time where guys like Tsonga, Gonzo, and yes even the much maligned David Ferrer put him out of hardcourt slams. In 2006, Ferrer put a four set ass thumping on Nadal at the USO that was a lot less close than the scoreline, yes that David Ferrer.

Another poor attempt of an article.

Lets have a look at the balance left out players

1]Djokovic
2]Federer *
3]Nadal
4]Ferrer *
5]Tsonga
6]Simon Giles
7]Youzhny *
8]Tommy Haas **
9]Tommy Robredo *
10] Philipp Kohlschreiber *
11]N Almugro
12]Troiciki
13]R Gasquet
14]K Anderson
15]Kei Nishikori
16]Wawrinka

6/16 are 30 and 30 plus , all belonged to the era of 2003 and they are dominating the current era lions , conclusion current era is the golden era

David Ferrer, Gulbis, Zeballos are very close to the current Nadal's level, so if this the best of Nadal the best of David Ferrer, Gulbis and Rosol would have had 3 FO's to each of their name.

I would expect a speech from Gulbis how unlucky he was to have not take FO 2008 seriously, poor O Gulbis.

Apart from a couple of good matches, Nadal in his comeback has looked distinctly average.

The results are misleading. The SA tour didn't have any players of note apart from Ferrer in one tourney and in all the rest of the tourney's he was in danger of losing on multiple occasions. Far from convincing. Compare this to 08 or 10 when he was romping through the field on clay. In fact even in 05-07 he was destroying everyone bar Federer on clay.

Like BB said one only needs to look at his level of play. He's making more UE's than usual, the BH looks far weaker than it did in 08/09 (when it had developed into a real weapon) and he looks half a step slower to me.

The fact that he has still managed to win 6 tourneys despite a clear decline is indicative of the lack of strength on tour. Socal loves to deride the players of Federer's generation and yet, as IC has pointed out, many of those players are still active and going deep into tournaments. Many of them have reached their highest rankings in the last couple of years. How do you explain that apart from the insidiously and dubiously used 'they must be getting better'.

Lets face it, you may deride guys like Blake and Gonzo, but they had big games and on their day they were serious threats who could take anyone out of a tournament.

Anyway, we know your rather lame and transparent agenda. Anything to big up Screech. The funny thing is that you accuse Federer fans of trying to bolster his era by claiming that Rafa was better than than he is now, except I don't see any Federer fans actually making that claim outright. Lydian, if I remember correctly, suggested that Rafa might have been better on clay in his early years. Last time I checked he was a Nadal fan. But of course with you, it's all about the Federer fans. Personally I think some aspects of his game have improved (up till 2012, its too early to judge 2013, we need to wait and see how he performs on grass and HC) but other aspects have declined. Overall I think its a toss up as to which Nadal would prevail between 08 and 12. Probably 08 would win on clay and grass, and 12 on HC's.

The only one writing these silly comparative article is YOU. The sad, obsessed person that you are. And why would Federer fans feel the need to write such pointless artcles. Federer already proved in 2012 that he can beat the best of this generation - despite being 5-6 years past his best - or are we now going to argue that Federer is also playing better than ever.



emancipator

I have just read Rafa´s Spanish Blog and he says mentally he is not in the right place. He says he is too anxious and that he needs to relax more because its making him lose his mobility.. time will be spent over the week end to rectify this obvious "mental problem" he has.. he does not know why it has happened but that is his explanation.

Its ridiculous to say he is the "shell of Nadal" he had done nothing but win... and he is still winning no matter how badly he is playing... honestly Socal your boy has hit the skids over the past few tournaments nobody says he is the shell of Novak !!!!!

He's been woeful so far, I reckon that knee is really bothering him again.
He seems unhappy, agitated and not moving as fluidly. The BH is nowhere near what it was, nor is his serve right now...both strokes heavily influenced by use of his left knee.

Also, he can only practice 50 mins per day - how can he be as good as before from that? Only shortly ago in Rome he said:

"Sometimes I feel more (pain) and sometimes I feel less. Sometimes I have pain, sometimes it’s complicated. I try to avoid talking about it as much as possible, whisper it, because the results have been so good – it’s not the moment to analyze how I am. If one day I have pain and if I cannot continue, well, we’ll have to take some kind of decision to try and solve the problem with the knee.

Depending on the moments perhaps I have a little bit more pain, maybe you can tell by looking at me."

Looking at him, I would say he's a guy with a lot on his mind and perhaps playing through increasing pain. Something is awry for sure and yesterday after Fognini he said...

“I think is a question of calm down a little bit myself, play a little bit more relaxed, play with a little bit more confidence. Because what make me think that I am playing with a little bit of anxiety is that my movements are not being enough well, you know, and my movements normally are fantastic.

He doesnt look a happy man for sure but looks forward to practice on Sunday...
”Finally tomorrow I have a day off for practice because I didn’t have the chance on Thursday. So tomorrow after a few days I have another day to prepare well, to try to change a few things that I need, and that’s it. The positive thing is that I played very well last couple of weeks. Is not a moment that I didn’t play well for two months or three months. So just try to change a little bit the dynamic of my game, and play with a little bit more intensity with my legs. But to play more aggressive, I have to calm down a little bit more myself and play more relaxed and less anxious in my movements.”

He keeps mentioning his movement. So why is he so anxious its affecting his movement? Mental pressure getting to him for an 8th RG, or the stress and worry of playing through increasing pain that is limiting his movement as it has before. Who knows...time will tell.

I agree with you Lydian but he is hardly a "shell" he is Nadal who has problems which only he knows about.. this time 8/9 mths ago there is not a tennis fan who would have conceived of the fact that Rafa is where he is now.. yet SOME would love to think of him as a "shell". So the last few months have been tough after such a long lay off.. is that REALLY so surprising. I think it too soon to write him off .. there are a few to be accounted for

Haddie-nuff wrote:I have just read Rafa´s Spanish Blog and he says mentally he is not in the right place. He says he is too anxious and that he needs to relax more because its making him lose his mobility.. time will be spent over the week end to rectify this obvious "mental problem" he has.. he does not know why it has happened but that is his explanation.

I wonder how you 'fix' an anxiety problem, especially mid tournament?

I think this is probably a circular thing. He's anxious because he's not moving well and he's not moving well because he's anxious.

Absolutely HM .. and it has become his own personal mountain to climb.
Rafa sets himself high standards and when he cant reach those he puts pressure upon himself. He on the one hand has said how delighted he is to have come so far but consciously or unconsciously he wanted to take that one step further. He had said in a presser prior to the tournament that the pressure wasn´t on him because he had already won it 7 times but it maybe that at that time he never realised how important it was to him - I did feel he wasn´t moving well and if it IS THE KNEE he will not publicly admit to it of that Im sure

Haddie, you're misunderstanding socal. He's saying Nadal is better than ever and is sarcastically deriding anyone saying otherwise as simply trying to deride Djokovic.

It's not actually a Nadal article. It's a "Djokovic will have beaten the best ever Nadal" article.

In the World of Djokovic 4.1 or whatever other Dragonball Z based fantasy version socal has got going on, EVERYONE is playing better than they ever have, and Djokovic is #1. You can fill in the rest......

And to add to what BB has just said, no one is actually claiming that Nadal is a shell of himself (just another one of Socal's strawmen) but some would say that he is playing below par - I think that's pretty obvious.

Good grief socal talk about being dramatic! Shells, husks. Pfft! Whatever happens in RG (apart from injury) Rafa will survive. He's suffered bad losses in his career and not turned into a "husk" much as many would have wanted him too. Ha ha!

In his press conference he says he's not playing with calm and it shows. He is playing with tremendous pressure. I've no idea how he handles it. It can't help that the crowd go crazy almost every time his opponent hits a winner and when he makes a mistake so desperate are they to see a dramatic upset. On top of that he's had a tough few days. Unable to practice and getting upset at his unfair treatment in the schedule. The getting upset bit would of course be damaging to his confidence.

He really can be an enigma to watch. Great mental strength and also so nervy at times. Hopefully a day off and return to routine will allow him to regain some mental strength. The really big worry remains about how Rafa is physically but he's not said anything so fingers crossed.

emancipator wrote:And to add to what BB has just said, no one is actually claiming that Nadal is a shell of himself (just another one of Socal's strawmen) but some would say that he is playing below par - I think that's pretty obvious.

Of course it is em and he knows that as well as anyone... but a "shell" "husk". This stupid article is about a low as Ive seen this Novak fanatic drop to.. He was once a reasonable poster .. talk about go ott.
It has proven one thing about Rafa which most of us know.. that how ever he may have recovered physically he obviously has not made a full mental recovery and this has now quite obviously affected his game. Rafa will try to work it out of that Im sure... but how ever UGLY he is doing so .. he is winning which at the very least says he is no SHELL OR HUSK. No we dont like the way he is winning.. but winning he is and that tells you the player he is. I hope for HIS sake not mine that he does... Im prepared for Rafa not to win RG this year because I think its one step too far he has done too much too soon.

bogbrush wrote:Haddie, you're misunderstanding socal. He's saying Nadal is better than ever and is sarcastically deriding anyone saying otherwise as simply trying to deride Djokovic.

It's not actually a Nadal article. It's a "Djokovic will have beaten the best ever Nadal" article.

In the World of Djokovic 4.1 or whatever other Dragonball Z based fantasy version socal has got going on, EVERYONE is playing better than they ever have, and Djokovic is #1. You can fill in the rest......

OK BB

Oh yes this is Socal at his Wickerman 'best' and came out of the whole 2008 and before vs 2009 and after on clay comparisons. It's fairly obvious what his agenda is. Djokovic is the best player to pick up a racquet, especially if he can beat the clay GOAT who has won 6 titles this year.

It would take a blind man of sub 100 IQ to not see this current Nadal is still 60-70% of his best. All his results so far are great but they flatter his form as let's face it Nadal could still win clay events at 70% anyway. The others are better too and know the go to tactic is to hit hard and flat against him so that's what they're all doing and we see more of a struggle than before.

As HMM says its cyclical and he's a guy who needs a run of confidence and form to get to his best. The knees in my opinion constantly eat at his confidence to move optimally so his form goes up and down between 80-60%. I'm not sure if he can ever get back to 100% unless the knee goes completely.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

emancipator wrote:And to add to what BB has just said, no one is actually claiming that Nadal is a shell of himself (just another one of Socal's strawmen) but some would say that he is playing below par - I think that's pretty obvious.

Of course it is em and he knows that as well as anyone... but a "shell" "husk". This stupid article is about a low as Ive seen this Novak fanatic drop to.. He was once a reasonable poster .. talk about go ott.
.

A haddie, I am the one saying he isn't a shell or husk of himself that in recent years he is better. Sorry if I have a more positive view of the player you favor. Frankly, I really don't care much about your personal opinions of me, I don't know you personally and you don't know me. But it seems like few people actually want to talk about the substance of the argument comparing one player's development. Instead people like emancipator, want to make this about me personally that is fine, I just am not in the mood for it. If people like Shivfan, and for a little while BB want to talk about this subject that is fine I enjoy the argument and debate. If they want to descend in to pop psychological indictments and name calling honestly I am just tired of it. Talk the tennis.

lydian wrote:Oh yes this is Socal at his Wickerman 'best' and came out of the whole 2008 and before vs 2009 and after on clay comparisons. It's fairly obvious what his agenda is. Djokovic is the best player to pick up a racquet, especially if he can beat the clay GOAT who has won 6 titles this year.

It would take a blind man of sub 100 IQ to not see this current Nadal is still 60-70% of his best. All his results so far are great but they flatter his form as let's face it Nadal could still win clay events at 70% anyway. The others are better too and know the go to tactic is to hit hard and flat against him so that's what they're all doing and we see more of a struggle than before.

As HMM says its cyclical and he's a guy who needs a run of confidence and form to get to his best. The knees in my opinion constantly eat at his confidence to move optimally so his form goes up and down between 80-60%. I'm not sure if he can ever get back to 100% unless the knee goes completely.

I feel that this is unfair, I take the plain meaning of what you say and often I quote people directly, I actually take pride in not quoting out of context to deceive and even posting things that can cut both ways or contradict my position at times when I am wrong. All I can say is I don't believe this is an accurate portrayal, building strawmen and such.

However on the actually thread you mention that 60-70 percent of his best, I don't disagree that this is the best Nadal ever my specific point is that the Nadal of last couple of years is better than teenage Nadal on average. Now Nadal maybe right now in this particular tournaments is not playing like he used to or even from the start of his comeback. The best Nadal I have ever seen was in two occasions, The AO 2009 up till his injury and loss Soderling in that year, and in 2010 especially running through wimby and the USO where he was flat frightening. So when you accuse me of building a strawman remember that I never actually say this is the best Nadal ever, what I say is he is better all around player than he was in 05-08. If you disagree fine, lets leave it at that.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I have just read Rafa´s Spanish Blog and he says mentally he is not in the right place. He says he is too anxious and that he needs to relax more because its making him lose his mobility.. time will be spent over the week end to rectify this obvious "mental problem" he has.. he does not know why it has happened but that is his explanation.

Its ridiculous to say he is the "shell of Nadal" he had done nothing but win... and he is still winning no matter how badly he is playing... honestly Socal your boy has hit the skids over the past few tournaments nobody says he is the shell of Novak !!!!!

Now you will be accused of a Fed fan Haddie , just coz you won't buy the argument this is the best of Nadal.

The real scary Nadal I ever saw was on FO 2008, in my view Fed didn't play bad [may not be his best for what ever reason] indeed tried everything and nothing worked and indeed thrashed, even an off peak Fed took a set from Rafa in FO 2011, if 2006-2007 Fed to play this come back Rafa who knows he might even steal another FO crown.

ic I have come to realise Im more of a Fed fan than I thought I was ... we are not exactly spoilt for choice at the moment are we ?? and when I am cheering Roger on to win rather than his opponent (with the exclusion of the ) I know that things are getting bad in the tennis world.

Nadal was enormously good in 2008. I must give a small shout to Fed in that he tried to play a fully attacking match that time, knowing he didn't have it in him to run. No chance!

Not taking anything from Nadal, he was crazily strong.

I wish he were now BB.

The tournament's not over and he isn't out yet, Nadal has played poorly and his opponent's have played some much better tennis at times but he's still won. He knows how to win, it's engraved in his soul

I know that CJ and I know the Spanish mindset only too well. Rafa wont give in but he is not in the right place mentally at the moment.. and as is the well known fact that Rafa´s game relies enormously on his mental strength. He can come back .. as he often does.. but I am truly concerned that he has done too much too soon. But

Haddie-nuff wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Haddie, you're misunderstanding socal. He's saying Nadal is better than ever and is sarcastically deriding anyone saying otherwise as simply trying to deride Djokovic.

It's not actually a Nadal article. It's a "Djokovic will have beaten the best ever Nadal" article.

In the World of Djokovic 4.1 or whatever other Dragonball Z based fantasy version socal has got going on, EVERYONE is playing better than they ever have, and Djokovic is #1. You can fill in the rest......

OK BB

Another delusional fantasy of your own creation. Every time I have discussed Roger the last couple of years my position has been consistent, he has lost a step and isn't the same player, although I think some people overstate the fall off as well. I have always maintained Federer is past peak and not the same player, this is another one of your made up positions for me. But I guess if someone emoticons you for it you must be right. Its amusing how I get accused of making strawmen and you make up a claim that I said anything other than Roger is ageing and isn't the same player. But enjoy your caricature and flight into ficition and fantasy.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I agree with you Lydian but he is hardly a "shell" he is Nadal who has problems which only he knows about.. this time 8/9 mths ago there is not a tennis fan who would have conceived of the fact that Rafa is where he is now.. yet SOME would love to think of him as a "shell". So the last few months have been tough after such a long lay off.. is that REALLY so surprising. I think it too soon to write him off .. there are a few to be accounted for

The shell and stuff are over done by Socal as usual, he just can't digest the fact the current version of Nadal is not the best but that doesn't mean we would never see the best Nadal again we just don't know, clearly for the moment this is not the best of Nadal.

bogbrush wrote:Haddie, you're misunderstanding socal. He's saying Nadal is better than ever and is sarcastically deriding anyone saying otherwise as simply trying to deride Djokovic.

It's not actually a Nadal article. It's a "Djokovic will have beaten the best ever Nadal" article.

In the World of Djokovic 4.1 or whatever other Dragonball Z based fantasy version socal has got going on, EVERYONE is playing better than they ever have, and Djokovic is #1. You can fill in the rest......

Just a small correction BB, while everybody on tour upped their level best, Djoko is having an ankle problem yet he is comfortably beating them all to be the No.1, what we seeing before our eyes is The GOD of Tennis the GOD in DJokovic

No but then we are not seeing the "best" Djokovic either are we ic.??

Haddie-nuff wrote:No but then we are not seeing the "best" Djokovic either are we ic.??

Not at all Haddie, nobody born to beat the best of Djokovic, I don't know whether we will ever see that or to say better we are not blessed to see that , if that could please some poster and make them happy lets do it.

Yes lets make up positions for me and pass them off as the truth, a very fun pastime please continue. Funny Haddie weren't you the one talking about how poor Nadal was feeling anxiety and not his best, I am not making any excuses about an ankle or form. I stated a fact Djokovic lost early in 4 out 5 tournaments but that his form is rounding into good shape in the early rounds. I love it a Nadal fan famous for "Nadal not at his best arguments" is complaining that Djokovic fans are making "Novak not at his best arguments." Hmmm where have we heard that before?

I am not the one making excuses for Nadal... read his presser and let him speak for himself... I didn´t put words in his mouth SO SOCAL IT ISN´T THAT FUNNY is it !!!
Well is Novak at his best .... what was he like in the last couple of tournaments you think he played well ??? well in which case you were not watching the same matches I was Socal. What has he had to do in the early rounds a couple of matches all he had to do was show up.
Rafa isn´t playing well and Im the first to admit it.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I am not the one making excuses for Nadal... read his presser and let him speak for himself... I didn´t put words in his mouth SO SOCAL IT ISN´T THAT FUNNY is it !!!
Well is Novak at his best .... what was he like in the last couple of tournaments you think he played well ??? well in which case you were not watching the same matches I was Socal. What has he had to do in the early rounds a couple of matches all he had to do was show up.
Rafa isn´t playing well and Im the first to admit it.

What are you talking about Haddie, my problem is with you, IC, and BB making up exaggerations and out right fantasies and alluding or directly stating that these things are my positions they are not. I repeated my argument for you so you get it straight and don't get it twisted. I didn't mention anything about Novak being or not being at his best you just made that up. I stated he has played pretty well in the first three rounds, better than he played as of late. Where from this did you extrapolate anything about being or not being at his best.

O get on with it Socal .. the title of this thread was a deliberate attempt to be ambiguous.. when Novak and Nadal are mentioned in the same breath. I find it difficult if not impossible to get into any form of dialogue with you. I do not have the time, inclination or energy frankly to fathom what exactly your point is.. if there is one.

Its very simple if you want to get it, but if you are predisposed to argue and bicker and don't want to talk that is fine to.

Good

Roger Federer has witnessed Rafael Nadal’s transition from a boy to a man. On Wednesday at Roland Garros, the Swiss reflected on the growth in his rival’s game from their first meeting in 2004, when Nadal was 17 years of age.

“Well, he is more or less still the same player,” shared the 31-year-old Federer, “because when you come on the tour for the first time, you already have your own basis. So your strengths will remain your strengths and your weaknesses will remain your weaknesses, although you can improve them.

“I believe Rafa improved in both. His strengths are even better now and his weaknesses are better, although they're still not as good as his strengths. Of course also he's fitter. He's no longer a young boy. He's a man now. He has experience on top of that. So he really improved. It's spectacular and the results are there to show, to prove it.”

The pair faced off two weeks ago in Rome, their first meeting in a final since 2011 at Roland Garros, and Nadal won in straight sets to improve to a 20-10 mark in their FedEx ATP Head2Head series.

With the victory, the Spaniard claimed his sixth title from eight finals this season and his 41st clay-court crown, second best on the list of Open Era leaders behind Guillermo Vilas with 45. Last year, Nadal won Roland Garros for a seventh time to break the record he shared with Bjorn Borg.

Federer, who has a 2-13 mark against Nadal on clay, weighed how he’d fare against Borg on the surface. “Probably not so good,” he stated. “He was one of the greatest clay court players of all time. He was fighting with the wood racquets, and it was a different time. That's why I never quite know who was the greatest of all time.

“We will never know how we would have all matched up, because Borg would have played totally different in today's age. And Rafa would have played very different back then because you can't play the way he plays today, but great players find a way, and that's what Rafa is showing in these last 10 years.

“It's amazing how successful he is and how he brings it every single match, and he can really enjoy utmost respect [from] all the players for what he has achieved, not only just on clay. He is still stapled off as the clay court guy which he clearly is not anymore.”

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2013/05/22/Roland-Garros-Wednesday-Federer-On-Nadal-Growth.aspx

since it seems that some can't understand my arguments lets see what Roger has to say on the subject.

Err.. Roger's talking about the improvement in Nadal from when he FIRST came on the tour as a 17 year old. I don't think anyone's disputing that he has improved from then.

Yes Federer alludes to some of the things I have been saying as well emancipator when he talks at the end about how he isn't just a clay courter guy anymore. Nadal's biggest improvement off of the clay, particularly on the hardcourt came post 2008.