Monaco GP Thread - Sponsored by Nytol Sleeping Pills - Contains Practice/Qualifying/Race Spoilers

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

Round six of the 2013 FIA Formula One World Championship will see the teams do battle around the tight and twisting streets of Monaco for a race that cranks up G-forces of a different kind – meaning there will be plenty of glitz and glamour on show as well as no small amount of grit and determination on the part of the drivers at a track that provides them with one of the season’s toughest tests.

The track may have the slowest average speed of any circuit on the calendar but the proximity of the barriers and the lack of run-off areas means it requires absolute focus and total commitment, especially as early in the weekend the surface is usually very slippery. The winding nature of the track means the teams will bring their highest downforce aero configurations and tyre manufacturer Pirelli will supply its soft and supersoft tyres in order to maximise mechanical grip.

Beyond the need for downforce and good traction, the Monaco Grand Prix is all about driver skill and this, coupled with the race’s history, makes it the one every racer wants to win. In recent years that honour has gone to those wearing the colours of Red Bull Racing, with Mark Webber winning in 2010 and last year and Sebastian Vettel victorious in 2011.

Whether that run will continue is anyone’s guess. Pole position is of major importance in Monaco, with all but two of the last 10 races being won from the front of the grid. On that score, Mercedes look to be the form team, with Nico Rosberg on pole at the last two races and Lewis Hamilton in P1 at the start in China. However, Fernando Alonso, energised by his recent home win at the Spanish Grand Prix, will undoubtedly fancy his chances of a third Monaco victory, while this season’s Mr Consistency, Kimi Raikkonen, will no doubt be in the mix again come Sunday. In truth, on a circuit where the influence of car superiority is significantly reduced, any one of a host of drivers could win F1’s most glittering prize.

Facts

This will be the 71st Monaco Grand Prix, the race stretching all the way back to 1929. It is the 60th Formula One race here, with the principality making its debut on the first Formula One calendar in 1950. It then took a break until 1955 but has featured on the calendar every year since.

Olivier Panis won the 1996 race from 14th on the grid, the lowest position from which victory has been scored here since Formula One began. In a race characterised by wet weather, crashes and mechanical failures, just four of the 21 who started the race were still racing when the chequered flag came out on lap 75 – Panis, David Coulthard, Johnny Herbert. Fourth-placed Heinz Harald-Frentzen was in the pits when the flag fell.

That 1996 win was Panis’ first and last in Formula One. Eight other drivers have recorded maiden F1 wins here: Juan Manuel Fangio (1950), Maurice Trintignant (1955), Jack Brabham (1959), Denny Hulme (1967), Jean-Pierre Beltoise (1972), Patrick Depailler (1978), Riccardo Patrese (1982), and Jarno Trulli (2004). Only Beltoise, Panis and Trulli never won again.

A high grid position is a major advantage here. Since 1950 the race has only been won 10 times from a starting position worse than third place. From third on the grid the race has also been won 10 times since 1950. However, only three of those have come since the turn of the century – Coulthard in 2000, Juan Pablo Montoya in ’03, and Lewis Hamilton in ’08.

The driver starting second has won 13 times since 1950, but only two of those have come since 2000 – Michael Schumacher in 2001 and Coulthard in 2002.

The race has been won from the front of the grid 26 times since 1950. Since 2000, eight winners have started in P1.

McLaren have the most victories at the Monaco race (15). The second most successful team at the track is Ferrari with eight, while Lotus have clinched seven, including their maiden victory in 1960.

Of the current drivers only Fernando Alonso and Mark Webber have multiple wins here. Both have two victories (Alonso in ’06 and ’07 and Webber in ’10 and ’12). If Alonso wins for Ferrari this year he will be the first driver in F1 history to win here with three different teams. His first victory was with Renault and his second came with McLaren.

Of the 2013 rookies only Williams’ Valtteri Bottas has never raced here in single seaters. Marussia’s Jules Bianchi debuted here in Formula Renault 3.5 in 2009 and raced here in GP2 in 2010-’11. Caterham’s Giedo van der Garde raced here in F3 Euro Series in 2005. He also raced here in Formula Renault 3.5 (2007-’08) and in GP2 (’09-’12). Marussia’s Max Chilton made his Monaco debut in Formula Renault 3.5 in 2009 and raced in GP2 in 2010-’12. Sauber’s Esteban Gutierrez first raced here in GP2 in 2011 and again last year

Source:RaceDepartment

[Bull]

I cant see Grosjean losing his seat either way tbh with him being eric's friend,manager etc though if they got rid of him who would they bring in Hekki? Koba?

[Guest]

Shocking race. Rosberg deserved the win but it was gifted really with Hamilton`s troubles and Vettel`s acceptance of second from half way through the race. Tyres are just horrific, why should a driver who wants to be aggressive and entertain be ultimately punished later on.

Basically a great day for Vettel......typical. Well done Kimi for 10th, record is still on

He was gifted nothing, he dominated the whole weekend and fully deserved to win Hamilton robbed himself of second.

Not the worst race by Monaco's standards, some nice overtakes by Perez and Sutil. Grosjean is lucky to still have a job.

If you read what I wrote properly. I said Rosberg deserved the win, I was just stating it was further gifted to him when Vettel understood that kimi/Alonso were struggling and he just accepted second place from half way through the race. Exerted no pressure on Rosberg and then produces the fastest lap by 2 seconds on the last lap. Once again an example of the tyres just preventing us seeing cars/drivers potential.

Agree Hamilton made the mistake but why on earth did no 1 at Mercedes track the safety car release and the speed vet tel was going at. Amateurish mistake. Grosjeans a case of being french , managed by boullier and being a gp2 & gp2 Asia champion, talent is clearly there and if he dropped out of f1 he would be too good for minor series. Replacing him with valsecchi would make the team weaker, especially this season.

The biggest story is Vet tel continuing to extend his championship lead. Here comes no.4!

[GSC]

I've been impressed with Grosjean this season, but this was just a return to form. Doesn't know his limits

[Fernando]

I cant see Grosjean losing his seat either way tbh with him being eric's friend,manager etc though if they got rid of him who would they bring in Hekki? Koba?

If he did would be current reigning GP2 Champion Davide Valsecchi id expect

[CaledonianCraig]

Reading that changes things.

It can be presumed that no other teams were offered the chance to test (as per rules) but cannot see how Mercedes can be blamed for that. Surely, Pirelli and the FIA should be more culpable as it concerns them as they make the rules.

However, I can easily see the FIA trying to distance themselves from any blame and dishing out penalties such as disqualifying both Mercedes cars from the Monaco Grand Prix and offering the rest of the F1 teams a similar chance of 1000km of testing tyres with this year's car.

[JubbaIsle]

Two possible ramifications from that news bite CC...

Did any other teams get asked to do the testing this time and did the same thing happen when Ferrari did testing after Bahrain ?

Red Bull apparently knew about this on Saturday, but waited until after the race on Sunday to complain, good timing methinks.

more updated info out as we speak, from the BBC site...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22676348?postId=116281105#comment_116281105

Seems to me the other teams are crying over spilt milk and trying to cause upset in the Mercedes camp.

[CaledonianCraig]

I really cannot see how Mercedes can be blamed if you think about it logically.

Obviously, Pirelli asked them if they wanted to partake in a tyre test and considering how poor the car has been on its tyres they jumped at the chance. I am presuming Mercedes got assurances it was all above board by Pirelli and the FIA.

Now I cannot see how it is Mercedes fault if other teams either weren't asked or were asked and turned down the chance. As Pirelli were running the tests with the backing of the FIA surely it is up to those two organisations to offer the other teams chance to test under the same conditions but seemingly they didn't but that is not Mercedes concern.

Logically, I cannot see how Mercedes are in anyway to blame but since when have the FIA under the incompetent leadership of Bernie Ecclestone acted with any logic? I see Mercedes made the fall guys here and stripped of their Monaco points with possibly the other teams offered a similar tyre test without Mercedes taking part.

[JubbaIsle]

If they do penalise Mercedes it would cast grave doubts over their integrity, unless there has been an underlying effort to mask the data gathering that Mercedes may have got from the testing, which I believe is what the other teams are saying in a round about manner.

Using a current car with current drivers with tyres to be used this year in Canada would seem to amount to cheating, but there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye.

Over 30 different tests in 1000 miles of driving, using different setups would make it very difficult form Mercedes to gather data if the electronic surveillance apparatus is not connected to the teams machines, which I presume is what happens given Ferrari had the same set of tests done in Madrid without all this furore. How can Pirelli use the data if it goes through Mercedes ?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Well I guess technically Mercedes have done some testing in the season, which I believe is against the rules

[CaledonianCraig]

Obviously, a heck of a lot of data was gathered but Mercedes were invited to test. It is not like it was done in secret or without consultation with Pirelli and in a round about way - with the FIA. It isn't Mercedes fault (that I can see) that Pirelli either chose not to invite any other team or that other teams perhaps never took up the invite.

From the outside looking in I would say Pirelli and the FIA are far more culpable as they were/are the ones responsible and in charge.

[CaledonianCraig]

Well I guess technically Mercedes have done some testing in the season, which I believe is against the rules

Not according to the FIA letter published online or according to Pirelli who apparently assured Mercedes it was all legal and above board.

[JubbaIsle]

I hope the truth comes out in the end.

I can't see Mercedes putting their whole season at risk if they thought testing the car was a little dubious in the rule book. Pirelli prob looked at how Ferrari did their testing and the results that they got, so wanted a more current car to further test the safety, which makes sense given how far into the season we are. Using the car that crunches the tyres and one that had a really bad de-lamination and subsequent gearbox change would make sense, and if that was from a list of teams who responded to Pirelli's invite to test, then its their choice, but if Mercedes were given the go ahead by Pirelli after seeking permission from the FIA which was granted, then all 3 of them are in the mix.

What comes out in the end hopefully is the truth. If I were the FIA, I'd respond with an enquiry so that the full facts are presented.

[Guest]

A full enquiry will take time. This is just going to be another big story that creates a huge doubt on proceedings and uncertainty within the sport and the championship, typical F1. The decision making and judgement from the FIA is quite frankly embarrasingly poor from such a professional governing body.

Guess this will rumble on and on and end up becoming increasingly messy. If Mercedes are striped of their results in Monaco, look who gets promoted to 25 points......you guessed it.

God I Hate These Tyres, Killing The Sport. End Of.

[mystiroakey]

Time to just let teams decide there own tyres and be done with it!!!

[monty junior]

I've been impressed with Grosjean this season, but this was just a return to form. Doesn't know his limits

Really? he spent the first couple of races on the edge of the top 10 whilst his team mate was challenging at the front. The only good race he had was in Bahrain and even then it was more down to having more sets of new tyres than a Force India. I think he's lucky to still be in F1, he's the French Sato.

[mystiroakey]

I really rate grosjean..
He is a real racing driver..

[Critical_mass]

I really rate grosjean..
He is a real racing driver..

Youre joking right? Dont get me wrong, i dont mind the guy and think he has potential, but as it stands at the mo he needs to be more aware of his surroundings.

[dyrewolfe]

Well I guess technically Mercedes have done some testing in the season, which I believe is against the rules

Not according to the FIA letter published online or according to Pirelli who apparently assured Mercedes it was all legal and above board.

Thats pretty much what Paul Hembery said during the weekend, when questioned about it.

As I commented on the other thread, if Pirelli simply borrowed one of Mercedes' cars and conducted the tests entirely in-house, using their own test driver, Merc wouldn't gain any useful data or any kind of advantage over the other teams.

[CaledonianCraig]

Well I guess technically Mercedes have done some testing in the season, which I believe is against the rules

Not according to the FIA letter published online or according to Pirelli who apparently assured Mercedes it was all legal and above board.

Thats pretty much what Paul Hembery said during the weekend, when questioned about it.

As I commented on the other thread, if Pirelli simply borrowed one of Mercedes' cars and conducted the tests entirely in-house, using their own test driver, Merc wouldn't gain any useful data or any kind of advantage over the other teams.

The point is that the FIA and Pirelli vetoed the tests. The real question is why didn't Pirelli ask ALL the teams to partake in the tests? That is their wrong-doing though and not Mercedes.

[JubbaIsle]

But technically they did according to Pirelli, they asked all the teams last year if they wanted to take part in some testing this year, of course, they can't hide behind that smoke screen anymore, as the FIA have pointed out, it needed to be done again when they requested the use of a 2013 car.

Pirelli have got Mercedes into trouble, the FIA should have demanded that Pirelli give a list of all participating teams and who did or did not accept the invitation, again its Pirelli's fault as far as I can see, but the FIA are also culpable in that they had knowledge of Pirelli's intentions.

[GSC]

I'd be very surprised if Mercedes were completely ignorant here as some are making out

[Guest]

If Mercedes' had 0% blame, do you think there would be a continued uproar regarding this story. Yes, they do have a percentage of the mistake and going along with the test but as far as I am aware, this looks entirely like another embarrasing foul up by the FIA and Pirelli. I just can't see how Pirelli will be staying in the sport next season. Their reputation has taken a huge hit in regards to these tyres and the detrimental effect its having upon the fan's enjoyment of the sport.

[JubbaIsle]

If I was Mercedes, I wouldn't pass up the chance to test the car with the new tyres, but to what extent did that testing garnish any data for them to use.

If the tyres used were to determine their safety, then imo, there is no data to be had.

Mercedes had already put their name forward for testing last year, so when approached by Pirelli asking them to use a 2013 car, they went to the FIA and got permission, that is all the needed to do. Its not their responsibility to go and find out who did or didnt sign up then tell the ones who did what they were going to do. Thats Pirellis domain.

Also, the FIA should have told all the teams of their decision to allow Mercedes and Pirelli they were going to try using a 2013 car, its not that many emails surely. Then all this mess could have been avoided.

[CaledonianCraig]

If I was Mercedes, I wouldn't pass up the chance to test the car with the new tyres, but to what extent did that testing garnish any data for them to use.

If the tyres used were to determine their safety, then imo, there is no data to be had.

Mercedes had already put their name forward for testing last year, so when approached by Pirelli asking them to use a 2013 car, they went to the FIA and got permission, that is all the needed to do. Its not their responsibility to go and find out who did or didnt sign up then tell the ones who did what they were going to do. Thats Pirellis domain.

Also, the FIA should have told all the teams of their decision to allow Mercedes and Pirelli they were going to try using a 2013 car, its not that many emails surely. Then all this mess could have been avoided.

Spot on Jubba. Either the FIA and Pirelli are to blame for not informing all teams of the opportunity to test or for allowing the tests in the first place. The FIA though you just know are going to leave the blame firmly at somebody else's door.

[JubbaIsle]

Well, if there is an inquiry CC, hopefully the FIA won't be able to shift any responsibility on their behalf, but it'll be interesting to see what exactly happened in the Pirelli camp.

We know more or less what lengths Mercedes went to, to seek permission to use a Pirelli requested 2013 car with current drivers that was outside of the FIA's rulebook.

The only possible hiccup could be that apparently, the FIA did not hear from Mercedes that the unothodox test was or had taken place with them. I presume Mercedes were expecting Pirelli to produce that information to the FIA on confirmation of the time and place of the agreed test and availability of other teams wishing to take part too.

If true, are they really going to penalise them for that little oversight ?

[Guest]

Why are the new rear tyres only being tested on the Friday at Canada but then the teams revert back to the old tyres for Saturday and Sunday. If they are only slight variations or improvements, why not just decide to go with them all weekend. Basically, Fridays session is now a glorified pirelli test session and the teams will gain no real insight into what the long runs will be like on the old rears before Saturday and the race on high fuel. What a confusing and pointless decision in my opinion.

I think its clear that nothing will happen to Mercedes now of any significance. Pirelli and the FIA foul up which is nothing new.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Why are the new rear tyres only being tested on the Friday at Canada but then the teams revert back to the old tyres for Saturday and Sunday. If they are only slight variations or improvements, why not just decide to go with them all weekend. Basically, Fridays session is now a glorified pirelli test session and the teams will gain no real insight into what the long runs will be like on the old rears before Saturday and the race on high fuel. What a confusing and pointless decision in my opinion.

I think its clear that nothing will happen to Mercedes now of any significance. Pirelli and the FIA foul up which is nothing new.

I suspect that it's because Ferrari and co are still withholding agreement on changing the tyres - at the moment they think they benefit from being better at managing the current ones than the Red Bulls.

[GSC]

Makes sense for Ferrari and Lotus to hammer home their advantage and get their rewards for makinjg a quick car that doesnt blow its tyres

[JubbaIsle]

Did Ferarri get any advantage from testing in Bahrain, albeit in a 2011 car, cos they seem to have developed the management of tyres better since then ? (or is it coincidence)

Correct me if I'm wrong on that count, Its only an observation.

[Guest]

I think your wrong. They would have already had developed the car over the previous winter and the Ferrari has been great on its tyres from the get-go in Australia. I dont see how they got any advantage from testing in Bahrain with no data and on an old car spec.

[JubbaIsle]

I think you're right John, just me being a little conspirational.

Now that Pirelli have quoted the tests as blind, its concreted my opinion that Red Bull knew all this and are rocking the boat intentionally. They may have "found" out about the "secret" testing on Saturday evening before the race, but why wait to lodge a complaint until after the race, or at least make the complaint public at that time ?

[Fernando]

It appears Ferrari are in the on the act aswell and have been called up infront of the FIA over a test they did with De La Rosa and a 2011 car

[JubbaIsle]

Maybe Ferrari should have let that sleeping dog lie.

[Guest]

You do know that nothing is going to come about from all this in terms of actual severe punishments. I can't wait for Canada and getting back to some kind of real action and racing, instead of this regurgitated guessing of what will happen or who's to blame. It's an FIA/Pirelli foul up as clear as day and just bad communication all round, with Mercedes, more innocent than guilty sitting in the middle. You really think there going to punish Mercedes & Ferrari now and take away their points from races and turn this Championship into a farse? If that happens, let's just award Vettel his fourth straight title while we are at it.

Story is boring now in my opinion. Sorry but it's true, this is a typical blown out of proportion F1 story where nothing happens and the team's evade punishment. Red Bull have been taking advantage of loopholes or FIA foul ups with TD's for years and nothing happens.

[dyrewolfe]

Good point John. Docking or completely stripping either team of their points will make the title race a non-event and pretty much ruin the season, so I doubt it will come to that.

I would expect warnings to be issued, with fines being the maximum punishment. Followed by some hasty rule amendments to make sure there is no more confusion regarding in-season or tyre testing.

Actually rather surprised Ferrari have been asked to explain their actions as it was made quite clear their tests were done with a 2011 car.

[JubbaIsle]

Ah, the boring facts again I sorry to say.

Not supposed to use a current driver or current car in testing.

Or something like that, its hard to know whats what now, its getting rather confusing to be honest.

Recent news is that a team can use any set of drivers to do the tests. Rules state only that 2yr old car designs must be used for this years testing.

News about the helmet fiasco is that security was in mind when reasoning out how Hamilton and Rosberg should be driving covertly from the "public" eye.

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