BATH RUGBY - 2013/14

First topic message reminder :

New Thread for the new season - https://www.606v2.com/t54781-bath-rugby-pre-season-2014-15

We definitely have a distinct style, it was very clear last season and even moreso this season, you need to watch more rugby and less highlights lad.

Bathite not just Youngs skinned him. Croft skinned him too. Devoto was at fault for both tries. Got completely outplayed by Tait too. I remember Devoto having a howler.

A winger outpacing a full back isn't quite the same as a full back being gassed by a 6 and a 9.

Bath have a distinct style? Please educate me then.

It's the same style as an Gary Gold style, not rocket science, it's plainly obvious 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22509114  - This is Gary Gold style I presume?

It's not painfully obvious to me. Whatever it is perhaps it needs a re-think?

If I was Bruce Craig I would hire these coaches instead:

Jake White -Director of Rugby

Brian Ashton - Attack Coach

David Ellis - Defence Coach

Unsure about Head Coach - perhaps Martin Johnson?

Devoto really isn't a fullback. He's not nearly quick enough. He's better at 10 and could probably do a decent job at 12.

Beshocked, Gold has brought a more aggressive and organised side to Bath. That has limited their attacking options to date. Pretty much the opposite to what Bath were like under Meehan. They were forward orientated last season but didn't quite have the squad. They are looking better equiped this season but need an attack coach to trigger a spark ball in hand.

Tom Heathcote had a fairly good Quadrangular with Scotland - a couple of defensive brainfarts, to be sure, but there's lots to be optimistic about for the future. With Peter Horne out for 9 months with an ACL tear, Duncan Weir still mending his broken bone and Rhubarb Jackson about as consistent as my 18 month old daughter trying to pick a pair of shoes in the morning, Heathcote is looking good for a starting berth in the Six Nations.

The worry Scotland fans have is that he won't be getting regular starts at 10. Leaving aside the nepotism-tastic route that we could of course go down - how much game time will Tom get this season in comparison to Ford?

Devoto was a 10 who could play 15 at a junior level, they wanted to get onto the pitch so he was played at 15. No different to the likes of Cipriani or Alex Goode at the same age. Certainly from what Gold has said, he sees him as a long term 10 and may well be playing there during the LV. I agree he hasnt the pace for FB, something that will be even more obvious given that Watson and Bendy are now the 2 options.

Re Heathcote, as the season begins, we will have 2 young 10's (plus Henson), one of which started in the last international and one who didnt even make the extended squad. It should be obvious therefore who starts...! Seriously though I don't think Ford is going to be a guarenteed starter, no matter what Cockerill might say.

beschocked, I would love Ashton back, England have nabbed him twice from us and ruined him the second time. He is a great coach, but he does need players who can take a bit of responsibility themselves. He is now coaching Flyde in N2 I think, so maybe his time has past.

A winger outpacing a full back isn't quite the same as a full back being gassed by a 6 and a 9.

But to be fair Beshocked Youngs is very quick....and Croft is rediculouly quick. In fact he should have been a winger not a flanker...

formerly known as Sam wrote:Devoto really isn't a fullback. He's not nearly quick enough. He's better at 10 and could probably do a decent job at 12.

Beshocked, Gold has brought a more aggressive and organised side to Bath. That has limited their attacking options to date. Pretty much the opposite to what Bath were like under Meehan. They were forward orientated last season but didn't quite have the squad. They are looking better equiped this season but need an attack coach to trigger a spark ball in hand.

Couldn't have put it better myself, well said. Devoto isn't a 15, but it was a chance to give him some game time in a couple of games where the result didn't matter that much, as we'd already blown 6th

beshocked wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22509114  - This is Gary Gold style I presume?

It's not painfully obvious to me. Whatever it is perhaps it needs a re-think?

If I was Bruce Craig I would hire these coaches instead:

Jake White -Director of Rugby

Brian Ashton - Attack Coach

David Ellis - Defence Coach

Unsure about Head Coach - perhaps Martin Johnson?:whistle:

You're a dreamer! Get real lad.

If you can't notice the change in style between us before and after Gold and also what he did at Newcastle, then I really wonder what you watch in a game at all!?

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Devoto is a young, promising player, but certainly not a first teamer.  He played out of position and was shown up by 2 internationals and Lions - I'd be rather worried if they didn't do that to such a player!

Personally I hate what Gold has done to Bath. They don't chuck the ball around like a hot potato or have a powder puff front 5.  All in all, it is rather disappointing!

Geordie, Croft could have been a winger or an OC Rougerie style but what a waste it would have been. Despite the tired Sky commentary banging on about him hiding on the wing the guy is a work horse and has saved Tigers from conceding dozens if trys with his signature scything cover tackles.

Ford was promised more first team action so I'd imagine the first half of the season will see a lot of rotation between him and Heathcote and then the form option taking the shirt for the run in. If Bath don't provide rugby he won't stay. Tigers offered the same financial package as Bath the guy wants to play regularly.

HongKongCherry wrote:I'm not sure what the issue is here. Devoto is a young, promising player, but certainly not a first teamer.  He played out of position and was shown up by 2 internationals and Lions - I'd be rather worried if they didn't do that to such a player!

Oh god, I'm agreeing with you as well now HKC!

formerly known as Sam wrote:Geordie, Croft could have been a winger or an OC Rougerie style but what a waste it would have been. Despite the tired Sky commentary banging on about him hiding on the wing the guy is a work horse and has saved Tigers from conceding dozens if trys with his signature scything cover tackles.

Ford was promised more first team action so I'd imagine the first half of the season will see a lot of rotation between him and Heathcote and then the form option taking the shirt for the run in. If Bath don't provide rugby he won't stay. Tigers offered the same financial package as Bath the guy wants to play regularly.

He won't be able to leave before the end of his contract, unless someone wants to buy him out, which counts against their cap I thought. So regardless of what he's been 'promised' and what happens, he'll be here for a while, independent of how much he plays. He might get a game during the 6Ns when McHeathcote is away though.

He's on a two year contract if I remember rightly it's not like he there long term if he's not getting a fair shot at rotation. You'll love him anyway, the boy is class and if Henson is kicking for goal there's no reason he won't work brilliantly for you. Richard Cockerill has already said he'd take him back which is very rarely the case when a player leaves Tigers.

Wait until he starts directing that Bath team. He controls territory better than any othe English 10 and he stands so flat he gets things running forward and is a real swine to defend against. Just a bit more experience and the ability to goal kick and he'll start for England.

Bathite wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:I'm not sure what the issue is here. Devoto is a young, promising player, but certainly not a first teamer.  He played out of position and was shown up by 2 internationals and Lions - I'd be rather worried if they didn't do that to such a player!

Oh god, I'm agreeing with you as well now HKC!

You've taken the first steps to enlightenment and the cherry and white Shangri La

Sam perhaps Bath are more organised but this has not given Bath the consistency they need.

Bathite

I am a dreamer? With Bruce Craig's financial backing he can attract whoever he likes with the right incentive. Coaches don't fit into the salary cap do they?

Head coach could be Andy Robinson.

My opinion is that Bath could do better than your current coaching set up. What exactly has Gary Gold achieved in his career?

Bath should be getting results with the amount of investment put in. Gold must deliver.


 I agree that Bath have changed their style under Gold. I just don't think Bath have established a style that is sufficiently distinctive to other clubs in the AP.

If you were going to sum up Bath's style how would you do it? I will start off with the top 4.

E.g. Quins have their attacking offloading game. Leicester have their ruthless all round game. Saints emphasize on their powerful scrum. Saracens have their defensive ferocity and workrate

How does Bath stand out from it's rival clubs? That's the point I am trying to get across. What do you do better than any other side for example?


Before you attack my opinion - bear in mind I like Bath, the club, the town - I just want to see you have a strong season. I just have my doubts whether Gold is the man for the job.

If everyone were yes men surely there would be no discussion. 

In your squad list you wrote down Devoto as full back cover. I just pointed out I would be a bit worried if it came down to him being your last line of defence.


Bath have made some exciting signings. I hope you can make the most of them.

That's true the Bath signature, almost Baabaas esque, attacking style went out the window last season. You could describe their style as Worcester but good I suppose. It's all a bit transitional at the Wreck at the minute Beshocked. They certainly have signed some interesting players though.

beshocked wrote:What do you do better than any other side for example?

Thats the problem, very little, hence finishing 7th! Last season we seemed to resort to a poor impression of Sarries in your first season with Venter at the helm, however without the success and or the kicker to execute the plan. I would hope with the new players brought in we can revert to a more attacking free flowing style, but with more grunt up front than in the Meehan era. To play more like Leicester do I suppose I mean.

With regards to the coaches, I agree beshocked in that if you could pick any coaches in the world, Gold, Ford and Booth wouldnt be at the top of many people's lists. But having said that , it would be good to have a period of stability in the coaching team, so the only change I would want for this season would be a dedicated attack coach. Apparently Catt was a possible before England grabbed him but that is a glaring gap in our coaching team.

Bathman in London I think you hit the nail on the head. You need a good goal kicker to back everything up.

Does Heathcote fill the bill? According to Sam doesn't sound like Ford Jr does yet.


I think you lost a lot of games because you simply weren't effective enough with the boot.

It's interesting looking at the top points scorers - Bath are one of the only sides not to have a player there, the other two being London Irish and Sale.

The likes of Leicester,Sarries and Quins have very good kickers which means they can keep the scoreboard ticking.

I agree stability is good. Ashton would indeed fit the bill for an attack coach. You say he is past it. I don't know about that. I just think that the England job puts off coaches from getting something else high profile - e.g. Martin Johnson.

Saying all that I will be wary of Bath. Perhaps you will forge your own distinctive path. 

Sam I am not quite sure being like a better version of Worcester is where Bath want to be!

I understand Ashton has been approached about a number of roles, but has made it clear he has no intention of returning to top class rugby. Bath probably missed a trick not getting Alex King.

Worcester play a good well rounded brand of rugby Beshocked. Their problem is a lack of finance that sees a lack of high quality signings and most of their top talent stolen by other teams. They have for a long time generated their own players or invested wisely in value for money options. They could do with a real strength to build off. Bath haven't got those financial concerns but do lack a major strength to fall back on and build around unlike Saints and their scrum or Sarries and their defence.

I think Bath will be very competitive this season. They're developing a powerful pack now instead of the weak athletic one they have had previously...they wont get overpowered by anyone.

Add in the likes of Joseph coming in, Banahan continuing to impress, Eastmond growing in to the sport, then they should be a different proposition this season...especially if Ford or Heathcote can provide the linkman / 10 performances required...

Sam I agree with that. It's where I think Bath need to find something they can call their specialist strength. E.g. look how much effort Leicester have put into their frontrow options.

Geordiefalcon on paper it's a good looking squad but can they gel?

With Joseph being signed as the main outside centre, Agulla and Biggs as the first choice wings, where does Banahan fit in? Will he just be used as cover?

Well thats the question Beshocked...

I think Banahan will be share 12 with Eastmond...depending on opposition etc.

Who says JJ is the main OC? He was terrible last year, actually played some wing and 15 for Irish and pretty average on the England tour. I'd imagine centres will remain as Banahan and Eastmond, with Williams and JJ challenging. All 4 are different options, so it might be a rotation based on opposition / gameplan / weather

Agulla will be away for the 4Ns as well at the start, don't forget. It's good to have options in depth

I rate Joseph...he's had a bad year, but hopefully he can bounce back to his best this season.

You guys certainly have some options all over the team now...good position to be in.

You might actually give us a bit of a game up here..;)

Bathite wrote:Who says JJ is the main OC? He was terrible last year, actually played some wing and 15 for Irish and pretty average on the England tour. I'd imagine centres will remain as Banahan and Eastmond, with Williams and JJ challenging. All 4 are different options, so it might be a rotation based on opposition / gameplan / weather

Furthermore, if you have a back line of Heathcote/Ford, Eastmond and Joseph, it may be electric, but there's no balance in terms of a crash ball merchant. I wouldn't be surprised if Banners ends up playing the most games out of any centre for you guys. I'd personally prefer Eastmond at OC, he could still step into 1st/2nd receiver, but at OC he'd get the space to use his footwork. I was at the Bath Chiefs game last year when Eastmond was on the wing, but at just about every set piece he lined up at OC with Williams going out to wing and I thought he was exceptional.

Bathite I don't see the point of signing a specialist 13 for I expect quite a nice salary just to not use him or underutilise him.


I thought Banahan might be used from the bench as a good impact player who can cover centre and wing.

If Joseph doesn't fit the hype then Banahan can fill in.

Given Ford's ability to bring runners from the pack onto the ball flat on the gain line then Bath might not need a boshing centre. They didn't have one when Ford led the under 20s to the JWC final.

Ford/Henson/Eastmond could be a viable midfield. Get Garvey, Opie, Fearns, Attwood etc powering through off of the shoulder of Ford it should work.

beshocked wrote:Bathite I don't see the point of signing a specialist 13 for I expect quite a nice salary just to not use him or underutilise him.


I thought Banahan might be used from the bench as a good impact player who can cover centre and wing.

If Joseph doesn't fit the hype then Banahan can fill in.

For squad depth, he won't start every game. Much like Barritt, Tomkins and Bosch (covers 10 and 15) won't start every game, we'll have Eastmond (covers wing) , Banahan (covers wing) and Joseph rotating.

No one deserves to come straight into the starting lineup based on hype, he's underperformed recently, so he will have to fight for the 13 shirt, which can only be good for the club. There's also the likelihood that either or both of Eastmond or Joseph might be away with England and you also have injuries to contend with. It makes sense to have 4 good centre options. Seems pretty obvious to me

Opie????

Louw is the only forward I can think of with 4 a 4 letter name...

On the centres, I would hope that the mix of Henson, Williams, Banahan, JJ, Eastmond and Rokodugni offers a real blend of power, distribution and pace, which should enable a bit of a horses for courses type of selection and be useful through a long season and differing conditions.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Given Ford's ability to bring runners from the pack onto the ball flat on the gain line then Bath might not need a boshing centre. They didn't have one when Ford led the under 20s to the JWC final.

Ford/Henson/Eastmond could be a viable midfield. Get Garvey, Opie, Fearns, Attwood etc powering through off of the shoulder of Ford it should work.

But that's not going to work all the time. As your team so wonderfully showed Glaws in the 07 final, if there is no bulk in the backline it is easy to be steam rolled! Although Ford would have done a better job tackling Tuilagi than Lamb did

All the best sides will have balance and can turn to plan B mid-game, so despite Ford's ability to bring forwards into play, a larger centre will give him more options. Despite what has been said about Gold, there is no doubt he has brought a strength in depth to Bath which has been lacking in recent years. I feel less confident of turning up to games with a block of Double Gloucester to give to my pal from Bath now...

Fair enough Bathite.

By the way who are your lineout jumpers? Who will you turn to run the lineout?

Hasnt Attwood been leading the lineout recently...

Yeah, it was Hooper but since slipping down to 3rd/4th choice Attwood took over and I would think that would continue, especially as the lineout seemed to go ok in Argentina.

Sorry my phone rebelled and decided Louw wasn't in It's dictionary.

Henson and Eastmond are unlikely to be physically bullied in defence. Rabeni and Tuilagi also lined up on the wings in the 2007 final and Bath could cause plenty of damage bringing Biggs, Banahan, Roko... and Agulla in off the wing. With the entire midfield capable of playmaking and both centres perfectly happy operating in traffic you could have options. Watson is a fairly physical option at fullback if you go with him over Abendanon at the back.

A physical presence is generally required somewhere in the backline, doesn't always have to be at centre. Especially if you have two centres who are competent in defence.

Fixtures are out and perhaps a sign of things to come with the tv coverage but three friday night fixtures including Glaws is not how I want my ST to be treated. Although I have signed up for BT broadband - which has some free tv option.......

The run in is not as daunting as last season, but the Stoop has not been a happy hunting ground in recent seasons.

Anyway something to look forward to, once this Lions farce is out the way.

Falcons away will be a tough 1st game.

I really don't like friday games.

VictorU3 wrote:Falcons away will be a tough 1st game.

I really don't like friday games.

Is that because they only let you out at weekends?  

We always have an away game first up due to the Rec not being ready. Fairly tough fixture list I think, Newcastle away followed by Leicester and Sarries will be a real test. Worcester and Exeter during the AI's will be tough too as as it stands Lancaster doesnt look like calling up many/any from either of them, and we could be missing a few, especially up front.

Surely that should read

'Is that because she only lets you out at weekends? '

VictorU3 wrote:Surely that should read

'Is that because she only lets you out at weekends? '

I know that feeling  

You guys are allowed out at weekends?

Surely Falcons is the easiest possible start to the season? Sarries, tigers, northampton, quins would be a tough first game, falcons (in theory if we are indeed pushing for top 4) shouldn't be that hard after the first 40 minutes. Unless Richards trys to play 16 men, shaves a gorilla and puts a number 3 shirt on him or trys any other wiley old tricks.

Bathman_in_London wrote:You guys are allowed out at weekends?

Only for good behaviour  

sirtidychris wrote:Surely Falcons is the easiest possible start to the season? Sarries, tigers, northampton, quins would be a tough first game, falcons (in theory if we are indeed pushing for top 4) shouldn't be that hard after the first 40 minutes. Unless Richards trys to play 16 men, shaves a gorilla and puts a number 3 shirt on him or trys any other wiley old tricks.

If it was at home I agree but away...

1st game of the season is a potential pitfall. Bath would be expected to win but Newcastle will be the unknown quantity.

Bath must not underestimate Newcastle.

Dunno, with no gopperth,no hudson and no golding they are weaker. I agree they wont be a walkover and on a wet day they have a typical dean richards abrasive set of forwards, but bath have a monster set of forwards of now, brimming with internationals and real pace and guile out wide. I would want 15 points,