Munster Financial Worries

Having seen todays news that Munster are changing sponsorship from Toyota's €2,000,000 per year down to about a million per year with new sponsor Bank of Ireland I had intended to do a quick write up of a worrying financial situation in Munster Rugby.

I've seen though on one of the forums another like minded fan has already done so in a more articulate way than I could. I've included his article below and I share the concerns he raises.

"Munster are in financial difficulty – there is no more beating around the bush about it. Previously these financial issues were something that were buried deep in notes and sub notes of the IRFU annual accounts yet now they are looming large for all fans to see.

The main issue we are now seeing is that these financial issues are now impacting the on-field activities of Munster Rugby. We have seen players go on loan to save costs, we no longer have a scrum coach due to financial reasons, we are struggling to compete with our HEC competitors for signings (will we even use all our NIQ spots next season?) and last season we were outside our day to day budget by over 1 million euros. It also looks like the new jersey sponsorship deal will result in a drop of over 750k per annum as well. Jim Williams spoke out years ago about the madness of a players training separately in two different bases, Tony McGahan supposedly had it written into his contract that the training base issue would be addressed yet it seems it was huge financial pressure not the best interests of the playing squad that forced the decision to chose UL.

Sending experienced players, on what one has to assume are high provincial level wages, on loan is a smart tactic and was used last season when the day to day running costs first became an issue. It became apparent it was required again this season and it meant that we had to register an extra scrum half for the knock out stages of the HEC instead of a ready made impact player like CJ Stander. Paul MacCarthy is someone who I was very critical of previously but to be fair to him the Munster scrum has made huge improvements in the last two seasons. We are now entering a new era how scrums will work. No longer is it about the timing of the hit but with the new rules of binding before the second rows join it means a much greater emphasis on the technical demands of the props and the scrum as a whole. Munster are now left to work on these new rules with no scrum specialist. Paul Mac’s wages may have been paid by MRSC funding but the simple fact is that Munster have decided that they need to make cuts and this is one of them.

We have one stadium in Limerick that we can’t afford repayments on and yet due political issues we are looking to upgrade a second stadium? In 2007 a loan of 11.5 million euro was taken out by the branch from the IRFU to pay for the MB’s half of redeveloping Thomond Park. I can’t find much on how they intended to pay off this loan apart from the 10 year tickets. Munster have consistently failed to meet the repayment schedule since 2008 and in some years didn’t even make a payment. Currently that loan stands at 10.3 million euro and according to the IRFU annual accounts Munster should have repayed 4.3 million by April 2013. Given the current climate I really can’t see an appetite for a further sale of 10 year tickets and given our already poor financial status I would argue that the IRFU would be likely to get 100% control of TP in the very near future (IRFU loan is due in full by 30th April 2017).

In my opinion this mess really started with the redevelopment of Thomond Park. This is not about Cork versus Limerick but about the financial model that would be used going forward from that point in time. At the time the Supporters Clubs had somewhere in the region of 8k members and a so called promise from to extend full membership to 10k MRSC members. Now from a financial point of view that would have made a lot of sense. A 26k stadium and 10k fans who at the start of the season would stump up a membership fee and pay for their League and Cup season tickets. Instead the politics of Munster rugby took over and the clubs wanted to keep their “exclusive” chicken and chips in a basket HEC gameday fundraisers. Little did they realise that the 26k would cope with demand for all but a few games and that the real corporate clients and those willing to pay money for dinner and drinks would be served by Munster Rugby themselves in the new corporate facilities. The clubs couldn’t expand their chicken in a basket fund raisers and the branch continued to ignore the full revenue potential of the supporters club.

This mess is part driven by the current economic climate but it also has an awful lot to do with internal branch politics. To me it seems like a lack of strong leadership to sort out these internal issues and they have now been forced into action purely due to the financial position Munster are in. The fact that despite the need for a 1.5/2 million euro cut in day to day costs over 2 seasons(1 million loss last year and the change in sponsorship deal), the Thomond Park loan that we are unable to service, Munster continue to spend money on redeveloping a second stadium that limits income due to size is just a crazy decision.

The really sad thing is that brains trust have committed the cardinal sin of allowing off field matters affect on field resources and either people need to fix this very very quickly or step aside and ensure that people who can make these changes are appointed in their place."

I can't but help agree. Munster's decision making has been extremely poor mainly plagued by politics. I think our digital marketing has been very poor in comparison with Leinster who do the whole social media scene better than we do and our lack of interest in the Pro 12 isn't acceptable in terms of putting bums on seats. Above all else we have been tinkering around with our dual training centres and developing two stadia.

I worry for our future financially.

Is Ravenhill not owned by the IRFU?
Whats the issue if the IRFU owned Thomond?

Kingshu wrote:Is Ravenhill not owned by the IRFU?
Whats the issue if the IRFU owned Thomond?

It further minimises our income and means we would need to provide some form of rent.

The idea was that we own Thomond Park and by 2017 would be living with no rent or loans. We'd routintely bring in exhibition games and concerts during the Summer months and it would be something that makes money for us rather than costing us money.

The IRFU gave us a loan to redevelop it. If we do not repay the loan then it will set us back further.

I had no idea things were that bad,it really doesn't bode well and I'd hope the IRFU wouldn't take ownership of Thomond unless it was absolutely necessary.Munster were the flagship of Irish rugby for so long that they should be helped out if at all possible.

Who are the people that run things at Munster and how competent are they?Would Munster benefit from a change at the top,mabe the IRFU would be more willing to help out if they felt that the money would be used properly,similar to when Humphries took over at Ulster.

red_stag wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Is Ravenhill not owned by the IRFU?
Whats the issue if the IRFU owned Thomond?

It further minimises our income and means we would need to provide some form of rent.

The idea was that we own Thomond Park and by 2017 would be living with no rent or loans. We'd routintely bring in exhibition games and concerts during the Summer months and it would be something that makes money for us rather than costing us money.

The IRFU gave us a loan to redevelop it. If we do not repay the loan then it will set us back further.

Good news for Connacht. Maybe they will be promoted to third province while Munster sorts their sh1t out.

ASLS,

The problem is that the people at the top for a long long time hadn't the stones to just say.

Munster train exclusively in Cork. They play exclusively in Limerick.

Trying to please everyone doesnt work.

I didn't realise that the Toyota deal was so much better than the new BOI one. I wonder do BOI sponsor the 3 provinces the same amount?

To be fair, when the IRFU thought Ulster were being badly run in the mid-00's, Ulster funding was reducded untill Humph's came along and put the house in order.

Will the same happen Munster? or are the IRFU happy that the house is in order and are willing to extend the loan for Munster?

To be honest it looks like Munster may be heading the way Ulster have just come out of.

Thats why Peter Stringer has been on loan at Bath for so long - we can't afford his wages.

Munster's funding definately won't be reduced. The IRFU are getting an estimated 4million from this lions tour, so there is no shortage of money.

Crikey. Bad news events come along like London buses don't they?

Is HEC qualification now the new relegation?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Munster's funding definately won't be reduced. The IRFU are getting an estimated 4million from this lions tour, so there is no shortage of money.

Sweet. Plus the IRFU get extra money again next year cause Connacht will be in the Heino. True?

red_stag wrote:ASLS,

The problem is that the people at the top for a long long time hadn't the stones to just say.

Munster train exclusively in Cork. They play exclusively in Limerick.

Trying to please everyone doesnt work.

How much extra did the 2 training bases cost Munster.Was it really a Celtic Tiger (does that deserve caps?) extravegance in the professional age?

red_stag wrote:Thats why Peter Stringer has been on loan at Bath for so long - we can't afford his wages.

Funny but I think he would have been a perfect choice for making Penney's plans this year more viable, more potent, and I think Munster have shot themselves in the foot when intimating to Stringer that he wasn't part of their plans.

So maybe he was too high a price but maybe the extra value he would have brought to the Pro12 and HC, added to Penney's 'new' approach, would have balanced out? Who knows. But I think Stringer was gone just when he might have been even more effective for Munster than ever before.

RS the training issue will cut costs but it is a red herring. The problem is simple economics.

This is about decisions made in the past which have long standing consequences.

1. Deciding to develop Thomond Park exclusively and moving to one centre.
This made sense at the time, Musgrave park was a wreck and the old Thomond was where the HC was being played. All was well, big crowds etc Munster were doing great won two HCs always in the mix.

2. Ticketing - Going the old traditional route for the big games of allocating tickets through the clubs as first preference, supporters club as second preference and general public last

Again given how well Munster were doing this seemed to work out.

Now the consequences.

Ticketing - Leinster have cultivated the general public by making access to tickets easier. Even since before the good times in 2010 they have been slowly growing their support base by allowing the general public easy access to the supporters club and access to HC tickets in particular. This has meant they have increased the size of their CORE base of supporters by moving away from the traditional clubs route.

In Munster by maintaining the traditional route for tickets through the clubs has limited the growth of the core fan base. Those that were not club members found it hard to get tickets for home HC games, once the good times came to a halt and a % of the club members lost interest there was no other core loyal support base to turn to. This is evidenced by the last two years in terms of how easy it is to get HC tickets. The supporters club is still limited.

Effect is no cultivated support base outside of the traditional base. Leinster have done a brilliant job at making Leinster Rugby accessible to all.

As for the exclusivity of Thomond. You can take this as a Cork v Limerick thing if you want but based on Economics 101 and taken in context with the Ticketing fiasco...

In effect all Munster games are played in Thomond give or take one or two. So here are the problems with this.
1. Ticket availability as per previous point and lack of interest.
2. Population of Cork Built up Area = 300K. Pop of Limerick = 90K
3. Pop of Cork County = 40% of Munster.
4. Economic downturn
5. Ability to grow ticket sales.

So a few years ago everything moves to Thomond, most people happy with this...but
now with our current economic situation we have the fact that the largest market/centre of population for Munster rugby is not being served first class rugby. The economic downturn means that getting to Thomond is less of an attraction, the alickadoos from Cork Con alone only make up a small %. With a fairly small population the ability to grow ticket sales alone in the limerick region is small.
= no loyal base of supporters.
= no market for growing support base or getting more casual sales to grow this base..no market to aim at...if you get a 5% interest in getting people to come to rugby matches...
5% of 300K = 15K
5% of 90K = 4.5K

In effect the figures don't stack up.

Secondly from the traditional point of view of which as you know I have a strong view on. Munster is a two centre team (I personally don't care where they train but I do care where they play as do a lot of people I know). Centring this in Limerick already has consequences and long term this could be disastrous.

Munster like the other 3 provinces were blessed with having an existing geographical region with a long history when pro rugby came along.

They have however been cursed with this dual axis Cork / Limerick issue which needs to be sorted once and for all.

I also agree that Munster have never really given the Pro12 the respect it deserves.

When we were knocked out of the HC a couple of seasons ago by Toulon ROG announced that that was the end of Munster's season.

Contrast that with how Leinster have performed since their HC exit.

We've got to get past this 'the Heiniken Cup is everything' attitude and start trying to sell the Pro12 as a competition worth attending.

As one of the world's top rugby brands surely it should be possible to get 20K + for each home game.

The fact that our pre-match routine (Arcana, opera singers etc) hasn't changed since the stadium opened 5 years ago tells me that not enough thought is being put into making each game an occasion and worth attending.

How far is it from Cork to Limerick. An hour or so. You'd want to be a fairly rubbish fan not to be able to make that journey every so often.

Problem is now that Munster arent so sucessful the sunshine fans have gone back to supporting GAA and Leinster.

GunsGerms wrote:How far is it from Cork to Limerick. An hour or so. You'd want to be a fairly rubbish fan not to be able to make that journey every so often.

Problem is now that Munster arent so sucessful the sunshine fans have gone back to supporting GAA and Leinster.

Guns I suggest take a break from the wumming.

red_stag wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:How far is it from Cork to Limerick? An hour or so. You'd want to be a fairly rubbish fan not to be able to make that journey every so often.

Problem is now that Munster arent so sucessful the sunshine fans have gone back to supporting GAA and Leinster.

Guns I suggest take a break from the wumming.

Was a fair question and observation.

Crikey. Bad news events come along like London buses don't they?

Is HEC qualification now the new relegation?

GunsGerms wrote:How far is it from Cork to Limerick. An hour or so. You'd want to be a fairly rubbish fan not to be able to make that journey every so often.

Problem is now that Munster arent so sucessful the sunshine fans have gone back to supporting GAA and Leinster.

In fairness Cork is fairly big so it depends on where exactly in the county you're starting from.Also whether we like it or not the sunshine supporters are a huge element in filling stadiums and they are the people less likely to bother making the journey,the population of Cork is a huge part of Munsters market and they will find it harder to attract new or floating fans because of the journey.

Its only an hour from Cork to Limerick. Theres a motorway inbetween. You can get a train too. Cant you? Maybe Munster rugby need to team up with Irish rail and get a rail and match ticket incentive going. Everyone wins, except Munster on the pitch probably.

Think some fans are looking for excuses.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:How far is it from Cork to Limerick. An hour or so. You'd want to be a fairly rubbish fan not to be able to make that journey every so often.

Problem is now that Munster arent so sucessful the sunshine fans have gone back to supporting GAA and Leinster.

In fairness Cork is fairly big so it depends on where exactly in the county you're starting from.Also whether we like it or not the sunshine supporters are a huge element in filling stadiums and they are the people less likely to bother making the journey,the population of Cork is a huge part of Munsters market and they will find it harder to attract new or floating fans because of the journey.

Its a fair question but again its a question of growing a loyal fan base and accessibility. Munster did not do that as Leinster have end of story. Its not a question of fair weather fans its that the fans that followed them abroad for example in the 2000 - 2008 era were shafted when it came to getting tickets for home games for the HC because of the way tickets were distributed. In the end what do you expect them to do suddenly get up and go to a league game (no matter where they are) when they will not get a ticket for the big games.

As for the Cork to Limerick journey its about an hour and 20 on a big match day. So add about €20 euro in terms of cost (at a minimum). Problem is the Greater Cork area taking all the commuter towns etc into account is about 370K population. The casual or the person who would like to go to a game is limited.

Its different for Leinster with good access and most of the population in the Kildare/Meath area with good accessibility or already working in Dublin.

You are right about the GAA. Cork is a sports mad county/city we love all sports but if say the hurlers do well this year (or even the Limerick hurlers) Rugby will lose more followers for the very reason that access to the games is more difficult.

Leinster have also been lucky enough to have access to the Lansdowne Road so for our really big matches Munster,Clermont,Bath we have been able to accommodate everyone.Thomond seems to be a little bit too big for general use yet too small for the 3 or 4 really massive games they have each year.

It is really hard to run a professional team profitably isnt it? Interesting article Stag.

Now I have never been to Ireland and so can't comment on the Cork/Limerick thing really, although it does seem a bit odd.

Given the debt is basically due to the stadium upgrade, I would presume that the assumptions to go with the apprasial (ie ticketing, merchandise etc.) were made during Munster most successful period when they were one of if not the biggest club in Europe. So now the team has dipped on the field support/interest has dropped off a bit with the inevitable cashflow implications. As Guns says above, its probably the 'fairweather' fans who are the cause of this drop in income.

Munster had an opportunity to really make itself 'the' team in Ireland I think in terms of off-field expansion, but maybe missed the boat there a bit and Leinster are showing them what should/could have been done.

I'm rambling here a bit, but through work having come across a lot of property/development loans from c.2007 to Irish developers which are pretty brutal in terms of loan size to asset value and interest rates, am I right in thinking that they wouldnt have got a loan like that had they gone through the same process now?

What I mean is, they got a loan in the time pre the financial crash and also pre their form crash (although nowhere near as drastic!), so the state of the team is nothing like what was imagined in 2007.

Its only an hour from Cork to Limerick. Theres a motorway inbetween.

Is there??

Since when??

Stop moaning Bathman, and just get over to Ireland. It's Paradise...with rain.... and roads going nowhere, with signs pointing to the sky, and dogs driving tractors. Dalíesque

Simple solution would be to tempt one of Munster's tycoons to invest in Munster rugby. JP McManus, John Magnier.

Magnier has/had a 30% stake in ManU while McManus has investments in Limerick GAA teams.

Surely Munster needs to organise a "gathering" of their own and get some wealthy heads together.

Mind you Munster is wholly owned by the IRFU isnt it? Therefore you would have to invest in the IRFU to invest in Munster. Am I right?

MunsterMac wrote:

Its only an hour from Cork to Limerick. Theres a motorway inbetween.

Is there??

Since when??

Since I got lost trying to get to Portmagee and ended up on the wrong road. Maybe there isnt but the roads seem ok no?

I always thought that Munster based themselves more in Limerick than Cork is becuase Limerick has the bigger Rugby following.

Ok Cork is bigger but I thought Limerick had the bigger amount of Rugby fans?

Just because Cork is a bigger city doesn't mean it will attract more fans, I imagined it like Cork was a bit like Edinburgh/Glasgow, (bigger populations but not as intrested in rugby as they are GAA and football) and Limerick is like llanelli, smaller population but rugby is the main sport. Scarlets get bigger crowds than Glasgow/Edinburgh, and I guessed Munster thought the better one to attract fans was Limerick.

SecretFly wrote:Stop moaning Bathman, and just get over to Ireland. It's Paradise...with rain.... and roads going nowhere, with signs pointing to the sky, and dogs driving tractors. Dalíesque

Right you've sold it to me. If you can promise me a clock hanging over a tree branch I'll visit.

This is both bad and sad news. You are now committed to Thomond Park as your main base, no getting around it- can Musgrave Park be sold off? In this economy? There's no other professional side in Europe that are considering maintaining and developing two stadiums that I'm aware of- correct me if I'm wrong. Even clubs with wealthy benefactors. For an internal political gesture, its a very extravagant way to spend money.

Leinster and Ulster are very lucky to be based in large cities. We're a lot less at the mercy of the willingness of fans to travel on matchdays. I somewhat agree with DODs sentiment that from a business point of view it may have made sense to look at trying to cultivate your base in the biggest urban centre in Munster in the early days of professionalism.

It's sad to say that because I've been to Limerick on a big match day and its a very special and unique experience that not very many other teams can match.

Notch wrote:This is both bad and sad news. You are now committed to Thomond Park as your main base, no getting around it- can Musgrave Park be sold off?

See yesterdays announcement:
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/11954.php

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:This is both bad and sad news. You are now committed to Thomond Park as your main base, no getting around it- can Musgrave Park be sold off?

See yesterdays announcement:
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/11954.php

Good news. Sure it will be needed for Irelands sucessful 2023 RWC bid.

Anyone know exactly how the financing of the provinces works? Would I be right is saying that the Munster Branch is part of the IRFU and so any losses Munster incurs are incurred by the IRFU. Therefore if Munster arent making money this could have a knock on effect for all provinces?

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:This is both bad and sad news. You are now committed to Thomond Park as your main base, no getting around it- can Musgrave Park be sold off?

See yesterdays announcement:
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/11954.php

About bloody time

RE the amount of rugby supporters in Cork v Limerick. While its strong in Limerick City there is at least an equivalent amount if not more hardcore support in Cork City based on the amount of clubs in each.

DOD wrote:
In effect all Munster games are played in Thomond give or take one or two. So here are the problems with this.
1. Ticket availability as per previous point and lack of interest.
2. Population of Cork Built up Area = 300K. Pop of Limerick = 90K
3. Pop of Cork County = 40% of Munster.
4. Economic downturn
5. Ability to grow ticket sales.

So a few years ago everything moves to Thomond, most people happy with this...but
now with our current economic situation we have the fact that the largest market/centre of population for Munster rugby is not being served first class rugby. The economic downturn means that getting to Thomond is less of an attraction, the alickadoos from Cork Con alone only make up a small %. With a fairly small population the ability to grow ticket sales alone in the limerick region is small.
= no loyal base of supporters.
= no market for growing support base or getting more casual sales to grow this base..no market to aim at...if you get a 5% interest in getting people to come to rugby matches...
5% of 300K = 15K
5% of 90K = 4.5K

In effect the figures don't stack up.

Secondly from the traditional point of view of which as you know I have a strong view on. Munster is a two centre team (I personally don't care where they train but I do care where they play as do a lot of people I know). Centring this in Limerick already has consequences and long term this could be disastrous.

That sums it up DOD. The people running Munster promised that they'd build 2 stadiums of similar capacity but they built Thomond park bigger than planned and done nothing in Cork. They have effectively cut off the biggest population center from rugby in Munster.

Cork were getting crowds as big or bigger than Limerick in the early days of the Celtic league and it had more potential to grow but those running Munster chose Limerick. No

No investment = no growth = no money in the future. The chickens are coming home to roost!

Theres talk on Munster fans of creating a new Cork based, South Munster team in the future.


For me to get to Thomond park is about a 5 hour round trip. Arriving home usually after midnight. For that reason I can't go to many games.

Kingshu wrote:I always thought that Munster based themselves more in Limerick than Cork is becuase Limerick has the bigger Rugby following.

Ok Cork is bigger but I thought Limerick had the bigger amount of Rugby fans?

Just because Cork is a bigger city doesn't mean it will attract more fans, I imagined it like Cork was a bit like Edinburgh/Glasgow, (bigger populations but not as intrested in rugby as they are GAA and football) and Limerick is like llanelli, smaller population but rugby is the main sport. Scarlets get bigger crowds than Glasgow/Edinburgh, and I guessed Munster thought the better one to attract fans was Limerick.

Most of the players come from Cork and also most of the 10 year season tickets sold to fund Thomond came from Cork.

profitius wrote:
Theres talk on Munster fans of creating a new Cork based, South Munster team in the future.

Oh dear. It's not a good idea to have two weak, emasculated Munster teams.

We need to be smarter with our use of Thomond v Musgrave.

Last season we had Connacht playing in Cork City. It is about 80 minutes from Galway to Limerick. It is at least double that to travel to Cork. I'd say thats a game not suited to it.

I'd happily have a big game like Ulster or Ospreys etc in Musgrave during the season. It is important not to alienate fans.

profitius wrote:

DOD wrote:
In effect all Munster games are played in Thomond give or take one or two. So here are the problems with this.
1. Ticket availability as per previous point and lack of interest.
2. Population of Cork Built up Area = 300K. Pop of Limerick = 90K
3. Pop of Cork County = 40% of Munster.
4. Economic downturn
5. Ability to grow ticket sales.

So a few years ago everything moves to Thomond, most people happy with this...but
now with our current economic situation we have the fact that the largest market/centre of population for Munster rugby is not being served first class rugby. The economic downturn means that getting to Thomond is less of an attraction, the alickadoos from Cork Con alone only make up a small %. With a fairly small population the ability to grow ticket sales alone in the limerick region is small.
= no loyal base of supporters.
= no market for growing support base or getting more casual sales to grow this base..no market to aim at...if you get a 5% interest in getting people to come to rugby matches...
5% of 300K = 15K
5% of 90K = 4.5K

In effect the figures don't stack up.

Secondly from the traditional point of view of which as you know I have a strong view on. Munster is a two centre team (I personally don't care where they train but I do care where they play as do a lot of people I know). Centring this in Limerick already has consequences and long term this could be disastrous.

That sums it up DOD. The people running Munster promised that they'd build 2 stadiums of similar capacity but they built Thomond park bigger than planned and done nothing in Cork. They have effectively cut off the biggest population center from rugby in Munster.

Cork were getting crowds as big or bigger than Limerick in the early days of the Celtic league and it had more potential to grow but those running Munster chose Limerick. No

No investment = no growth = no money in the future. The chickens are coming home to roost!

Theres talk on Munster fans of creating a new Cork based, South Munster team in the future.


For me to get to Thomond park is about a 5 hour round trip. Arriving home usually after midnight. For that reason I can't go to many games.

The best thing is the recent myth as to fortress thomond park when HC was moved there around 2003 (even though in all competitions or games played up to that point our record in Cork was better than in Limerick). The whole reason was Thomond was chosen was because it was less dilapidated than Musgrave which actually had serious safety issues.

Notch wrote:

profitius wrote:
Theres talk on Munster fans of creating a new Cork based, South Munster team in the future.

Oh dear. It's not a good idea to have two weak, emasculated Munster teams.

It would be a good idea for Ireland and Cork rugby. Unless a second division of the pro 12 comes around I can't see it happening.

If they could grow the game in Cork then I don't see why that team couldn't compete with the best. Galway is smaller than Limerick and Cork.

The best thing is the recent myth as to fortress thomond park

To be fair Munster's record at TP is pretty good.

We've only lost 5 in all competitions there in the last 3 seasons.

We lost 2 out of 3 in MP this season.

Galway is smaller than Limerick and Cork.

Galway City is bigger than Limerick City.

It should be said that although the financial side of things are not looking great, the playing side of things is looking rosey. Munster have a young team and will continue to improve for the foreseeable future as long as they don't lose players. You have the overall squad further strengthened next season.

The big road block will be the relative inexperience of the squad. Thats what happens when you miss out on a generation of players like Munster did. Theres a big gap between this new generation which includes Sherry, POM, Kilcoyne etc and the older one which includes POC and DOC.

MunsterMac wrote:

Galway is smaller than Limerick and Cork.

Galway City is bigger than Limerick City.

Yes indeed it is. They're both smaller than Cork put together and they both have professional rugby teams while Cork has none. The IRFU has to do something about that.

profitius wrote:It should be said that although the financial side of things are not looking great, the playing side of things is looking rosey. Munster have a young team and will continue to improve for the foreseeable future as long as they don't lose players. You have the overall squad further strengthened next season.

The big road block will be the relative inexperience of the squad. Thats what happens when you miss out on a generation of players like Munster did. Theres a big gap between this new generation which includes Sherry, POM, Kilcoyne etc and the older one which includes POC and DOC.

MunsterMac wrote:

Galway is smaller than Limerick and Cork.

Galway City is bigger than Limerick City.

Yes indeed it is. They're both smaller than Cork put together and they both have professional rugby teams while Cork has none. The IRFU has to do something about that.

It ain't all that long ago that the IRFU were trying to get rid of Connacht as a first class team professional so can't see them going along with a fifth Irish team based out of Cork. Could Ireland support five professional teams? Doubtful!

I'd like to see the Limerick v Cork rivalry restored that bit more. Not just Cork based fans having to whinge about getting the dregs of the season.

Pre Season Friendlies, British & Irish Cup and the runt games of the Pro 12 won't keep people happy.

I'd really like it if we could make it truly meaningful. I remember being around 2001-2002 when there were big games in Thomond Park people talking about how we have to show the Cork lads that we have great support up here in Limerick and I'm sure it was the same in Cork when they used to get top fixtures.

That rivalry fed Munster in the early days of professionalism and I'd hate to see it lost.

Your argument is simplistic as is the original poster you have copied from. Someone made bad decisions along the line, with regards to ticketing policy, the size of thomond and the speed of redevelopment of Musgrave park.

In pure financial and marketing terms is was less than far sighted. As profitius said the chickens are coming home to roost. It looks like the citizens of limerick will have a big shiny but mostly empty shed to look at...more good Celtic tiger planning

DOD wrote:Your argument is simplistic as is the original poster you have copied from. Someone made bad decisions along the line, with regards to ticketing policy, the size of thomond and the speed of redevelopment of Musgrave park.

In pure financial and marketing terms is was less than far sighted. As profitius said the chickens are coming home to roost. It looks like the citizens of limerick will have a big shiny but mostly empty shed to look at...more good Celtic tiger planning

Whats simplistic? I'm agreeing with you. Munster needed to ensure Cork get big games to keep a big fan base interested. Their decision making has cost them.

However given the hole we are in - we need to figure out how to use Thomond.

It is a bit annoying that there are loads of empty seats for P12 but as has been said its hard to get tickets for big games because you aren't in the right social circles.
Also i think that at the cork games it is mainly cork fans but at the TP games its both.

red_stag wrote:We have one stadium in Limerick that we can’t afford repayments on and yet due political issues we are looking to upgrade a second stadium?

According to a report last week in the Examiner on Thomond Stadium Ltd (link supplied on that thread on Munsterfans):

The accounts disclose that the company received a capital contribution in the amount of €8.9m from the Munster branch of the IRFU in the form of a forgiveness of a long-term liability.

From that I would glean its the IRFU who are in deep Poopie (probably with the Aviva) and have called in their loan on Thomond Park.

Well RS looks like you are getting lots of whinging Cork people (nothing new there). However the concerns are valid. Its not either/or with Limerick no one in Cork views it like that (wish I could say the same for some of the Limerick crowd). If the branch don't get it sorted soon we will be in even more trouble...

Interesting info Sin é.