Wasted potential XV

I think the title speaks for itself, players who have failed to reach their potential either because of injury, attitude or coaching.

I can't think of many forwards but the following team had an enormous amount of potential:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5. Lawes
6.
7.
8. Haskell
9. Cusiter
10. Cipriani
11. Evans
12. Henson
13. Tait
14. Fitzgerald
15. R.Lamont

Bit harsh on Haskell who is a very good player and apparently incredibly hard working. Bit of a dim incident at the world cup obviously but I don't think there's any suggestion that he hasn't done everything to improve.

Tom Rees could be there at 7.

People say that Dan Ward-Smith was meant to be stunning but he never got over his knee injury. Didn't ever see enough of him to vouch for that though.

Also, I heard that Phil Vickery has sadly been forced to retire early. What could have been...

For some reason that's come out quite Wasps-centric despite not being a fan.

Very harsh to include Lawes in my view. He's still young and has put in some pretty decent performances lately and still very much part of the England set-up.

Matt Stevens could go in there, purely because he'd probably have a lot more caps had he not been banned for drugs. Although you could argue that two Lions tours possibly overinflates his abilities as much as anything else.

Richard Blaze was supposed to be a big talent at lock before having to retire, and the two Glaws boys, James Forrester (8) and James Simpson-Daniel (14) could certain have made more of a splash on international rugby had the regimes at the time not preferred to keep it tight and hoof the leather off the ball.

You could possibly add Stephen Ferris (6) to the list as well. It looks like his pro career is basically finished now at 27. In his day a huge player and powerful flanker - had he stayed fit and on form would have won a huge number of additional caps, and probably been on two more Lions tours.

Another potentially harsh addition would be Luke Charteris. Great player, but never seems to be able to stay injury free for long periods. Another I think would have made the Lions had he been fit and fully on form.

Rupeni Caucau without a shadow of a doubt. No player has wasted more talent.

Tom Rees
Morgan Stoddart
Trevor Woodman
Blaze
Forrester
Dan Ward Smith
Tom Varndell
Rupeni Caucauiblanca

Caucau, agreed, is the ultimate waste of talent. Lomu sadly is wasted potential because we never saw his true potential because of his kidney condition which is a frightening thought.

Lauaki for the ABs never came to anything.

You could add perenially injured players like Ferris, Juan Smith and Richard Kahui to that list.

Selection screw ups like Parra, Tait, Lamont brothers, Luke Fitzgerald.

Have them coached by Jake White or Nick Mallett. They don't deserve to be in the international wilderness.

definitely Juan Smith

Yeah Juan Smith, but think its a bit harsh to use 'wasted potential' to describe an injured player, esp since he was a WC winner and Lions series winner.

Depends on how you define wasted potential. Injury robbed Juan Smith of most of his career. That's not a criticism of him. That's lamenting that world rugby was deprived of potentially one of the most talented rugby players. He might have reached that potential in 2007 and 2009 for you but I think rugby is poorer for not having seen more of him.

Contrast that with Caucau who brought that wasted potential on himself.

Both are cases of wasted potential for me. Just for very different reasons.

Could one say Jonny Wilkinson through injury.

red_stag wrote:Could one say Jonny Wilkinson through injury.

I think he probably reached his potential but we just didn't get to see much of him at that level but he has still played in four world cups, two lions tours and won a heineken cup and a world cup and potentially the Top14.

red_stag wrote:Could one say Jonny Wilkinson through injury.

no the guy reached his potential inspite of injury

Also I'd say Wilkinson maximised his talent through ridiculously hard work, I would say that Wilkinson had nowhere near as much pure talent as Cipriani but Wilkinson put in so much work and perfected his techniques contrary to Cipriani who has tried his best to enjoy the benefits of being a rugby player but not to be the best rugby player. From reading Wilkinson's autobiography he had an obsessive mentality and an incredible work ethic on the other hand in Lewis Moody's autobiography he speaks of how Cipriani turned up to his first England training session in a Ferrari and acted as if he was the finished package, Wilkinson never had that attitude he tried to be the best at everything, he was always the fittest player in the squad, tried to replicate Robinson's sidestep and Inga Tuigamala's tackling and as a result became the best player he could possibly be or close to it. Despite not being supremely talented like Dan Carter or Cipriani Wilkinson hard work and attitude meant that he is one of the best players ever and a legend.

Hard-Work beats Talent when Talent doesnt Work Hard!

red_stag wrote:Hard-Work beats Talent when Talent doesnt Work Hard!

And when talent works hard you get this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZEUgEhZWN8

and this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utj2PKEP9Dc

Henson hardly wasted at 12.

2 slams.

Only Dan Parks could have uploaded a Dan Parks tribute to YouTube!

But most of all this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-amuZQFgL4

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Henson hardly wasted at 12.

2 slams.

he is the classic waster, yes he was part of 2 slams but he could have been standout of his generation. injury played it's part with him but his head was never right, it's such a pity that often the greatest talents seem to be combined with such flaky characters

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Henson hardly wasted at 12.

2 slams.

But in 2005 he was 23, he should have been world class but when was the last time you heard him do something good

Kurtley beale seems to be doing a good job of wasting his career at the moment.
I think you could say balshaw didn't fulfil his full potential.
He left for the lions tour with the world at his feet and within a fortnight looked lost.

Stuart Barnes.

He got fed up being left on the bench and twice went into voluntary exile. If he'd persevered, he might have seen more caps. Rob Andrew hit quite a few rough patches - usually when his kicking game fell apart - and Barnes was the obvious alternative. No English outside half in modern times has played flatter than Barnes.

Saw a Scrum 5 programme a few weeks ago featuring Chris Wyatt of Newport, smoked (all kinds of ciggies) like a trouper, drunk like a fish and yet I thought was one of the most naturally skilled locks Wales has ever produced. An immense talent who would never follow the pack and was never a yes man robot (more's the pity)

Newport RFC
Llanelli RFC
Munster RFC
Bourgoin
Aix-en-Provence............. and Wales

He was useless at Munster; one of our worst ever signings. But I agree he looked a very talented player.

red_stag wrote:Rupeni Caucau without a shadow of a doubt. No player has wasted more talent.

Mike Tindall said he was the best player he ever played against.

red_stag wrote:He was useless at Munster; one of our worst ever signings. But I agree he looked a very talented player.

Evening Stag

I didn't realise he even moved to Munster...... not surprised he had some poor games but surprised when you said he was one of your worst signings, (he must be close to 40 now if not over 40), so I must have seen him over 15 years ago and against us he looked pretty damn good, and saw him a few times for Wales and again looked pretty awesome. One of those "old school" players who relied on talent not fitness or conditioning, heard he was a 20 cigs a day guy and I am sure he was drunk on the pitch more often off it!!

Flyhalffactory,

I remember being in school at the time and he came out with some Munster players to do some coaching.

You have to remember the bar is pretty high in Ireland when it comes to second rows, probably more so in Munster.

We had Mick Galway and John Langford (who was probably our best ever signing more than Howlett or anyone like that), then we had O'Connell and O'Callaghan. Even Mick O'Driscoll to a lesser extent.

Wyatt was a big name when he joined us and to be honest I've heard stories that he was enjoying the end of his career. Spent his time boozing, shaggging and simply having the craic.

Wasnt there to work hard. Played about 10 games and left. Dont think he played any European games or against likes of Ulster/Leinster.

In his mind he had put the hard slog in at Llanelli and was looking to enjoy himself. Better suited down in Bourgoin than in Munster.

I think it's pretty unfair to list players who have had to retire early due to injury alongside those who were blessed to stay fit but wasted their talent due to attitude.

A chronically injured player doesn't waste his talent so much as just get a little bit less lucky than the guy who makes it.

red_stag wrote:Flyhalffactory,

I remember being in school at the time and he came out with some Munster players to do some coaching.

You have to remember the bar is pretty high in Ireland when it comes to second rows, probably more so in Munster.

We had Mick Galway and John Langford (who was probably our best ever signing more than Howlett or anyone like that), then we had O'Connell and O'Callaghan. Even Mick O'Driscoll to a lesser extent.

Wyatt was a big name when he joined us and to be honest I've heard stories that he was enjoying the end of his career. Spent his time boozing, shaggging and simply having the craic.

Wasnt there to work hard. Played about 10 games and left. Dont think he played any European games or against likes of Ulster/Leinster.

In his mind he had put the hard slog in at Llanelli and was looking to enjoy himself. Better suited down in Bourgoin than in Munster.

Sounds like you are spot on Stag and agree he is better down in the French air than in the professional environment of Munster , and yes John Langford a bloody good player who probably could have done a tad better for Oz (another who I didn't realise played for you) must be around the same age as Wyatt.

I wouldn't put Stoddard in there as wasted potential he was just unlucky with injury I would definately put one man riot Wyatt in there though.

he had bags of potential but liked the fags and booze to much for a pro.

do wasted talent means not getting caps early then it has to be Richard hibbard

ChequeredJersey wrote:Tom Rees
Morgan Stoddart
Trevor Woodman
Blaze
Forrester
Dan Ward Smith
Tom Varndell
Rupeni Caucauiblanca

Stuart Abbott
Lesly Vanikolo
Chev Walker
Paul Henry
Andy Farrell - as a league player
Simpson Daniel

Tom Evans
Joe Ansbro
Iestin Harris (spelling?)
Nic Duncombe
Murphy - could have had so many more Ireland caps
Shaw - could have had many more England caps

123456789 wrote:

red_stag wrote:Could one say Jonny Wilkinson through injury.

I think he probably reached his potential but we just didn't get to see much of him at that level but he has still played in four world cups, two lions tours and won a heineken cup and a world cup and potentially the Top14.

He won the English Premiership too

I suppose wasted potential is largely split into those who got injured regularly or at the wrong time, or those who were too lazy too really work to be the best.

A few English Injury contenders:

James Forrester
Simpson Daniel
Stuart Abbott
Wilkinson (I know he has still been very successful, but without all those injuries surely Carter would still be way behind him in the points total)
David Rees


Balshaw was a player who when he first appeared was very very good. At the time (2000) England had been playing with Mr Steady Matt Perry at FB and this young attacking threat appeared from nowhere. Sadly after the Lions 2001 he never seemed to get back up to those heights again.

As mentioned above, if Stuart Barnes hadnt been such a drama queen he could have had a lot more caps.

Nic Duncombe has to be the biggest waste of talent for England in recent times, tragic.

Sergio Parisse, at club level.

Chris Ashton.

Delon/Steffon Armitage at International level.

Matthew Tait although his starting to shine for Leicester.

JSD.

Forwards:

Bobby Skinstad. What a player but really allowed his career to fizzle out.

Backs:

Luke Fitz

Henson

Bobby Skinstad is an interesting call, agreed, he allowed it to fizzle out and was playing amateur league rugby in London for a while. But then he went from that to Super rugby and won the World cup in 2007, so he career wasnt a total disaster! A subject for another thread, but is that the best rags to riches type story of a pro rugby player?

Bathman_in_London wrote:Bobby Skinstad is an interesting call, agreed, he allowed it to fizzle out and was playing amateur league rugby in London for a while. But then he went from that to Super rugby and won the World cup in 2007, so he career wasnt a total disaster! A subject for another thread, but is that the best rags to riches type story of a pro rugby player?

Skinstad wasnt really that involved with the '07 squad was he? He could have been ridiculous but his career just didnt take off. What a talent.

In some ways one of my favorite players of all time was a bit of a wasted talent because he was unbelievably left out of the 1993 Lions tour for Ian Hunter. Anyone even remember who Ian Hunter is now? He also missed the 1997 Lions tour because of a reoccuring injury which ultimatly cut his career tragically short. An unbelievavle talent but didnt get as many international caps and maybe recogintion as he should have.

Who am I talking about?

Topsy Ojo

I think he just played in the easier pool games and was a sub elsewhere, but still, a bit of a step up from Richmond vs Rosslyn park!

I remember Hunter, the Northampton winger? He was always below the Underwoods in the pecking order. Didn't he go on the 1993 tour but have to come home through injury?

Bathman_in_London wrote:I think he just played in the easier pool games and was a sub elsewhere, but still, a bit of a step up from Richmond vs Rosslyn park!

I remember Hunter, the Northampton winger? He was always below the Underwoods in the pecking order. Didn't he go on the 1993 tour but have to come home through injury?

Yes but who did Hunter go on the Lions tour instead of?

GunsGerms wrote:Who am I talking about?

Mike Rayer?

Rugby Fan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Who am I talking about?

Mike Rayer?

Nope. He loved playing against England.

GunsGerms wrote:Nope. He loved playing against England.

Sorry, I was taking the pee. The biggest controversy that year was the original bag of coathangers Simon Geoghegan.

If I remember correctly, it was said afterwards he was left out because Hunter could cover full back as well as wing.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Nope. He loved playing against England.

Sorry, I was taking the pee. The biggest controversy that year was the original bag of coathangers Simon Geoghegan.

If I remember correctly, it was said afterwards he was left out because Hunter could cover full back as well as wing.

What do you mean bag of coat hangers?

GunsGerms wrote:What do you mean bag of coat hangers?

"Like trying to tackle a..." (courtesy B. McLaren)

Ah yes of course. Would love to go for a few pints with Hugh Bladen, Bill McClaren and Philip Matthews. Enlightening.