Did Froch beat Kessler more convincingly than Calzaghe?

IMO I believe he did last night and he was close to stopping Kessler at the end.
In the old days of 15 rounds I believe it would have been a KO/TKO.

Calzaghe fought a better version of Kessler. Fresh and unbeaten. I don't think it was close to being stopped. Lord knows what the ref was doing. I think he saw the red light indicating 10 seconds left.

JC beat a prime Kessler. But it was still a good win.

Does this topic even matter? This is a diminished version of Kessler given his injuries and inactivity.

In addition, the version of Froch that faced Kessler first time round was relatively inexperienced at a professional level as well in comparison to when JC took on Kessler.

Basically, it's not really a worthwhile comparison.

The real question is- who would win out of Froch vs. JC? I still have it JC by decision, but the Cobra would certainly give it his all and run him close. Who do I prefer watching as a fighter? Has to be the Cobra, he's one man who does deserve the fame and fortune due to his willingness to go to war with the best in the division.

As far as Froch v JC goes I believe Calzaghe was the much greater talent and really was exceptional before his hands deserted him and he became more slappy. Froch would be dogged enough to keep Calzaghe honest but I could only see one winner, Joe.

Ward v Calzaghe would be the fight I'd want to see.

Does it matter? After all Froch fought a different MK?

No it wasnt more convincing. No it wasnt close to being stopped, Kessler was ragged because they were swinging away at the end of the last round. Froch hurt him throughout the fight and had him ragged but at no point was he seriously hurt in my view. As others have said, it was an older less mobile version of Kessler. Great performance from Carl, but no it wasnt more impressive than calzaghe's.

Just watched Calzaghe v Kessler on YouTube. Calzaghe was magnificent in that fight. I can't think of any current SMW who could have stuck with the pace Joe set that night, not even Ward. The variety of punches and speed were exceptional, the punch rate ridiculous. Calzaghe looking back on it really was a bit special. He could do just about anything he wanted such was his talent.

Strongback wrote:Just watched Calzaghe v Kessler on YouTube. Calzaghe was magnificent in that fight. I can't think of any current SMW who could have stuck with the pace Joe set that night, not even Ward. The variety of punches and speed were exceptional, the punch rate ridiculous. Calzaghe looking back on it really was a bit special. He could do just about anything he wanted such was his talent.

From what I saw of the Hopkins fight, Calzaghe was reasonably lucky to win.

Calzaghe's best performance was probably against Kessler (who's proven to be a world level fighter), unfortunately there's no one else on his CV that allows us to ascertain how special he was.

Ward beats him convincingly in my eyes.

All Time Great wrote:Does this topic even matter? This is a diminished version of Kessler given his injuries and inactivity.

In addition, the version of Froch that faced Kessler first time round was relatively inexperienced at a professional level as well in comparison to when JC took on Kessler.

Basically, it's not really a worthwhile comparison.

The real question is- who would win out of Froch vs. JC? I still have it JC by decision, but the Cobra would certainly give it his all and run him close. Who do I prefer watching as a fighter? Has to be the Cobra, he's one man who does deserve the fame and fortune due to his willingness to go to war with the best in the division.

Froch was not inexperienced in comparison to Calzaghe at the time of his first meeting with Kessler, less time as a world champion yes, but he had been in with better opposition. Leading up to Kessler 1 he fought Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell, any of which would be stand out wins on Calzaghe's ledger up to his fight against Kessler. An outstanding performance against a limited Jeff Lacy aside and Calzaghe's experience of massive fights was pretty minimal and he'd certainly been in with no one of Kesslers quality.

No.

All Time Great wrote:

Strongback wrote:Just watched Calzaghe v Kessler on YouTube. Calzaghe was magnificent in that fight. I can't think of any current SMW who could have stuck with the pace Joe set that night, not even Ward. The variety of punches and speed were exceptional, the punch rate ridiculous. Calzaghe looking back on it really was a bit special. He could do just about anything he wanted such was his talent.

From what I saw of the Hopkins fight, Calzaghe was reasonably lucky to win.

Calzaghe's best performance was probably against Kessler (who's proven to be a world level fighter), unfortunately there's no one else on his CV that allows us to ascertain how special he was.

Ward beats him convincingly in my eyes.

I scored the Hopkins fight to Bernard by a point. It was a scrappy dull fight and a draw would have been fair.

I'm not so sure about Ward convincingly beating a peak JC. Ward has never faced anything like a full on Calzaghe. The Hopkin's fight might be an indicator of how the fight might go, I think it would be a close run battle.

JC beat a far younger, unbeaten more hungry version of kessler. CF beat a slightly over the hill, injury blighted kessler.

Also calzaghe won his fight a lot easier than froch did.

Only a Froch family member or worshipper posts a thread like this...........

Calzaghe never lost to Kessler so it's irrelevant isn't it...

Did Honey beat Vaca easier than Simon Brown???

Well while people are throwing around excuses for Kessler losing to Froch, how about the injury he carried into the Calzaghe fight?

Both won and won well. Froch may not be as talented as Calzaghe but he has achieved more in his career.

Has he bollox..........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Has he bollox..........

Well that's settled then.

About the same really, Calzaghe wouldn't beat Kessler in Denmark either. On a side, very impressed with Kessler's conduct all the way through, became a fan.

Calzaghe was numero uno so probably still ranks ahead. Carl's got probably the stronger division and could overtake Joe in his next few fights.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Has he bollox..........

Well that's settled then.

When you formulate an argument I'll respond properly..........

As for them being the same..............Really!!.............Ten years at the top..................Hopkins, Lacy, Eubank, Mitchell, a decent Reid, Woodhall and young Kessler........Owned his division and never lost.......

Against a guy with half the time at the top who's beaten Dirrell, Taylor, Pascal an old Johnson, Bute......LOST TWICE!!.......and hasn't dominated a division in the same way or been involved in a superfight!!

Sorry Joe for me all night long.

Ali lost 5 times. Is Marciano better than him?

Everyone Calzaghe fought I think Froch also beats. And Calzaghe didn't have years at the top, he spent them avoiding the big fights fighting guff like Viet.

Mate when two fighters are close.......you need to look at things like time at the top and have they lost ????????

Hoppo is the best win on either record.......

Calzaghe wasn't at the top, he has a belt holder and nothing more. For me fighting top fighters over and over is more important than fighting rubbish over a 10 year period. Guess you are easily pleased.

Ward comfortably beats joe for me. Hoppo made him look pretty ordinary in the first half of the fight and Ward would carry it on for the second half.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Mate when two fighters are close.......you need to look at things like time at the top and have they lost ????????

Hoppo is the best win on either record.......

I think Calzaghe was better than Froch because he was better than Froch. Clinging to the ten years is a bit much tho. He clearly fought absolute guff most of the time. Longevity means nothing if you are fighting cr*p

Tell that to Louis and Pedroza fans..

Eubank, Reid, Mitchell, Hoppo, Lacy, Woodhall, Kessler..........

Stacks up with Froch's opposition..

Kessler, Taylor, Abraham, Dirrell, Pascal and Bute are wins which more than match up Calzaghes record.

Froch beat Kessler more decisively. Calzaghe was not able to hurt Kessler as much as Froch. Calzaghe also didn’t travel to Denmark to face Kessler either. Froch is very underrated. He has tested himself more than Calzaghe did and fought better opponents. Its close between the two. Calzaghe was mabe slightly better boxer all round but I think Froch will end up deserving to rate higher. If they fought it would be 50/50 fight but I think Froch would fancy it more. He is more of a warrior than Calzaghe was.

winchester wrote:Froch beat Kessler more decisively. Calzaghe was not able to hurt Kessler as much as Froch. Calzaghe also didn’t travel to Denmark to face Kessler either. Froch is very underrated. He has tested himself more than Calzaghe did and fought better opponents. If they fought it would be 50/50 fight but I think Froch would fancy it more. He is more of a warrior than Calzaghe was

Hows it going anyway Carl?

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Kessler, Taylor, Abraham, Dirrell, Pascal and Bute are wins which more than match up Calzaghes record.

They match it.........so add two defeats and half the longevity..

Carl's got the better championship run though.


I think Froch might be remembered more fondly because of his attitude towards matchmaking. Much easier to remain unbeaten if you avoid the people who can beat you.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Kessler, Taylor, Abraham, Dirrell, Pascal and Bute are wins which more than match up Calzaghes record.

They match it.........so add two defeats and half the longevity..

Calzaghe's famed longevity is against some truly awful fighters. Easily pleased Truss if you use this as a factor to rate him so highly.

Froch has faced better fighters but JC has had the better career.

Guess it depends on how you define better. If Calzaghe had sought the biggest challenges throughout his career then I doubt very much he would be undefeated. He still has his zero because he ducked the biggest challenges rather than being the best around.

Froch has been lucky enough to catch more fighters on the slide. While Calzaghe won the title from a fading Eubank, Hopkins was the king at Light Heavyweight at the time and in the top P4P list. Joe fought more prime fighters such as Reid, Sheika, Mitchell, Brewer, Lacy, Biki, Kessler. With Froch fighters like Reid, Taylor, Abraham, Johnson were all past their best. No disrespect to Carl but Kessler didn't look like anything of the Viking Warrior of old. I hope he retires infact. Froch's two biggest wins are Pascal and Bute. Calzaghe's are Hopkins in the States and a prime Kessler. With the fact that Joe reigned longer, won the Ring title at two different weights plus fought more prime opposition and never lost it's Calzaghe all the way.

I thought Joe won more convincingly against a better version Kessler. Also Carl had the benefit of having faced MK before where as JC got the job done first time out. Also giving CF credit for facing MK in Denmark is only worth mentioning if he actually won the fight.

Also Joe gets a lot of stick for his unconvincing win over B-Hop but it was no less convincing than Froch' win over Dirrell. Give Carl huge respect for his CV in recent times but he would have to avenge loss to Ward to have a chance of overtaking JC.

JC wins a comfortable decision out of the two but also think he would have too much in arsenal for Ward, although I think Ward could become good enough to split a series of fights.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Calzaghe wasn't at the top, he has a belt holder and nothing more. For me fighting top fighters over and over is more important than fighting rubbish over a 10 year period. Guess you are easily pleased.

Ward comfortably beats joe for me. Hoppo made him look pretty ordinary in the first half of the fight and Ward would carry it on for the second half.

Not objecting to your side of the argument per se but I think the part about Hoppo is somewhat harsh. After all who was the last fighter who fought Hopkins and wasn't made to look ordinary at intervals throughout? And results wise Joe beat him in the midst of a point where Hopkins was breezing past competent versions of Tarver, Pavlik and Pascal.

For the record I think Joe wins quite cleanly if he and Froch had fought prior to retirement but they're two fighters who generally peaked at different times and had different approaches inside and outside the ring. Froch has deservedly earned credibility for consistently wanting to fight the best available and even if he hasn't always got the tools to win he usually gives it absolutely everything. JC always did have the tools but was much more regulating in his choice of opposition. I still find it very hard to see Froch coping with Calzaghe's sheer pace and handspeed. Add to that that one of Joe's main strengths late in his career was his adaptability to whoever he was fighting while Froch will keep going through sheer guts but, as has been demonstrated before, this isn't always enough.

Regarding each fighter's respective showing against Kessler, I recall Calzaghe-Kessler as being a massive occasion between the unbeaten top two of the division for the undisputed title. I'd say Kessler was fresher and more confident and dangerous back then than he was for either of the Froch fights but that's only my opinion. Even if Joe had fought him in Denmark though I still think he'd have won, he was technically a more skilled and superior fighter to Kessler while I class Kessler and Froch as being a similar mould, especially reflected in their two fights thus far.

Calzaghe still beats Froch, for me, but Ward beats them both.

Yep..........Ward seems complete..........

Froch needs to fight him soon If at all.........

Time is on Ward's side.

The Calzaghe that beat Kessler gives Ward serious problems. JC's engine is off the scale. Ward would be fighting in every minute of every round.

No fighter was able to find a way to beat Calzaghe.

As no fighter has found a way to beat Ward..........

who's beaten Froch and Dawson....

Perhaps bar Hoppo better fighters than Joe beat.

Ward is exceptionally hard to beat I agree but Calzaghe would have made him fight at a high pace which he might find uncomfortable. Would be a great clash of styles. I couldn't pick a winner.

I could..

Problem is, as good as Calzaghe was, he never fought someone on Ward's level and the nearest he fought in terms of fight styles at least was old man Hoppo and he struggled to nick a decision. Chuck in Ward's youth, better engine, more speed and power but largely with Hoppo's other fundamentals and 8 times out of 10 I see Andre taking it.

Calzaghe was no spring chicken when he fought Hopkins either. I think you will go a long way to find a SMW with a better engine than JC. Watch the Calzaghe v Kessler fight again just to compare it to today's current crop, by comparison JC looks very impressive to my eye. As a fighter the guy had everything, he walked all over Kessler in the end.

If his engine was so good and such a determining factor why did he struggle so much with Hoppo? It's the catch 22 of your argument.

Hopkins spoiled the whole night, nobody is better at ruining a fight. He did a lot of hugging, very negative tactics. Has Hopkins ever been in a good fight? most cynical fighter in boxing. Ward wouldn't be far behind.

Punch output and effectiveness can be reduced significantly by staying out of range, countering and infighting which are two things Ward excels at. Calzaghe threw upwards of 1000 punches against Kessler but against Hopkins it was reduced to about 700 which was a drop of about a third. And that was even including Calzaghe upping the tempo as Hopkins tired.

I think if the pair met Wards general ring use and proficiency at either being out of range or fighting up close and his ability to draw and counter would have a severe impact on Calzaghes punchout put. I also think Calzaghes accuracy would be reduced a lot also. It’s a tough fight for both guys, but if you were to look at a fighter that had all the necessities to beat someone like Calzaghe then Ward would be a pretty good fit for that because he has almost everything needed to offset to Calzaghes great strength in his numbers punching.

I consider Ward to be a better fighter than the Hopkins Calzaghe fight and the Hopkins/Calzaghe fight tends to lead me to think Ward would beat Calzaghe. Not easily, but by a clear decision. I think Calzaghe has more weaknesses than Ward. When you throw as many punches as Calzaghe does, its inneviteable you leave yourself more open. Ward is great at exploited that and shutting down Clazaghes punch volume. A tough fight for Ward but Id favour to win a clear decision.

In answer to the OP I thought Joe's victory more compelling. To pick up on other comments, Ward is a good fighter, and is clearly the man at SMW at the moment. It is true that he has beaten allcomers but has he really beaten anyone who in the big picture is really that good. He has certainly not fought anyone as good as Joe was. Froch is a one pace one trick pony (who I have come to like as it happens. I always like sportsmen who make the most of what they have) who has never shown any ability to change his gameplan according to the opposition or change the momentum of a fight by changing things mid contest. This is why Ward beats Carl every time. Joe however had this intelligence and ability and I feel that he would work Ward out too. Guess we will never know. Shame though a proper fight

Strongback wrote:Hopkins spoiled the whole night, nobody is better at ruining a fight. He did a lot of hugging, very negative tactics. Has Hopkins ever been in a good fight? most cynical fighter in boxing. Ward wouldn't be far behind.

Agree entirely. So you've got what made Hoppo good/difficult to beat for JC and you add to that speed, power and a better/younger engine - hard to see how JC can turn something around.

Ward is susceptible to the uppercut and doesnt have a Hoppo like chin though. Hopkins is also better at making the most of few seconds of rests here and there whereas ward coasts for rounds to get his breath back. Joe might not have excellent power but he can land on the button with accuracy in the midst of his flurries. He's also faster and able to blast accurate punches out of nowhere to surprise Ward. Particularly those uppercuts and straights. I think that Joe chases him endlessly and hits him often enough and hard enough to force a late stoppage. Ward will be shellshocked and will begin to tire as JC harries him and uses his footwork to get into position to unleash. You can see how often ward makes people lunge, none of that from Joe. Wards engine might be better than hopkins but it doesnt recover as quick as his and I see all those coasted rounds belonging to Joe.

ShahenshahG wrote:Ward is susceptible to the uppercut and doesnt have a Hoppo like chin though. Hopkins is also better at making the most of few seconds of rests here and there whereas ward coasts for rounds to get his breath back. Joe might not have excellent power but he can land on the button with accuracy in the midst of his flurries. He's also faster and able to blast accurate punches out of nowhere to surprise Ward. Particularly those uppercuts and straights. I think that Joe chases him endlessly and hits him often enough and hard enough to force a late stoppage. Ward will be shellshocked and will begin to tire as JC harries him and uses his footwork to get into position to unleash. You can see how often ward makes people lunge, none of that from Joe. Wards engine might be better than hopkins but it doesnt recover as quick as his and I see all those coasted rounds belonging to Joe.