Does Gatland have a Welsh bias?

First topic message reminder :

We knew before hand that Wales would make up the bulk of the Lions squad after winning the 6 nations, and any tight calls Gatland would prob favour the player he is familar with.

But are there genuine fears that Gatland will be bias?

From
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22682562

"On the other hand, a lot of the Welsh players have had two weeks together as well and we've trained them pretty hard,"

Is he forgetting that he has Scottish (Hogg, Gray, Maitland) Irish (Murray, Paul O'Connell) and English players (Farrell, Vunipola, Stevens) already there, maybe not the English ones as long, but has had Scottish and Irish players for same time a he's had the Welsh ones?


To be fair I thought I'd just point it out, I think its just habit saying Welsh all the time and I hope he puts out the best team with no bias.

Is anyone slighty concerned though?

He's got a calf strain FFS, he'll be back next week.

Griff wrote:Maj, the report says that Jenkins will miss the warm up game vs the Baa Baas, but should be available next week. Therefore, your 'not fit for at least 3 games' is either a guess into the future or an exaggeration.

Griff
Not one to support Maj, but it came from Mr G himself

"He's had ongoing problems with his calf for a long, long time but the physios are confident he'll be available for the second or the third game so it shouldn't hamper him too much."

if that's the case I don't think taking someone who might not be fit until possibly the 3rd of 10 games is poor form in my mind

Griff wrote:He's got a calf strain FFS, he'll be back next week.

WHAT!!!?

Its a LONGSTANDING CALF PROBLEM............ not a strain!!

majesticimperialman wrote:He could well be bias, when you consider that Gethin Jenkins has suffered a Calf Injury again, and yet as kept him in the squad ( in case he regains full fitness.) What if he does not get fully fit? will he send a "NONE WELSH" Replacement?

I guess we will wait and see right.

Melon is a special case for Gatland...pre RWC 2011 the grump was injured and had not played but still went on tour and was awesome, this is a double slam winner, experienced Lion and an awesome footballing prop remember...his calf is a chronic injury that often pings so they can predict his recovery to some extent. I think that if he is not fit within a week of the baa baa game he should go home but Gats will give him every chance to recover.

FHF, yes it's long standing for the past few years. Hence they know about it and know how long he'll probably be out. He missed the Scotland game in the 6N with it too. One week out. Why else would Gatland say he'll be back next week? He wouldn't just make it up!

FHF, you do realise that the 2nd game is next weds (v western force) and the 3rd is next sat v Queensland reds? So that's a week out of matches.

Griff wrote:FHF, yes it's long standing for the past few years. Hence they know about it and know how long he'll probably be out. He missed the Scotland game in the 6N with it too. One week out. Why else would Gatland say he'll be back next week? He wouldn't just make it up!

That's fair enough Griff, and yes I agree an on-form and fit Melon is a special player indeed, and agree with 100%beefy........ assess him for the next week or so and then make a call

majesticimperialman wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:He could well be bias, when you consider that Gethin Jenkins has suffered a Calf Injury again, and yet as kept him in the squad ( in case he regains full fitness.) What if he does not get fully fit? will he send a "NONE WELSH" Replacement?

I guess we will wait and see right.

So if you were Warren Gatland, you would just have cut him from the squad straight away? I didn't think his injury was too bad?

RiscaRev.

My point is that Gethin Jenkins might not be (fully fit) for atleast 3 games. It is a 10 match series, if he does not regain his full fitness. Can the Lions afford too carry a player/s that might not play in any games?

I don't know where you get the three games from? Besides which, I've never heard of a player being cut from a Lions squad like that. Players quite rightly get every chance to recover. With Healy, Vunipola and Stevens there, where's the shortage? So, no there's no biased management keeping him out there, it's good management giving him a chance to recover.

Griff wrote:FHF, you do realise that the 2nd game is next weds (v western force) and the 3rd is next sat v Queensland reds? So that's a week out of matches.

Griff

Thank you for that. That is what i have been saying. the games come straight after one another....They are not 2/3 weeks apart.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Griff wrote:FHF, you do realise that the 2nd game is next weds (v western force) and the 3rd is next sat v Queensland reds? So that's a week out of matches.

Griff

Thank you for that. That is what i have been saying. the games come straight after one another....They are not 2/3 weeks apart.

That's nothing like what you've been saying?

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

Griff wrote:FHF, you do realise that the 2nd game is next weds (v western force) and the 3rd is next sat v Queensland reds? So that's a week out of matches.

Griff

Thank you for that. That is what i have been saying. the games come straight after one another....They are not 2/3 weeks apart.

That's nothing like what you've been saying?

RiscaRev
What I have been saying can the Lions/Gatland, he is in charge of the Lions. Can they afford to keep Gethin Jenkins in the squad if he is not going too be fully fit. For atleast 2/3 games.

You're very hard work. Thanks for telling me that Warren Gatland is in charge. You learn something new every day.

It's not definite that Jenkins won't be fit. The likelihood is he's only missing this weekend. Clearly Jenkins is a good player and you don't just cut any player from a squad on the off chance they might not be fit.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

Griff wrote:FHF, you do realise that the 2nd game is next weds (v western force) and the 3rd is next sat v Queensland reds? So that's a week out of matches.

Griff

Thank you for that. That is what i have been saying. the games come straight after one another....They are not 2/3 weeks apart.

That's nothing like what you've been saying?

RiscaRev
What I have been saying can the Lions/Gatland, he is in charge of the Lions. Can they afford to keep Gethin Jenkins in the squad if he is not going too be fully fit. For atleast 2/3 games.

Gatland has said that he should be back for the 2nd or 3rd game, which is either next Wednesday or next Saturday. Therefore, as the games are so close together, and as Gatland is talking in games, then missing a week is not a huge deal in this instance. If he was out for a few weeks rather than a potentially half a week (if he makes the 2nd game) then yes he would probably be sent home as others have been sent home in the past.

Jenkins' situation isn't so strange.

Leigh Halfpenny missed the first two games of the 2009 Lions series. He was even allowed to stay in Wales to get fit, joining up the rest of the squad later. (sadly, of course, he broke down again after featuring in only one match).

Plenty of players have had smalls knocks and missed games in lions tours. That's part and parcel of rugby. The longer injuries get sent home for a replacement, the lesser injuries get treated and they stay within the squad.

Look Melon is a known quantity
He can be spectacular, is a leader, is an experienced Lion etc. Even his injury is somewhat predictable.

A t our of this length has different rules about injury management. It is not a clear cut case of he is done send him home.
If his injury was unknown then a decision could be made to bin him but it is clearly a recurrent injury that he and the medics will know well.
Due to Gatlands familiarity (no doubt this will be read as bias) with the welsh lads and belief in some, such as Gethin and Dan, Gethin will not need to be tried out in the same way Gats will want to look at others. In my view he will be competing with Healey for a test spot and though i think Healey deserves it, if required Gethin would stand in and do an excellent job.

RubyGuby wrote:Wales win a Grand Slam in 2005 and the Lions take 20 english players

Wales win the Slam in 2012 and the Championship after a 30-3 mauling of England in 2013 and Gatland picks 15 welsh players.

That's some bias lads - The only bias on here is from non-welsh fans against Gatland. My advice is get over it and to stop looking for things that are not there

Some desperate claptrap about recent club form rather than International form has been spouted.
Gatland and co have fallen into the trap of picking useless out of form Welsh players.Seems odd for Gats to put his reputation on the line and ignore regional/provincial /club form.Perhaps he remembers the Irish sides and the recent Scottish sides doing quite well but still falling short at international level.
How Gats got this gig is beyond me!
Can we all just try not repeating the same old guff that has been churned out since the squad was named and simply get behind the squad.

Bias here is being used as a bad word. My understanding of 'bias' is that it's not altogether a bad thing, but much more accurately, a natural thing.

Blatant crude unethical bias can obviously be questioned; but bias that is more subtle, and revolves around the notion that a coach who has coached certain players actually believes they have qualities he can trust, happens naturally.

The coach backs himself as a coach and therefore backs the reasons he's chosen players to play a game he wants to play.

There is too much defensive posturing over the word 'bias' from some. A Lions coach doesn't exist in a vacuum, ready to be unleashed onto the world with a perfectly objective view of the resources at his disposal and coming to a natural four way equal split of personnel by each Nation.

Bias ain't a bad word.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Scrumdown

You do realise the 6Ns was in Feb/Mar 2013 that's quite a while ago in fact almost three months you cannae consider that form.

Since then (THATS Mar/Apr/May) the talented players i.e. The HC semi finalists, and finalists, The Aviva Premiership play-off teams, and the Rabbo Direct play-off teams have all been playing high intensity games....... whilst most the "talented Welsh" with the exception of the Scarlets players (and North has been so far off-form its unbelievable) have been twiddling their thumbs either playing dead rubber matches or in the case of some not playing at all.

IMHO of the Welsh players only Lee Byrne and maybe Liam Williams/Jon Davies have played well in high intensity matches since the 6Ns ended, two of them are not Lions even.

What's worrying even more is Gatland has selected "high risk" options, firstly Hartley with his temperament issues although he has been on cracking form since March and now we understand that Jenkins has suffered a recurrence of his long-standing calf problem, which has him out of the tour warm-up in Hong Kong on Saturday. So basically he has missed all the training camps and what is Gatlands Ruling: Don't attend at least one training camp then you wont be considered.

"He's had on-going problems with his calf for a long, long time but the physios are confident he'll be available for the second or the third game so it shouldn't hamper him too much

Yes Mr Gatland if you have a bias for FORM and TALENT have a butchers at players who have been fit and performing well since the 6Ns, and hopefully not a bias for a nationality

The Lions squad selection was made on the 30th April whilst the six nations championship was won by Wales in their best performance of the year on the 17th March. You've definitely got your dates wrong somewhere.


The Lions isn't a training camp where we can drop in a few scottish players who have showed promise in the rabo playoffs.

The history of the Lions demands that we select the players who have proven themselves on the highest stage of all - international rugby.

Wales have beaten scotland in their last 6 internationals;
England in their last 3;
Ireland in 3 of their last 4.

It is time you put your national bias to one side now and get behind the Lions. Otherwise get behind the Wallabies.

What's the score for Wales against Australia?

Scrumdown............. ok lets go through the stuff again

FIRSTLY I REPLIED TO A WELSH POSTER WHO STATED THAT GATLAND PICKED ON TALENT RE: THE 6NS PERIOD......... NOTHING TO DO WITH BIAS.
SECONDLY YOU ARE NOT TALKING INTERNATIONAL MATCHES YOU ARE CHERRY PICKING 6NS RESULTS (PATHETIC)....... IF YOU ARE TALKING INTERNATIONAL MATCHES THEN IT WOULD BE MUCH BETTER TO COMPARE PERFORMANCES AGAINST SH SIDES IN PARTICULAR AGAINST AUSTRALIA

Now
Gatland stated that selection would be on past performances against SH sides, 2013 6Ns and club games (normally meant to be high intensity games) why do you think he approached Wilkinson so late in the day. He never said he based selection purely JUST ON THE 6Ns TOURNAMENT which was on 2nd Feb and ended 16 Mar....... the Lions was selection on 30th Apr. Now I might only be an Economist but even I can see that's about 6.5 weeks by that time there were a fair few players who didn't win the 6Ns but since performed at a very high standard of which Saracens Brown and Glasgows Grant were among quite a few who deffo were performing better than some (post 6Ns) who are going on the plane. They weren't selected and now we are all behind the Lions but it still doesn't stop silly comments from certain posters (read this topic mate).

Now my ripostes are to an idiotic message on this topic. By the way I have been on 3 Lions tours (and by the way not many Scots were selected on any of the tours) and probably would be going on this one if my work hadn't got in the way. Not sure if you have ever saved some dough over a period of time to spend travelling around watching the Lions but I have for three of them.... so before you cast your stones on the forum read the sequence of events that led to the messages.

Gatland is receiving inside information from the most talented Australian in history

Spoiler:

wanderingdragon wrote:If there is one thing you can be sure of with Gatland it is that he wants to win. If he thinks that means playing no Welshmen then that is what he will do. If he thinks it means playing 15 then the same applies.

Well said.

flyhalffactory wrote:

YOU ARE NOT TALKING INTERNATIONAL MATCHES YOU ARE CHERRY PICKING 6NS RESULTS (PATHETIC)

I think he is including all previous matches against the home nations including World Cup matches and World Cup warm-up matches as well, not exactly cherry picking. Although I guess specifying Wales winning 3 of the last 4 against Ireland (opposed to simply losing the last one) is massaging the stats slightly, I'm not sure it justifies your block capital tirade and accusation of being pathetic. Nothing against you flyhalf, just think that you may have over-reacted a little on this one.

flyhalffactory wrote:

IF YOU ARE TALKING INTERNATIONAL MATCHES THEN IT WOULD BE MUCH BETTER TO COMPARE PERFORMANCES AGAINST SH SIDES IN PARTICULAR AGAINST AUSTRALIA

I would have thought the best indicator of comparative ability would be how players perform against one another (and seeing as Gatland can't pick Australians) that would make head to head matches between the home nations very important.

Performance against Australia should be considered, but I would argue that it is far from the most important thing. Otherwise the Lions squad would be full of Scottish players.

Re: Does Gatland have a Welsh bias?

Post by Scrumdown Yesterday at 1:02 pm
.
The only bias Gatland has is for talented rugby players.

It just so happens that the best players in Britain and Ireland are currently welsh and they have proven this time and time again in the six nations.

If anything there has been a biased in favour of English and Scottish players. Matt Stevens, Richard Gray, Owen Farrel, and Geoff Parling would have struggled to get on the trip if they were welsh.

If Dan Biggar was Scottish, you can bet your bottom dollar he would be a Lion.

Irfon

That was the offending post that started this childish ping pong (and I include myself being guilty of letting myself get dragged into it). Scrumdown as usual banged on about this season (and other seasons 6Ns). Now two things about the 6Ns

1. It was played 6-11 weeks before 30th April 2013 - Lions Selection Day.
2. Its a tournament that's played between NH teams during a cold and normally wet part of the European season.

We (The Lions) are playing in a SH country, against SH opposition, in a warm, dry and normally hard pitched environment.........

Finally there are players who have been the form players during the six weeks that was post 6Ns and up to Selection Day. Even Gatland has said that the high intensity of the semis and finals of the HC, Aviva and Rabbo will be considered as well as the 6Ns.

I would say the best indicator is how we perform against SH sides particularly when playing against them in their own backyard. I would say e.g. France are up for playing NZ, Australia, Argentina, SA, or England rather than Scotland, Ireland or Wales........ beating the All Blacks this summer will mean much more to them than winning the 6Ns or having a Grand Slam. We (Scotland have a better record against SH team than we have in the 6Ns, in fact I might be wrong but I am sure Wales have the worst record of any home nations against SH opponents. To state "International" matches are the selection criteria and then select only NH games is most definitely cherry picking and typical of the poster, if he looked at ALL the home nations "international" matches say in the last 18-24 months (anything before that is quite insignificant as form then doesn't come into it) including 6Ns, AIs, and Summer Tours then I might start taking him seriously.

I am however, fully on-board with the Lions and think that all the Welsh players have justified their inclusion based on the 6Ns (but very few based on post 6Ns form).

What relevance has post 6N's form got?Diddly.We would have a very limited squad on this basis.
Straw clutching is a sad sight to see.
Gatland has made his picks.He likes winning stuff.Good enough for me.
Class,form etc.
GET BEHIND THE LIONS OR WATCH THE SCOTS IN SA OR DO BOTH BUT PLEASE STOP YOUR SNIPING,IT IS REALLY STARTING TO GRATE!

So Taff you are basically saying that the 6 weeks in Feb/Mar are the criteria to base selection on.............

Yes I see

You need to get across the Severn Bridge once in a while and view some games, maybe just maybe you'll have a broader view and then............ oh never mind

Fly

don't respond to the view that has actively been made based on the polar oppisite of your opinion purposely mate.

I see both sides of the argument, as Gatland did, but you also have to consider numerous issues surrounding post 6N performances.

1/ Welsh regions are in constant compat with their governing body, are doing things to spite the WRU and aren't properly funded, therefore Welsh internationals play with a lesser quality player and generally play in weakened losing teams.

2/ The same Welsh internationals post demolition of England didn't want to take the risk of playing themselves out of contention, and there were probably 12 + who knew had inclusion in the bag unless they did something stupid, the likes of Warbs, Cuthbert and Roberts all called off sickj and didn't play regional rugby, and the ones who id play did everything they could not to get injured.

3/ There was very little to gain from performing post 6N and a lot to lose for certain players, players such as Lydiate, POC, Croft etc probably thought they needed to perform to stand a chance, and all had MOTM performances post 6N didn't they?!

So although I see the argument you make which is Wales record post 6N, you really have to take into consideration they lost their head coach, were headed by an amateur fast tracked former scrum half, and despite being as weakened as Aus outplayed them twice and should really have taken 1 of those games if not the series, then despite being decimated by injuries in the AI's shouldve beaten them again.

They did however lose, and lost to Argy and Samoa too, so there are rightfull question marks, but in all I don't dislike the squad, and I think there are a number of players who could quite easily have been left at home for non welsh options, however only Lydiate is the Welsh player who is in that list IMO

Bluesman

Totally agree with you......... I would have taken Biggar as well instead of Farrell (and Biggar has played well since the 6Ns), and I would have taken Lydiate if he had lost both legs and arms, he is that good in my mind, I know most non-Welsh posters disagree with me. Finally how can Mr G not select Ryan Jones after his performance as capt for Wales in the 6Ns.

As far as the 3 test matches last summer against Oz, yes on another day you could have won all three but lets not forget that was one of the poorest Australian squads. I think this summer there will be a quantum leap in performance.

I however take the stance of AWJ when he was pestered on the Lions captaincy and selection weeks before it was made............... totally ignored the question but did say "there were players who were playing awesome post 6Ns at the right end of the tables"and his only contribution to the interviews was to talk about the Ospreys and how if he was performing week-in-week-out for the 6 weeks coming up to Selection Day then how would he be chosen. Lot of respect for AWJ since then, and also major respect for Biggar who has kept quiet and his head down at a time when he must have been so disappointed seeing most of his team mates being selected when he was one of the stand-out players in the welsh 6Ns squad.

But its all done and dusted now, united front (and back) and cant wait for Saturday

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

nathan wrote:as mentioned by fa, Gatland needs to start building a unity between all the players and talk about them as lions and not Irish, English, welsh or Scottish.

As captain, Warburton needs to start doing the same. Rather than harping on about Welsh 'leaders'.

No English leaders thou there captain can't even get a ticket let alone lead.

Everybody has a bias, Gatland has a bias within the Welsh set up, just look at Peel, Popham, Delve and more obvious R Jones and now J Hook.

R Jones played 6 against Ireland in 2012 and took over as captain as uncle Sam went off injured at half time with Wales behind, Wales won Jones was MOTM. Next game Lydiate was declared fit and replaced Jones who was moved into the second row (as Captain) against Scotland and won. Jiffy for some reason gave Lydiate MOTM (for turning up) when Jones and Shingler and three Scots played better but Jones ended up on the bench for the next game. The same has happened this Lions tour, Lydiate in effect replaced R Jones as he conveniently for Gatland had a shoulder injury which had recovered before the tour (not to mension being captain for 3 winning games in the 6N after 8 loses).

That is bias or team selection?

Surely if there was bias then Paul James would have got the call ahead of Corbs and now Grant wouldn't he?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely if there was bias then Paul James would have got the call ahead of Corbs and now Grant wouldn't he?

Or Gill!

glamorganalun wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely if there was bias then Paul James would have got the call ahead of Corbs and now Grant wouldn't he?

Or Gill!

So you don't think their is any bias at all. Cian Healey gets injured ans is being sent home i do believe.

"YET" Gethin Jenkins, who was injured before he came on tour. And is still injured. As not played a game yet. Is being kept in the squad.

Does that not sound like Bias too you?

Sounds like different injuries to me - 1 involves damaged ligaments which mean a player has 0% chance to play any more part; the other a calf strain that could be better within a week, as happened in the 6N.

A further thing - Gatland is not a doctor so takes his advice from the medical team (Scotsman Dr James Robson). If they say that Gethin will not feature at all then Gatland will send him home I'm sure. Or do you think Gatland makes the medical calls too?

majesticimperialman wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely if there was bias then Paul James would have got the call ahead of Corbs and now Grant wouldn't he?

Or Gill!

So you don't think their is any bias at all. Cian Healey gets injured ans is being sent home i do believe.

"YET" Gethin Jenkins, who was injured before he came on tour. And is still injured. As not played a game yet. Is being kept in the squad.

Does that not sound like Bias too you?

Give it up. You're embarrassing yourself. Jenkins was able to train before the tour, so wasn't injured. Also the key difference is Healy has been ruled out of the tour, Jenkins hasn't. It's really poor form that you are wanting Jenkins sent home so badly.

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely if there was bias then Paul James would have got the call ahead of Corbs and now Grant wouldn't he?

Or Gill!

So you don't think their is any bias at all. Cian Healey gets injured ans is being sent home i do believe.

"YET" Gethin Jenkins, who was injured before he came on tour. And is still injured. As not played a game yet. Is being kept in the squad.

Does that not sound like Bias too you?

Give it up. You're embarrassing yourself. Jenkins was able to train before the tour, so wasn't injured. Also the key difference is Healy has been ruled out of the tour, Jenkins hasn't. It's really poor form that you are wanting Jenkins sent home so badly.

I want a fully fit squad of players for the Lions tour. And it is clear that Jenkins is not fully fit.

Why are you so eager too keep him on tour.? Is he your brother in law or some thing.?

No, but why should a player be robbed of the chance of pulling on a Lions shirt if they aren't definitely ruled out?

majesticimperialman wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely if there was bias then Paul James would have got the call ahead of Corbs and now Grant wouldn't he?

Or Gill!

So you don't think their is any bias at all. Cian Healey gets injured ans is being sent home i do believe.

"YET" Gethin Jenkins, who was injured before he came on tour. And is still injured. As not played a game yet. Is being kept in the squad.

Does that not sound like Bias too you?

Give it up. You're embarrassing yourself. Jenkins was able to train before the tour, so wasn't injured. Also the key difference is Healy has been ruled out of the tour, Jenkins hasn't. It's really poor form that you are wanting Jenkins sent home so badly.

I want a fully fit squad of players for the Lions tour. And it is clear that Jenkins is not fully fit.

Why are you so eager too keep him on tour.? Is he your brother in law or some thing.?

Nothing like jumping the gun a bit hey madge, now he's been actually ruled out he's on his way home funny that really

This thread once again shows the inability of a group of welsh fans to understand that disagreeeing with Gatlands decisions and suspecting his selection may be biased does not mean one hates the Welsh or Gatland

To answer the original question many of his marginal selections appear biased and whilst this may be natural in that he favours players he knows well but The inclusion of unfit / out of form / unproven welsh players over the alternatives would appear that he has been too biased in this way.

The treatment of marginal players has clearly been different if you are welsh or if you come from another nation.

TJ,

I agree that where calls were marginal he may have well gone for who he knows, what coach wouldn't but in that case then why wasn't James called up with two props now who ruled out?

Also out of those he selected, marginal or otherwise who is unproven?

Lydiate - fitness / form unproven and plenty of other candidates ingood form.

We will see with the test selections and the "Lydiate gamble" may prove to be a master-stroke or a brainfart

As I said on the first page - rather than a welsh bias, Gatland and his coaches have a natural inclination towards players they have worked with.

This may have applied to Lydiate who had missed a lot of rugby with injury, but also applies to POC and Croft who had performed so well for Gatland in 2009 and had also missed a lot of rugby.