Euro Tiers Announced

The ERC has officially announced the respective tiers for teams ahead of next Wednesday's Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup Pool draws.

Heineken Cup winners Toulon make their debut in Tier 1 alongside Clermont, Toulouse, Ulster, Munster and Challenge Cup winners Leinster.

Due to France having more teams in the elite competition, Racing will be drawn last into a pool with another outfit from the Top 14 competition.

Biarritz, Stade Francais, London Wasps, Bath and Brive occupy the top Tier of the Challenge Cup.

2013/14 Heineken Cup clubs and tiers

Tier 1 - Leinster, Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont Auvergne, Ulster, Munster

Tier 2 - Northampton Saints, Harlequins, Cardiff Blues, Saracens, Leicester Tigers, Perpignan

Tier 3 - Edinburgh, Ospreys, Scarlets, Glasgow Warriors, Montpellier, Connacht

Tier 4 - Gloucester, Castres Olympique, Racing Metro 92, Exeter Chiefs, Benetton Treviso, Zebre

The draw for the 2013/14 Heineken Cup pools will take place at the Aviva Stadium on Wednesday, 5 June following the Amlin Challenge Cup draw at 2.30pm

2013/14 Amlin Challenge Cup clubs and tiers

Tier 1 - Biarritz Olympique, Stade Francais, London Wasps, Bath, Brive

Tier 2 - London Irish, Sale Sharks, Dragons, England (TBC), Rugby Viadana

Tier 3 - Bayonne, I Cavalieri Prato, Worcester Warriors, Bordeaux-Bègles, Cammi Rugby Calvisano

Tier 4 - Grenoble, Mogliano Rugby, Oyonnax, Bucharest Wolves, Spanish representative

The draw for the 2013/14 Amlin Challenge Cup pools will take place at the Aviva Stadium on Wednesday, 5 June at 2.30pm


The top tier teams will be hoping for the Blues,Edinburgh & Zebre.
Every team will be hoping to avoid Racing Metro in Tier 4

As always there are some potential combos which would be really good to watch.

Any of the top seeds plus Leicester, Ospreys and Racing Metro would be a really tough pool. Compare that to potentially having Cardiff, Connacht and Zebre...

Cardiff, Connacht and zebre isn't an option for any team as there must be a French and english team in each group.

I have a sneaking suspicion that castres and racing will have another French team in their group but I'm not 100% on that. From an ulster perspective I would just want to avoid Glasgow in tier 3.

Castres, Edinburgh, saints, ulster would be good

People on here hoping to get the Blues might be a little misguided, trust me, I expect the Blues to be a lot better next season, especially with the signing of Gethin Jenkins and Matthew Rees to their front row. Add to this they will have a new artificial turf to play on next year and some new investors ploughing in half a million quid, I think the Blues are only a decent coach away from being very competitive next year.

Can't really argue with those tiers.

Would perhaps say some sides deserve to be tier 4 not 3 but it's minor.

At least tier 2 and 1 look about right.

Dream pool for me is

Ulster Blues,Edinburgh & Zebre

TBH in tier 3 I'd rather face Edinburgh than Connacht if I support another team

With Connacht not being able to be drawn with another irish team it means they will have one of Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont Auvergne, in their pool

Kingshu that's impossible. You need a french and English side.

Both Edinburgh and Connacht shouldn't really be in the HC but as they are there I would say tier 4 would be more appropriate.

Even you must agree that at least Castres and Racing Metro would be a tougher proposition.

I just hope we get a nice away trip - and if we get edinburgh again i'm going to go mental! I'd like a trip to Toulouse again, pop back to De Danu and say hello to big Trevor Brennan

Bathman_in_London wrote:As always there are some potential combos which would be really good to watch.

Any of the top seeds plus Leicester, Ospreys and Racing Metro would be a really tough pool. Compare that to potentially having Cardiff, Connacht and Zebre...

Never mind the impossibility of the cardiff Connacht and Zebre.

Leicester Ospreys and Racing is only possible for a French team.

2 reasons for this. You can have a biscuit if you get both.

The only way any Irish tier 1 side can get Racing (or an Italian side for that matter) is with an English tier 2 side AND Montpellier. Furthermore Cardiff would HAVE to draw a French team to make this happen. Otherwise the 3 French tier 1 sides would HAVE to get Treviso, Zebre and Racing.

I want the hardest pool possible for Quins. That's the only way to learn, the only way to improve and I don't think our soft Pool this season helped us get ready for our showdown with Munster

Kingshu wrote:Dream pool for me is

Ulster Blues,Edinburgh & Zebre

Dream is right..... You might also need a parallel universe.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I want the hardest pool possible for Quins. That's the only way to learn, the only way to improve and I don't think our soft Pool this season helped us get ready for our showdown with Munster

How about Leinster, Montpellier and Racing?

St John The Enforcer wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I want the hardest pool possible for Quins. That's the only way to learn, the only way to improve and I don't think our soft Pool this season helped us get ready for our showdown with Munster

How about Leinster, Montpellier and Racing?

Bring it.

Cardiff know that they will get either Gloucester or Exeter, with Perpignan getting the other Tier 4 team.

The 4 Tier 2 English sides will be hoping they get one of the two Italian clubs, and not one of the two French ones.

I would like Leinster, Edinburgh and Castres but fully expect to get Toulouse, Ospreys & Treviso again. Not saying either is tougher, just want some variety. Cannot remember the last time we had a Scottish team.

LondonTiger wrote:Cardiff know that they will get either Gloucester or Exeter, with Perpignan getting the other Tier 4 team.

The 4 Tier 2 English sides will be hoping they get one of the two Italian clubs, and not one of the two French ones.

I would like Leinster, Edinburgh and Castres but fully expect to get Toulouse, Ospreys & Treviso again. Not saying either is tougher, just want some variety. Cannot remember the last time we had a Scottish team.

07/08 you had Embra. Not sure if you had one after that

ChequeredJersey wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I want the hardest pool possible for Quins. That's the only way to learn, the only way to improve and I don't think our soft Pool this season helped us get ready for our showdown with Munster

How about Leinster, Montpellier and Racing?

Bring it.

Toulon, Ospreys & Racing?

I would like it if Saracens don't get paired with Racing Metro again.

My dream pool - Toulouse,Saracens,Glasgow,Treviso


Glasgow have been talked up as one of the best sides in Europe. I want to see if they can live up to that reputation

On another note - Gloucester and Exeter will be paired with either Perpignan or Cardiff - not bad at all!

Glasgow made the play offs(putting in a very good display away to Leinster) in the pro 12 and finished 3rd in the league, which means they should have earned about the same respect as Harlequins.

Kingshu wrote:Glasgow made the play offs(putting in a very good display away to Leinster) in the pro 12 and finished 3rd in the league, which means they should have earned about the same respect as Harlequins.

Well, we did win our League last season too and have Silverware for the past 3 season. Shame it was only the LV= Cup this season. Glasgow look like a good side but I'm not sure I agree with your statement

St John The Enforcer wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I want the hardest pool possible for Quins. That's the only way to learn, the only way to improve and I don't think our soft Pool this season helped us get ready for our showdown with Munster

How about Leinster, Montpellier and Racing?

Bring it.

Toulon, Ospreys & Racing?

might be too much for Harlequins scrum...

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Glasgow made the play offs(putting in a very good display away to Leinster) in the pro 12 and finished 3rd in the league, which means they should have earned about the same respect as Harlequins.

Well, we did win our League last season too and have Silverware for the past 3 season. Shame it was only the LV= Cup this season. Glasgow look like a good side but I'm not sure I agree with your statement

Fair enough, but you get what I mean.

I team that finishs 3rd in its league, should be one to be wary off and deserve respect for it.

you have tier 2 Cardiff Blues,
and in the same tier Edinburgh, Ospreys, Scarlets and Connacht finished below them, so you would naturally wish to be drawn with on of those as opposed to Glasgow

Kingshu wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Glasgow made the play offs(putting in a very good display away to Leinster) in the pro 12 and finished 3rd in the league, which means they should have earned about the same respect as Harlequins.

Well, we did win our League last season too and have Silverware for the past 3 season. Shame it was only the LV= Cup this season. Glasgow look like a good side but I'm not sure I agree with your statement

Fair enough, but you get what I mean.

I team that finishs 3rd in its league, should be one to be wary off and deserve respect for it.

you have tier 2 Cardiff Blues,
and in the same tier Edinburgh, Ospreys, Scarlets and Connacht finished below them, so you would naturally wish to be drawn with on of those as opposed to Glasgow

Unless you want a hard pool

whocares wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I want the hardest pool possible for Quins. That's the only way to learn, the only way to improve and I don't think our soft Pool this season helped us get ready for our showdown with Munster

How about Leinster, Montpellier and Racing?

Bring it.

Toulon, Ospreys & Racing?

might be too much for Harlequins scrum...

Especially with no JJ. Toulon will maim our pack frankly but still, you have to beat the best to be the best

It's a funny one. Quins are quite rightly wary because they had an easier pool and came unstuck against a battle hardened munster. Personally I would rather ulster get a pool that will mean they have the best chance of a home QF because I don't care wif we get Toulon, Clermont or anyone else at raven hill. I think we will win. The semi draw is out of everyone's hands.

Kingshu as chequeredjersey says I don't agree with your statement. Plus Quins are HC quarter finalists.

Glasgow have achieved very little in the HC. Until they do I will reserve judgement.

I certainly don't look at the tier 3 and see any side I would want to avoid.

Leinster and Clermont in tier 1 sure.

Racing Metro and Castres - in tier 4

I am pleased to avoid the English sides too.

Ospreys in tier 3, most people would wish to avoid,

I'd rather have Castres in my group than Ospreys. As an Ulster fan we have recent experience in playing both.

But then most of your time is just to try and put the Pro 12 teams down as much as you can. I'm glad that Ulster, Munster and Leinster have risen that they are beyond any condemnation attempts from you.

Kingshu wrote:Ospreys in tier 3, most people would wish to avoid,

I'd rather have Castres in my group than Ospreys. As an Ulster fan we have recent experience in playing both.

I would agree, though as they are different tiers you can get both. I am amazed that Os are Tier 3, however as they have finished 3rd in their pool the last two years - failing to beat the English side they were paired with (2 defeats to Sarries, defeat and a draw to Tigers) it does tally.

Kingshu actually I just try and balance the attempts of yourself and others to rate your Pro12 sides higher than I think they should be.

Ulster,Munster and Leinster have actually proved themselves to be 3 of the best sides in Europe in my opinion. I don't think the likes of Scarlets,Ospreys,Glasgow etc have. The tiers reflect this.

As Londontiger points out why would an English side want to avoid the O's when they haven't exactly fared well against our sides?

Sides like Glasgow,Ospreys,Scarlets have squads that can potentially do well in Europe but haven't yet shown it. Perhaps next season is their time?

I was wary of Edinburgh this season after their HC semi final appearance but by failing to follow up their stock has fallen again.


Castres are Top 14 finalists.

As a Leinster fan I would happily take Northampton ahead of Glasgow. I reckon we would beat them easier.

As a Sarracens fan I can see why you would feel the opposite having been beaten at home by them in a semi.

It has something to do with familiarity I think. Northampton are more familiar with Saracens and know better how to beat them.

Glasgow are more familiar with Leinster.....

All these things come down to opinion too.

"I was wary of Edinburgh this season after their HC semi final"

This was a season to late to be wary of them, you should have been wary of them before they put in a good run.

It appears you want to be wise AFTER the event, where as any team in Europe will try to be WISE before the event.

Thats why any team will rate Glasgow as one of the teams to watch, and not misjudge them, get beat and then say that Glasgow surprised us with how good they were.

There were 3 excellent teams in the Rabo this season. Far better than the rest.

Scarlets started well but fell away very badly.

Munster had a season from hell (in the League anyway, they were total muck) and Ospreys had a poor season too.

There was not that much between Ulster, Glasgow and Leinster.

None of them had good seasons in Europe (Even though Leinster demonstrated they were much better than the Amlin by blowing away the other teams in 2nd gear in all 3 of their games)

Tears for the final ever Tiers of Heineken Cup Europe.

SecretFly wrote:Tears for the final ever Tiers of Heineken Cup Europe.

You are not another of these naysayers are you?

Personally I'll believe the HC is dead when I see the death certificate.

em...no I'm just a joker.


It's lucky the Net gun (one that can shoot down a optic cable) hasn't been invented yet 'cause a lot of you guys are liable to be doing a lot of nervy shoot-first and ask questions later

You have to look at where teams are going though as much as possible.

Glasgow are certainly on an upward trajectory and with minimal losses/changes are in good shape.
Castres are losing tekori, their coaching team and Toulouse are believed to be sniffing round kockott. Who replaces these will be crucial
Scarlets have lost their best player (arguably) and still look light up front. I don't know about potential signings other than barclay which is a positive.
Connacht will have an element of the unknown with pat lam in charge but Craig Clarke is a seriously impressive signing. I suspect they will be harder to beat than ever before.

That's just my take on some of the teams mentioned above and it is obviously not as in depth as I would like but I don't think castres are world beaters and they travel so poorly as a general rule.

Kockott either stays in Castres or goes back to SA (at least that is Castres position). Agree Castres does not have the depth to do well in both competition.

How was the second half of Kockott's season?

My dream pool:

Leinster
Harlequins
Edinburgh
Racing Metro

This year Quins had Biarritz, Connacht and Zebre in their pool and to be honest while any one of those would have been alright, the three together made it massively forgettable. The season before with the epic loss to Connacht and the comeback against Toulouse was far better. You need to share a pool with the other big boys, if you're not playing against the best then even if you top the pool it's all a bit meh.

Based on last season, are Edinburgh "big boys" at the moment?

Kingshu we'll see. Perhaps Glasgow will break their shocking record in the HC.


St John

Saints have a really poor overall record vs Saracens so I don't quite know what you are on about. Saints won the last encounter agreed but it was unsurprising they were more motivated. To say after 1 win they have the measure of Saracens is stretching it a bit.

I disagree about Leinster and Ulster having bad runs in Europe. Ulster got to HC quarter final which is still good. Leinster got knocked out by Clermont but still went on to easily win the Amlin. Ok not the same as the season before but that's not surprising.

standulsterman who said Castres are world beaters?

Probably not but I just like the way they played rugby, although they've got a bit crap now haven't they?
And PDJ will be wanting a bit of a rest after scrummaging against Leinster and Racing!
Pretty worried about having to trust it all to him and Lambert/Collier (is it Lambert or Collier? I can never remember which side they play!).

Collier

beshocked wrote:Kingshu we'll see. Perhaps Glasgow will break their shocking record in the HC.
St John

Saints have a really poor overall record vs Saracens so I don't quite know what you are on about. Saints won the last encounter agreed but it was unsurprising they were more motivated. To say after 1 win they have the measure of Saracens is stretching it a bit.

I disagree about Leinster and Ulster having bad runs in Europe. Ulster got to HC quarter final which is still good. Leinster got knocked out by Clermont but still went on to easily win the Amlin. Ok not the same as the season before but that's

Ah. So you would fear Glasgow more than Northampton? Or are you missing the point?

Ulster and Leinster will be disappointed with their European seasons. It's all relative. Winning the Amlin or reaching a HC qf may be seen as good to some teams for sure but not to the 2 teams that contested the HC final last year. that I can guarantee you.

I fear neither Glasgow or Saints. Why would I?

I suppose that's true about Ulster and Leinster. Both sides were knocked out by tough teams though. No shame in that.

The tiers are deceptive as I always say about pools and tiers. Leinster are in Tier one and I still fret about who they're going to meet in the 'lower' tiers. It really doesn't matter what tier you're in, someone isn't going to want to see you.

And any side (even an improving Zebre of all animals!) can catch out a considered better side, especially if that better side comes to the game with any hint of yawning complacency.

At Least Clermont is off the radar until the end stages.

Leinster, Perpignan, Edinburgh, Gloucester might be the nicest route in my eyes. Over to St John to confirm or deny whether that can actually happen

beshocked wrote:I fear neither Glasgow or Saints. Why would I?

I suppose that's true about Ulster and Leinster. Both sides were knocked out by tough teams though. No shame in that.

Ah. Missing/ignoring the point. I see.

I don't fear Glasgow or any of the English tier 2 sides but if you asked me to choose which I wanted in Leinster's pool I would rather have any of them ahead of Glasgow.

In my book that is because Glasgow have more work done on how to beat us.

I was asking you if you felt the same about ... say, for example... Northampton, who I picked because you lost your most recent game against them.

This was the point that you missed/chose to ignore.

As regards a successful season, winning 17 of our 18 games in 2013, including all knockouts, was very satisfying, but over here you are always measured against the HC.

Great to finally win the league after losing every single final ever played in it. Overall I would have it as a very good season, but Europewise not so much.

Leinster had a 70% season at best, even with the two titles, if you add in measurements for performance through the season long term, confidence, and the expectations of what they might have expected at the beginning of the season.

I too would prefer just about any club in England to Glasgow!

when's the draw?

Wed nes day. 12:00 in Dzubelin I believe.

Ok fair enough John. I did miss your point.

I suppose it's a good example because like Leinster vs Glasgow, Saracens vs Saints is normally dominated by 1 side in the wins department even though quite a few games are close.

I am quite surprised - 4 wins in a row vs Glasgow and you would want to avoid them?