What position is historically your countries greatest strength?

I read an article on Martyn Williams. In it he said that he learnt more about open side play in the 2005 Lions tour to NZ than in the rest of his career. he said he came up against world class open sides in every game he played. It got me thinking, each country plays the game slightly differently and contributes in it's own to the global game. What position does your country consistently produce quality players in?

In NZ, for my adult life, the open side has always been revered. I grew up with Graham Mourie, As a young man I witnessed Michael Jones explode onto the scene, more recently Richie McCaw holds a demigod like status. Any team that plays NZ has to combat a good 7. It's probably always been this way. It probably goes back to the rover developed by the Poneke club in the 19th century. We've always had key roving flankers from the days of Gallagher, the great Afro Kiwi Wilson , through to Waka Nathen and the modern heros. We've had heros in other positions, but 7's always seem to be special. Even in the current game, where players have to be multiskilled and positional skills tend to blend it's still a glamour position.

So what are your County's traditional strengths?

England are usually known for having a solid pack but we've actually had a good number of decent scrum halves. It's another matter whether the coaches and managers of the day use them. Dickie Jeeps, for instance, was selected for the Lions before his country came calling.

Two of our most successful captains, Beaumont and Johnson were locks and I suspect that's one of our richer seams.

Easy for an England fan: Clearly known for front row and second row, grunting, hairy men for whom polysyllabics might have been a bridge too far. Scrummaging a wild horde of rampaging elephants would be easy.

England are also known for fine publicans. We work towards perfection here.

However, England are rightfully known the world over for having the world's greatest fly half. Even people who don't know Rugby know Sir Jonny, a Rugby phenomenon. The wimmens certainly know and want a piece JW. No front row can claim that.............

wales 9s....holmes was my personal favourite and philips reminds me of him, but howlers and peel were also greats...then there is the sublime force that was Edwards, arguably the greatest footballer ever and even today he would stand out.

wales 10s....Barry John again arguably the greatest 10 to have ever played...Jiffy wasn't bad either!

Just want to go on record and distance myself from the last 2 posts ^^^!!!

In Wales it was at one time all about the 10 shirt, and we have produced a fair amount of good 10's in the past, but I'm not sure we've carried that tradition on through the dark era of the 80's and 90's. It seems to have changed a bit in the pro era again (at one point we boasted Jones, Robinson, Hook, Henson, who were all international quality 10's, with potentials in Biggar. RP and Tovey who looked excellent at junior level, as did Matthew Morgan, Sam Davies, Patchell)

The problem Wales had is after union managed to retain all their best players, our 10's all seemed to get backed up and moved around to accomodate each other (I have no doubt that allowed to cultivate at 10 Hook wouldve been one of the best around) and Henson, then Hook were both crippled by the Ospreys success at creating 10's.

So despite the 10 shirt being so important in Wales, and despite us producing our fair share of top 10's I don't think this has been our strongest position, and from what I see consistently throughout the history of the game we have always at least one winger in each decade who has stood out and been regarded as a top class player by his peers.

Davies, Evans, Bevan, Williams, Williams, and more recently North showing promise, we just seem to have a winger in every team who is regarded as top class. There is a link to the 9 shirt too, with some wingers making exceptional 9's and other 9's making exceptional winger!

For South Africa Hookers, Locks and Back rowers.

Hard to distinguish which position the most, we always have great depth in the forwards.

In the pack we really have been struggling with Tight Heads though.

Biltong wrote:For South Africa Hookers, Locks and Back rowers.

Hard to distinguish which position the most, we always have great depth in the forwards.

In the pack we really have been struggling with Tight Heads though.

Who hasn't?! I'm starting to think TH's aren't actually a real prospect or position, there are just 2/3 monster scrummagers around in the world today that have abliterated the position for everyone else!

England will definately be in the pack...front rows and second rows...we've had some pretty serious back rowers aswell...but predominantly the front 5.

Ironically it could be said wingers aswell...we've had a conveyor belt of class wingers...we just dont have quality inside backs that get the ball to them...

GeordieFalcon wrote:England will definately be in the pack...front rows and second rows...we've had some pretty serious back rowers aswell...but predominantly the front 5.

Not so sure about the front row. We've had plenty of good units over the years but, unlike the second row, I don't think we always have outstanding individuals.

The best Irish players have been locks and centres:

McBride & Paul O'Connell

Gibson & O'Driscoll

Think you will agree those 4 should all be hall of famers.

Back to the lead post, even when NZ haven't had a superstar 7, they've had bleedin good players in the position. Kronfeld for one.

For England, I agree that we've produced a pretty good assortment of lock forwards over the years (possibly more consistent than any of the front row positions), and also #8 - Dean Richards and Larry Dayglo, in their almsot entirely different ways were both outstanding players there.

Wish Dayglo had played for Ireland by virtue of his Irish mum. He didnt have an English bone in his body as far as I know. Half Irish half Italian isnt he?

NZ does well at 10 as well. I dont care who the greatest is. I grew up with Fox Merths Spencer and Carter. I consider that an embarrassment of riches. The Canterbury ones were the best.

We tend to struggle at 9 and lock. Props can be our Achilles heel too but we seem to have a fine pedigree of hookers.

Wing and fullback have a long list too of household names.

Guns

Wikipedia (which I know is not always entirely reliable) has Mrs Dayglo as being half Irish, so he'd have been eligible through the grandparent rule rather than parentage. As much Irish ancestry as English though (and less than his Italian ancestry).

Still has one of the finest full names ever in sport - Lawrence Bruno Nero Dallaglio.

Like Bluesman says, it depends how far you go back with Wales. If we're talking traditionally, so going back pretty far then over that time we've been know for some flashy 10's and 9's. Also, our wingers have often been very good, esp in the 70's. See, we've always been a fairly small nation (but now import the big guys from England!) so our backs have often been the small, jinking types who had to run around people rather than through them and that made them exciting to watch, and perhpas why the welsh public has such a love affair with the 10 position. Who doesn't like running rugby??? It was the glamorous position made glamorous by small, jinking men running away from the big brutes from England.

Ironically, we have often been a bit weak up front (apart from maybe the 'Viet Gwent' Pontypool front row) but lately it is often our forwards that get the plaudits instead of our backs. I never would have thought that Wales could supply a Lions front row (2007) and could compete so well up front as we have in the last few years, sometimes even dominating the set piece. And now that Shane Williams has hung up his boots it is our backs that have become arguably weaker (not physically) with brute force being their answer over silky skills.

GunsGerms wrote:The best Irish players have been locks and centres:

McBride & Paul O'Connell

Gibson & O'Driscoll

Think you will agree those 4 should all be hall of famers.

Ireland are also developing quite a few top class 10s in recent times from Elwood through Humphreys ROG Sexton and the new generation coming through in Madigan Jackson and guys like Hanrahan waiting in the wings

dummy_half wrote:Guns

Wikipedia (which I know is not always entirely reliable) has Mrs Dayglo as being half Irish, so he'd have been eligible through the grandparent rule rather than parentage. As much Irish ancestry as English though (and less than his Italian ancestry).

Still has one of the finest full names ever in sport - Lawrence Bruno Nero Dallaglio.

Oh ok. He does have a good name alright. Not as good as Dan Darko Luger though.

Is that where they got the film title Donny Darko from?

Have to say when I saw the question, my thought was Welsh posters would have to nominate the 10 jersey - the legend of Welsh rugby is built around the fly half, going back at least as far as Cliff Morgan and solidified by Barry John and Bennett.

The one problem is that their last great fly half was Jiffy - Stephen Jones was a fine professional player, but was not one to set the pulse racing like the older guys.

For Scotland, I'd nominate back row forwards and perhaps scrum halfs. Their successful teams were always based around being scrappy and disruptive, and specialised in having flankers who were always prepared to stick their hands / feet / heads where needed.

GunsGerms wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Guns

Wikipedia (which I know is not always entirely reliable) has Mrs Dayglo as being half Irish, so he'd have been eligible through the grandparent rule rather than parentage. As much Irish ancestry as English though (and less than his Italian ancestry).

Still has one of the finest full names ever in sport - Lawrence Bruno Nero Dallaglio.

Oh ok. He does have a good name alright. Not as good as Dan Darko Luger though.

The NZ 7s player Rocky Khan is my current favourite for good rugby names. Though possibly the best-named sportsman of all time is the Indian (Chennai Super Kings) cricketer Napoleon Einstein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Einstein

dummy_half wrote:Have to say when I saw the question, my thought was Welsh posters would have to nominate the 10 jersey - the legend of Welsh rugby is built around the fly half, going back at least as far as Cliff Morgan and solidified by Barry John and Bennett.

The one problem is that their last great fly half was Jiffy - Stephen Jones was a fine professional player, but was not one to set the pulse racing like the older guys.

For Scotland, I'd nominate back row forwards and perhaps scrum halfs. Their successful teams were always based around being scrappy and disruptive, and specialised in having flankers who were always prepared to stick their hands / feet / heads where needed.

True about Wales, but the headline of this thread says 'historically'. Wales rugby history goes back over 100 years, so just to focus on professionalism and the since the 90's is not getting the whole picture.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Is that where they got the film title Donny Darko from?

Yes

Tricky for NZ with so many good players. Loose forwards are definitely a strength for us and we seem to have had a few good 10s and of course wingers. Probably our weaknesses have been at lock and half back and centres.
If I think of some very good to great players that I remember ( ie early 80s +:
Props - Olo Brown, Hayman
Hooker - Fitzpatrick
Lock - ???
Loose Forwards - Jones, Kronfield, Shelford, McCaw, Brooke
Half backs -???
First fives - Carter, Merthens, Fox,
Second Fives - Little,
Centre - Stanley, Bunce, Umaga, Smith
Wingers - Kirwin, Lomu, Wilson, Howlett
Full Backs - Gallagher, Cullen

Then it seems we have been well served 7,8,10,11,13,14,15

Historical strengths vary over the decades. After all it was only since Geoff Cooke took control of England that we started to get a reputation for a goood pack. Hell in the 70s the England team of students and solicitors was more noted for the backs.

Wales in the 70s - well we all remember Barry John and Phil Bennet, yet the most notable features of those teams were the gnarly forwards, best summed up by the Viet Gwent.

NZ now have a reputation for backs, but they used to be a team of forwards with 9s and 10s who kicked the leather off the ball.

nganboy wrote:Tricky for NZ with so many good players. Loose forwards are definitely a strength for us and we seem to have had a few good 10s and of course wingers. Probably our weaknesses have been at lock and half back and centres.
If I think of some very good to great players that I remember ( ie early 80s +:
Props - Olo Brown, Hayman
Hooker - Fitzpatrick
Lock - ???
Loose Forwards - Jones, Kronfield, Shelford, McCaw, Brooke
Half backs -???
First fives - Carter, Merthens, Fox,
Second Fives - Little,
Centre - Stanley, Bunce, Umaga, Smith
Wingers - Kirwin, Lomu, Wilson, Howlett
Full Backs - Gallagher, Cullen

Then it seems we have been well served 7,8,10,11,13,14,15

Would you not include one of the most NZ capped players of all time in your Full back list?

For Ireland I would say that it is second rows.

Locks: Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Malcolm O'Kelly, Jeremy Davidson, Mick Galwey, Donal Lenihan, Willie John McBride, John O'Driscoll, Moss Keane

I think you've been a bit sparing in certain positions ngan but the holes do indeed tend to be halfback and lock in the modern era. Inside Centre would probably be next but you can add Nonu to Little.

Scotland - in pro era certainly scrumhalf. Armstrong, Redpath, Cusiter, Blair

SA - easily blindside. Smith, Burger, Alberts and a host of other players who would have got into other test sides. Backrow is a conveyor belt of talent.

NZ has had some crackin locks though...

Gary Whetton, Colin Meads, Ian Jones, Brad Thorne etc...hardly poor options...

Ireland's worst position has been scrum half.

There have been some good hookers.

Byrne, Wood, Best and Flannery all selected for the Lions.

Ireland have had a Lion at hooker for all of the last 5 tours. Though Flannery didnt make the plane because of injury.

For Wales, the half-backs were traditionally awesome. At 10, Cliff Morgan, Dai Watkins, Barry John, Phil Bennett, Gareth Davies, Jonathan Davies. Also wingers.

I always think of Ireland having great 2nd rows, Scotland as having great back rowers and scrum-halves, England the back 5 of the scrum, NZ great back-row forwards, SA front-row forwards, Aus 10s (Ella, Lynagh...) and centres, France centres, props and 2nd rows, Argentina generally, the forwards.

Yep for Ireland it would be second rows.

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland's worst position has been scrum half.

True, I was thinking that myself. That could change soon but as of now its still a problem area.

Scotland usual (not best however) position is bent over with our bigger cousin shafting us......... sob

profitius wrote:Yep for Ireland it would be second rows.

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland's worst position has been scrum half.

True, I was thinking that myself. That could change soon but as of now its still a problem area.

Try and name a legendary Irish scrum half. I cant think of any at all whereas I can think of a great player for all other positions.



Edit:.....sorry bar Peter Stringer. Who is a absolute legend in my eyes anyway.

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland's worst position has been scrum half.

There have been some good hookers.

Byrne, Wood, Best and Flannery all selected for the Lions.

Ireland have had a Lion at hooker for all of the last 5 tours. Though Flannery didnt make the plane because of injury.

Ciaran Fitzgerald was another Irish hooker selected for the Lions. Doubt many would include him as a good hooker though.

LondonTiger wrote:

Ciaran Fitzgerald was another Irish hooker selected for the Lions. Doubt many would include him as a good hooker though.

Im not so sure. Regardless of how he did with the Lions he did captain Ireland to a triple crown and five nations win. Cant be that bad because very few Irish players have ever achieved that.

Which country produces the best refs? It's certainly not NZ!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Which country produces the best refs? It's certainly not NZ!

Wales in my opinion. Followed by SA.

dummy_half wrote:Guns

Wikipedia (which I know is not always entirely reliable) has Mrs Dayglo as being half Irish, so he'd have been eligible through the grandparent rule rather than parentage. As much Irish ancestry as English though (and less than his Italian ancestry).

Still has one of the finest full names ever in sport - Lawrence Bruno Nero Dallaglio.

Actually, it's Lorenzo Bruno Nero Dallaglio, which is even better!

That sounds about right GG but when I think of specifics, not many names leap to mind that I'm comfortable with. It's a thankless task. Football had that bald Italian a few years ago. I've never heard a unanimous vote for best rugby ref in the world. Probably an indication of how complex the rugby laws are. As well as how ungrateful we are when a ref does adjudicate well during a game.

For England I would say we specialise in producing world class blindside flankers that aren't fully appreciated during their career!

Mike Teague
Tim rodber
Joe Worsley
Martin corry
Richard hill
Tom croft

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Ciaran Fitzgerald was another Irish hooker selected for the Lions. Doubt many would include him as a good hooker though.

Im not so sure. Regardless of how he did with the Lions he did captain Ireland to a triple crown and five nations win. Cant be that bad because very few Irish players have ever achieved that.

Yes he did, hence why he was selected to captain the Lions. Was still a decidedly average hooker though.

sirtidychris wrote:For England I would say we specialise in producing world class blindside flankers that aren't fully appreciated during their career!

Mike Teague
Tim rodber
Joe Worsley
Martin corry
Richard hill
Tom croft

Not forgetting Mike Rafter and Roger Uttley.

I thought Rafter was an openside?

LondonTiger wrote:I thought Rafter was an openside?

He was on the blindside during the 1980 Grand Slam. Tony Neary was the open side.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Ciaran Fitzgerald was another Irish hooker selected for the Lions. Doubt many would include him as a good hooker though.

Im not so sure. Regardless of how he did with the Lions he did captain Ireland to a triple crown and five nations win. Cant be that bad because very few Irish players have ever achieved that.

Yes he did, hence why he was selected to captain the Lions. Was still a decidedly average hooker though.

Great captain, average player. A bit like the opposite of Sam Warburton

Loosies, 10's, wingers and fullbacks for NZ.

Fullbacks havnt much of a mention but weve always had them- except, like 10's for the horrible 70's- our worst decade.

Billy Wallace, Nepia, Bob Scott, Don Clark, Fergie McCormick, John Gallagher, Cullen, Dagg (all good kiwi names) and Mils.

9 for Wales EASILY!!!

LIONS:

2013 Philips
2009 Phillips
2005 Peel Cooper
2001 Howley
1997 Howley
1993 Robert Jones
1989 Robert Jones

Then there's Holmes and some lesser known Edwards guy. All lions.

GunsGerms wrote:

nganboy wrote:Tricky for NZ with so many good players. Loose forwards are definitely a strength for us and we seem to have had a few good 10s and of course wingers. Probably our weaknesses have been at lock and half back and centres.
If I think of some very good to great players that I remember ( ie early 80s +:
Props - Olo Brown, Hayman
Hooker - Fitzpatrick
Lock - ???
Loose Forwards - Jones, Kronfield, Shelford, McCaw, Brooke
Half backs -???
First fives - Carter, Merthens, Fox,
Second Fives - Little,
Centre - Stanley, Bunce, Umaga, Smith
Wingers - Kirwin, Lomu, Wilson, Howlett
Full Backs - Gallagher, Cullen

Then it seems we have been well served 7,8,10,11,13,14,15

Would you not include one of the most NZ capped players of all time in your Full back list?

Nah, Mils was good but not great IMO. Ditto with Nonu (I would prefer Mauger or even players like Alatini and Shuster).
Ian Jones, Gary Whetton, Norm Hewitt etc were all very good players but in my mind not in the same class as the players I have listed as real stars of the game. I limited by selection to players I remembered watching. Probably goes to show I don't know enough about forward play.

Tough one, as others have indicated its prob backrow for Scotland where we have a strong heritage or else scrum half (R Laidlaw, A Lawson, D Morgan, G Armstrong, B Redpath, A Nicol, C Cusiter, M Blair, R Lawson, G Laidlaw and I'm expecting S Kennedy to join that lineage)