Team Wales to hamper Regions ONCE AGAIN

So after a gruelling lions tour for our boys which will, no doubt, be followed by a well earnt rest (at the expense of pre-season training with their regions and probably the first few P12 games) we believed there'd only be 3 AI test matches and that the regions would, finally, have a bit of time with their players to prepare for the december HEC double headers...

wrong!

"ARU boss Bill Pulver announced in Sydney that the Wallabies will play Wales in Cardiff on their of end-of-season tour, which will make it a grand slam event.
It will be only the third time the Wallabies have played all four British and Irish nations on tour since Alan Jones's victorious 1984 team.

The Welsh Test, to be held on November 30, has been added to the schedeule mainly as a revenue-raising exercise.

Apart from playing the four home unions, the Wallabies will also play Italy.

The last grand slam tour was in 2009"

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/rugby-union/wallabies-add-wales-to-fixture-list-to-make-grand-slam-tour/story-e6frg7o6-1226654050260


And there it is, Team Wales once again chasing the cash and accepting this test match at the expense of player burn out and the regions who pay their wages. Good going Roger, i can't wait to see the fall out of this.

I don't think Wales will hold onto the 6 nations crown.

After a Lions tour France have always won the 6 nations, in the professional era. This has been attrubited to the home nations best players needing a break after the Lions tour.

This time I think it will be between Ireland and France. Scotland and Italy could make more inroads.

Wales, extra AI test game, and players will be used by regions as much as the region can play them.
England, clubs will play players as much as they can.
Ireland, have the best player rest programme, a new head coach, and Bod's final year. Think that out of England, Wales and Ireland, the Irish players will be the best rested, while the others will appear to be in need of a break.
France, wooden spoon last year, they could be great or they could have another bad year, who knows?
Scotland, only 3 Lions had a good 6 nations last year, could be dark horses, but I think maybe winning it is a step to far.

I think the regions want more money from WRU, and they want their players fresh for the Heineken Cup. Unfortunately, they can't have both, because the best way for the WRU to generate more money is to play an international a week before the HC. I would rather the regions to get less money from the WRU and a fresh squad for the HC.

How much is the average Welsh ticket to an AI (against one of the big three)?

About £55-£60 on average I reckon. Cheapest about £45, most expensive £75. Not 100% on that mind.

international197 wrote:I think the regions want more money from WRU, and they want their players fresh for the Heineken Cup. Unfortunately, they can't have both, because the best way for the WRU to generate more money is to play an international a week before the HC. I would rather the regions to get less money from the WRU and a fresh squad for the HC.

You make it sound like the Regions would have a chance to compete. Even during the high point when Ospreys had a ridiculous budget and playing squad they couldn't win the HC.

Bottom line is that the HC is not a level playing field. Regions under the current climate cannot win it regardless of resting players. Bottom line is we lack the clinical hard nose edge. Its all well and good being flash but sometimes you just need a no nonsense approach.

What I cant believe is that given the current complaint from the French/English regarding the format I'm surprised that the Celts & Italians haven't hit back with a local player and squad budget rule. It seems unfair that the 2 French sides who contested the HC final barely had a handful of Frenchmen on the teamsheets.

Either way your kidding yourself if you think with the current seeding this year there is any chance a Welsh side will make the Quarters. Ospreys are probably the only ones and even then the draw has to be extremely kind to them which it never is. BTW this is not me being a defeatist but just realistic. HC will see another French winner next year.

So actually the move makes perfect sense to me as the exposure will help them for their World Cup campaign - which if they win it (granted its a longshot) is worth millions to WRU who will no doubt rechannel this money into benefiting the game in Wales.

So WRU get about £4.5M for the game in tickets. No idea how much profit they make from a game. But this game exists because of the £6M they give the region (on top of the extra release time before AI and before/during 6 nations).

I know the PRL agreed to one extra AI game every other year AND they get half the profits on top of the money given to them by the RFU for the release time.

Thing is looking at our first choice (ish) Team Wales-:

Halfpenny (Blues), North (Saints), Davies (Scarlets), Roberts (Racing Metro?), Cuthbert (Blues), Biggar (Ospreys), Phillips (Bayonne);
Jenkins (Blues), Hibbard (Ospreys), Jones (Ospreys), Evans (Ospreys), AW Jones (Ospreys), Lydiate (Racing Metro?), Warburton (Blues), Faletau (Dragons)
Bench -: Owens (Scarlets), James (Bath), Mitchell (Exeter), Charteris (USAP?), Tipuric (Ospreys), L Williams (Blues), Hook (USAP), Sc Williams (Scarlets)

So that would be us missing four first choice players, almost a full bench, from this match because it is outside the IRB Window, meaning we will need to draft in players who may not be up to grade, which will make it a bit of a joke game anyway, plus we will be even more unlikely to win. Surely even the pink hats must have started to wise up to the fact that some of the players are missing. I appreciate that it will bring in a few extra pound coins to the WRU but surely they should start looking at trying to encourage support in the regions as opposed to doing they best to deprive the regions of the support by playing on the same day/weekend that the regions will be in Rabo action.

Seeing as this is right before the openning HEC weekend, it really is a bit of a poop job on the regions. Also I predict the Scarlets will be away to a side that we should beat, when Wales play Aus, but end up losing too many players to the squad and lose the game (like Ulster away 11-12 season, and Ulster home 12-13 season) which really gets me fuming.


Also what happened to the whole, seeing as it is a Lions year, and the players are going to be missing/stuggling with burn out? I thought that was the official line for ounly 3 AIs this year.

Welshmushroom wrote:

international197 wrote:I think the regions want more money from WRU, and they want their players fresh for the Heineken Cup. Unfortunately, they can't have both, because the best way for the WRU to generate more money is to play an international a week before the HC. I would rather the regions to get less money from the WRU and a fresh squad for the HC.

You make it sound like the Regions would have a chance to compete. Even during the high point when Ospreys had a ridiculous budget and playing squad they couldn't win the HC.

Bottom line is that the HC is not a level playing field. Regions under the current climate cannot win it regardless of resting players. Bottom line is we lack the clinical hard nose edge. Its all well and good being flash but sometimes you just need a no nonsense approach.

What I cant believe is that given the current complaint from the French/English regarding the format I'm surprised that the Celts & Italians haven't hit back with a local player and squad budget rule. It seems unfair that the 2 French sides who contested the HC final barely had a handful of Frenchmen on the teamsheets.

Either way your kidding yourself if you think with the current seeding this year there is any chance a Welsh side will make the Quarters. Ospreys are probably the only ones and even then the draw has to be extremely kind to them which it never is. BTW this is not me being a defeatist but just realistic. HC will see another French winner next year.

So actually the move makes perfect sense to me as the exposure will help them for their World Cup campaign - which if they win it (granted its a longshot) is worth millions to WRU who will no doubt rechannel this money into benefiting the game in Wales.

I disagree. I think every region has a chance of winning the Heineken Cup, if they're thrifty, and I would prefer them to rest their players.

I can't see why the Ospreys, Scarlets or Blues are always written off as being 'lucky to get to the QFs'. The Scarlets and Blues both made the semi-finals with clean sweeps of their pools (and they both had hard teams to face too), and the Ospreys have made a handful of QFs.

Given the first game in a tournament is pretty important for moral etc, just look at Wales in 6Ns, the fac that Team Wales rob the regions of their big name players (and then next best players to cover players in France/England), it is always going to be an uphill struggle. I honestly think that the regions could stand a fighting chance if we were able to train as a team for a week or two before.

Wales and Australia again??????

Okay, this is like a good movie that's been overplayed a tad now.

Are these two secretly in-love? Did the redhead sleep with the yellow haired one's ex-boyfirend's best mate and she's unhappy coz she wasn't really broken off at all and thinks the redhead is just jealous of her tan that she didn't buy from a bottle or an injection or nothing.................

Find out in the Next Episode! (cue Eastenders music)

SecretFly wrote:Wales and Australia again??????

Okay, this is like a good movie that's been overplayed a tad now.

Are these two secretly in-love? Did the redhead sleep with the yellow haired one's ex-boyfirend's best mate and she's unhappy coz she wasn't really broken off at all and thinks the redhead is just jealous of her tan that she didn't buy from a bottle or an injection or nothing.................

Find out in the Next Episode! (cue Eastenders music)

Practic for the World Cup. Lull them into a sense of security and BAM.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Wales and Australia again??????

Okay, this is like a good movie that's been overplayed a tad now.

Are these two secretly in-love? Did the redhead sleep with the yellow haired one's ex-boyfirend's best mate and she's unhappy coz she wasn't really broken off at all and thinks the redhead is just jealous of her tan that she didn't buy from a bottle or an injection or nothing.................

Find out in the Next Episode! (cue Eastenders music)

Practic for the World Cup. Lull them into a sense of security and BAM.

Who is doing the lulling?

HammerofThunor wrote:Practic for the World Cup. Lull them into a sense of security and BAM.

Truth is games like this are why we have a hard pool in the RWC, if we played the fourth AI every year against Romania/USA/Canada etc then we would most likely be in a better pool, and have capped a few new faces along the way too. And winning games brings in people through the turnstyles.

On a more serious note. The reasons these are scheduled is because the Regions agreed to them for the £6M. Hopefully they'll use this knowledge when the agreement is renegotiated. If it happens again you have to blaim the regions for it.

As for Australia, I suppose it's because New Zealand refused for 'player welfare' reasons. So you would have had only South Africa as the big game. The smaller ones don't tend to sell out so one big game would result in a massive fall off. Also, since a lot of PI, US and Canadian players are in Europe they wouldn't be released for it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I can't see why the Ospreys, Scarlets or Blues are always written off as being 'lucky to get to the QFs'. The Scarlets and Blues both made the semi-finals with clean sweeps of their pools (and they both had hard teams to face too), and the Ospreys have made a handful of QFs.

Given the first game in a tournament is pretty important for moral etc, just look at Wales in 6Ns, the fac that Team Wales rob the regions of their big name players (and then next best players to cover players in France/England), it is always going to be an uphill struggle. I honestly think that the regions could stand a fighting chance if we were able to train as a team for a week or two before.

Usually I would agree with you in the past. However given the current state of French clubs signings from the SH & NH and allowing for the fact Regions squads are losing some of their best players I fail to see the ambition from them. Like I said the Ospreys are the only welsh side with a pack capable of matching the top sides in Europe. The reason they are at disadvantage last season and this year is that they lack any cutting edge behind as their wingers are seriously inexperienced and they lack depth. Granted Scarlets have some great backs but without a pack (as Ulster showed against them) it makes little difference.

I'm not saying they are not capable of pulling upsets off. But you have to be realistic and look at the likely pool outcomes. Even with a month of preparation I think it would make little difference. Part of the problem for me is that in terms of coaches we really lack quality. We used to have some really experienced guys managing those sides. Scarlets are giving Easterby a go. Dragons that useless Edwards. Ospreys with Tandy. Blues with Phil (who is actually experienced at top level even without the best track record). Bottom line is success starts at the top and without first rate managers we will reap what we sow. I'm all for developing talent from within but you still need people with proven track records at the top of the tree. Just my opinion though

Its also worth noting that Tonga & Argentina will probably not be sell outs either. Additionally some of the better players may be rested or rotated.

What I don't get is that if the WRU need the extra game for revenue, and they clearly want it to take place there has to be a limit for the players sakes, given that it's lions year too.

This fixture is a clear statement to all 4 regions, 'we are in control, we own the game, and we'll do whatever we like'!

If the extra game has to take place surely a stipulation of something like an amateur game, U25's, or even a Wales v world XV (where we could get away with fielding a younger hungry team). I think these 3 options would still attract big crowds, and allow the key players to recover and prep decently for their regions HC games!

Take Adam Jones for example, cast iron in his position for any team he plays for...

A full season of club rugby

A full 6N

A full Lions tour

Then straight back into regional rugby

AI's follow with no real rest and

HC just incase he isn't quite spent, or has limbs hanging off!!

That workload for a pro rugby player is just crazy, and regular flogging of these players will ensure logevity is reduced!!!

Yeah but the WRU are trying to establish proper management.

You only have to look at the Regions independent accounts to realize that the Benefactors are each Region are not managing them as businesses. Its all well and good going for glory and all that but they should be focusing on making them going concerns and then actually investing their money in youth level structures which would probably secure their own individual regions for the next 2 decades.

Ill give kudos to Pie Thomas at least for making Pitch improvements. Until they start putting the facilities in place to allow top quality rugby we can forget about player retention.

Look at the SRU. They reduced their debt and underfunded their regions since the move to Celtic Rugby. Then when they had money in the bank they increased the funding to both teams to allow them to be competitive again.

Welshmushroom wrote:Yeah but the WRU are trying to establish proper management.

You only have to look at the Regions independent accounts to realize that the Benefactors are each Region are not managing them as businesses. Its all well and good going for glory and all that but they should be focusing on making them going concerns and then actually investing their money in youth level structures which would probably secure their own individual regions for the next 2 decades.

Ill give kudos to Pie Thomas at least for making Pitch improvements. Until they start putting the facilities in place to allow top quality rugby we can forget about player retention.

Look at the SRU. They reduced their debt and underfunded their regions since the move to Celtic Rugby. Then when they had money in the bank they increased the funding to both teams to allow them to be competitive again.

Ditching one of them and putting all their eggs in 2 baskets in the process, and having to rely on SQ players wherever they may come from in the process.

I'm not sure the Scottish route is the way to go, But then I don't think the Irish or NZ route is either. What we are currently lacking is our own heritage and culture, and anything we do to mimic others structures will fail, as the regional model is doing so currently!

Firstly the New Zealand model is the best around. They have clearly proved it on the biggest stage of all repeatedly for the past 40 years.

Factor in that the other top 2 nations mimic this system (South Africa & Australia) and clearly there is no denying there is a better system of producing the very best players in World Rugby. If there was one area to be critical was the increase to S15 as Australia, New Zealand and South Africa didn't really have the talent pools to facilitate this and its dropped their squad depth at Super Rugby level. However given they had to do something as the S15 required a fresh injection of teams to generate interest and money it was what they chose to do.

Ireland's system is actually a successful one. They have lifted the HC on several occasions. They rely on bringing in just a couple of top draw players to compensate for their internationals being away. Granted Connacht are a total mess as the Irish Rugby Union never really treated them on equal grounds as the other 3 provinces. Things are changing on this front though.

At International level Ireland have been poor given their success at provincial level. In fairness to them they have been small margins at times and they have struggled to bring through youth in recent times. Due to the amount of players retiring there was always going to be a period where Irish rugby adjusts for the next generation of players coming through.

Blues, I actually think regional rugby has been successful. The major factor which is influencing all the models above is France who's pure finance is putting a strain on player retention and top foreign import acquisitions. The French model is unsustainable in the long term. Also I don't think this 6 nations was a blip. France have lost a lot of players through retirements but the ones left are overplayed and there are no development pathways in place due to the massive influx of foreign players.

So the real question becomes - are you the type of Rugby fan who would rather see the following scenario:

Wales win a World Cup - Your regional team never makes an impact in Europe and has moderate success in a league where all the participating teams operate on similar structures.

Your Club wins a HC - Wales become a Tier 2 nation and play the likes of Romania, Russia etc and struggle to qualify for the World Cup.

Its also worth noting some of your hang ups are actually more the fault or your chairman/managers than the blame lies with the WRU. The mismanagement of the regions at times is poor at best. At least the WRU operate a money making system.

SecretFly wrote:Wales and Australia again??????

Okay, this is like a good movie that's been overplayed a tad now.

Are these two secretly in-love? Did the redhead sleep with the yellow haired one's ex-boyfirend's best mate and she's unhappy coz she wasn't really broken off at all and thinks the redhead is just jealous of her tan that she didn't buy from a bottle or an injection or nothing.................

Find out in the Next Episode! (cue Eastenders music)

They both like money

Pfft and yawn. Thought it was only going to be 3 AIs this year.

"a revenue-raising exercise" WTF!!!

"The Welsh Test, to be held on November 30, has been added to the schedeule mainly as a revenue-raising exercise."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/rugby-union/wallabies-add-wales-to-fixture-list-to-make-grand-slam-tour/story-e6frg7o6-1226654050260?utm_source=Kazi+Media+Group&utm_medium=Kazi+Media+Group&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheAustralianSportsNews+%28The+Australian+|+Sport%29

Welshmushroom wrote:Firstly the New Zealand model is the best around. They have clearly proved it on the biggest stage of all repeatedly for the past 40 years.

Factor in that the other top 2 nations mimic this system (South Africa & Australia) and clearly there is no denying there is a better system of producing the very best players in World Rugby. If there was one area to be critical was the increase to S15 as Australia, New Zealand and South Africa didn't really have the talent pools to facilitate this and its dropped their squad depth at Super Rugby level. However given they had to do something as the S15 required a fresh injection of teams to generate interest and money it was what they chose to do.

Ireland's system is actually a successful one. They have lifted the HC on several occasions. They rely on bringing in just a couple of top draw players to compensate for their internationals being away. Granted Connacht are a total mess as the Irish Rugby Union never really treated them on equal grounds as the other 3 provinces. Things are changing on this front though.

At International level Ireland have been poor given their success at provincial level. In fairness to them they have been small margins at times and they have struggled to bring through youth in recent times. Due to the amount of players retiring there was always going to be a period where Irish rugby adjusts for the next generation of players coming through.

Blues, I actually think regional rugby has been successful. The major factor which is influencing all the models above is France who's pure finance is putting a strain on player retention and top foreign import acquisitions. The French model is unsustainable in the long term. Also I don't think this 6 nations was a blip. France have lost a lot of players through retirements but the ones left are overplayed and there are no development pathways in place due to the massive influx of foreign players.

So the real question becomes - are you the type of Rugby fan who would rather see the following scenario:

Wales win a World Cup - Your regional team never makes an impact in Europe and has moderate success in a league where all the participating teams operate on similar structures.

Your Club wins a HC - Wales become a Tier 2 nation and play the likes of Romania, Russia etc and struggle to qualify for the World Cup.

Its also worth noting some of your hang ups are actually more the fault or your chairman/managers than the blame lies with the WRU. The mismanagement of the regions at times is poor at best. At least the WRU operate a money making system.

Could not agree more with this post although I honestly believe with the development structures/pathways in place we eventually will be able to have 2-3 very strong regions full of wq players even with players leaving to play abroad.

NZ are consistantly the best side in world rugby, often their franchises win the S15 and they also supple a hefty number of players abroad both to domestic and national sides

I say again with the right structures in place which I believe the regional set up has got right we can be in a similar position in the future

Blues, I actually think regional rugby has been successful. The major factor which is influencing all the models above is France who's pure finance is putting a strain on player retention and top foreign import acquisitions. The French model is unsustainable in the long term. Also I don't think this 6 nations was a blip. France have lost a lot of players through retirements but the ones left are overplayed and there are no development pathways in place due to the massive influx of foreign players.

So the real question becomes - are you the type of Rugby fan who would rather see the following scenario:

Wales win a World Cup - Your regional team never makes an impact in Europe and has moderate success in a league where all the participating teams operate on similar structures.

Your Club wins a HC - Wales become a Tier 2 nation and play the likes of Romania, Russia etc and struggle to qualify for the World Cup.

Its also worth noting some of your hang ups are actually more the fault or your chairman/managers than the blame lies with the WRU. The mismanagement of the regions at times is poor at best. At least the WRU operate a money making system.

I'm not sure what of this applies to me, I am not the person vilifying either the WRU or the regional owners, I just recognise the faults from both sides!

I also think the regional model could be extremely succesfull, but as it stands it's too flawed, especially as the prem has been left to rot!

The issue for me when we talk talent production and player pathway is our crooked and limited junior system! It wouldn't really matter how succesfull our pro model was if our junior system could produce the amount of quality and quantity that the NZ system does!

Good another chance to try and have a go at beating Australia.
I can't see what the problem is.

Shifty wrote:Good another chance to try and have a go at beating Australia.
I can't see what the problem is.

Well how do you fancy the Ospreys chances against Saints, Leinster or Castre with only four to six days together, heaven forbid away? I reckon you have a chance if your team are fit and well, and I have less faith in your chances with no team preparation time.

Whoooosh!!!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Shifty wrote:Good another chance to try and have a go at beating Australia.
I can't see what the problem is.

Well how do you fancy the Ospreys chances against Saints, Leinster or Castre with only four to six days together, heaven forbid away? I reckon you have a chance if your team are fit and well, and I have less faith in your chances with no team preparation time.

Same shít different year mate, win our home games, lose our away games and get eliminated at the group stages. The only difference is Jonathan Humphreys isn't on the coaching staff anymore to blame Wales.
The Scarlets and Blues will probably lose 5 of their 6 games anyway, so it makes no difference to them either way.

HammerofThunor wrote:On a more serious note. The reasons these are scheduled is because the Regions agreed to them for the £6M. Hopefully they'll use this knowledge when the agreement is renegotiated. If it happens again you have to blaim the regions for it.

Good point and it's something I/we tend to forget. Also I seem to remember an ad hoc deal being done in a service station off the M4 not so long ago. Welsh rugby really needs to sorts itself out asap. I still can't believe Rog is on a reported £300,000+. That's more than Halfpenny and he can kick as well.

Was this deal the refusal of players to head off on a world cup tour unless they got more dosh.

Allty wrote:Was this deal the refusal of players to head off on a world cup tour unless they got more dosh.

No idea actually Allty.

Shifty wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Shifty wrote:Good another chance to try and have a go at beating Australia.
I can't see what the problem is.

Well how do you fancy the Ospreys chances against Saints, Leinster or Castre with only four to six days together, heaven forbid away? I reckon you have a chance if your team are fit and well, and I have less faith in your chances with no team preparation time.

Same shít different year mate, win our home games, lose our away games and get eliminated at the group stages. The only difference is Jonathan Humphreys isn't on the coaching staff anymore to blame Wales.
The Scarlets and Blues will probably lose 5 of their 6 games anyway, so it makes no difference to them either way.

You gotta be honest Shifty, when you're grouped with Castres, Leinster and Northampton this seriously hampers your already slim chances. Although Gats will probably rest players against Tonga the extra fixture still disrupts preparation, all this after getting flogged on the Lions tour.