Jamie George to get a chance?

Schalk Brits has been banned for 3 weeks following his punch on Owen Farrell yesterday. The disciplinary commissioner has stated that the 3 weeks are to begin at the start of next season and are to run up to, and including, the 3rd AP match of the season.

With John Smit's retirement, I guess this means not-so-young-anymore Jamie George will actually get a little run of starts and get a chance to show what he can bring to the Sarries pack. If they are to kick on from this last season where they were good but ultimately dissapointed, perhaps they need the extra grunt he could provide - over the more ephemeral offerings of Brits?

Unless they sign another hooker, Ross Ford has been linked.

Been a tough season for George, I'm a little surprised he's stayed as there's a few teams that would have snapped him up and offered him more game time. He must buy into the development plan Sarries have for him.

Apparently Saracens have offered him a nice african redwood to sit on next year instead of sitka spruce, which has swayed his decision to stay. They have also got a new isotonic sports drink called 'Talent' its very potent so you only take a couple of sips then pour the rest down the drain....this also has persuaded Jamie to continue his time with sarries.

Did the citing commissioner not say something about the pre-season warm-up games possibly counting if they were deemed 'important enough' for Sarries, or have I read that incorrectly?

He did indeed (expect Sarries to name 4 high profile pre season games), what was classed as important is open to interpretation but currently he is missing the first three games.

Someone needs to get him to lose the excess 5 guts he's accumulated from sitting on the bench and following the John Smit conditioning plan. Given the professionalism of Sarries it amazes me how all of their front row forwards look horribly out of shape. A player who was hyped on the back of zilch. He actually looked decent in the couple of cameos I saw at the end of the year so who knows. I'm not holding my breath on him amounting to anything.

Last season he was a nobody, the season before he showed up really well and was rotated with the other hookers. Not overly sure why they didn't do that last season rather than letting him rot.

Consistency would be nice wouldn't it?

Brits does something very stupid in Barbarians game vs the Lions. Misses 3 games of the next AP season.

Hartley does something very stupid in the AP final - Saints vs Leicester. Misses no AP games.

In regards to Jamie George. I am happy he looks likely to get his chance to shine. Long overdue.

Hood83 I wouldn't say Jamie George is overhyped.Before Tom Youngs made his international debut there seemed to be a lack of hooker contenders.

Jamie George as an ex England U20s player is expected to make progress.

I reckon Hartley's punishment was much worse than Brits. Hartley potentially cost his team a chance of winning the title and lost a once in a lifetime opportunity for personal development.

Londontiger Hartley won't miss any games next season in the AP though. That's my point.

By the way I am not condoning Brit's idiotic punch. It was stupid but the incident happened in a relatively unimportant match (a match that has nothing to do with the AP).

Just annoyed that there is one rule for one player and one for another.

If Hartley's ban can run through warm ups then so should Brit's ban. Alternatively I wouldn't mind if both players miss 3 games at the start of the season.

Why should Hartley miss games next season, he has missed the Lions tour - that is massive. Yes Saracens fans may feel hard done by that they lose a player - but blame Brits he threw the punch.

Sounds like you want a harsher punishment for Hartley than the one he got?

Londontiger you don't seem to understand do you? Do I need to write in CAPSLOCK? I know this is patronising but I genuinely feel like you missing the mark by a long long way.

JUST TO MAKE THINGS CLEAR:

BRITS DESERVES TO BE BANNED. I DON'T DENY THAT.


HARTLEY COMMITTED AN OFFENSE IN AN AP MATCH BUT WILL MISS NO IMPORTANT AP GAMES BECAUSE OF THE BAN.

THE LIONS TOUR DOES NOT INVOLVE THE AP. IT IS IRRELEVANT TO AN AP BASED PUNISHMENT.

IN CONTRAST SCHALK BRITS WILL MISS AP GAMES DESPITE NOT CAUSING HIS OFFENSE DURING AN AP GAME. BRIT'S BAN ONLY STARTS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON WHEREAS HARTLEY'S RUNS FROM NOW.

FOR HARTLEY WARM UP MATCHES WILL COUNT TOWARDS HIS BAN, FOR BRITS AS THINGS STAND WARM UP MATCHES DO NOT COUNT TOWARDS HIS BAN.

YOU CALL THIS FAIR DO YOU?

ALL I AM LOOKING FOR IS CONSISTENCY. EVIDENTLY THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO YOU BUT IT IS TO ME.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger you don't seem to understand do you? Do I need to write in CAPSLOCK? I know this is patronising but I genuinely feel like you missing the mark by a long long way.

JUST TO MAKE THINGS CLEAR:

BRITS DESERVES TO BE BANNED. I DON'T DENY THAT.


HARTLEY COMMITTED AN OFFENSE IN AN AP MATCH BUT WILL MISS NO IMPORTANT AP GAMES BECAUSE OF THE BAN.

THE LIONS TOUR DOES NOT INVOLVE THE AP. IT IS IRRELEVANT TO AN AP BASED PUNISHMENT.

IN CONTRAST SCHALK BRITS WILL MISS AP GAMES DESPITE NOT CAUSING HIS OFFENSE DURING AN AP GAME. BRIT'S BAN ONLY STARTS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON WHEREAS HARTLEY'S RUNS FROM NOW.

FOR HARTLEY WARM UP MATCHES WILL COUNT TOWARDS HIS BAN, FOR BRITS AS THINGS STAND WARM UP MATCHES DO NOT COUNT TOWARDS HIS BAN.

YOU CALL THIS FAIR DO YOU?

ALL I AM LOOKING FOR IS CONSISTENCY. EVIDENTLY THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO YOU BUT IT IS TO ME.

Fair enough Beshocked, in Brits' case I'd say a ban covering warmups (how many will Sarries play? 3?) plus maybe a week of the season would be fairer. In Hartley's case, missing the Lions tour is a pretty harsh punishment as is, missing some regular season games on top might be stretching things a bit far.


While there are those who favour competition-specific bans, personally I'm of the opinion that foul play is foul play - and the punishment needs to be immediate. If that means missing internationals due to club incidents or vice versa, so be it - if you inconvenience your club while on int. duty by getting a ban they'll make their annoyance known (I presume clubs stop paying wages during suspensions?), and hopefully help the player learn a lesson.

Pete C I agree with that.

As I said I am not saying Brits should escape punishment. Just want to see the same rules applied to all players. E.g. if warm ups count towards one players ban they should count for every player.

I think bans should be for matches not weeks. It gets a bit difficult when taking into account something like a Lion's tour as you don't know how involved a player would be anyway.

Have seen Jamie George play live twice (against Worcester). It was only a snapshot so I am not going to declare about his talent, and nor am I going to be swung by my teams two rather unexpected victories. However, he does seem to have been to the same pie eating school as Matt Stevens. I fear that the Sarries conditioning coaches have got their work cut out if he is going to move onto the next level. He (nor his illustrious Lion colleague) appear at all like elite athletes.

This is not sour grapes. My team can only dream of the lofty hights that Sarries have recently produced. It is just an observation about a player who is clearly out of condition.

beshocked wrote:Pete C I agree with that.

As I said I am not saying Brits should escape punishment. Just want to see the same rules applied to all players. E.g. if warm ups count towards one players ban they should count for every player.

I think bans should be for matches not weeks. It gets a bit difficult when taking into account something like a Lion's tour as you don't know how involved a player would be anyway.

If you read the judicial write-up for Hartley's ban the panel tried to guestimate the number of matches he would have played on tour (his defence tried to claim he'd play all of them of course), then set the remainder of the ban accordingly.

1) Beshocked i can see your arguement for consistency...but in this case i think missing a lions tour is pretty damn tough punishment...and chances are he wont get another opportunity.

2) Surely the physical appearance is irrelevant...its about how long they last...can they cope with the demands for 80 mins...and they seem able to.

tooboredtowork to be fair I don't know why but Saracens struggle particularly badly away vs Worcester. Were both the matches you saw at Sixways? Not sure that is the fairest snapshot but fair enough to give your view.

I agree to a certain extent but remember Mako Vunipola even though he's also a big man has improved a lot whilst playing for Saracens. He has praised the conditioning. This is an example of a ex England u20s players flourishing.

What these players need more than anything is gametime.

Jamie George simply hasn't had the opportunities. A sustained run of games is what players need.

Look at Fraser,both Vunipola bros, your own Ksevic,Burns,Tomkins,Wade,Tom Youngs,Launchbury etc.

Tigers have invested in Tait now look at him.

Then look at the players who haven't had much game time - Ford,Clegg,Gray,Saull,Short. All players with potential but not been getting those opportunities.

Basically players need to be trusted to fill in.

Saull and Clegg should get plenty of games next season...will interesting to see

How have Cato and Powell being doing for you Geordie?

They are another two players who haven't quite shone either.

Beshocked:

Yes, I saw the last two games at Sixways. I wouldn't worry, teams only seem to lose to us when they completely underestimate us (very easy to do) and switch off entirely. This is what happened when you guys last visited and was also in an international window. I cannot see the same happening again. The year before was also in an international window. Your team played the most wonderful expansive rugby I have seen since Meehan's Bath. How we won that match still has the Sixway's faithful scratching their heads.

I agree, that it is not a good snapshot of Jamie's talents, which is why I tried not to deliver a verdict on that subject. My point was that I was really looking forward to watching him play, and was alarmed by the size of his girth. I would not want to comment on his talent, but I think his application to personal fitness needs addressing. This, at least, is easier to address than a lack of talent.

On a separate note, and as alluded to earlier I was blown away by the speed and width of the Sarries attack two years ago, and in particular by Adam Powell. I too would be interested to know how he is getting on at Falcons, as he looked really pretty special.

Powell has done well Beshocked...had his moments. Does seem to be a bit one dimensional (dare i say predictable) at the moment...but hopefully as he gets more gametime and confidence he will start to show his full array of skills.

Cato however is getting seriously mixed reviews. Personally im not a fan...Ashton has had much criticism for lack of "bottle and tackling" well they want to have a look at Cato...the guy just doesnt seem interested in physical stuff. Im not sure we'll see the potential being brought out in him...more likely Kibirige or someone else being brought in.

Agree with those that question his weight issues on here, it is not good enough to say 'as long as he lasts 80 mins'. There is lasting and there is having an explosive impact too which he now does not offer.

I remember watching Jamie in the Eng U20s and he was so far ahead of the 2 young Quins hookers but now is light years behind them. It isn't good enough to say he hasn't been given the chance as that has nothing to do with why he is carrying an excess of 10kg of dead weight.

A good example of a dedicated player is Rob Buchanan who IMHO does not have the raw talent of Jamie George but has got himself in excellent condition that he now carries outstandingly well. Compare the shapes, Buchanan has huge arms and chest which enables him to make a big impact, where as Jamie is quite frankly in embarrassing shape for a professional athlete. There is no excuse to be carrying that much fat on his body. I hope it gets sorted as like I said the guy truly has huge potential.

tooboredwork you can be expansive but ultimately it's precision and efficiency which wins matches. You can create numerous try scoring opportunities but if you don't turn them into tries....

I agree that Jamie isn't the greatest physical specimen but we'll have to wait and see what he does with his opportunity.

Geordiefalcon that's exactly the feeling we Sarries fans had with Cato. Shame to see he hasn't changed his mindset.

Student,

I wasnt merely saying he "needs to last" i of course did mean working at a high tempo for 80 mins. There are many players who look totally unfit who have rediculous fitness levels....the much maligned Thomas Waldrom being one.
I havent seen George play so cant judge if he's one of those. Certainly he is behind a host of other youngsters now in England running...and thats if he gets to first choice for his club. Lots to do...think he should have moved on...interestingly i said at the start of last season..a season with us would have been perfect for him and us. We need a quality hooker...he would have had lots of gametime and put under our equally good conditioning routines.

GeordieFalcon,

sorry if it came across as I was having a go from that comment as not my intention. I do get annoyed by players like Jamie as I know players shape do vary but this this is an example of someone carrying around far too much fat. Front row players won't have the physical physiques of a back row player but he could be so much better if he took down his fat percentage. It is probably around 17-20% going by the shape of him. I completely agree a season with a club needing a hooker would be ideal, plus I don't imagine a coach like Richards would allow him to maintain his current physique.

I genuinely believe he is the most talented of the young hookers around bar maybe the young Exeter guy who looks an awesome talent, so it disappoints me as it seems his talent may go unfulfilled.

Dickie Cowan? hes the prop theyre moving to hooker isnt he?

We have the same issue with Keiran Brookes...hes been living in Nandos (his favorite eatery) by the look of him...totally out of shape...

beshocked wrote:Londontiger Hartley won't miss any games next season in the AP though. That's my point.

By the way I am not condoning Brit's idiotic punch. It was stupid but the incident happened in a relatively unimportant match (a match that has nothing to do with the AP).

Just annoyed that there is one rule for one player and one for another.

If Hartley's ban can run through warm ups then so should Brit's ban. Alternatively I wouldn't mind if both players miss 3 games at the start of the season.

I totally agree, it is another example of the inconsistencies of the disciplinary process. At the end of the 11/12 season Jim Hamilton and David Paice were sent off for fighting in a Jeff match. Hamilton's ban applied to the Scottish tour that season, but was back for Glaws at the beginning of last year's Jeff. Paice wasn't involved in England so didn't return for Irish until October. That's hardly fair.

Unfair for whom though?

Our punishment system is aimed at punishing the player - Hamilton and Hartley suffered a worse punishment by missing international stuff.

Of course a club affected by a players ban feel hard done by, but it is the player that should be blamed.

In Hartley and Hamilton's case you coudl say let them play for Lions and Scotland and delay the ban - but that is then dampening the impact on them.

On Brits' ban, the judgement which said something like "until someone demonstrates that Saracens' pre-season friendlies should be considered significant, they will not contribute to the ban" read almost as a direct attack on the way Hartley's ban has been structured.

At the moment Jamie George makes Matt Dunning look like an Adonis.

As has been mentioned he needs to lose weight, also as can be expected from someone with so little game time he looked way off the pace when he played this season.

As to the Brits ban I can't see what's wrong, both him and Hartley were banned from their next COMPETITIVE games, seems fair to me although honestly I didn't expect Brita to get a ban for a pretty innocuous incident.

Student-A1 wrote:GeordieFalcon,

sorry if it came across as I was having a go from that comment as not my intention. I do get annoyed by players like Jamie as I know players shape do vary but this this is an example of someone carrying around far too much fat. Front row players won't have the physical physiques of a back row player but he could be so much better if he took down his fat percentage. It is probably around 17-20% going by the shape of him. I completely agree a season with a club needing a hooker would be ideal, plus I don't imagine a coach like Richards would allow him to maintain his current physique.

I genuinely believe he is the most talented of the young hookers around bar maybe the young Exeter guy who looks an awesome talent, so it disappoints me as it seems his talent may go unfulfilled.

beshocked wrote:Consistency would be nice wouldn't it?

Brits does something very stupid in Barbarians game vs the Lions. Misses 3 games of the next AP season.

Hartley does something very stupid in the AP final - Saints vs Leicester. Misses no AP games.

In regards to Jamie George. I am happy he looks likely to get his chance to shine. Long overdue.

Hood83 I wouldn't say Jamie George is overhyped.Before Tom Youngs made his international debut there seemed to be a lack of hooker contenders.

Jamie George as an ex England U20s player is expected to make progress.

I just never saw what the fuss was about. Actually a few cameos towards the end of season looked more promising than anything he'd done at U20 level i think, where he only looked OK to me. He is very overweight, he would do himself a big favour sorting that out first.