Is Oscar Dela Hoya a great?

by kingraf Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Was looking at the Hatton thread, and a lot of the sentiment was that Hatton was a good fighter who lost to the very best. Looking at Dela Hoya, he lost to:
Pacquiao
Mayweather
Hopkins
Mosley x2
Trinidad

Got very lucky vs Whitaker as well. So looking at the Hatton thread, I assume it would be fair to say ODLH, was a good fighter who was a level off the really good to great guys. In many ways ODLH was boxing's Mexican David Beckham. Thoughts?

by Strongback Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:57 pm

kingraf wrote:Ronaldo was a forward/Left wing... The system/and football as a whole changed from Ronaldo's peak to Beckham's peak. I dont think v Nistelrooy does enough to play in the same system without Beckham/with Ronaldo.

Forget the system. What I said is the 10 players I named are as good or better than Beckham.

Ronaldo played right midfield for Utd.

by JabMachineMK2 Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:58 pm

And wasn't as good as Beckham, only when he was played as a winger did he start looking like he is now.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:00 pm

Fat Ronaldo, as you call him, starred in two world cups, went 20+ goals a season in La Liga, and is the all-time leading Goal scorer in World Cups. Gazzas a great, but Ronnies just a fat guy? Alright then.

by J.Benson II Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:07 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
Paul Scholes is one of the greatest midfield players England have ever had. Criminally under rated, there is a reason why England did jack all after he retired.

Yeah, but they also did jack all with him too.

by Diggers Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:10 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:

I read a story about Ronaldo and Scholes after training. Ronaldo was doing loads of flicks and skills, Scholes stopped him and said - "see that tree over there?" (40 yards away) - "Bet you can't hit that tree", he couldn't. Scholes hit it on the first try.

Apparently Ronaldo spent nearly an hour trying after that.

What you didn't mention is that after that hour Ronaldo said "OK, I cant hit the stupid tree but at least I'm not a short arse, ugly, ginger c*&t"

by TopHat24/7 Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:13 pm

Strongback wrote:
kingraf wrote:Lampard? Cole? Even Gerrard? Owen was the 2001 European Player of the Year... Gazza was a nut, who while he had the talent, was certainly not world-class

I don't know how old you are but even Michael Owen had the look of 'what am I getting this for'.

Liverpool won three cups and as the World and European Player of the Year is normally chosen from the winning side they picked a Liverpool player. The best know Liverpool player from a work wide perspective was Owen so he got it.

WPLOTY has always been about marketing. Ask Fat Ronaldo how he won it 3 times.

That speaks volumes (of you) in itself. Rolling Eyes

by Strongback Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:13 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Haha, you're comparing nothing there Strongy - Peter Schmeichel better than Beckham? At goalkeeping, yeah, fair play - outfield? Having a laugh? Van Nistelrooy couldn't ping a ball to feet from 50 yards, so I don't know why you're comparing them. Fact is, Ronaldo as a right midfielder was average, and only became the way he is now when he was played as a winger, and given the option to run at defenders. Ronaldo isn't a passer of the ball or a crosser. He is an all action winger/forward. Comparisons are failed. Ferdinand can't take free kicks. Why is he being compared to Beckham?

Compare like for like, take any right/crossing midfielder from the start of the premiership and compare THEM. Beckham wins every time. One of the finest players of this generation and certainly one of Englands best.

I'm saying Beckham isn't even one of Utd's best players of the last 20 years never mind being world class you dullard. I never compared his playing position. When the great players are compared they don't break it down into who has the best right foot.

The best players of the 2000's were:

Zidane
Fat Ronaldo
Rivaldo
Messi
Ronaldinho
C Ronaldo
Kaka
Maldini
Xavi
Henry

Beckham was nowhere near this class and never was. If a list like this was drawn up in 1990 Gazza would be on it. No English player has come close to his level of skill since. Rooney had serious talent but just fell short of fulfilling it.

Ronaldo scored 40 goals in a season for Utd playing from right midfield.

by Strongback Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:16 pm

kingraf wrote:Fat Ronaldo, as you call him, starred in two world cups, went 20+ goals a season in La Liga, and is the all-time leading Goal scorer in World Cups. Gazzas a great, but Ronnies just a fat guy? Alright then.

His nickname is Fat Ronaldo, I didn't make it up. It's what he's called to differentiate him from Cristiano.

Look at a football board if you want proof.

by TopHat24/7 Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:17 pm

Strongback wrote:
kingraf wrote:Fat Ronaldo, as you call him, starred in two world cups, went 20+ goals a season in La Liga, and is the all-time leading Goal scorer in World Cups. Gazzas a great, but Ronnies just a fat guy? Alright then.

His nickname is Fat Ronaldo, I didn't make it up. It's what he's called to differentiate him from Cristiano.

Look at a football board if you want proof.

The nickname is irrelevant, it's the insinuation that his success was based on marketing rather than ability that Kingraf (and I) take umbrage with.

by milkyboy Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:27 pm

kingraf wrote:One good world cup? So on evidence of Euro 2008, Andriy Arshavin is too a great? no¿

Never said he was a great, you said he wasnt world class. But if world cups are your new criteria, How many good world cups did beckham have?

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:28 pm

Judging by your Assertion Strongback: I would say the ODLH comparison is also relevant, as I would say
Lewis
Calzaghe
Hopkins
RJJ
Pacquiao
Mayweather
Barera
Vit Klitsckho (Wlad wasnt really much when ODLH retired.)
Marquez
Morales
Trinidad
Mosley
were all P4p greater fighters than him.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:29 pm

World cups were your criteria, not mine. I listed a Euro...

by **88Chris05** Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:44 pm

kingraf wrote:Judging by your Assertion Strongback: I would say the ODLH comparison is also relevant, as I would say
Lewis
Calzaghe
Hopkins
RJJ
Pacquiao
Mayweather
Barera
Vit Klitsckho (Wlad wasnt really much when ODLH retired.)
Marquez
Morales
Trinidad
Mosley
were all P4p greater fighters than him.

Oscar belongs head and shoulders (and knees and toes, come to think of it) above the likes of Lennox, Calzaghe and Vitali. Let's not be unreasonable here. He's unequivocally behind Hopkins, Jones, Pacquiao and Mayweather, yes, but washed in the mix along with the Barreras, Mosleys, Moraleses, Trinidads etc, and I think he'd be marginally ahead of some of those names, marginally behind the others.

I have to say, my overall impression is that you sell Oscar well short, kingraf.

by milkyboy Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:44 pm

Oh you got me there. Really. You did. Be easier just to say, ok maybe gazza was considered world class for a while, rather than a pretty poor attempt at smoke and mirrors, if you dont have a decent comeback. It's ok to think beckham was a great but just ridiculing any comments strongy makes to the contrary really isn't strengthening your argument.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:49 pm

No chance is Vitali a lesser P4P than ODLH. Lewis too. Victories over Rahman, Tua, Tyson, and Holyfield, as well as avenging both his defeats, pip ODLH, IMO. You just have a natural bias against HW. Lost twice to Mosley (1-1, at a push)....

Vitali was just superior in every way, and Oscar doesnt even have the "small fighters" calling card of greater speed.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:51 pm

I didnt call Beckham a great either. I couldnt do that, as it would be at odds with my statement that ODLH is boxings Beckham. which I said meant... "I assume it would be fair to say
ODLH, was a good fighter who was a level off the
really good to great guys".

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:55 pm

Strongy called him a great, a statement I disagreed with. YOU claimed one good world cup made him World class. Then YOU told ME to mention one good world cup Beckham played since World Cups are MY criteria. When I highlighted that YOU are the one who mentioned World Cups. You claim I'm using smoke and mirrors
Tumbleweed

I'm mindfu***d

by **88Chris05** Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:00 pm

kingraf wrote:No chance is Vitali a lesser P4P than ODLH. Lewis too. Victories over Rahman, Tua, Tyson, and Holyfield, as well as avenging both his defeats, pip ODLH, IMO. You just have a natural bias against HW. Lost twice to Mosley (1-1, at a push)....

Vitali was just superior in every way, and Oscar doesnt even have the "small fighters" calling card of greater speed.

Victories over Rahman, Tua, a totally shot Tyson and Holyfield? What makes those wins of Lewis' collectively even in the same stratosphere as Oscar's victories over Whitaker, Hernandez, Quartey, Gonzalez, Vargas, Gatti etc?

More to the point, what defeats on De la Hoya's record are as totally ignominious and humiliating as Lewis' losses to the likes of McCall, a gatekeeper, and Rahman, a journeyman? These in Lewis' nigh-on prime years and all wedged between many of his best wins, no less. Those defeats would have been akin to Oscar being flattened anywhere between 1995 and 2002 by the likes of David Kamau or Wilfredo Rivera.

Nothing to do with a "bias" against Heavyweights. De la Hoya simply beat better opponents throughout his career and achieved more, as far as I'm concerned.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:05 pm

Well, with better judges, I could name a fe
w. Fair enough, you could place him over Lewis (even if Lewis' wins were Avenged) But I dont think he gets the nod over Vitali.

by TopHat24/7 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:06 pm

So you'd rank Vitali ahead of Lewis in terms of top HW's?

by Guest Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:07 pm

Beckham hasn't reached the top of the football mountain if trophies are your criteria. For any footballer, surely winning the World Cup has to be the ultimate accolade. Oscar has numerous World titles and beat some very good fighers to do so but is still getting marked down

To suggest Oscar is less of a great than Beckham because of the way he went about taking on some fairly easy World title fights is akin to saying that every team who won the World Cup is sh**e because they didn't beat the Brazilian Team of 1970.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:07 pm

I dont rate ODLH over Vitali. No chance.

by Strongback Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:10 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Strongback wrote:
kingraf wrote:Fat Ronaldo, as you call him, starred in two world cups, went 20+ goals a season in La Liga, and is the all-time leading Goal scorer in World Cups. Gazzas a great, but Ronnies just a fat guy? Alright then.

His nickname is Fat Ronaldo, I didn't make it up. It's what he's called to differentiate him from Cristiano.

Look at a football board if you want proof.

The nickname is irrelevant, it's the insinuation that his success was based on marketing rather than ability that Kingraf (and I) take umbrage with.

You are aware of the commonly known fact that Fat Ronaldo only played 10 league games in the 2001-2002 season yet somehow still managed to become world player of the year?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:10 pm

rapidringsroad wrote: He didn't quite live up to the hype he generated when he won the gold medal at Barcelona, I thought we had another SRL coming up. But he didn't quite deliver.I agree he lost against Sturm and he should never have attempted to move up to fight Hopkins,a step too far, but on the other hand he has made a bit of money out of boxing even if he won't go down as on of the all time greats.

Are you kidding me ???????????..............If he'd stayed at 130 he'd have been champ for 15 years..........Wonderful fighter who's record reads like who's who of Boxing....an inlucky fighter too. I thought he beat Mosley twice and beat Trinidad.......

Took on the best from 130-160 beating more than he lost too.......perfoprming to a high standard and beating twice as many as he lost too......

Whittaker, Chavez, Mayorga, Quartey, Sturm, Vargas...........Twelve years at the top..............

If you want to consider guys Like Mccallum great..this guy is a must.

by JabMachineMK2 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:11 pm

Ok, I can't agree there. Vitali isn't fit to lace up ODLH's gloves. Come on man. This is a 6 weight World Champion who has had some of the biggest fights of the past 20 years you're undermining here.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:12 pm

kingraf wrote:I dont rate ODLH over Vitali. No chance.

That's pretty ignorant..............Kingy..

by TopHat24/7 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:13 pm

DAVE667 wrote:Beckham hasn't reached the top of the football mountain if trophies are your criteria. For any footballer, surely winning the World Cup has to be the ultimate accolade. Oscar has numerous World titles and beat some very good fighers to do so but is still getting marked down

You beat what's there. In football reaching the semis of the world cup is the same as picking up 1 out of 4 world title belts in boxing.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:14 pm

World Championships are the pinnacle of boxing?

So, you place
Povetkin
Froch
Dawson
Bradley
Mathyse
Khan
Garcia
Broner all at the pinnacle? With four major organisations, with seventeen weight divisions. Thats 68 slots open for the "pinnacle". Not counting minor organisations, and 'Super' champions, "Emeritus" champs, "Silver" champs, "International" champs, "Champion of the Decade" etc. Boxing then has more room at the "pinnacle" wouldnt you say? If England had the opportunity to go for a "IBA" level world cup, they would probably need to beat Tahiti and the mighty Bahamas to take it.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:16 pm

I place great victories first and then world titles..............

Unbeaten Pernell Whittaker..........Quartey, Chavez twice, Mayorga, Vargas, Sturm all superb wins..............chuck in Paez and about ten others and hey presto you have a guy who's achievements are superb............

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:18 pm

Im not calling ODLH a bum. Not even close. The thread asks "Is Oscar Dela Hoya a Great", a few of you seem to have read "Is Oscar Dela Hoya a pretty-boy bum"

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:20 pm

Don't get sensitive.................Is Joe Louis great?? Is Jack Dempsey great ??.........Is Roy Jones great?????..........Is Azumah nelson great ????..Is Mike Mcallum great ??

If yes then this guy is a must...end of

by Guest Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:22 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Beckham hasn't reached the top of the football mountain if trophies are your criteria. For any footballer, surely winning the World Cup has to be the ultimate accolade. Oscar has numerous World titles and beat some very good fighers to do so but is still getting marked down

You beat what's there. In football reaching the semis of the world cup is the same as picking up 1 out of 4 world title belts in boxing.

Is it really? What's next, "second is the new first"?

by Strongback Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:22 pm

1990 was almost a quarter of a century ago. Gerard was right when he said on his 100th cap that his generation of England players underperformed.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:24 pm

RJJ is a also a guy whose Legitamacy I question. I dont know how many slots you have for greats Truss, as that probably decides wether you rate Oscar a Great or not.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:28 pm

Dave I cant think you rate winning boxing titles on an even keel with winning a World Cup. By that reasoning, Pacquiao is the "Fighter of The Decade" already.

by TopHat24/7 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:30 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Beckham hasn't reached the top of the football mountain if trophies are your criteria. For any footballer, surely winning the World Cup has to be the ultimate accolade. Oscar has numerous World titles and beat some very good fighers to do so but is still getting marked down

You beat what's there. In football reaching the semis of the world cup is the same as picking up 1 out of 4 world title belts in boxing.

Is it really? What's next, "second is the new first"?

Duke McKenzie is a triple weight world champion - can't think of a football equivalent to that absurdity unless you accept that, with so many world titles and weights, being a world champ simply isn't that great an achievement - especially when you factor in being able to get there without fighting the best in the world, something which cannot happen in football.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:31 pm

kingraf wrote:RJJ is a also a guy whose Legitamacy I question. I dont know how many slots you have for greats Truss, as that probably decides wether you rate Oscar a Great or not.

I question how someone who wins titles from middlweight to Heavy cannot be called great..

It's such an everyday thing..........Chuck in Toney and Hoppo..

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:40 pm

Im not saying he isnt great. What Im saying is there are quite legitimate questions that could be asked about RJJ. Beating Ruiz to take the HW crown... Funny how Haye does that, but he hasnt beaten any real HW. RJJ does it, and we spew it as an achievement of the human spirit.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:41 pm

Louis beat Braddock to win the heavy crown..............

Dempsey beat Willard...................

and they were heavyweights...........

by Guest Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:42 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Beckham hasn't reached the top of the football mountain if trophies are your criteria. For any footballer, surely winning the World Cup has to be the ultimate accolade. Oscar has numerous World titles and beat some very good fighers to do so but is still getting marked down

You beat what's there. In football reaching the semis of the world cup is the same as picking up 1 out of 4 world title belts in boxing.

Is it really? What's next, "second is the new first"?

Duke McKenzie is a triple weight world champion - can't think of a football equivalent to that absurdity unless you accept that, with so many world titles and weights, being a world champ simply isn't that great an achievement - especially when you factor in being able to get there without fighting the best in the world, something which cannot happen in football.

Get yourself a favourable draw and you can cruise the finals without facing Germany, Spain, Brazil etc

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:45 pm

How long were they the king of the HW jungle for? How long was Roy? he didnt even go in as an actual HW

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:48 pm

Dempsey defended his title about five times...........one against a 175 pounder and then little else..........

Louis fought bum of the month...........

DelaHoya fought the best for 12 years..........winning titles from 130-160 and beating great fighters...........

Louis did lose to Charles, Schmelling, Marciano and Walcott over a similar period..

Please don't give me this reigning at one weight crap..............He wanted to test himself instead...........and hallelujah for that.....

he'd probably still be 130 pound champ now..

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:57 pm

Lmao!!! Could barely come in at the right weight vs Pacquiao, but would still king at 130? Truss theres nothing wrong with backng your fave fighters, but almost every fighter has serious question marks about who they could have faced. No harm in that, its the nature of the beast. People moan about Pacquiao's victories over Marquez, but shrug off the wins Ali was handed.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:58 pm

That's because he bulked up over the years.......for decent matches

Sure Duran couldn't get back down to lightweight either post Leonard...

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:00 pm

I didnt say he should. Just made an observation. Unless you also think putting words in people's mouth and them correcting you counts as smoke and mirrors

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:01 pm

You know I can pick at any fighter's recod in history If I wanted.............

Louis lost to the two best fighters he fought and fought bums...........rocked by a 170 pounder and outboxed!!

Dempsey was a ducker..............

Whittaker never fought anybody............

Robbo didn't fancy Turpin 3................

I regard all the above as great fighters and I'd be being hyper-critical If I used the above against them..

Don't be like Rodders Mate...where everything after the 70s is just crap..........

Oscar is an ATg by and standards.

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:04 pm

Look, you see Oscar as a great, I see him as a very good fighter. There probably isnt a huge difference in where we would group him, just a huge one in how many fighters we class as greats.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:06 pm

What constitutes as great.....................

by TopHat24/7 Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:13 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Beckham hasn't reached the top of the football mountain if trophies are your criteria. For any footballer, surely winning the World Cup has to be the ultimate accolade. Oscar has numerous World titles and beat some very good fighers to do so but is still getting marked down

You beat what's there. In football reaching the semis of the world cup is the same as picking up 1 out of 4 world title belts in boxing.

Is it really? What's next, "second is the new first"?

Duke McKenzie is a triple weight world champion - can't think of a football equivalent to that absurdity unless you accept that, with so many world titles and weights, being a world champ simply isn't that great an achievement - especially when you factor in being able to get there without fighting the best in the world, something which cannot happen in football.
Get yourself a favourable draw and you can cruise the finals without facing Germany, Spain, Brazil etc

You will always face another top dog at some point. 2002 World Cup being a prime example. Germany cruised to the final never facing a top/favourite side – until Brazil in the final who trounced them.

Compare that to countless boxing world champs who’ve never fought anyone of note (yes Mr Cleverley, I’m talking to you).

by kingraf Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:14 pm

Its an interesting question, I would say a fighter who puts together an impressive resume. But its an optical thing. I would "beholder", though I do think that if a fighter has been involved in a number of "Superfights" he needs to win a large amount of them. Losing to four-six elite fighters makes it difficult for me to regard you that highly. I would only class the top 20-30 P4P as greats. Same with my view on tennis greats. Team sports have more greats because there are more spots needed to fill a team.

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