--- Rating Wladimir Klitchsko ---

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My ratings

Technical Ability - 9.5, Like him or not, for a heavyweight He is technically one of the most superior boxers ever, Excellent jab and right hands also has a good left hook. standing at over 6 and a half feet the guy can box great, obviously the smaller the heavyweight is the more skill he has to have but Wlad's techinique with his size means that you wont see him beat anytime soon

Defence - 8, alot of WK success is down to his boxing skills but you can't overlook his size when it comes to defense. Like his brother he uses his size to lean back and get out out punching range, he is light on his feet and that accompanied with his size means he can effortlessly move out of range, when an opponent closes him down although he is very negative and boring, he is very effective with clinching.

Offence -7, in this catagory Wlad can be much better than he is, but for one reason or another (could be low confidence in chin or just poor mentality) he is not that good here and was much better in his younger days. Example of his offence not being great would be in the haye fight - sure the Klit fans would cry that haye was too defencive but if Wlad was a great offencive fighter he would get him out of there, if haye did that vs Louis he would be out inside 5.

Footwork - 9, this in my opinion is a area where his ability is overlooked. He has great physical advantages over his opponents yes, but without excellent footwork and a poor chin people would find him and KO him, he is able to close of a ring when needed and is excellent backing away and getting out of range, Always in balance and always composed because of this .

Accuracy - 8, He has good accuracy but not great. He has very accurate jab and right hand but level of competition has to be looked at, he hasn't really faced an opponent who is exactly hard to hit, when he did in haye WK did not have the same succes he usually has.

Power - 9, He has great power - he has very powerful jab, right hand and left hook, tools that could have made him a very exciting fighter, but lack of aggressive mentality has meant it's rare you see Klitcshko take out an opponent before round 10, overmatched opponents are able to go 10 but that doesn't reflect WK's power, as he only throws few right hands per round and a even rare left hook before 10.

Speed - 7, he has excellent speed for a heavyweight of his size, but this ratings are not done to size its done to division, so although for his size its excellent as a heavyweight overall it doesn't compare that well, but its still very good. He can throw quick jabs and right hands, also good quick left hooks - all with power. But he isn't the fastest and not close.

Versatility - 6, He is able to both Box and if he wanted he would be able to brawl like his early days, but that's not how he fights now, meaning he only boxes and can only box - doesn' have confidence in his chin to trade punches.

Stamina - 7, He is able to go full 12 no problem, but he has no one to push him, he doesn't have a really high work rate so you can't know what's his limit, he in his prime takes very few punches and hasn't been in a fight where he needed to find his second wind - doesn't show how good is stamina is, but rather the lack of solid competition there is, meaning no one to push him out of his comfort zone and over his limit. He did gas against purity

Heart - 7.5, He showed tremendous heart to come back from 3 KO losses and was floored 3 times against peter in the first fight, a fight many said it was not if but a when WK is going to get KO'd. But at his peak he is head and shoulders above his competetion, only his brother stand with him. Yet the man refuses to open up and be aggressive and give the boxing fans excitement, being the Heavyweight Champion of the world, he has the power to make boxing mainstream again, but to do that you need explosive KO's - something WK refuses - not can't- to deliver. E.g. against haye he didn't really let his hands go, sure haye was defensive and fought poorly, but if you're a great with KO power, you should be able to take a guy like Haye out, that fight showed two guys who didn't want to risk going for it, for the fear of getting KO'd.

Chin - 4.5, his chin is bad, just bad, terrible. I don't criticize people's all that often because the often get hit with excellent punches leading people to believe and say that that KO victim has a glass chin, ignoring the Great punch and not giving credit to the fighter delivering the punch. But I can't defend WK, the man has no chin, he gets hit and he panics, he has KO'd 3 times and not by fighter with solid punching power (apart from Saunders). David Haye, a cruiserweight puncher, stunned him with a normal overhand right in the 12th, Wach seemed to stun him also, his excellent defence and poor competition often hides his chin.

Physical Attributes - 10, Do I really need to explain. Many times after the fight I read comments saying Klitchsko was too big, I don't agree with this - he beats his opponents because he is too Skilled, Of course his size has a lot to do with it but it's not the main aspect. WK is excellent and controlling range and fighting to his strengths, his footwork and defensive technique of pulling back means the opponents more often than not fall short of there target. This isn't a rating of size, it's a rating of how the individual uses it, for example Paul Williams would not get that high of a rating although physically he was a freak of nature, he didn't use it - unlike Wladimir

Overall - 8

Some attributes are missing though such as Cut/Swelling resistance and ring IQ etc...

For me he is a top 15 Heavyweight and a Solid HOF fighter.

when i get the time I'll have a proper read... if i agree, I'll try my best to disagree for debates sake.

Which 14 fighters do you rte above Wlad if you have him at 15 ATG or if you have him at 10 which 9 fighters are above him and why.

In my opinion Wlad is a top 10 ATG because he has dominated the HW division for a decade, one of the highest KO percentages of a HW.

60 wins, 51 by KO.

Klitschko is the longest reigning IBF, WBO & IBO Heavyweight Champion in history with the most title defenses for those organizations.

Overall, he is the 4th longest reigning Heavyweight Champion of all time with the 3rd most consecutive title defenses at 15.

Whatever you say about his era being poor the fact he has dominated so easily and been so dangerous means he has to be a top 10.

KO-KING wrote:

PPVxHOTTY wrote:Frazer v Wlad.... surprised nobody has mentioned 1 crucial point, this fight depends on the choice of referee. It's interesting and I think a key difference, Wlad can't fight inside to save his life but his clinch is massively effective, All Wlad does on the inside is clinch and lean. Watch the Williamson fight the ref stops him from holding and he tries to fight back on the inside with hilarious results. In Ali-Frazier II the ref allowed Ali to grab the back of Joe's neck all night and he was able to neutralise Frazier. In FOTC and Manilla the ref didn't, we saw a very different fight. Holding/clinching isn't illegal as far as I know but doing it excessively and constantly is.

wlad would get KO'd as long as the ref can count to 10

Your rating of 9.5 for technical ability, rating of defence and power suggests otherwise.

I voted yes. Wladimir has earned a top 15 slot and deserves to be recognised in this sort of esteem. I would say that you ratings for Technical abillity, power and footwork are slightly high though.

I think the footwork is in relation to being such a big guy, much easier if your 150 pounds and 5,6. Power I don't think can be questioned, every guy who has faced or sparred with him I've read rate him as one of if not the hardest puncher they've faced.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:Which 14 fighters do you rte above Wlad if you have him at 15 ATG or if you have him at 10 which 9 fighters are above him and why.

In my opinion Wlad is a top 10 ATG because he has dominated the HW division for a decade, one of the highest KO percentages of a HW.

60 wins, 51 by KO.

Klitschko is the longest reigning IBF, WBO & IBO Heavyweight Champion in history with the most title defenses for those organizations.

Overall, he is the 4th longest reigning Heavyweight Champion of all time with the 3rd most consecutive title defenses at 15.

Whatever you say about his era being poor the fact he has dominated so easily and been so dangerous means he has to be a top 10.

What absolute twaddle.

He's only the longest reigning champion with those tin pot organisations because he's the only heavyweight that's ever taken them seriously (they weren't even around during most of the heavyweight legends' times). Dominating the division is up for grabs also -- some rank his brother over him.

Saw the Brewster fight the other day...He looked pathetic.....against a slob..

Can't have him in a top 15...

Just as bad against Sanders. Even Peter had him scurrying about on the floor. Great champions don't go out like that.

monty junior wrote:I think the footwork is in relation to being such a big guy, much easier if your 150 pounds and 5,6. Power I don't think can be questioned, every guy who has faced or sparred with him I've read rate him as one of if not the hardest puncher they've faced.

The footwork should be calculated in terms of the division he fights in, Valuev's footwork is probably about an 8 for someone who is over 25 stone, but if we take it relative to his opposition then it's obviously much lower. Therefore a 9 for Waldimir's footwork is too high for me. I don't think the power rating is ridiculous at all, I just would have it slightly lower, maybe by .5 or 1 point.

One performance doesn't equal a career, you should know that Truss. Can't rank Curry on his fight with Honeyghan and take it all away from what he achieved.

Wlad is 12/13. Not top 10 because he's operated in a weak era and been beaten, but has evolved and dominated.

Make that two then...Sanders and Brewster......

Honeyghan wasn't a slob.

Neither was Sanders.

Wlad avenged Brewster

It was the performance rather than the defeat.

Ah but we can't hold 2 bad performances against someone in a 60+ fight career surely? Especially seeing as he's not even a shadow of the boxer he was back then.

We can If the scared Haye apart...they are the two best fighters he's faced...

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Ah but we can't hold 2 bad performances against someone in a 60+ fight career surely? Especially seeing as he's not even a shadow of the boxer he was back then.

You are right. In a 60+ fight career you can't hold 2 fights against someone.

If we didn't hold losses against people...There would be 100 no1 p4pers..

Do you hold Ali's loss to Holmes against him Truss?

Unless alot of Wlads statistics are put in context, then its not a hugely accurate measurement.

The IBO is virtually irrelevant. Fringe belt. Shouldnt even factor in the debate.

The WBO/IBF are modern belts that came about in the 80s and 90s so records established with these belts dont translate into other era's and nowadays really none of the belts deserve respect.

Wlad has numerous defences of world titles which is worthy of respect in its own right but it comes with the caveat that not a single one has ever been as an undisputed champion due to his brother co-existing in the same division and unfortunately being his greatest threat. Hes been long reigning but reasonably its only from about 2007 he could claim to be number 1 and since the Haye fight that he would have put any real significant space between himslf and Vitali.

At the same time, I dont think the situation with Vitali being his brother, or the complex political structure of boxing mulit belt system now can be held against him. Hes has generally done very well with the hand he was dealt and developed, in my view, into a very good heavyweight that deserves respect. Outside of his brother, he has been willing to face any of the threats the division has offered and has unified the titles where he could.

I dont think a convincing argument can be formed for him to rank up there with the top guys in the divisions history on a broad based criteria but in the context of top 15, then I dont think he can be easily dismissed when considered alongside the Pattersons, Baers, Walcotts, Charles, Schmelings, Corbetts, Fitzsimmons and these kind of fighters who generally feature from 15-20 if one as inclined to be as consistent and as objective as possible.

11.Gene Tunney
12.Lennox Lewis
13.Mike Tyson
14.Evander Holyfield
15.Sam Langford

Those are the guys the IBRO have between 11 and 15. What thinks everyone re Wlad ousting any of those guys?

Lennox is criminally low.

Discredits the ranking system for me. Not interested in arguing for Wlad when Lennox is in there instead of top 5.

Looking through their rankings, they have RJJ criminally low in Middlleweight.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Lennox is criminally low.

Discredits the ranking system for me. Not interested in arguing for Wlad when Lennox is in there instead of top 5.

Nerp -- he's about right. Hugely overrated all time is Lennox.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Looking through their rankings, they have RJJ criminally low in Middlleweight.

Jones didn't do a lot at 160. Probably why.

manos de piedra wrote:At the same time, I dont think the situation with Vitali being his brother, or the complex political structure of boxing mulit belt system now can be held against him. Hes has generally done very well with the hand he was dealt and developed, in my view, into a very good heavyweight that deserves respect. Outside of his brother, he has been willing to face any of the threats the division has offered and has unified the titles where he could.

Not trying to pick holes, as I hopelessly outgunned by you when it comes to boxing knowlege but 1) He didn't face Valuev [yes King influenced this, but I never noticed much appetite regardless]; and 2) Why didn't he unify properly in the years he brother was first retired? That would have largely rid the issue/controversy of sharing the title between the brothers.

hazharrison wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Looking through their rankings, they have RJJ criminally low in Middlleweight.

Jones didn't do a lot at 160. Probably why.

Bhop, Toney, McCallum - yeah, not much.

He was pretty much the dominant man at the weight for a number of years.

You're also talking out of your arse re: Lewis, but I'm not biting.

I don't really tend to think of Langford as a Heavyweight per se, just as I don't think of Toney as a Heavyweight either. In any case, I think Sam's best wins came below Heavy, so he's out of the equation.

Tunney hovered between Light-Heavyweight and Heavyweight in an era where many of the leading Heavyweights didn't scale more than about fourteen stone in any case, but again I think his series with Greb, draw with Loughran and wins against the likes of Levinsky are the meat 'n' bones of his work. He may well have beaten Dempsey even if Jack was at his peak, but as it stands I don't think two wins over a slightly waning Dempsey and one title defence before retirement is enough to justify a spot in front of Wladimir anymore.

Top of my head, I'd probably have something like 1) Ali 2) Louis 3) Johnson 4) Holmes 5) Jeffries 6) Foreman 7) Lewis 8) Tyson 9) Marciano 10) Frazier 11) Dempsey 12) Liston 13) Holyfield 14) Wladimir 15) Tunney

To be fair to them the middleweight list was last done in 2005, Jones win over Hopkins was gained a lot more lustre in the last few years on the back of Bernard sticking around so bleeding long with such success. Still don't think it would bump him too greatly, hard for a guy who made such a fleeting visit to a division no matter how impressive to gatecrash the top ten particularly in one of the 8 classic weights.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:At the same time, I dont think the situation with Vitali being his brother, or the complex political structure of boxing mulit belt system now can be held against him. Hes has generally done very well with the hand he was dealt and developed, in my view, into a very good heavyweight that deserves respect. Outside of his brother, he has been willing to face any of the threats the division has offered and has unified the titles where he could.

Not trying to pick holes, as I hopelessly outgunned by you when it comes to boxing knowlege but 1) He didn't face Valuev [yes King influenced this, but I never noticed much appetite regardless]; and 2) Why didn't he unify properly in the years he brother was first retired? That would have largely rid the issue/controversy of sharing the title between the brothers.

With regards Valuev, I dont think King was interested. He had him facing stiffs for the most part. When he lost to Chagaev then there was a big wrangle over who was/wasnt the proper WBA champion.

I think in the period where Vitali retired saw the re-modelling of Wlad as he rebuilt after his defeats to win back a title. I think he did unify in that stage, or close enough to it against Ibragimov. The general politics of boxings mulitbelt system nowadays makes unifications far from straightforward to agree and then you have various mandatory obligations in between.

As Windy used to reasonably argue Chris with the likes of Fitz and Sam there is a decent argument for leaving them out of divisional rankings and reserving them solely for P4P because there body of work in one division rarely justifies the ranking they are often apportioned. They tend to receive such ranking because it is remarkable they were able to operate in the weight in the first place.

Certainly think this is the case with Sam at heavy. As most know I am a huge fan of the man but when one looks at his record you would have to concede the best two heavies he fought were Johnson and Wills. You can almost give him a pass for Johnson as it was one of his first fights at heavy and he was still pretty green. However even if we exclude the later fights with Wills when Sam was clearly regressing pretty quickly even in the fights around Sam’s prime he still struggled with Harry and was dropping his share. (no shame in that Wills was some fighter).

That leaves us with his series with Jeanette and McVea. Sam certainly did enough to prove he had Sam’s number but Joe had more than his share of success in his fights with Sam. Whilst it is remarkable that a guy of 5ft 6 who at the time could have probably made middle had he wished could even consider competing on something like level pegging with such fighters it is reasonable to ask if such a record is really enough to put him above Wlad if we put aside the issue of the huge size advantage he usually conceded.

Aye, I'm not too fussed about Roy being given a low place at 160 because, a solid but unspectacular points win over Hopkins aside, he had none of his career-best wins there.

Personally, I think if he hadn't outgrown the division and had been able to campaign there a little longer, you're maybe looking at the most formidable Middleweight boxer of all time; all the freakish gifts Jones had even at 175 lb (so fantastic reflexes, genuine and chilling one-punch knockout power, blurred hands, tremendous engine and stamina etc) he'd have had at Middleweight, but they'd be inflated even further, as incredible as that sounds. He'd be even more dazzling in terms of speed, even more dangerous when landing on Middleweight jaws as opposed to Light-Heavyweight ones and, if indeed his chin was as average as many think, then chances are he'd be less vulnerable in that department against the smaller fellas, too.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:At the same time, I dont think the situation with Vitali being his brother, or the complex political structure of boxing mulit belt system now can be held against him. Hes has generally done very well with the hand he was dealt and developed, in my view, into a very good heavyweight that deserves respect. Outside of his brother, he has been willing to face any of the threats the division has offered and has unified the titles where he could.

Not trying to pick holes, as I hopelessly outgunned by you when it comes to boxing knowlege but 1) He didn't face Valuev [yes King influenced this, but I never noticed much appetite regardless]; and 2) Why didn't he unify properly in the years he brother was first retired? That would have largely rid the issue/controversy of sharing the title between the brothers.

People like to change their opinions on belts when it suits them. Sometimes they say the belts are worthless as there are so many of them and then when talking about Wlad they try to discredit him for not winning ALL of the belts.

Wlad has faced the best in the division and beaten them all apart from 1 fighter, his brother.

Mayweather will go down as a top 5 atg and def a top 10 but he never faced the biggest threat Pacquio and he never won ALL of the belts to completely unify the division.

Unification only becomes important though when divisional #1 status is disputed. At SFW Floyd was undisputed, as he is currently at WW. Due to Manny I don't think he ever really nailed LWW and his LW reign was maybe a little short-lived to tick that one off. And he won't be LMW for obvious reasons.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It was the performance rather than the defeat.

He absolutely battered Brewster for four rounds knocked him down then just collapsed in a heap without much punishment. It was more the bizarre finish I remember as the performance the first four rounds had been pretty much perfect, bear in mind Brewster had an iron chin and a lot of power.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Looking through their rankings, they have RJJ criminally low in Middlleweight.

Jones didn't do a lot at 160. Probably why.

Bhop, Toney, McCallum - yeah, not much.

He was pretty much the dominant man at the weight for a number of years.

You're also talking out of your arse re: Lewis, but I'm not biting.

Toney and McCallum weren't at middleweight - Jones never dominated middleweight.

Lewis is very overrated and I say that as a fan. He was horribly inconsistent and only managed to put it all together in terms of reaching greatness towards the very tail end of his career.

Nothing to do with the thread but where's Ghosty?

hazharrison wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Looking through their rankings, they have RJJ criminally low in Middlleweight.

Jones didn't do a lot at 160. Probably why.

Bhop, Toney, McCallum - yeah, not much.

He was pretty much the dominant man at the weight for a number of years.

You're also talking out of your arse re: Lewis, but I'm not biting.

Lewis is very overrated and I say that as a fan. He was horribly inconsistent and only managed to put it all together in terms of reaching greatness towards the very tail end of his career.

No offence but your boxing views are very simplistic. You say Lewis is overrated so please explain why.

I have to be simplistic with you or you'll ask me to explain what I just explained over and over.

Lewis didn't face his greatest rival in Riddick Bowe. He was knocked out with a single punch by a journeyman -- not once but twice. Great heavyweights don't go out like that. He unravelled as a fighter after "winning" the WBC title the first time around - struggling with a faded Tony Tucker and the limited Frank Bruno.

After hooking up with Steward, Lewis started to slowly improve but was pushed to the limit by Ray Mercer - the same version of Mercer that the erratic Holyfield and an ancient Tim Witherspoon put in similar shifts against.

He finally clicked into gear against Golota (subsequently thrashed by the remnants of Mike Tyson) before being pushed to the limit by Briggs and Mavrovic. Even at this point he remained a work in progress dubbed "the heavyweight king of hesitancy" by the American press.

After outboxing Holyfield in another infuriating display - he almost came unstuck in the rematch when Evander pushed him mighty close (Holyfield was a bit past his best at that point).

After winning the title Lewis seemed to have finally reached his potential and scored good wins over Grant, Botha and Tua before being pancaked again. At that point, greatness seemed to have eluded him.

Amazingly he rebounded to defeat Rahman, Tyson (a shell) and Klitschko but he almost missed greatness - made it by a smidge.

For the majority of his career he was a jigsaw with a missing piece and so belongs somewhere around 10-12 for me right alongside the likes of Tyson and Liston.

hazharrison wrote:I have to be simplistic with you or you'll ask me to explain what I just explained over and over.

Lewis didn't face his greatest rival in Riddick Bowe. He was knocked out with a single punch by a journeyman -- not once but twice. Great heavyweights don't go out like that. He unravelled as a fighter after "winning" the WBC title the first time around - struggling with a faded Tony Tucker and the limited Frank Bruno.

After hooking up with Steward, Lewis started to slowly improve but was pushed to the limit by Ray Mercer - the same version of Mercer that the erratic Holyfield and an ancient Tim Witherspoon put in similar shifts against.

He finally clicked into gear against Golota (subsequently thrashed by the remnants of Mike Tyson) before being pushed to the limit by Briggs and Mavrovic. Even at this point he remained a work in progress dubbed "the heavyweight king of hesitancy" by the American press.

After outboxing Holyfield in another infuriating display - he almost came unstuck in the rematch when Evander pushed him mighty close (Holyfield was a bit past his best at that point).

After winning the title Lewis seemed to have finally reached his potential and scored good wins over Grant, Botha and Tua before being pancaked again. At that point, greatness seemed to have eluded him.

Amazingly he rebounded to defeat Rahman, Tyson (a shell) and Klitschko but he almost missed greatness - made it by a smidge.

For the majority of his career he was a jigsaw with a missing piece and so belongs somewhere around 10-12 for me right alongside the likes of Tyson and Liston.

none of the above shows he was overrated.

also he beat bowe in the olympic finals and hen bowe ducked lewis and gave up his belt instead of fighting him.

Also the Golata win was a great win for Lewis. Golata was 'undefeated' apart from being Dq'd twice for low blows against Bowe in 2 matches Golata was winning easilly.

Also Golata never lost to Tyson it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs and Tyson never faced Golata until about 4 years after lewis faced him.

Lennox lewis' 5 best wins in my eyes and the reason he is a true boxing great

1.Holyfield (considered the best HW in the world at the time)
2.Vitali (coming off a year's layoff, won even though he was behind on the cards)
3.Ruddock (opened the door to the big HW fights for Lewis)
4.Mercer (tough, close fight)
5.Golota (destroyed a guy who beat Bowe to a pulp twice inside a round)

Zeljko Mavrovic
Bruno
Briggs
Tucker
Weatherspoon

make up the top 10.

Whatever you say about Lewis, the fact he beat every fighter he faced and the quality of opponents he faced means he is a true great.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:I have to be simplistic with you or you'll ask me to explain what I just explained over and over.

Lewis didn't face his greatest rival in Riddick Bowe. He was knocked out with a single punch by a journeyman -- not once but twice. Great heavyweights don't go out like that. He unravelled as a fighter after "winning" the WBC title the first time around - struggling with a faded Tony Tucker and the limited Frank Bruno.

After hooking up with Steward, Lewis started to slowly improve but was pushed to the limit by Ray Mercer - the same version of Mercer that the erratic Holyfield and an ancient Tim Witherspoon put in similar shifts against.

He finally clicked into gear against Golota (subsequently thrashed by the remnants of Mike Tyson) before being pushed to the limit by Briggs and Mavrovic. Even at this point he remained a work in progress dubbed "the heavyweight king of hesitancy" by the American press.

After outboxing Holyfield in another infuriating display - he almost came unstuck in the rematch when Evander pushed him mighty close (Holyfield was a bit past his best at that point).

After winning the title Lewis seemed to have finally reached his potential and scored good wins over Grant, Botha and Tua before being pancaked again. At that point, greatness seemed to have eluded him.

Amazingly he rebounded to defeat Rahman, Tyson (a shell) and Klitschko but he almost missed greatness - made it by a smidge.

For the majority of his career he was a jigsaw with a missing piece and so belongs somewhere around 10-12 for me right alongside the likes of Tyson and Liston.

none of the above shows he was overrated.

also he beat bowe in the olympic finals and hen bowe ducked lewis and gave up his belt instead of fighting him.

Also the Golata win was a great win for Lewis. Golata was 'undefeated' apart from being Dq'd twice for low blows against Bowe in 2 matches Golata was winning easilly.

Also Golata never lost to Tyson it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs and Tyson never faced Golata until about 4 years after lewis faced him.

Dear me. I give up. Golota fled the ring because Tyson was hurting him. Bowe signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got knocked out by a journeyman heavyweight with one punch.

Golota wasn't winning the Bowe rematch easily either - he almost quit before getting himself thrown out.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:Lennox lewis' 5 best wins in my eyes and the reason he is a true boxing great

1.Holyfield (considered the best HW in the world at the time)
2.Vitali (coming off a year's layoff, won even though he was behind on the cards)
3.Ruddock (opened the door to the big HW fights for Lewis)
4.Mercer (tough, close fight)
5.Golota (destroyed a guy who beat Bowe to a pulp twice inside a round)

Zeljko Mavrovic
Bruno
Briggs
Tucker
Weatherspoon

make up the top 10.

Whatever you say about Lewis, the fact he beat every fighter he faced and the quality of opponents he faced means he is a true great.

Lewis's best victory and best performance was the revenge win over Rahman. The Mercer win was hotly disputed and seen as a disappointing performance at the time.

hazharrison wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:I have to be simplistic with you or you'll ask me to explain what I just explained over and over.

Lewis didn't face his greatest rival in Riddick Bowe. He was knocked out with a single punch by a journeyman -- not once but twice. Great heavyweights don't go out like that. He unravelled as a fighter after "winning" the WBC title the first time around - struggling with a faded Tony Tucker and the limited Frank Bruno.

After hooking up with Steward, Lewis started to slowly improve but was pushed to the limit by Ray Mercer - the same version of Mercer that the erratic Holyfield and an ancient Tim Witherspoon put in similar shifts against.

He finally clicked into gear against Golota (subsequently thrashed by the remnants of Mike Tyson) before being pushed to the limit by Briggs and Mavrovic. Even at this point he remained a work in progress dubbed "the heavyweight king of hesitancy" by the American press.

After outboxing Holyfield in another infuriating display - he almost came unstuck in the rematch when Evander pushed him mighty close (Holyfield was a bit past his best at that point).

After winning the title Lewis seemed to have finally reached his potential and scored good wins over Grant, Botha and Tua before being pancaked again. At that point, greatness seemed to have eluded him.

Amazingly he rebounded to defeat Rahman, Tyson (a shell) and Klitschko but he almost missed greatness - made it by a smidge.

For the majority of his career he was a jigsaw with a missing piece and so belongs somewhere around 10-12 for me right alongside the likes of Tyson and Liston.

none of the above shows he was overrated.

also he beat bowe in the olympic finals and hen bowe ducked lewis and gave up his belt instead of fighting him.

Also the Golata win was a great win for Lewis. Golata was 'undefeated' apart from being Dq'd twice for low blows against Bowe in 2 matches Golata was winning easilly.

Also Golata never lost to Tyson it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs and Tyson never faced Golata until about 4 years after lewis faced him.

Dear me. I give up. Golota fled the ring because Tyson was hurting him. Bowe signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got knocked out by a journeyman heavyweight with one punch.

Golota wasn't winning the Bowe rematch easily either - he almost quit before getting himself thrown out.

Don't know what fight you was watching but in the first fight Golota knocked Bowe down twice and was winning on the judges scorecards before being DQ. In the second fight Golota was once again winning on all judges scorecards before being DQ'd. You say he almost quit in the rematch but he won all the rounds from 5-8 on all 3 judges scorecards and in round 9 was DQ'd. He was destroying Bowe.

The records say Golota never lost to Tyson, it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs. Also that fight was nearly 4 years after Lewis easily beat Golota so youc an hardly use that fight to knock Lewis' win.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:I have to be simplistic with you or you'll ask me to explain what I just explained over and over.

Lewis didn't face his greatest rival in Riddick Bowe. He was knocked out with a single punch by a journeyman -- not once but twice. Great heavyweights don't go out like that. He unravelled as a fighter after "winning" the WBC title the first time around - struggling with a faded Tony Tucker and the limited Frank Bruno.

After hooking up with Steward, Lewis started to slowly improve but was pushed to the limit by Ray Mercer - the same version of Mercer that the erratic Holyfield and an ancient Tim Witherspoon put in similar shifts against.

He finally clicked into gear against Golota (subsequently thrashed by the remnants of Mike Tyson) before being pushed to the limit by Briggs and Mavrovic. Even at this point he remained a work in progress dubbed "the heavyweight king of hesitancy" by the American press.

After outboxing Holyfield in another infuriating display - he almost came unstuck in the rematch when Evander pushed him mighty close (Holyfield was a bit past his best at that point).

After winning the title Lewis seemed to have finally reached his potential and scored good wins over Grant, Botha and Tua before being pancaked again. At that point, greatness seemed to have eluded him.

Amazingly he rebounded to defeat Rahman, Tyson (a shell) and Klitschko but he almost missed greatness - made it by a smidge.

For the majority of his career he was a jigsaw with a missing piece and so belongs somewhere around 10-12 for me right alongside the likes of Tyson and Liston.

none of the above shows he was overrated.

also he beat bowe in the olympic finals and hen bowe ducked lewis and gave up his belt instead of fighting him.

Also the Golata win was a great win for Lewis. Golata was 'undefeated' apart from being Dq'd twice for low blows against Bowe in 2 matches Golata was winning easilly.

Also Golata never lost to Tyson it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs and Tyson never faced Golata until about 4 years after lewis faced him.

Dear me. I give up. Golota fled the ring because Tyson was hurting him. Bowe signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got knocked out by a journeyman heavyweight with one punch.

Golota wasn't winning the Bowe rematch easily either - he almost quit before getting himself thrown out.

Don't know what fight you was watching but in the first fight Golota knocked Bowe down twice and was winning on the judges scorecards before being DQ. In the second fight Golota was once again winning on all judges scorecards before being DQ'd. You say he almost quit in the rematch but he won all the rounds from 5-8 on all 3 judges scorecards and in round 9 was DQ'd. He was destroying Bowe.

The records say Golota never lost to Tyson, it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs. Also that fight was nearly 4 years after Lewis easily beat Golota so youc an hardly use that fight to knock Lewis' win.

Maybe go and watch the fights rather than checking box rec?

PPVxHOTTY wrote:

KO-KING wrote:

PPVxHOTTY wrote:Frazer v Wlad.... surprised nobody has mentioned 1 crucial point, this fight depends on the choice of referee. It's interesting and I think a key difference, Wlad can't fight inside to save his life but his clinch is massively effective, All Wlad does on the inside is clinch and lean. Watch the Williamson fight the ref stops him from holding and he tries to fight back on the inside with hilarious results. In Ali-Frazier II the ref allowed Ali to grab the back of Joe's neck all night and he was able to neutralise Frazier. In FOTC and Manilla the ref didn't, we saw a very different fight. Holding/clinching isn't illegal as far as I know but doing it excessively and constantly is.

wlad would get KO'd as long as the ref can count to 10

Your rating of 9.5 for technical ability, rating of defence and power suggests otherwise.

his chin would disagree, not to mention, Fraizer is better

hazharrison wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:I have to be simplistic with you or you'll ask me to explain what I just explained over and over.

Lewis didn't face his greatest rival in Riddick Bowe. He was knocked out with a single punch by a journeyman -- not once but twice. Great heavyweights don't go out like that. He unravelled as a fighter after "winning" the WBC title the first time around - struggling with a faded Tony Tucker and the limited Frank Bruno.

After hooking up with Steward, Lewis started to slowly improve but was pushed to the limit by Ray Mercer - the same version of Mercer that the erratic Holyfield and an ancient Tim Witherspoon put in similar shifts against.

He finally clicked into gear against Golota (subsequently thrashed by the remnants of Mike Tyson) before being pushed to the limit by Briggs and Mavrovic. Even at this point he remained a work in progress dubbed "the heavyweight king of hesitancy" by the American press.

After outboxing Holyfield in another infuriating display - he almost came unstuck in the rematch when Evander pushed him mighty close (Holyfield was a bit past his best at that point).

After winning the title Lewis seemed to have finally reached his potential and scored good wins over Grant, Botha and Tua before being pancaked again. At that point, greatness seemed to have eluded him.

Amazingly he rebounded to defeat Rahman, Tyson (a shell) and Klitschko but he almost missed greatness - made it by a smidge.

For the majority of his career he was a jigsaw with a missing piece and so belongs somewhere around 10-12 for me right alongside the likes of Tyson and Liston.

none of the above shows he was overrated.

also he beat bowe in the olympic finals and hen bowe ducked lewis and gave up his belt instead of fighting him.

Also the Golata win was a great win for Lewis. Golata was 'undefeated' apart from being Dq'd twice for low blows against Bowe in 2 matches Golata was winning easilly.

Also Golata never lost to Tyson it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs and Tyson never faced Golata until about 4 years after lewis faced him.

Dear me. I give up. Golota fled the ring because Tyson was hurting him. Bowe signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got knocked out by a journeyman heavyweight with one punch.

Golota wasn't winning the Bowe rematch easily either - he almost quit before getting himself thrown out.

Don't know what fight you was watching but in the first fight Golota knocked Bowe down twice and was winning on the judges scorecards before being DQ. In the second fight Golota was once again winning on all judges scorecards before being DQ'd. You say he almost quit in the rematch but he won all the rounds from 5-8 on all 3 judges scorecards and in round 9 was DQ'd. He was destroying Bowe.

The records say Golota never lost to Tyson, it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs. Also that fight was nearly 4 years after Lewis easily beat Golota so youc an hardly use that fight to knock Lewis' win.

Maybe go and watch the fights rather than checking box rec?

I have seen the fight, unlike you who thought Bowe was winning. But anyway you tired to belittle Lewis' win over Golota by saying Tyson beat him as well but Tyson beat him nearly 4 years later so it's irrelevant really.

hazharrison wrote:
Dear me. I give up. Golota fled the ring because Tyson was hurting him. Bowe signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got knocked out by a journeyman heavyweight with one punch.

Golota wasn't winning the Bowe rematch easily either - he almost quit before getting himself thrown out.

bowe threw his belt in the bin, golota was up by few rounds on each fight.

Thats true but Golota was half dead for the lewis fight so he is a good name but doesnt add much more than that.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hazharrison wrote:I have to be simplistic with you or you'll ask me to explain what I just explained over and over.

Lewis didn't face his greatest rival in Riddick Bowe. He was knocked out with a single punch by a journeyman -- not once but twice. Great heavyweights don't go out like that. He unravelled as a fighter after "winning" the WBC title the first time around - struggling with a faded Tony Tucker and the limited Frank Bruno.

After hooking up with Steward, Lewis started to slowly improve but was pushed to the limit by Ray Mercer - the same version of Mercer that the erratic Holyfield and an ancient Tim Witherspoon put in similar shifts against.

He finally clicked into gear against Golota (subsequently thrashed by the remnants of Mike Tyson) before being pushed to the limit by Briggs and Mavrovic. Even at this point he remained a work in progress dubbed "the heavyweight king of hesitancy" by the American press.

After outboxing Holyfield in another infuriating display - he almost came unstuck in the rematch when Evander pushed him mighty close (Holyfield was a bit past his best at that point).

After winning the title Lewis seemed to have finally reached his potential and scored good wins over Grant, Botha and Tua before being pancaked again. At that point, greatness seemed to have eluded him.

Amazingly he rebounded to defeat Rahman, Tyson (a shell) and Klitschko but he almost missed greatness - made it by a smidge.

For the majority of his career he was a jigsaw with a missing piece and so belongs somewhere around 10-12 for me right alongside the likes of Tyson and Liston.

none of the above shows he was overrated.

also he beat bowe in the olympic finals and hen bowe ducked lewis and gave up his belt instead of fighting him.

Also the Golata win was a great win for Lewis. Golata was 'undefeated' apart from being Dq'd twice for low blows against Bowe in 2 matches Golata was winning easilly.

Also Golata never lost to Tyson it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs and Tyson never faced Golata until about 4 years after lewis faced him.

Dear me. I give up. Golota fled the ring because Tyson was hurting him. Bowe signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got knocked out by a journeyman heavyweight with one punch.

Golota wasn't winning the Bowe rematch easily either - he almost quit before getting himself thrown out.

Don't know what fight you was watching but in the first fight Golota knocked Bowe down twice and was winning on the judges scorecards before being DQ. In the second fight Golota was once again winning on all judges scorecards before being DQ'd. You say he almost quit in the rematch but he won all the rounds from 5-8 on all 3 judges scorecards and in round 9 was DQ'd. He was destroying Bowe.

The records say Golota never lost to Tyson, it was a NC due to Tyson testing positive for drugs. Also that fight was nearly 4 years after Lewis easily beat Golota so youc an hardly use that fight to knock Lewis' win.

Maybe go and watch the fights rather than checking box rec?

I have seen the fight, unlike you who thought Bowe was winning. But anyway you tired to belittle Lewis' win over Golota by saying Tyson beat him as well but Tyson beat him nearly 4 years later so it's irrelevant really.

Never said Bowe was winning.

KO-KING wrote:

hazharrison wrote:
Dear me. I give up. Golota fled the ring because Tyson was hurting him. Bowe signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got knocked out by a journeyman heavyweight with one punch.

Golota wasn't winning the Bowe rematch easily either - he almost quit before getting himself thrown out.

bowe threw his belt in the bin, golota was up by few rounds on each fight.

And?