ATP Rome Masters: The Final

noleisthebest wrote:

Jubbahey wrote:NitB, stop rubbing it in, enough salt already.

I hope this was a joke. .
If this was a genuine warning, say so and it will be an ASTALAVISTA baby.
I'm a free spirit and don't like my good-natured joy having cold water poured on.

1st off, yes it was a joke, too many peeps read things between the lines on here.

Why would it be a warning Nole?, you haven't broken any rules and there have been no complaints. We are not that power mad to police the boards with such a heavy hand. I dont understand the knee jerk reaction to an innocent comment, I am a mod, so if it was genuine, you would know about it.

socal1976 wrote:Soniboom, weren't you the same guy that said Novak would not beat Rafa on clay this year? Weren't you the same guy that claimed that novak beat Rafa at madrid because of the altitude? I know maybe the only wins on clay that count for Novak is if he plays Rafa inside a submarine at 1000 meters below sea level. I am not saying Novak will beat Rafa at RG, Rafa deserves to be the favorite, but on current form it would not surprise me the least if Novak won. By the way would it have made much of difference last night if novak had to play another set? Or in madrid? Novak played three hours the night before and never looked in danger of losing a set last night.

And the difference between Novak and murray is pretty obvious even for a murray fan to see.

Firstly my name is Sonic Boom.

I dunno what game you where watching, but Djokovic was close to melt down yesterday. It wasn't a straightforward 6-4 6-4 beating. Nadal had chances, but couldn't convert.

sonic_boom10 wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Soniboom, weren't you the same guy that said Novak would not beat Rafa on clay this year? Weren't you the same guy that claimed that novak beat Rafa at madrid because of the altitude? I know maybe the only wins on clay that count for Novak is if he plays Rafa inside a submarine at 1000 meters below sea level. I am not saying Novak will beat Rafa at RG, Rafa deserves to be the favorite, but on current form it would not surprise me the least if Novak won. By the way would it have made much of difference last night if novak had to play another set? Or in madrid? Novak played three hours the night before and never looked in danger of losing a set last night.

And the difference between Novak and murray is pretty obvious even for a murray fan to see.

Firstly my name is Sonic Boom.

I dunno what game you where watching, but Djokovic was close to melt down yesterday. It wasn't a straightforward 6-4 6-4 beating. Nadal had chances, but couldn't convert.

But why couldn't he convert? Because of the guy on the other side.

I AM AWESOME wrote:

sonic_boom10 wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Soniboom, weren't you the same guy that said Novak would not beat Rafa on clay this year? Weren't you the same guy that claimed that novak beat Rafa at madrid because of the altitude? I know maybe the only wins on clay that count for Novak is if he plays Rafa inside a submarine at 1000 meters below sea level. I am not saying Novak will beat Rafa at RG, Rafa deserves to be the favorite, but on current form it would not surprise me the least if Novak won. By the way would it have made much of difference last night if novak had to play another set? Or in madrid? Novak played three hours the night before and never looked in danger of losing a set last night.

And the difference between Novak and murray is pretty obvious even for a murray fan to see.

Firstly my name is Sonic Boom.

I dunno what game you where watching, but Djokovic was close to melt down yesterday. It wasn't a straightforward 6-4 6-4 beating. Nadal had chances, but couldn't convert.

But why couldn't he convert? Because of the guy on the other side.

Or Nadal not playing to the level he's capable off

sonic_boom10 wrote:

I AM AWESOME wrote:

sonic_boom10 wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Soniboom, weren't you the same guy that said Novak would not beat Rafa on clay this year? Weren't you the same guy that claimed that novak beat Rafa at madrid because of the altitude? I know maybe the only wins on clay that count for Novak is if he plays Rafa inside a submarine at 1000 meters below sea level. I am not saying Novak will beat Rafa at RG, Rafa deserves to be the favorite, but on current form it would not surprise me the least if Novak won. By the way would it have made much of difference last night if novak had to play another set? Or in madrid? Novak played three hours the night before and never looked in danger of losing a set last night.

And the difference between Novak and murray is pretty obvious even for a murray fan to see.

Firstly my name is Sonic Boom.

I dunno what game you where watching, but Djokovic was close to melt down yesterday. It wasn't a straightforward 6-4 6-4 beating. Nadal had chances, but couldn't convert.

But why couldn't he convert? Because of the guy on the other side.

Or Nadal not playing to the level he's capable off

Well aside from the fact that this is debatable, Rafa would have beaten anyone else yesterday, whose name wasn't Novak Djokovic. The problem for Rafa is that he cannot impose his game on Nole like he has been able to for other players. Novak does not have the same psychological baggage that Federer has. Thus, he respects Rafa's game, but still believes he can beat him

Yeah, yeah Sonic boom we heard all your excuses and justifications after Madrid. It was the altitude that let Novak win? Then Novak wins in Rome and you have a whole other set of excuses. So what if Nadal didn't execute that his problem. You were the guy who stated before the clay season, that Djokovic couldn't beat Nadal on clay. Now you are saying he can't beat him over 5 sets, maybe he can, maybe he can't but I certainly don't give your predictions or match analysis much credence.

As kemet and Iamawesome have pointed out Nadal can't execute against Djokovic because Djokovic doesn't let him get into his comfort zone and he doesn't fear Nadal. Kemet there is a couple of big differences between Novak and Roger. One Novak is younger and faster at this stage of his career. And #2 his double handed backhand loves the ball up high where as Rog's backhand tends to breakdown.

I think Nadal executes pretty well against Djoko but the problem is that Nadal's bread and butter shots (high loopy topspin) don't actually hurt Novak but he is also conscious that those bread and butter shots which involve lots of running and hard hitting are bound to tire him quicker than Djoko.

So Nadal for the first time in his career is faced with having to produce riskier shots than his opponent to shake djoko off. Clearly an uncomfortable and new position for the spaniard.

This is exactly why I think Djoko, under his current form, has even more chance to beat Rafa over 5 than over 3 sets.

To use Agassi's expression, there is nowhere to hide for Rafa when facing Djoko.

Rafa does seem to run a lot more against Novak then he does against other opponents because Djokovic can attack his highballs to the backhand. Therefore it becomes very difficult as Tenez says to beat him. In the past Nadal used to be able to rely on going through the Novak serve, Novak's serve would break down and Rafa could continually break him. Now that Novak's serve is more solid and less likely to break down Nadal has a problem.

Davydenko is another one that can handle those loopy shots pretty well and does make Nadal run no end. I actually think that Nadal's spirit is broken after a few games against the russian cause he realises that his bread and butter shots don;t hurt Davydenko and worse they are used to send Nadal in all corners, completely breaking the spaniard's spirit.

The russian is also 4/0 up in his last 4 encounters!

Delpo would certainly have beaten with more ease than the others I feel had he kept injury free.

I can understand from a Nadal fan point of view it's not all about Nole's form. There seems to be missing something in Nadal's game. It's not like 2009 when he mentally broke down due to the divorce of his parents, but it's his energy level. It's nowhere near as it was at the USO 2010. You can tell by looking at his cross court FH, he just can't put the necessary weight on it. Even single handed BH players managed the last couple of weeks to return more of those than they usually do.

In addition to what Tenez says: It must been frustrating for Nadal to see that the shot he could hit perfectly within himself and which always had a big impact, is not good enough against (at least) Djoko.

However; putting things in perspective: it's only Djoko who beats him. RG will tell us more. I'm curious what happens if Nadal meets Murray or Sod at RG. Anything can happen this year

You can tell by looking at his cross court FH, he just can't put the necessary weight on it. Even single handed BH players managed the last couple of weeks to return more of those than they usually do.
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That's intersting. I must say I did not notice that bar of course the serve's speed which dropped off but I thought that was due essentially to the fact that on clay, safer serves were more important than faster ones.

The USO was pretty strange cause frankly he did not play anyone who could hurt him untill he played a tired Djoko and even a tired Djoko got some results.

My take was that in the USO with flying balls Nadal's FH is actually tougher to handle, plus he certainly takes the ball a bit earlier there giving him a better length.

You may remember that I said last year that Nadal's best surface then could actually be HC cause it gave his shots more bite and, now that his knees were better, more grip for his footwork (both key strengthes of rafa).

The FO will tell us whether it's a surface issue or an energy level issue as you say cause he will probably be at his best shape to defend the FO.

Very good observation again GP!

I don't get Sonic Booms points here, firstly Nole came through the late and awesome semi-final, so was playing the final less than 24 hours later with a big handicap (the type of handicap that makes Nadal fans discount Federers 2009 Madrid win).

Secondly, Murray has shown he has the game to boss Nadal as well. Going into that final set at Monte Carlo he was clearly in control and the injury (genuine, since he pulled out of the next event) clearly had a decisive effect.

Nadal will be praying not to have a Murray/Djokovic semi/final line up at RG. They both have his game worked out (though execution still has to be achieved, which I'm not saying is easy).

thnx, although it remains to be seen if my observation is right but to me it appears he needs to work harder to put the ball away. He normally has this problem on low bouncing courts (O2 or Rotterdam) but definitly not on clay.
The strange thing is that in Nadal's case attacking seems to be more physically demanding than defending (mentally it is anyway). If his energy level is top notch, he'll usually plays more aggressive.

If his energy level is top notch, he'll usually plays more aggressive.
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True! and we know that energy level fluctuates quite a bit from one tournament to the next. Or should I say from Slams to ordinary tournaments.

Bogbrush, sonic boom is a nadal fan and his posts about djokovic are not objective. There are Nadal fans that are very fair and objective in regards to Djokovic's rise recently, sonic boom is not one of them. I started a thread at the start of the clay court about how Djokovic could beat Nadal and in that thread Sonic boom claimed Djoko had no chance. In fact, I predicted that he could win in Rome or Madrid. Then after the Madrid victory sonic claimed that Madrid's altitude allowed Djoko to win. Now after Rome he is struggling to find further post hoc justifications for how somehow the last two matches didn't count. Now the argument is that Novak can't beat Nadal in five sets at RG, which he may or may not, but Sonic boom is not a very objective critic of Djokovic or Nadal.

Tenez, Nadal has added a flat forehand and I think he needs to use that shot more against Djokovic. He needs to go flat and up the line, the best way to attack Novak's forehand is with either flat pace or with low slice. Novak off of both sides is a better high ball hitter than he is a low ball hitter. That has often been what has given Novak problems against fed in the past. Change of pace, low sliced shots, drawing Novak into net with angled shots and angled slice. Novak likes the heavy top-spin and the high balls off of both wings.

work the angles more, change the pace, that's what Murray was doing. Sometimes slicing when out of position, playing the short angled cross court shots, that sort of thing. My one gripe with Nadal is that he seems unwilling to mix his game up. Djokovic thrives on rhythm, in the first set Murray tried to match him in long rallies and it didn't work, after that he mixed things up a bit more and Djokovic struggled a bit.

Yep that is certainly a more effective strategy than feeding him a steady diet of high balls and heavy spin. Short slice to both wings and when you go to the forehand go flat, deep, and hard. On grass and hardcourt I think this strategy can be much more effective actually than on clay. Slice doesn't play very well on clay it doesn't zip through the court it just sits there and waits to be hit but on grass and hardcourt it gets through the court a bit faster.

I noticed that when Murray sliced low to Djokovic's forehand, forcing him to hit up on the ball, he struggled (seem to remember him netting a few). On grass this could be a very effective strategy I think as the ball will keep lower. Also Murray used the short cross court forehand to good effect at times, putting Djokovic out of position. Could Nadal find something similar off his forehand wing?

Socal1976

Other players have had success vs Nadal with a flat two handed backhand, notably Davydenko, Delp Potro and Soderling.

Nadal has made the adjustment vs these guys, so in all likeliness he will do the same vs Djokovic.

Nadal lose, both Madrid and Rome(to the marginally better player - happy now? , as everyone knows Nadal's level this year has been below what he is capable on clay. If he rises his level marginally, say 5%, then he could've won Madrid and Rome.

Tennis is a game of small margins, at the moment its all Djokovic, all it takes a bit of magic(say a running forehand) and Nadal could be back to his old self.

Yes exactly, mad for Chelsea that is because Novak hits with a very extreme western grip on the forehand and the low ball is much harder for the extreme western gip than the highball. Djokovic likes the ball up in the zone on both wings. Both the western forehand and the two handed backhand are better at handling the high ball then the low ball.

Tenez, Nadal has added a flat forehand and I think he needs to use that shot more against Djokovic.
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I think you are mixing up things. Nadal has always been able to flatten his FH if needed. He hasn't "added a flat FH recently"! Look at his match v Hewitt in AO 2004 and you will see his FH being powerful and flatter.....however those shots carry a risk and the fact is he lost his match versus Hewitt that year despite a great display of "flatter" FHs. Anybody can hit a flat FH, not anybody can do it consistently enough to pull more winners than UEs.

A flat FH is actually easier to handle for guys like Djoko and Federer than his loopy one, plus they get those very handy UEs, especially during big points.

Nadal has no interest in changing his winning game. I am afraid his only way forward is topspinning even harder and running down ball faster to push more UEs from his opponents. He hasn't got the basic talent to play an agressive tennis, otherwise he woudl have done so 10 years ago, and for that he would most probably have been better off using his natural right hand.

Toni was very smart and made a champion of his nephew with a very clear plan. I am pretty convinced that Toni coudl have done so with other kids....more or less. But his tactics have now been found out by a generation of players that have learnt to handled moonballs.

I am convinced Toni was inspired by Wilander who won his first FO by moonballing at nausea at 17. Of course Today's equivalent had to be done with more energy also helped by today's technology and diet but the principle is the same, just a modern version.

Tenez wrote:Tenez, Nadal has added a flat forehand and I think he needs to use that shot more against Djokovic.
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IA flat FH is actually easier to handle for guys like Djoko and Federer than his loopy one, plus they get those very handy UEs, especially during big points.

Actually here is were I disagree with you, of course I disagree with your silly argument that Nadal is not that talent and that he wins on moonballing but I have argued with you ad nauseum about it before. I disagree with this specific point. Djokovic has a huge western grip forehand something like a hybrid of Nadal's and fed's forehand. But Djokovic's big western grip actually likes the highball. Its the lower ball that gives the western grip trouble. That is why I have always felt that if you do want to go to Novak's forehand you should go early, flat, and deep or use slice. He has a big stroke that he needs time for so he likes the heavy and high topsin ball more than the early, flat, and deep shot or the low slice that he has to get under.

You might disagree but the stats are very clear! your are denying the obvious.

Nadal matches against the top 4, even top 8, are won when his opponents UEs get considerably bigger than Nadal's winners. You fail to realise that his opponents UE is often by far the biggest source of Rafa's points!

Nadal has talent but that is certainly not what made him number one. There are plenty of players who are more talented and if you deny the share his physique plays in his wins, you are completely wrong I am afraid.

Finally what was yoru pseudo in 606?

I had two pseudos, I started as socalfootiefan, and then later as FA. I had two or three lengthy threads with you one about 600 posts where I disputed your big balls and slow courts theory. Another where I wrote a lengthy article on the great ballstriking of Nadal, and you tried to convince me that uncle toni could have turned any good athlete with mediocre tennis skill into Rafa nadal.

Of course I thoroughly whipped you in both threads, but I respected your tireless energy and certainty of your own deluded theories on tennis. Namely, that somehow Rafa Nadal the #1 tennis player in the world is not good at hitting a tennis ball, really, really good at it. Although as you see, I am not even a Nadal fan but I find your obsession with proving Nadal's inferiority in terms of talent amusing.

Of course I thoroughly whipped you in both threads,
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Of course. Just that I remember you being ridiculed by other posters as well of which some post here now!

I believe this prompted your early departure of 606.

Never mind. You have a clean sheet here and can try to rebuild your reputation. However if you want to do so, you must admit that conds have certainly slowed down and that the use of slow balls are indeed the best way to achieve slow conds.

Regarding Nadal, you say it yourself, so what do I need to add really?
I quote "Yep that is certainly a more effective strategy than feeding him a steady diet of high balls and heavy spin. " Considering that Nadal played 4 times Djoko and 4 times played the same way and lost, please explain what kind of variety Nadal has?

Tenez, actually a majority of posters on both threads agreed with me, but like I said I love your sense of certainty, although usually misplaced. And I left 606 for the same reason as most everyone else, a couple of months afterwards when they declared the site to be shutdown, I started looking around. I didn't leave in tears because of the mean comments of other posters, boo hoo.

Nadal has a good flat forehand that he has worked on, he has improved his volleying and when plays at wimbledon he does tend to be more aggressive and stand much closer to the line. He has added some miles on his serve and gets much more free points, has a good slice backhand especially for a two hander and a good drop shot. But I will concede this much that in his last two match ups against Novak we didn't see too much variety from him. I think he does need to add some aggression on his second serve return, instead of backing up on the second serve to run around and take a big forehand cut he should step in and look to get on top of the point more often. He should use both strategies not always playing one way or the other. Nadal in my mind is a very good all around player but he has been so used to having success with one formula on clay that it his hard for him to break out of that mold in 7 or 8 day period between the two master's finals.

I'm not sure that the Rome Masters net was up to scratch at all; I think I saw a leaf fall on it, reducing the height by another half millimetre or so.

The standard recently has been appauling. The ATP is not listening to the concerned public about this, and the lack of leadership from the players council is there for all to see. They don't care; they just want the nets lowered.

Are we still hoping for a laugh for this one Stealth?

I wouldn't wait up. 8)