Liverpool Thread: Road to thinking we might get top 4, only to feel stupid at the end of the season

by **Crimey** Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:52 pm

First topic message reminder :

Transfer ins:
Kolo Toure (free transfer from Manchester City)

Transfers out:
Danny Wilson (free to Hearts)
Jamie Carragher (free to Sky)
Peter Gulacsi (free to Salzburg)

by lfc91 Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:28 pm

DAVE667 wrote:What about a sizable chunk going towards redeveloping Anfield?

I could live with that, anything that gets the redevelopment started!!

by **Kenny** Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:10 pm

any transfer fee if it should happen has to go majorly into team strengthening but yeh getting the ground development started gets my vote .

on the subject of the sunday games i don't think it's right we play the day after Chelsea Arsenal and Man City on i think it's 2 or 3 weekends ........ but then it's probably down to sky as i heard all our games will be shown from now until the end of the season

by Fernando Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:38 pm

Liverpool announce 49.8m loss - Does this not push your guys literally borderline of FFP? So your hard work could all be for nothing.

by socal1976 Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:18 am

NOt a LFC fan but if the gunners don't win it I hope you guys win it. And it is looking more likely we are out of it. In between Chelsea owned by a Russian rackateer and managed by the pompous one, and Man City owned by an oil sheik filled with mercenaries I hope LFC get the title if we don't. Plus you guys are playing some exceptional stuff right now.

by Stella Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:18 am

socal1976 wrote:NOt a LFC fan but if the gunners don't win it I hope you guys win it. And it is looking more likely we are out of it. In between Chelsea owned by a Russian rackateer and managed by the pompous one, and Man City owned by an oil sheik filled with mercenaries I hope LFC get the title if we don't. Plus you guys are playing some exceptional stuff right now.

You're on the same number of points?

by Fernando Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:29 am

Stella wrote:
socal1976 wrote:NOt a LFC fan but if the gunners don't win it I hope you guys win it. And it is looking more likely we are out of it. In between Chelsea owned by a Russian rackateer and managed by the pompous one, and Man City owned by an oil sheik filled with mercenaries I hope LFC get the title if we don't. Plus you guys are playing some exceptional stuff right now.

You're on the same number of points?

Try telling the media that. Apparently we're falling apart despite being 4 pts off the top and joining Chelsea & United in losing at Stoke with Citeh getting a draw.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:02 pm

Might be cos arguably Arsenal have given only 2 or 3 convincing performances of title challengers since the year began (Spurs, Fulham, Sunderland as beating Coventry doesnt count)

by Stella Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:04 pm

Not just the media, Fernando. Some FB friends are saying that the cup is their only hope. This could be due to the fact that Arsenal normally waiver come February/March.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:48 pm

Fixture list comes into account as well.

Le arse have some proper tough games on the horizon, Liverpool have a relatively easy run in

by socal1976 Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:10 pm

Stella, I think it is more about Arsenal's form and Liverpool's form. Liverpool are trending up where Arsenal are trending down. I fee that the losses of Walcott and in particular Ramsey has really hurt the team. It would be nice if we had one year where we didn't lose multiple star players for huge chunks of the season. Liverpool also has the easier fixtures and no Europe or FA cup to worry about. I can't see the gunners doing it at this point. And Liverpool is the lesser evil between Jose and Team Abu Dhabi.

by Stella Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:30 pm

socal

I get your points, but I don't get this 'Arsenal are out of it' mentality that some Arsenal fans have gained. If they can scrape some points together, then their run in is easy...........on paper.

by lfc91 Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:51 pm

socal1976 wrote:Stella, I think it is more about Arsenal's form and Liverpool's form. Liverpool are trending up where Arsenal are trending down. I fee that the losses of Walcott and in particular Ramsey has really hurt the team. It would be nice if we had one year where we didn't lose multiple star players for huge chunks of the season. Liverpool also has the easier fixtures and no Europe or FA cup to worry about. I can't see the gunners doing it at this point. And Liverpool is the lesser evil between Jose and Team Abu Dhabi.

Injuries happen in football. Liverpool were missing arguably their entire starting back for at the same time for a number of weeks, lucas been out for months, sturridge had over a month out and we started the season with our best player banned for a number of games!(ok thats not an injury but still a big absense to deal with). Thats why the teams with the best squads (such as city and chelsea) will be favourites to win the league.

by socal1976 Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:47 pm

Stella wrote:socal

I get your points, but I don't get this 'Arsenal are out of it' mentality that some Arsenal fans have gained. If they can scrape some points together, then their run in is easy...........on paper.

I never really thought they would win it this year. I think they could have but frankly I still feel we are 1 or 2 pieces away. That being said they are still in contention. If Arsenal play well in March and knock Chelsea and City back a peg then they have a shot. But I really think missing our best player this season Ramsey and maybe our second best attacker in Theo is a big loss. As LFC points out injuries happen, but some injuries are harder to replace than others. If we get a top striker next year look out with the midfield we have and the rest of the components. Not saying we can't win it, just saying the odds have become much longer and looking at current form things don't look good. I will say this that we played well against sunderland, Liverpool in the FA cup, and against Munich till the redcard and penalty happened. But really against Stoke we reverted to some old bad habits. No it is not impossible but becoming more improbable. I would be ecstatic if we win the FA cup and finish top 4 again. To me that would still be a successful season.

by Guest Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:16 am

finish top 4 again. To me that would still be a successful season

..and therein lies the problem. That's been Arsenal's (or just Arsene's) mentality for so many years it's unreal.

by Duty281 Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:09 pm

Haha, winning the FA Cup and finishing fourth would be failure for Arsenal.

It would be stagnation; settling for the mediocre rather than aiming to reach a more luxurious plane. It's Wenger's whole philosophy.

And that, sadly, is why Arsenal haven't moved forward in recent time.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:12 pm

Get the monkey off their back, get a trophy in. It would be acceptable, little else

by **Kenny** Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:18 pm

personally i would put trophies over CL qualification but i am in the minority i know .

just out of interest how do everyone see the final top 4 places going ?

by socal1976 Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:59 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
finish top 4 again. To me that would still be a successful season
..and therein lies the problem. That's been Arsenal's (or just Arsene's) mentality for so many years it's unreal.

Did you miss the part where I said win the FA cup? I don't see how winning the FA cup and qualifying for Europe is a failure. Hasn't everyone been saying that winning trophies is what it is about? I consider the FA cup to be a prestigious and major trophy. And yes qualifying for CL is a huge deal. I like seeing my team play and compete against the Juventus, Milans, Bayern, Barca, and REal Madrid's of the world. It means a lot of money to the club and when you take a major scalp the fans remember it and enjoy it. I never said just top 4 qualification is enough. I said top 4, and the FA cup. The FA cup is a big deal still and a major trophy. So under your analysis every big team that doesn't win the CL and their domestic league is a failure, I just don't see it that way.

But this is a lfc thread, so my apologies for taking it over with Arsenal talk. I want anyone but city or Chelsea, and I like the football LFC has played this year and the fact they aren't owned by a rackateer or a dictator. Other than that I won't be stating much else on this thread and will move my comments to the premier league thread.

by lfc91 Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:35 am

http://www.insidefutbol.com/2014/03/06/liverpool-to-opt-against-making-aly-cissokho-move-permanent/130719/

Great news!

by Guest Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:38 am

socal1976 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
finish top 4 again. To me that would still be a successful season
..and therein lies the problem. That's been Arsenal's (or just Arsene's) mentality for so many years it's unreal.

Did you miss the part where I said win the FA cup? I don't see how winning the FA cup and qualifying for Europe is a failure. Hasn't everyone been saying that winning trophies is what it is about? I consider the FA cup to be a prestigious and major trophy. And yes qualifying for CL is a huge deal. I like seeing my team play and compete against the Juventus, Milans, Bayern, Barca, and REal Madrid's of the world. It means a lot of money to the club and when you take a major scalp the fans remember it and enjoy it. I never said just top 4 qualification is enough. I said top 4, and the FA cup. The FA cup is a big deal still and a major trophy. So under your analysis every big team that doesn't win the CL and their domestic league is a failure, I just don't see it that way.

But this is a lfc thread, so my apologies for taking it over with Arsenal talk. I want anyone but city or Chelsea, and I like the football LFC has played this year and the fact they aren't owned by a rackateer or a dictator. Other than that I won't be stating much else on this thread and will move my comments to the premier league thread.

Didn't miss it at all, I just dismissed it out of hand it as Arsenal are clearly averse to winning anything. Arsene/Derren Brown is content to warp the minds of Arsenal fans and have them believe that true success lies not in silverware or titles but in a healthy bank balance and sexy looking spreadsheet. No need to over-exert oneself actually winning anything when a top four finish and qualification from the CL group stages is enough to keep Kronke and his cronies in silky socks for another season. Nice work if you can get it, fella.

by Fernando Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:42 am

Brendan Rodgers...

"When I eventually retire from football I want to be able to look back and see that not only have I won trophies but I've developed a football club that has brought through their own players and individuals and made them better.

"Other managers may be different and might just be about purely winning trophies, but for me success isn't picking up the trophy at the end of the season.

"It's also about the football club, giving the value to young players and seeing them develop

Seems he has that mindset as well Dave.

by Guest Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:07 am

Ah, but you can clearly see from this part "that not only have I won trophies", he DOES want to win trophies and titles.

Wenger seems reluctant to voice any major ambition lest he fail to hit his target and be deemed a failure. No, better to aim for something safe yet achievable than "try and fail gloriously" It's all well and good having a little spat with Mourinho but Jose does genuinely want to win stuff and doesn't care HOW he gets it. Wenger wants to believe in the beauty of football but really don't all fans want a trip to Wembley or the chance to sing "We are the Champions"?

I think the loss to Birmingham in the Cup final really kicked the stuffing out of Wenger. It's like he's terrified that if Arsenal win something they'll have to go to the tiresome bother of doing it all again.

For a team with such resources at their disposal, their fans do genuinely seem angry at the club's lack of drive. The media joke that if you tell Arsenal that they have a shot at the title they'll wither and die but tell them there's a chance for a fourth place finish, they'll knock down walls to get there.

by Fernando Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:12 am

DAVE667 wrote:Ah, but you can clearly see from this part "that not only have I won trophies", he DOES want to win trophies and titles.

Does it not worry you that if he doesn't he's happy developing a football club that has brought through their own players and individuals and made them better.

That is essentially Arsenal the past few years

by Guest Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:27 am

No, doesn't worry me in the slightest. Whilst Liverpool's chances of winning a trophy might be slightly higher than most, there's bigger stronger teams above us and still an element of luck involved (as we saw in the Cup against Arsenal) but as long as the desire to challenge for trophies and titles is there and a willingness to improve, I'll be happy. Sadly, I'm aware that we will probably never be able to compete financially with the big boys and that will hamper our goals to some degree so whilst there will be an element of frustration it will be tempered with an understanding of why.

What confuses/angers a number of Arsenal fans is that a club co-owned by three billionaires, seems unwilling to spend money to secure titles. Wenger may be happy to take the moral high ground on that topic but the average Arsenal fan would chew of their left nipple for a spending spree that resulted in Silverware.

by socal1976 Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:42 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
finish top 4 again. To me that would still be a successful season
..and therein lies the problem. That's been Arsenal's (or just Arsene's) mentality for so many years it's unreal.

Did you miss the part where I said win the FA cup? I don't see how winning the FA cup and qualifying for Europe is a failure. Hasn't everyone been saying that winning trophies is what it is about? I consider the FA cup to be a prestigious and major trophy. And yes qualifying for CL is a huge deal. I like seeing my team play and compete against the Juventus, Milans, Bayern, Barca, and REal Madrid's of the world. It means a lot of money to the club and when you take a major scalp the fans remember it and enjoy it. I never said just top 4 qualification is enough. I said top 4, and the FA cup. The FA cup is a big deal still and a major trophy. So under your analysis every big team that doesn't win the CL and their domestic league is a failure, I just don't see it that way.

But this is a lfc thread, so my apologies for taking it over with Arsenal talk. I want anyone but city or Chelsea, and I like the football LFC has played this year and the fact they aren't owned by a rackateer or a dictator. Other than that I won't be stating much else on this thread and will move my comments to the premier league thread.
Didn't miss it at all, I just dismissed it out of hand it as Arsenal are clearly averse to winning anything. Arsene/Derren Brown is content to warp the minds of Arsenal fans and have them believe that true success lies not in silverware or titles but in a healthy bank balance and sexy looking spreadsheet. No need to over-exert oneself actually winning anything when a top four finish and qualification from the CL group stages is enough to keep Kronke and his cronies in silky socks for another season. Nice work if you can get it, fella.

Ok so you basically took my quote, removed a material portion of it and then quoted me changing the exact meaning of what I said to fit the conclusion you wanted to draw. You are free to have any opinion you like about Arsenal/WEnger that you like. But I think it would be more fair that if you quote me you don't chose to disregard something that I post that completely alters the meaning of the quote. If you believe Arsenal don't want to win trophies that is all fine and good, just don't misquote me to support your conclusion.

by **Kenny** Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:30 pm

lets get back on track and the LFC

by Blade Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:15 pm

Hi am a Sheffield United fan and was wondering if any of you guys knows what's happening with Conor Cody?

I know he has a year left to run on his contract but what is happening after that he has said in our news paper that he wants to stay perminanlty, Would Rodgers want to let him go?

His performances as of late have been quite good after a rocky start but once he settled he has got himself going for me I would love him to stay.

I have heard he is supposed to be the next SG and that Rodgers may put him in for next season but if Cody's head is not in the right place would Rodgers let him go and would you guys want him to go?

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:21 pm

I don't think Cody would be pushing for a 1st team place on his return. I think if Liverpool get Top 4, some continental quality would be brought for the Champions League etc.

The kid has got talent and with a bit of nurturing, he could become a good Premier league player in the future.

by compelling and rich Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:30 pm

i think its safe to change the title of this thread now

by Guest Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:58 pm

compelling and rich wrote:i think its safe to change the title of this thread now

Not until top four is a mathematical certainty dear chap

by electronaut Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:38 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:i think its safe to change the title of this thread now
Not until top four is a mathematical certainty dear chap

As it stands the maximum number points available to everyone (ignoring the computations of teams playing each other so these are not all possible)

Team	Currently Played	Current Points	Maximum Points
Chelsea	30	66	90
Liverpool	29	62	89
Arsenal	29	62	89
Man City	27	60	93
Tottenham	30	53	77
Everton	28	51	81
Man Utd	29	48	75

The theoretical minimal target for Liverpool to guarantee top 4 is 82 pts, so that is another 20 pts from their remaining 11 games - how many points to you think they are going to need to cement top 4 and how many to win the title - given that these calcs don't include accounting for Man City going to Anfield etc - how many would be needed to win the title?

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:59 pm

That 20 points is the MAXIMUM amount of point Liverpool would need. And Everton would need to win every remaining game. As I can see points being dropped everywhere. I would evisage that another 14 would see use got top 4.

by Stella Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:05 pm

Can Utd get 70 points?

Liverpool will storm to fourth and beyond.

by electronaut Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:10 pm

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:That 20 points is the MAXIMUM amount of point Liverpool would need. And Everton would need to win every remaining game. As I can see points being dropped everywhere. I would evisage that another 14 would see use got top 4.

Nope that 20 pts is the minimum Liverpool need to guarantee 4th assuming Everton do win all their games which is why I asked what people think the real target would be - you think another 14 which I think is pretty realistic tbh.

by mystiroakey Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:19 pm

Team ave p game Projection
Chelsea 2.20 83.60
Liverpool 2.14 81.24
Arsenal 2.14 81.24
Man City 2.22 84.44
Tottenham 1.77 67.13
Everton 1.82 69.21
Man Utd 1.66 62.90

as long as the teams remain at the same form that is a projection of scores.

I can honestly see 4th place only needing 74 pts - therefore liverpool and arsernal would be safe with another 12- because i cannot see the other teams gaining so much extra form needed to get there average pts per game up

by compelling and rich Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:25 pm

i cant see everton, spurs or united being able to put a run of results together that will really pressure any of the current top 4. all three currently not playing very well

by Guest Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:51 pm

Like I said, I thought Utd would put up just enough resistance to scupper any chances Liverpool might have had of top four out of nothing more than spite but even then, they couldn't muster anything. For me, the danger to Liverpool is going to come from the teams battling relegation or in-house complacency and I really can't see the latter (mind you in 08/09 didn't we end up losing 2-0 to Middlesborough who got relegated so lord only knows)

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:56 pm

electronaut wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:That 20 points is the MAXIMUM amount of point Liverpool would need. And Everton would need to win every remaining game. As I can see points being dropped everywhere. I would evisage that another 14 would see use got top 4.
Nope that 20 pts is the minimum Liverpool need to guarantee 4th assuming Everton do win all their games which is why I asked what people think the real target would be - you think another 14 which I think is pretty realistic tbh.

Sorry I should have worded it better. We would need AT MOST 20 points. Although I think we wont require that many points to obtain top 4.

by electronaut Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:06 pm

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Sorry I should have worded it better. We would need AT MOST 20 points. Although I think we wont require that many points to obtain top 4.

I re-read it and I can see what you mean - it works both ways as my wording was ambiguous too Hug

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:44 pm

Haha no probs thumbsup

by LivinginItaly Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:26 am

When is the liverpool v cardiff game? I thought it had been moved to sunday lunchtime for tv, but I have just checked the bbc website and it is listed as a 3pm game on sat. I need to know so I can plan my wife's shopping around the football. Cheers guys.

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:55 am

A good old saturday at 3 o'clock mate thumbsup

by TheCultOfPersonality Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:22 pm

I think since returning from his injury, Glen Johnson has been great, especially today. He's been making excellent runs down the flank linking up well with Henderson and has been keeping everything simple with passes and clearances.

Another hatrick for Suarez, although was a little disappointed he didn't pass it on to Sterling at the end but I don't blame him one bit. Can't believe the season he's having and breaking more and more records.

Overall an excellent and entertaining game as per usual, 3 more vital points. Up next Sunderland.

by mystiroakey Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:24 pm

suraez is worth 110m in my eyes. sturridge 35m.

i hope you somehow win this league

by Guest Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:25 pm

I've always liked you Mysti Hug

by mystiroakey Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:26 pm

I liked arsernal start of the season because of the amazing footie they played- now you have taken my heart. Unbelievable stuff.

by Hulking_up Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:10 am

TheCultOfPersonality wrote:
Another hatrick for Suarez, although was a little disappointed he didn't pass it on to Sterling at the end but I don't blame him one bit.

I was expecting him to pass but you can't deny a man his hat trick.

by LivinginItaly Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:40 am

Got the win, which is all that matters at this stage of the season, but we were terrible at the back again. If we play like that against man city they will annihilate us.

by LivinginItaly Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:56 am

Very important win last night, but maybe the first real signs of tension and nerves for both the players and the crowd. Do you think we will be able to hold our nerve in the run in? I'm not worried about the big games as the occasion will overcome the nerves, but I do worry about games like last night. Maybe our inexperience of handling this kind of pressure will take its toll.

by nasisillmatic Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:46 am

You will always get games like last night when you are on a good run. The important thing is to win them no matter what.

Sunderland came to stop us scoring and it nearly worked. That's a game we'd have drew before this season. I'm happy that we faced adversity, and came through it with 3 points.

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